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Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 12:16 PM Mar 2015

Residents upset with greedy elites burned the city down

The ancient city of Teotihuacan, which is located about 30 miles (50 km) northeast of Mexico city, once supported an estimated population of 100,000 – 200,000 people, who raised giant monuments such as the Temple of Quetzalcoatl and the Pyramids of the Sun and the Moon. However, much about Teotihuacan remains unknown, including the origin and language of the people who lived there, as they did not leave behind any written records.

“No traces of foreign invasion are visible at the site,” wrote Linda R. Manzanilla in her 2014 study of what happened at Teotihuacan, a city of great architecture that had 125,000 to 200,000 residents at its peak. “We interpret this event as a revolt against the ruling elite, perhaps a response to a late intervention on the part of the state to control the entrepreneurial movements of the intermediate elite.”

The major ritual and administrative buildings along the Street of the Dead were set on fire in A.D. 550, and the sculptures inside palatial structures, such as Xalla, were shattered.






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- See more at: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/residents-upset-greedy-elites-burned-teotihuacan-002789#sthash.N9avh0IX.dpuf

18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Residents upset with greedy elites burned the city down (Original Post) Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 OP
kr for the object lesson ND-Dem Mar 2015 #1
France, too. riqster Mar 2015 #2
cross posted in anthropology news forum Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #3
I certainly did. riqster Mar 2015 #4
seems awfully speculative, but obviously I haven't read the whole paper geek tragedy Mar 2015 #5
We did a tour of a Mexican community that still had the Baitball Blogger Mar 2015 #6
gated communities with guards Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #7
Good observation. Baitball Blogger Mar 2015 #8
And lackeys in the media and religion, too! The Green Manalishi Mar 2015 #10
Maybe ISIS did it... McCamy Taylor Mar 2015 #9
Any minute now ISIS will tweet a few words laying claim.....and the media will believe them. Fred Sanders Mar 2015 #12
Homeland Secrrity Geronimoe Mar 2015 #11
Occupy Teotihuacan? Helen Borg Mar 2015 #13
A city of 200,000 without a single decent pizza parlor. tclambert Mar 2015 #14
Sounds like someone is reading to much Marx. happyslug Mar 2015 #15
nice analysis Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #16
The problem with the ruling elites, is they can NOT see how they are in danger, happyslug Mar 2015 #17
another must read Ichingcarpenter Mar 2015 #18

riqster

(13,986 posts)
2. France, too.
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 12:30 PM
Mar 2015

The Protestant reformation there included the nobility and shopkeepers. When they were "dealt with", it increased the suffering of the people.

And we know how that turned out.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
5. seems awfully speculative, but obviously I haven't read the whole paper
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 12:43 PM
Mar 2015

The article doesn't state what the support was for finding class revolt as opposed to something like the Mayan civilization, which collapsed due to a crash in food production.

Baitball Blogger

(46,725 posts)
6. We did a tour of a Mexican community that still had the
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 12:43 PM
Mar 2015

remains of stone structures to define the boundaries of the walls that incased the elite.

That was the surprise. The fact that the walls separated the elite from the rest of the population. The two never interacted. And between them were the "learned" men. I think they were clerics. Didn't retain much because it took a boat ride to get out to the digs and I was recovering from motion sickness and dreading the ride back.

 

Geronimoe

(1,539 posts)
11. Homeland Secrrity
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 02:26 PM
Mar 2015

Sounds like they needed Homeland Security, total surveillance of everyone and many drones.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
15. Sounds like someone is reading to much Marx.
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 02:40 PM
Mar 2015

Last edited Thu Mar 19, 2015, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Karl Marx made the statement that no Class of people have EVER given up power without a fight. I have NO dispute with that comment, but it is the comment in the article about:

We interpret this event as a revolt against the ruling elite, perhaps a response to a late intervention on the part of the state to control the entrepreneurial movements of the intermediate elite.

i.e. the Rich wanted to suppress the raising Middle Class and the Middle class revolted. Please note I am using the term Middle Class in its European meaning, i.e. what we in the US call the Upper Middle Class, those people in the top 10% of earners but excluding the top .1% who are the billionaires.

The better answer (and even more Marx) is that the common people revolted when the elite failed to adjust the system to reflect lower level of productivity do to the onset of the Dark Age Cold Period, which started about 450 AD.

https://simonjmeath.wordpress.com/2011/04/30/the-roman-warm-period-and-dark-ages-cold-period/

On top of that it is believed that Lake Ilopango in El Salvador erupted sometime between 450 and 550 AD (with most people thinking 535 AD). This lead to a massive drop in world wide Temperatures (The largest drop in 2000 years).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Ilopango

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536

http://www.earthmagazine.org/article/aag-eruption-el-salvador%E2%80%99s-ilopango-explains-ad-536-cooling

Please note the 550 AD Date for the collapse of Teotihuacan is a estimate, it may be earlier, it may be later. Thus it may be a few years after the above eruption.

Proper Marxian interpretation would be something cause a massive shortage of food, probably the eruption of Lake Ilopango. This lead to a rapid decline in living standards, but no revolt, for revolts do NOT occur as things go bad, but as things bottom out and the economy is booming.

The eruption of Lake Ilopango was one of the most massive eruptions in history, and appears to have accelerating an already existing decline in world wide temperatures that had started in the 400s (Temperatures peaked in the early 200s, then went into decline in the 200s, but then went back up in the 300s but no where near they peaks, then went into decline in the 400s, with some increase around 750, then another decline, then a rapid increase after 900 AD.

Thus Teotihuacan was under strain do to the start of the Dark Age Cold Period about 100 years before, and the eruption of Lake Ilopango would have destroyed what faith the people had in their ruling elites, especially if the elite did NOTHING but demand what the peasants had been giving them during the previous warm period (Rome appears to have undergoing the same strains, leading to Roman Peasants joining any invading tribe rather then support the existing Roman Elite, China went through a similar period of decline, but ).

Just a comment, it probably had to do with greed, but greed by the ruling elite that the peasants could no longer satisfy, and rather then starve the peasants revