Woman accused of cutting unborn baby from mother will not face murder charges

[NaturalHigh]

DENVER (AP) — A Colorado woman accused of cutting the unborn baby from an expectant mother's belly will not face murder charges in the gruesome attack that revived the highly charged debate over when a fetus can legally be considered a human being.

Prosecutors did not explain the decision Thursday or reveal what charges will be filed in the attack that killed the unborn baby girl. The mother, who was about eight months pregnant, survived and left the hospital Wednesday.

Dynel Lane, 34, lured Michelle Wilkins, 26, to her home March 18 with an ad on Craigslist selling baby clothes, investigators say. Inside, Lane stabbed Wilkins and removed the child, police say.


Lane had told her family she was pregnant, and when her husband came home early from work to meet her for a prenatal appointment, he found the infant in a bathtub, authorities said. Lane said she had a miscarriage, and he took them to the hospital, where the baby was pronounced dead.


http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/usworld/prosecutors-woman-accused-of-cutting-unborn-baby-from-mother-will/article_7850b8ac-831b-5467-8300-13e5d58118b4.html

[PeaceNikki]

1. Good. Fetal homicide laws are bullshit.

That is an aggravated assault against the woman, not the fetus. It should not center on the fetus at all, which is part of the woman's body. A woman's pregnancy becomes part of HER identity and personhood while she's pregnant. Laws that bypass her and give any status or protection to the fetus regardless of gestation are harmful and discriminatory against women, and devalue women as persons.

[Dreamer Tatum]

3. I'm sure the woman called it her baby, not her fetus.

I'd err on the side of what her intentions and beliefs were, not anyone else's.

[PeaceNikki]

5. I'm sure she did. But I stand by every word I said. Every one.

[Dreamer Tatum]

6. Same here. I've yet to meet a pregnant woman who self-applied the word "fetus."

Her body, her choice. I defy you to find me one woman who, after having her baby cut from her womb against her will, would shrug her shoulders and say, "You damn sure can't call that murder!"

[PeaceNikki]

9. I get what you're saying, but fetal homicide laws are very very dangerous. And NEVER the answer.

In the U.S., pregnant women have been arrested even under fetal protection laws that exempt the pregnant woman herself from prosecution. That's because a law that recognizes fetal rights creates a confusing legal contradiction. If a fetus has the right not to be "murdered" in the womb by a third party, why doesn't it have the right not to be "murdered" by its own mother? In practice, these contradictory laws create a dangerous slippery slope towards criminalizing pregnant women for their behaviors while pregnant.

In Canada, the judicial system routinely takes aggravating circumstances into account. In the case of an assault or murder of a pregnant woman, even though a third party cannot be charged separately with harm to the fetus, prosecutors may recommend more serious charges, judges may impose harsher penalties and parole boards may deny parole to convicted perpetrators.

[Dreamer Tatum]

14. So if the baby is more than likely viable outside the womb

it STILL isn't murder?

Oy. Tough room.

[NaturalHigh]

15. Yeah - I'm sure the mother is not quite so dismissive of this crime.

[PeaceNikki]

17. Who's being dismissive? The DA? Voters in Colorado?

Me, for agreeing with them?

[PeaceNikki]

16. I am not the Boulder County DA. Did you read the article you linked in the OP?

The case renewed the nationwide debate over bringing murder charges in the violent deaths of unborn children.
Even though the baby girl died, legal experts say the case is complicated by the fact that Colorado is one of 12 states that do not have a fetal homicide law. State lawmakers in 2013 voted down such a measure over fears it would interfere with abortion rights, and voters overwhelmingly agreed when they rejected a similar ballot measure in 2014.

Colorado legislators did pass a measure that makes it a felony to violently cause the death of a mother's fetus. The maximum punishment under that provision is 32 years in prison, whereas a person convicted of homicide in Colorado could face the death penalty or life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Advocates say the attack shows the need for a fetal homicide law.

Legal experts say a person can still be charged with homicide for an unborn child's death under existing Colorado law if the baby was alive outside the mother's body and the act that led to the death also occurred there.

My input in this thread is to point out the slippery and very dangerous slope of fetal homicide laws. They are not the answer. Changing the law because of the horrific nature of this crime is not the answer.

[ND-Dem]

204. Abortion is legal in CO up to 26 weeks. That's less than 8 months, so I don't see any conflict

with state abortion law.

26 weeks = 6-6.5 months, depending on how you calculate (whether a month = 4 weeks or 4.3 weeks).

http://www.prochoicecolorado.org/in-our-state/current-laws.shtml

I call it murder when you cut an 8-month viable fetus from its mother's womb, killing it.

[Brickbat]

101. I did.

Because that's what they were.

[NM_Birder]

46. Devils advocate question.

imaginary woman is on way to hospital...... in labor, husband decides he doesn't want the responsibilities, punches her until she miscarriages and kills the "fetus".

murder, or simple assault ?

[PeaceNikki]

56. I'll answer your question

After I finish law school and become a DA.

[GCP]

239. That's a cop-out n/t

[PeaceNikki]

240. Your concern has been noted.

[yeoman6987]

186. I will go with you Nikki as longas she at least gets close

To the punishment as she would killing the mother. She should do some serious time either in a mental hospital or jail. I prefer mental hospital in this case. But I am only getting info provided by the media.

[PeaceNikki]

187. the DA says she's facing 100 years.

[yeoman6987]

190. Thanks Nikki!

And thank you for keeping this thread factual as it started to swerve a bit. Lol. But you leadership kept it controlled and legally accurate.

[Cali_Democrat]

32. Question:

Do you consider the fetus to be a human being?

[Dreamer Tatum]

45. I don't take purity tests. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

65. Your failure to answer a simple question indicates cowardice

What's the matter? Afraid you're gonna out yourself?

Well you already did.

[Dreamer Tatum]

68. That's why I don't take purity tests - I don't take well to bullies and intimidation.

If you read my words (and someone can probably help you if you need it), I clearly indicated a preference for a murder charge if the baby is viable outside the womb.

Satisfied, badass?

[Wella]

196. And you need to. None of us does.

This case is complicated issue. In addition, if, once taken from the womb, this little breathed, even once, we're talking about a live birth, hence a murder.

[Wella]

194. Why do you insist on running around trying to "out" people?

Usually, when someone is that vehement about outing others, they have a guilty secret. So what's yours?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

235. I'm wondering the same thing n/t

[ileus]

122. Why wouldn't he/she???

At 21 weeks many of us have names picked out. Painted the nursery. Spend hours a night reading to our future child... You don't do that with a tumor or 10 extra pounds of fat.

[NaturalHigh]

124. +1

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

130. Yeah, she's definitely not going to grieve for that clump of cells that was

cut out of her.

Well, maybe the "idea" of a future baby, but she had no real baby to grieve.


/sarcasm

[NaturalHigh]

214. Exactly. Reading some of these replies, one might think she had a tumor removed.

Who knows how long she had been trying to have a baby?

[Cali_Democrat]

128. So then by your logic, aborting a baby at 21 weeks is killing a human being. nt

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

132. Of course, it was a human being

It wasn't just a clump of cells with the potential to be a human at that stage.

Being able to admit that doesn't mean you can't support abortion.

The pregnant woman wanted that baby, and that baby (in the stage of humanity that we call a fetus), was wanted.

[nomorenomore08]

152. Fetuses at that stage are rarely if ever viable.

So I would tend not to view it as a distinct being separate from the woman's body.

Of course, few abortions would be necessary at that stage if "pro-life" legislators didn't keep throwing up roadblocks.

[ileus]

160. No...abortion is a choice. Cutting a "fetus" out of a wanting to be mother is murder.

hell some folks would argue that a child isn't really a human until it can say no...I couldn't care less about a choice, hell it saves the earth. Folks seeking abortions should get some kind of tax credit or carbon offset credits for their decision.

What we're talking about here are parents that want the heartbeat in the womb, not to be confused with folks that see a ruined future or worse.

[Wella]

192. Your "logic" is to force people into ideological corners

and then say they're not fitting in your little, parochial box.

[Wella]

191. I see you're back doing your thing

And antagonizing a nice person whose views are more nuanced than your own.

[NaturalHigh]

11. What do you think would be an appropriate charge for this woman?

[PeaceNikki]

12. I am not privy to all of the evidence, details and local laws. I am not an attorney or prosecutor.

[KamaAina]

44. Attempted murder (on the mother)

mayhem, aggravated assault.

[NaturalHigh]

50. She faces other charges too.

"Colorado legislators did pass a measure that makes it a felony to violently cause the death of a mother's fetus. The maximum punishment under that provision is 32 years in prison, whereas a person convicted of homicide in Colorado could face the death penalty or life in prison without the possibility of parole."

[nomorenomore08]

156. So tack on an extra 32 years to all the rest. She'll likely never leave prison.

Which is fine by me.

[NaturalHigh]

212. That's cool with me.

[Ed Suspicious]

201. +1

[snooper2]

22. I consider life to begin when the baby can survive outside the womb, 8 months

good chance that baby could have made it if a doctor had done it-

Lady who did the attack needs life in prison

[PeaceNikki]

23. That's your opinion and prerogative, but not the law. And shouldn't be.

[LiberalAndProud]

28. I do agree. I really do.

But it's hard to ignore the additional loss the woman is suffering because of this horrific attack and the unwanted termination of her pregnancy.

[PeaceNikki]

30. Agreed. It's a violent, horrific, unimaginable aggravated assault against her.

And should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and harshly punished.

But still not an argument for fetal homicide laws.

[LeftOfWest]

80. Agree with this post

and all of your posts in this thread.

Thanks PeaceNikki

Horrific crime no doubt. Fetal homicide laws are bs, completely agree.

[gollygee]

82. Absolutely agree

People don't realize where these laws end up, which is here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026370712

[LisaL]

106. "Fetus" was 8 months gestation.

[PeaceNikki]

108. Thanks, I can read.

[Logical]

175. Possibly not comprehend?? nt

[PeaceNikki]

176. Comprehend, what, Logical? What exactly do you think I don't 'get'?

Or were you just throwing a quick jab for fun?

[Logical]

178. I don't think this is going well for you. nt

[PeaceNikki]

179. lol, ok... eye of the beholder and all. So, it was really just a quick jab. Noice!!

Way to buuuuuuuuurn me, L!

ouch.

[Mariana]

136. Why put the word fetus in quotes?

If it's past the second month of gestation, and hasn't been born yet, it is a fetus, by definition.

[Number23]

120. How in the WORLD could you reach that conclusion?!! HOW???!

[Bradical79]

197. Basically...

Fetal homicide laws can be turned around and used against the pregnant woman to prevent her from getting an abortion in cases where it may be medically neccesary. Lots of dangerous things come with fetal homicide laws. As shown here, they shouldn't really even be neccesary as the end result should be pretty close when the charges are added up. Attempted murder, assault, and so on. I think someone mentioned the attacker is facing 100 years?

[Number23]

198. Yes, I think it is 100 years. A drop in the bucket for such a horrible crime

[lumberjack_jeff]

123. If the fetus never drew breath, I agree.

I can't reconcile the idea that if a doctor does it, it's a procedure, but if an assailant does it, it's murder.

The ethics of the entire issue are muddy, messy and full of gray areas. We can at least try to be logically consistent.

Therefore, I consider it an aggravated assault on the woman... A crime for which the assailant should rot in jail, like Scott Peterson, who is guilty of one murder.

[Travis_0004]

138. I disagree

Stabbing a non pregnant woman and stabbing a pregnant woman is very diferent.

Both are serious crimes but a woman loosing her baby will affect her as well the rest of her life and as such should be an additional punishment.

[lumberjack_jeff]

182. Why would being stabbed while non-pregnant not affect her for the rest of her life?

I might be convinced that her pregnancy could be considered an aggravating circumstance of the assault on her. I can't be convinced that it's a separate murder unless I believe that the fetus is a person - with a right to life that transcends anyone's rights to choice.

Before someone argues that I'm making a backhanded right to life appeal, I'm not. I am saying that there's a bright line here. Only people can be murdered; people who have rights that are bound to be respected.

[PeaceNikki]

183. Thank you.

[beam me up scottie]

147. Agree 100%

Knew you'd get shit for it, thanks for speaking up anyway.

[Jamastiene]

241. Those fetus laws make it so no one concentrates on justice for the woman who was

attacked. They only care about the fetus. Once the kid is born, though, they want it to start pulling itself up by its own bootstraps.

[el_bryanto]

2. She could face up to 32 years in prison. Very disturbing story. nt

[NaturalHigh]

34. If the maximum she can get in the case is 32 years...

then she should get 32 years.

[daleanime]

4. Of course it's attempted murder.....

when you cut some one open, it's kind of a given that your trying to kill them.

[LeftinOH]

7. At eight months, this was a child about to be born.

Technically a fetus, but... come on. This is a serious crime. Attempted murder and assault at least.

[NaturalHigh]

10. Agreed.

[seabeyond]

18. is it you that says you should be able to make a woman give birth if fetus is yours?

[NaturalHigh]

19. Really? What does that have to do with this conversation?

ETA:

[seabeyond]

20. i'm not surprised you are unable to recognize the relevance. a simple question. i could be wrong

[NaturalHigh]

29. No I don't see the relevance of your question.

[bettyellen]

111. Every woman on planet earth can see the relevance- and shudder at the

Thought of anyone advocating for forced birth.

[NaturalHigh]

114. Which I didn't do.

But then you already knew that.

[bettyellen]

155. Awesome- why don't you shoot me a link to this discussion so I can refresh my memory...

Because I seems to recall differently. Thanks!

[NaturalHigh]

213. You could start here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026423145

[bettyellen]

224. Wow, I guess you're none too proud of the conversation we're actually discussing if you

Need to pull a stunt like linking to this one.
I trust Seabeyond's memory, she is not one for silly games like this.

[NaturalHigh]

225. I told you that I never advocated for forced birth.

If you look through the replies at that link you'll see that I'm telling the truth.

If Seabeyond searches her memory she can tell you the same.

[bettyellen]

226. If you claim there's some confusion about an earlier conversation....

Surely you could point the way to THAT conversation for clarification. Seems like you'd rather not?

[NaturalHigh]

227. Now I just don't know what you're talking about.

You seem to be looking for a fight rather than an honest conversation. All I can say is that you can search every single post I've ever made and you won't find me advocating for forced birth. It's not on me to prove anything to you, and your opinion of me or what you seem to think I owe you is not my concern either.

Now goodbye.

[LeftinOH]

24. Um, what? The fetus/nearly born baby belonged to the mother

who was about to deliver it. She was assaulted; her pregnancy was terminated against her wishes (to say the least). It has nothing to do with me or with anyone else.

[LisaL]

110. Exactly.

WTF does it have to do with forcing somebody to have a child against their will?

[NaturalHigh]

117. It doesn't, and everybody here knows that.

[gollygee]

174. Fetal homicide laws are used by anti-abortion activists

to punish women who have abortions, and in some cases women who have miscarriages if they don't handle the miscarriages well.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-03-13/indiana-jury-says-purvi-patel-should-go-prison-what-she-says-was-miscarriage

These laws pass because people are angry about the death of the fetus and want a greater crime than just the crime against the mother, and if it were some kind of aggravated assault on the mother charge or something I think everyone would be fine with it, but anti-abortion activists use these laws as a way to erode abortion rights even if most of the people who support these laws don't intend for that.

[geek tragedy]

8. at 8 months, the fetus is viable. I would lean towards murder in this case. nt

[packman]

13. A horrible crime beyond all bounds of violence

but, I am counting the minutes that an anti-abortionist, right-wing asshat will make the comparison to this and partial-birth pro-life issues. I just know that it will be said.

[fizzgig]

21. they've released the initial autopsy report and the baby didn't show signs of life outside the womb

BOULDER - The Boulder County Coroner's Office completed the initial autopsy on the baby that was cut from Michelle Wilkin's womb Wednesday.

According to the coroner, neither the autopsy or the investigation provided any evidence the baby exhibited any signs of life outside the womb, therefore it is not considered a live birth.

No evidence of trauma or injuries were found on the baby's body.

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2015/03/27/longmont-baby-signs-of-life/70545150/

[tammywammy]

25. Such a sad situation all around.

[fizzgig]

27. it really is

just heartbreaking.

[NaturalHigh]

26. Just a guess...

the trauma from being ripped from its mother's womb probably had something to do with that.

[fizzgig]

31. i'm not saying you're right or wrong

but i suspected this is what the autopsy had shown when they said there won't be murder charges.

[NaturalHigh]

33. I'm sure that's right.

In this case it would be hard to get around that no matter how monstrous the crime was.

[JustAnotherGen]

40. That woman will probably never be able to have another child again

Not naturally. That's heartbreaking to me - that a young woman - as young as she is - will probably be in the locked out of motherhood club for the rest of her life.

My heart breaks for her.

[NaturalHigh]

42. Unfortunately I'm sure that's true.

I can't imagine her mental and emotional trauma.

[JustAnotherGen]

43. If you have a little to give

She has a gofundme my husband found:

http://www.gofundme.com/michelle-wilkins

Even if just uses it to take a trip somewhere warm - it's all we can do I suppose.

[NaturalHigh]

49. Thanks - I didn't know that.

[countryjake]

116. Anti-abortion activists are trying to use this attempted-murder victim...

to make a sick and twisted point. That Michelle Wilkins was left with her belly cut wide open, bleeding to death in her attacker's home, appears to be only a secondary concern when it comes to the rights of the baby that she's lost.

Victim's family refuses Klingenschmitt's money March 27, 2015

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/politics/2015/03/27/victims-family-refuses-klingenschmitts-money/70547236/

DENVER - The family of the pregnant Longmont woman who was brutally attacked is rejecting a donation from Colorado state Rep. Gordon Klingenschmitt (R-Colorado Springs,) who said the incident amounted to punishment from God for laws allowing abortion.

When confronted about his controversial remarks, Klingenschmitt pointed out Thursday that his charity made a $1,000 donation to the family of Michelle Wilkins.

"My charity has donated $1,000 to the Wilkins family," Klingenschmitt said on Thursday afternoon. "To help them in their healing, to help them recover. I have challenged all the members of the legislature to join me in donating not $1,000, like my charity did, but just $5 to stand in solidarity."

A Wilkins family member contacted 9Wants to Know on Friday to tell us that they had refunded the donation.

The family posted a note on its fundraising website.


Rep. Gordon Klingenschmitt (R-Colorado Springs)(Photo: KUSA)

[JustAnotherGen]

126. My husband ran across the give back

On her go fund me - so he gave it back to her anonymously. Good for her. I'm just glad we could help with her medical bills.

[JustAnotherGen]

127. I have a glimmer - but not in this way.

I think past three months - you get really attached. Like - thets a real person. In your heart.

[bettyellen]

220. Not for everyone though.

[JustAnotherGen]

228. Maybe

Those people are probably on an adoption track. When you are going to Craigslist for baby clothes - that's your heart. And when you aren't even aware that your baby isn't with you (as the police reports stated) - that's your heart.

I'll never believe Michelle didn't want that baby or that her pain isn't real and she is missing her "baby". Wasn't just tissue to her at that point. I'll never believe that.

[bettyellen]

229. Sure this pregnant woman was enthusiastic but hate to hear people extrapolate that for all women

Hate to say it, but a lot of some are terrified of their unplanned pregnancies. Abortion is a valid choice for them. Has little to do with this incident, just that people make assumptions about how most women feel about it.

[JustAnotherGen]

230. I don't disagree with you

I don't know if this was an unplanned pregnancy.

It's none of our business.

We women - have different life experiences. We bring our stories and the stories of our mothers, aunts, grandmothers, sisters, friends, etc etc to the table.

Should people who use this as an excuse to push an anti abortion agenda be ashamed of themselves? I think so.

But the Pro Choice folks shouldn't diminish this incident for fear that an almost 8 months pregant woman with a twinkle in her eye having another woman lure her to her home and cut her child out of her body, put it in her bath tub, dump the woman she has attempted to murder, then lie to her partner about a miscarriage (why would anyone lie about that - btdt a few times and in cases where you want that baby it's heart breaking) - is going to turn pro choice people against the cause.

I would never want any woman to have her choice taken away from her.

This woman took another woman's choice away from her.

She's not one of the girls. She's no different than a man slipping his girlfriend a spontaneous abortion causing substance. It's the same felony in Colorado: Unwanted Termination of Pregnancy.

[bettyellen]

232. Discussing the laws used against women is an important thing - and really has nothing to do with

Diminishing the crime. Apparently a lot of DUers are still not educated about how these laws are applied, and that they are other laws that can punish this sort of attack without resorting to laws used to treat women as chattel.

[PeaceNikki]

233. No one is diminishing or dismissing this incident. Half of the article linked in the OP is about

how this is a springboard for anti-choicers to relaunch efforts for fetal homicide laws. THEY are using this incident. We are trying to put it into actual perspective and insist that fetal homicide laws are not needed to properly punish this monster for her horrific crimes. We are standing up and trying to point out that emotions are very high when something so heinous happens that we cannot and should not make rash decisions which would have a devastating impact on the future of abortion access. We are not afraid this incident will turn pro-choice people against the cause. We are in tune to the reality that the anti-choicers are, in fact, in the middle of a calculated and real war on reproductive choice.



https://guttmacher.org/media/inthenews/2015/01/05/index.html

The DA made the right call with the charges. This monster will die in prison without fetal homicide laws. As well she should.

It's not dismissive to defend against the efforts to use this incident to further their cause. Nobody here has tried to do that.

Peace.

[JustAnotherGen]

236. And attempted murder

[Number23]

121. My heart breaks for her AND that baby that was literally torn from her womb

At eight months, she probably had her entire house ready or close to it for the arrival of her new child.

This is why I stay the fuck out of so many threads regarding our issues here.

[JustAnotherGen]

125. Yeah Number23

And I think you have some knowledge of my challenges.

Miscarriage hurts the soul at five months.

I can't imagine this at close to 8 months. . Poor little kid.

[Number23]

129. Yes, I do darling.

And while I am totally sympathetic and in 100% agreement that women's rights and our abilities to control our own bodies are paramount, for the LIFE of me I have no idea how anyone could feel that it's appropriate to bring that up in light of what's happened to that woman and her child.

What about HER rights? And HER right to bring forth her wanted child into this world? And that child's right to live with a family who wanted her/him?

I can't in this thread. I'm done.

[PeaceNikki]

131. The article linked in the OP brought up fetal homicide laws.

Because people, even in this thread, are using this case to argue for them.

And they are used to prosecute women and restrict abortion.

How is that so hard to understand?

[Number23]

139. Fetal homicide laws are being brought up because a baby was killed

How is THAT hard to understand?

[PeaceNikki]

140. Fetus. Did I express confusion about a matter? I was replying to someone who had.

I fully understand that anti-choicers jump on each and every single opportunity to further restrict access to abortions. I get that.

And any and every time I can voice my concern and express my passion for protection of women's rights, I will.

[Number23]

142. I was talking to someone else and you jumped in. The confusion seems to be yours and yours alone

As for your bit about anti-choicers, it appears that you are STILL confused so I'm going to let you alone until you figure yourself out.

[PeaceNikki]

143. This is a discussion board. I will 'jump in' anywhere I like without running it past you.

[Number23]

146. Cool. But make sure you at least know who/what the fuck you're talking about when you do so

[PeaceNikki]

148. Why are you being so nasty?

[Number23]

153. So you're just an innocent lamb, and didn't start all of this off with your "wha's so hard to

understand??11!" stuff?

[PeaceNikki]

162. I was replying to the statement "...for the LIFE of me I have no idea how anyone...

could feel that it's appropriate to bring that up in light of what's happened to that woman and her child. "

[Number23]

167. That wasn't at all what I was referring to. But your comments are so agressive and ignorant

in this thread I'd rather discuss this issue with Ted Cruz than you. So it's fine with me if you have that misconception.

[PeaceNikki]

169. wow.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6425784

[bettyellen]

141. There are more appropriate charges- unwanted termination of pregnancy that do not turn

Pregnant women into felons for having an abortion.

[Number23]

144. That is not in any way applicable to this case. What the fuck are you guys trying to do in this

thread?

Do you really think I need to be "schooled" on this?

[PeaceNikki]

145. Discuss. It's a discussion board.

[Number23]

149. There's nothing to discuss. So let's just leave it at that because I am truly starting to get pissed

off

[PeaceNikki]

150. Again, why are you being so nasty? If you can't control yourself, step away.

[Number23]

154. You've got more posts in this thread than anyone. If ANYBODY needs to back off

it's you.

[PeaceNikki]

157. No, thank you.

[bettyellen]

151. I'm sorry! Not sure if we' we ever discussed the issue...

But it is an important to me. So many laws are being used these days that treat women like a fucking incubator, instead of a human being- it is an extremely messed up situation when we jail women for not being 100% perfect during their pregnancy, or falling down stairs and shit.
It's a critical issue.

[Number23]

158. It should be important to everyone

But the "must educate" tone you guys are taking, especially with me, is completely unnecessary. I'm done here.

[PeaceNikki]

159. kthxbai

[Number23]

165. Is it okay with you if the people I am actually TALKING to respond to my posts?

I mean, given how you're acting, it's no wonder this is the only way you can get anyone to respond to you. But it makes you look like you have issues.

[PeaceNikki]

168. Again, why are you being so nasty? I have not been. I am passionate about women's rights

I have not gotten personal. I have not attacked. I asked "why is that so hard to understand" because I truly don't get how it's hard to understand when the topic was brought up IN the article linked in the OP. I apologize if you took that as an attack. It was not meant to be one.

Relax.

[Number23]

170. You are being nasty and obnoxious as hell and got the nerve to wonder why you're being called out

on it? "Relax." Yeah okay.

Moving on.

[PeaceNikki]

171. wow. miss you already!!

[Number23]

172. Your earlier "apology" feels as genuine as your "passion" and "commitment" for women's rights

[PeaceNikki]

173. bye!!!

[Number23]

177. With the UTMOST pleasure!

(that's a goodbye and sure as shit not a hello wave)

[countryjake]

185. Okay, I'm jumping in here, too. Yes, lots of us have issues...

that directly relate to the use of Fetal Homicide Laws in attacking, prosecuting, and ruining the lives of so many totally innocent women.

Right now, as we discuss this here, the state of Colorado is preparing a bill that would facilitate their legislature's ability to go after any person who, in their minds, abused their pregnant condition in a way that might result in a miscarriage or abortion.

Republicans plan to file fetal homicide bill 3:15 p.m. MDT March 27, 2015

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2015/03/27/republicans-plan-to-file-fetal-homicide-bill/70562458/

DENVER - Colorado Republican lawmakers upset about a decision not to file a murder charge in an attack on a pregnant woman plan to introduce a fetal homicide bill.

Senate President Bill Cadman announced Friday that legislation to extend legal protections to unborn children is being drafted.

The announcement came after prosecutors said they will not file murder charges against 34-year-old Dynel Lane after she allegedly cut open a pregnant woman's belly and took her baby.

The coroner found no evidence that the baby showed signs of life outside the womb.

Under Colorado law, a person can be charged with murdering a baby only if there's evidence the baby survived apart from its mother.

Some of us here have already been taken to task for the miscarriages we've had and laws that could enable prosecution for such a sad, natural occurence in a woman's reproductive life are despicable, in my opinion.

I apologize for "jumping" in here, and I would never have done so, til you implied that PeaceNikki is guilty of having issues. I think that we all should have issues with any attempt to pass or uphold Feticide Laws in any state.

[Number23]

188. The issues are not with her feelings about this subject but with the way she is running up and down

this thread like a jack terrier attacking any and everyone that even so much as asks a damn question.

When I mentioned before that I couldn't understand why someone would say such a thing in a thread like this it's the obvious relief that she felt that this woman would not be charged with homicide because "fetal homicide laws suck." THAT is what I took issue with. And she couldn't even be bothered to ask me what I was talking about before jumping down my throat like she'd lost her ever loving mind. I don't respond well to that type of behavior.

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. I understand the issue entirely and agree 100% with your position on the slippery slope that fetal homicide laws provide and how conservatives are waiting like salivating dogs to ride that slippery slope all the way to the repeal of abortion rights in this country. But I do think this woman should have been charged with some form of homicide for what she did to that woman and her child, and the unwanted pregnancy termination she's been charged with goes a long way towards that.

Truth is, I probably agree 90% with PeaceNikki as well but if she thinks that it's okay to speak to another woman about an issue that affects ALL of us that way, it's probably a very good thing that she put me on ignore. And I hope I stay there.

[PeaceNikki]

189. I did not attack. Ever. You have repeatedly.

Did i get "obnoxious"? Maybe, but that's in the eye of the beholder, I guess. And I never attacked your intelligence, belief system, behavior or person.

I sincerely apologized if it felt that way. I explained why I felt "relief" over the lack of murder charges: because of the fact that fetal homicide laws are meant to be and are used to restrict access to abortion.

I am incredibly passionate about the topic, review my journal if you doubt me. We all have issues which are important to us, this is mine.

I didn't put you on ignore. I don't use it.

I really don't understand why you got so nasty and personal with me. But, whatever. We all have moments. I am a grown up and can and will move on.

Have a good night.

[countryjake]

202. That's what I call a failure to communicate...

something that happens quite a lot in threads like this. And why I seldom bother to add anything to such DU discussions anymore...back in the day, there weren't nearly so many covert anti-abortion advocates disrupting, taking down names (and stories), and generally bringing unnecessary aggravation into threads on Women's Rights. Finding common cause and making peace with those who are basically on the correct side of things grows more important by the year, as the right-wingnuts attempt to bolster and build on their despicable attack on us all.

Many years ago, I had a health department official and sheriff show up at my door, my medical records were pried open, pregnancy questioned, and the county coroner even jumped in...unbelievable invasion of my own personal tragedy. All because I'd buried my almost-four-month gestation loss of a little boy in a wool sock under a rock in my yard, a little more than three-inch fetus that my own doctor had advised me to flush down the toilet. There are people in our government who are literally drooling at the thought of being able to do this to every woman who ever became pregnant (ie. opening of past medical records via Patriot Act), monitoring all pregnancies, and controlling women's bodies, absolutely.

I am also glad (and satisfied) that the charge of unwanted pregnancy termination has been brought against that brute of a woman. My heart has ached for Michelle Wilkins ever since the news broke of what she's suffered and I was glad to see that gofundme page that JustAnotherGen posted the link for, especially the tremendous response that it's received. So many of us know the pain of losing little ones, naturally, but I think that what that family must be going thru is truly unimaginable.

[Number23]

206. There's no doubt that you and I are definitely on the same page

As I noted above, I usually stay out of these sort of threads for the same reason you noted. The only recent exception was that I posted a bit in the Femen threads a year or so ago. I have for years stayed out of these discussions and I should have continued to do so.

I was glad to see that the woman would be charged in some way for the end of that child's life. I just couldn't understand how anyone could feel relief that she wouldn't be charged with homicide, even if it was of a fetus. But that is because I see this particular issue as completely separate from abortion, but I also understand that the right wing does not and won't hesitate to use any leverage to undermine abortion rights. I hope that this woman is able to find some peace and happiness after all of this, though I suspect that it will be a very long time in the coming if ever.

What happened to you was as criminal as it was amoral. Will be great to live in a day when the law sees it as such as well.

[JustAnotherGen]

215. I fully understand your heartache

There is such an extreme disconnect between the Medical and Legal communities on these issues.

Your physician "shrugged shoulders" - the Law - without any regard for what I know first hand - the shrugged shoulders and how much it bites at you -

Made a legal issue out of personal loss and pain.

I like the Unwanted Termination of Pregnancy laws. I think the DA got it right with that - and it opens the door for women to fight back against a harsh medical community that treats us like FSH, motility, eggs, embryos, etc etc. There's a woman in my fertility group who her second transfer had a non viable pregnancy that she carried to term. The ART facility refused to work with her after that because it hurt their numbers.

Her choice - her husband's choice to give those organs that were viable to a human being who needed them.

[beam me up scottie]

163. It's not that hard to understand.

Not to anyone who's well informed about women's rights issues and gives half a shit about us.

Part-time feminists suck.

[Oktober]

35. Child was viable... That was murder...

One murder and one attempted murder...

Death penalty is appropriate...

[trumad]

37. Death Penalty is appropriate?

No it's not---

[Oktober]

38. I disagree...

It's just as bad as if this woman stabbed a child in it's crib but with the added crime of attempting to murder the mother...

There's no coming back from that and there shouldn't be...

[trumad]

39. Well you are for the death penalty.

I'm against it because it's not accurate. Many have been exonerated who were given the DP.

[Oktober]

47. Is there any chance that this woman is not the one who killed the child...

... and attempted to kill the mother?

[trumad]

52. You can't pick and choose for the DP...

You either have it or you don't.

I'm certain that those who put innocent people on death row thought they were guilty as well.

[Oktober]

99. Fair enough...

I'm certain that society will be better off if this woman is dead....

[countryjake]

118. Oh cool! Equating a breathing living woman to a "crib"...

How kind of you to note your added concern of the attempted murder of Michelle Wilkins.

[nomorenomore08]

161. They probably didn't realize the implication of what they said. But I hope they do now. n/t

[Oktober]

216. Not really...

[stone space]

59. Of course it is murder, but so is capital punishment.

Death penalty is appropriate...

One murder does not justify a second murder.

[NCTraveler]

36. I think our whole thoughts on justice and penalties needs to be rethought.

That being said, I don't see how these actions aren't worse than murder. They should be treated as such. Why must we think the current laws on the books is all there are. Legislatures can enact new laws and that is what needs to happen for situations like this. I know that would have no consequence on this case. Moving forward I see an easy ways to make laws pertaining to this case, where the penalty would be similar to that of murder if not worse, and the fetus would never be recognized as a person.

[trumad]

41. Slippery slope.

[NCTraveler]

48. Many things can be a slippery slope.

I do get your point there. I think the grade of that slope diminishes as long as the proper victim is recognized in the legislation. The anti-choicers want to recognize the fetus as a victim. I think the victim here is clear. If the victim is the mother, I think it somewhat negates the slippery slope. Just some thoughts Trumad. I think there is a way it can be done. I think new laws do need to be enacted in this area. Laws that recognize the true victim. There are laws that will be used against the assailant. They are laws to address most of the crime but not the heinous intent of the crime. Right now, the heinousness of the crime will not be taken directly into account on its own. It will be taken into account at sentencing if found guilty under current laws.

Murder would not be applicable in my opinion because there was no victim or murder. There is a victim here and their grievances go way past attempted murder, assault, or any such current law.

The rights of women can't be minimized due to our fear of the trend of rolling back our current rights. We have the right to carry to term. No laws currently on the books rise to the occasion in this instance. This woman losing her fetus will not be directly recognized under current law. She will always be the victim of a crime where the assailant was not charged with the most egregious part of the act. That part also being the whole intent behind the heinous act.

[rebecca_herman]

209. she is being charged with unwanted termination of pregnancy

she can get another 32 years (maximum sentence) added to her sentence for that charge on top of whatever she gets for assault and attempted murder.

[lumberjack_jeff]

211. I am glad to hear this. n/t

[NCTraveler]

219. Thank you for replying.

Educational and something I wasn't aware of. I appreciate you passing this along.

[B2G]

51. Bitch should rot in prison. nt

[NaturalHigh]

53. I agree - she shouldn't see the outside again.

[woodsprite]

54. After chance of viability (21 wks?) outside the womb, I think it should be considered murder.

If you want to put it at chance of viability without extreme medical intervention, 7.5 months should do it.

[NaturalHigh]

55. So do I.

[PeaceNikki]

58. No way. those ridiculous laws are used against women.

[woodsprite]

60. There's a huge difference between a natural occuring miscarriage and having a baby

cut out of you by a non-licensed person, under no anesthetic, being left to die, all with the intent to steal the baby.

It's an injustice to the parents not to consider it murder. They've been feeling the baby move, making plans for its life, etc. I'm not a pro-life advocate, but if it were my baby I would definitely want that person charged with murder for the life that was lost.

[PeaceNikki]

61. Not to anti choicers, there's not.

[NaturalHigh]

70. That's really not the point though.

I think the idea that she shouldn't be prosecuted for the crime against this woman's fetus is ridiculous.

[PeaceNikki]

83. yes. it is. women's reproductive rights are under full scale assault.

[NaturalHigh]

84. Well, nothing says assault like having your belly ripped open and your fetus stolen.

Although I think she probably thought of it as a baby and not a fetus at this point.

[PeaceNikki]

86. it's an aggravated assault against her and should be treated as such.

[NaturalHigh]

87. No crime concerning the fetus, eh?

Sorry to disappoint you, but the state is likely to charge her with a crime against the fetus that carries up to 32 years in prison. Too lenient for her in my opinion.

[PeaceNikki]

88. Why do you act like I think this was not an egregious crime?

You're very confused.

[NaturalHigh]

92. It just seems to me that you're being very dismissive...

because you think any law concerning a fetus, even a fully viable one like this, is a "slippery slope."

[PeaceNikki]

93. Because it is a slippery slope. It's not dismissive, it's a fact.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6423677

And

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6423223

[NaturalHigh]

94. Okay. I guess this will be one of this "agree to disagree" things.

[gollygee]

97. This is where these laws lead

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-03-13/indiana-jury-says-purvi-patel-should-go-prison-what-she-says-was-miscarriage

[nomorenomore08]

166. But it's still not a murder charge. The distinction is important, especially in today's political

climate RE: reproductive rights.

[Warren Stupidity]

107. It absolutely is the point.

The fetus has no rights as a person. If it does you have opened the door to abolition of all abortion rights. The charges of assault and attempted murder against the actual person, not the theoretical person are appropriate.

[nomorenomore08]

164. You and I know there's a huge difference. But we're also sane, rational people.

Many people in power these days, frighteningly, are not. Some would no doubt love to prosecute women for miscarriages, if they had any excuse under the law for doing so.

[Logical]

180. FFS, are you saying if someone stabbed a mother in the abdomen at 8 months and killed....

the baby you would not support a charge of murder???

Wow, how kind of you!

[PeaceNikki]

181. I support the everything the DA charged her with. I support aggravated assault/attempted murder

charges against the women. I do not and will never support fetal homicide or personhood laws.

It's a violent, horrific, unimaginable aggravated assault against her. And should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and harshly punished.

But still not an argument for fetal homicide laws which are used to restrict abortion.

In the U.S., pregnant women have been arrested even under fetal protection laws that exempt the pregnant woman herself from prosecution. That's because a law that recognizes fetal rights creates a confusing legal contradiction. If a fetus has the right not to be "murdered" in the womb by a third party, why doesn't it have the right not to be "murdered" by its own mother? In practice, these contradictory laws create a dangerous slippery slope towards criminalizing pregnant women for their behaviors while pregnant.

In Canada, the judicial system routinely takes aggravating circumstances into account. In the case of an assault or murder of a pregnant woman, even though a third party cannot be charged separately with harm to the fetus, prosecutors may recommend more serious charges, judges may impose harsher penalties and parole boards may deny parole to convicted perpetrators.

[Orrex]

193. IMHO you stated that very well (nt)

[PeaceNikki]

195. Thank you, Orrex. There's been some confusion on this thread about my feelings and I think I've made

them pretty clear.

[handmade34]

199. good job

standing against fetal homicide laws… it is a scary road to travel that can cause women great harm…

I believe women should have complete control of their body… period!

this crime is horrendous but should not be a stepping stone for anti-women, anti-abortion people to use

[PeaceNikki]

200. thank you.

[NaturalHigh]

218. "I believe women should have complete control of their body"...

Well, this woman's body was grotesquely violated, and I imagine she is pretty devastated about losing the "fetus" that so many here are so dismissive of.

[Orrex]

57. But if the victim had instead miscarried in some parts of the US...

[JustAnotherGen]

64. They would have thrown her in jail

We are really fucked up aren't we Orrex.

[NaturalHigh]

67. Surely we could all agree on a place between two extremes.

It's ridiculous to say that a woman who has a late term miscarriage should go to jail, but it's equally ridiculous to say that a woman who rips a viable fetus from another woman isn't guilty of a pretty horrendous crime.

[Orrex]

72. In the current case, a charge of attempted 1st degree murder seems appropriate

[NaturalHigh]

75. I agree with that, but I also agree with the Colorado fetus law...

under which she is being charged.

[ChazII]

105. +1

Posting an advertisement is Craig's list seems to indicate premeditated murder as a possible charge to me.

[JustAnotherGen]

63. News conference late this afternoon but from last week . . .

In a news conference last week, Garnett said that if Lane was not charged with murder she could face a count related to the unwanted termination of a pregnancy, a class three felony, in the fetus' death.

"It's really important that we get it right and that we analyze both the legal aspects -- which are complicated -- and also the factual scenario," Garnett said then.

"Under Colorado law, essentially, there is no way murder charges can be brought if it's not established that the fetus lived as a child outside the body of the mother," he said.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27794952/boulder-da-says-no-murder-charges-be-filed

Garnett is the D.A.

Okay - so they established the girl did not live outside the body of the mother. I can accept that. But it's not over until its over.

I'm very interested in the unwanted termination of a pregnancy and it being a class three felony. I hope to see her charged with that. It's not perfect for the pro life crowd - but it addresses how horrific what she did was to Michelle and her Aurora (what she was going to name her).

Press Conference is supposed to happen late Mountain time today.

Also - it looks like they are investigating (again) the 2002 death of Dynel's son - he was a toddler that drowned in her care. She gave him cpr until medical assistance arrived.

This isn't just going to go away.

[NaturalHigh]

66. "This isn't just going to go away."

Good to know.

[LittleBlue]

69. She should spend life in prison

Imagine having to feel abdominal surgery without anesthesia. That fetus was 8 months along, it was viable ffs. She pulled a Josef Mengele on that poor woman.

She should have been charged with murder, if nothing else to ensure she never again is set loose on society.

[NaturalHigh]

71. Absolutely.

[JustAnotherGen]

73. Can't be in Colorado

We have to wait and see what she CAN be charged with. When they determined Aurora was dead prior to being outside of the womb - that option went away.

I bet - they go after Unwanted Termination of Pregnancy - that's a felony in Colorado.

[JustAnotherGen]

78. No - it's not a law in Colorado

You can't do that.

Aurora was never alive outside of her mother's body.

[LittleBlue]

79. I know why it can't happen

But the idea that this person could be released after a maximum of 32 years is shocking. She won't even be that old and she'll be free to move into neighborhoods with pregnant women again.

There were Nazis and Japanese war criminals who were executed for crimes like this, sort of like vivisection. That woman lived but her life is ruined.

[JustAnotherGen]

81. I know

And Michelle is very young to have lost her ability to have children.

I can't imagine she can carry a child again.

Perhaps they WERE able to help her - and it's none of my business what the end result is - and if it's a bad one that's a pain only a very narrow group of women in this world can understand.

It's just heart breaking to me that a 26 year old has to go through this. Not just the violent act - but the aftermath.

I can't imagine.

[Nye Bevan]

74. OK. How about we don't call it "murder", we call it "unlawful fetal homicide" or whatever,

but make the penalty the same as for murder? I would be fine with the perpetrator of this crime doing life without parole.

[NaturalHigh]

76. I'm cool with that.

[JustAnotherGen]

77. There are a few states that don't have fetal homicide laws

And the people of Colorado voted a few years ago to not implement that.

But what she could be charged with is a class 3 felony which as a little research in Colorado would get her 4-12 years.

I'm going to also assume attempted homicide against Michelle? Assault with a deadly weapon?

The people of Colorado spoke at the ballot box and we have to accept their will on this.

[PeaceNikki]

85. how about, hell no.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6423223

[Nye Bevan]

89. OK, let's call carving a viable fetus out of a pregnant woman an "aggravating circumstance",

as Canada does, and have life without parole be the enhanced penalty for this particular "aggravating circumstance". Cool?

[PeaceNikki]

90. it's awful.

And if such a law existed, I would probably be cool with it.

But the article I'm the op and seemingly some posters in the thread are taking about fetal homicide laws which have been used against women. I have a problem with those.

[NaturalHigh]

91. Great idea.

Regardless of how it's done, I would prefer that this woman never get out of prison.

[PeaceNikki]

95. See, the 'regardless of how it's done' is the slippery slope.

You seem to be OK with other women being prosecuted for terminating pregnancies through medical abortions... As long as this asshole rots in prison?

Not me.

[NaturalHigh]

96. I said absolutely nothing like that.

[PeaceNikki]

98. Do you support fetal homicide laws?

[NaturalHigh]

100. In some cases, yes.

[PeaceNikki]

102. Awful. And dismissive of women.

And reality of how they are used against them.

[LisaL]

112. So you think it's okey to cut out fetuses out of women who don't want an abortion?

How does that make any sense?

[PeaceNikki]

113. where the fuck did I say that?

This is what I said
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6423677

[Warren Stupidity]

119. No that would be assault and attempted or actual murder.

Of the woman.

[NaturalHigh]

115. Sorry you feel that way.

[Warren Stupidity]

109. seriously.

[Telcontar]

103. Utter bullshit

In this case, it clearly is murder. I'm not going to debte abortion rights, they're irrelevant. The mother clearly wanted this child and was taken from her.

Murder. No doubts.

[NaturalHigh]

104. Thank you.

I don't really see how this is a tough call.

[A Little Weird]

184. Abortion rights are not irrelevant

The charge should be attempted murder of the mother and aggravated assault.

[Telcontar]

207. It was not an abortion

On this, we shall not reach

[A Little Weird]

208. No it was not

It was also not murder. It was a heinous act no doubt about it. The charges of first degree attempted murder, assault, and unwanted termination of a pregnancy are appropriate. Fetal homicide laws are right-wing tools that are being used to try to make abortion illegal, that's why it is relevant.

[JustAnotherGen]

133. Charges are in!

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2015/03/27/longmont-baby-signs-of-life/70545150/

First degree attempted murder and unwanted termination of pregancy - plus two assault charges.

They threw everything they could at her.

[PeaceNikki]

134. And I hope she's convicted on all counts and serves the maximum sentence.

[JustAnotherGen]

135. Me too!

Up thread I had a little side bar w/Number 23. Taking a baby from a woman's womb against her will - Ms. Lane ought to be ashamed of herself. 80 years ago people were doing that to women that look like her and me for sport. She's disgusting and the unwanted termination is a win. Reproductive Rights also mean the right to have a child, to not be sterilized against your will, etc etc.

[PeaceNikki]

137. Amen.

[ND-Dem]

203. It was an 8 mo baby cut from the mother's womb and it's not murder? You can't get an

abortion at 8 months in most cases, and a child born premature at 8 months will usually live, but if you take a knife and cut it from the mother's womb, killing it, it's not murder?

It ought to be *something*.

[NaturalHigh]

217. "It ought to be *something*."

Agreed. Anyone saying this is only a crime against the mother is just wrong.

[Lancero]

205. Cases like this are a Republicans wet dream...

Because they know they can easily spin it to get fetal homicide laws, and as this topic shows they'd get quite a bit of democrat support.

FH laws are good in theory, though in practice they are frequently used to restrict womens rights.

[bettyellen]

221. Yep, lotsa good Dems are uneducated about the attacks on women's autonomy....

[davidpdx]

222. I feel conflicted about this one

The woman who did this obviously planned it. She should face attempted murder for what she did to the mother. In general I don't agree with the infanticide laws because they can be applied to stop abortions. It will be interesting to see the outcome.

[NaturalHigh]

223. Believe me, I do understand the conflict.

This case is so over the top, though. I think it's pretty obvious that all of the principles involved considered this "fetus" a baby.

Fetal homicide or not, I hope she spends the rest of her life in prison.

[JustAnotherGen]

231. She IS facing attempted murder

[SickOfTheOnePct]

234. I think the charges they filed are good

Attempted murder with regard to the mother, unlawful termination with regard to the baby.

[NaturalHigh]

238. I just hope she gets a long sentence.

Frankly I think she will always be a dangerous person outside of prison.

[B Calm]

237. Life begins at first breath, that's why we call it birthdays. This woman attempted to kill the

mother of the unborn child.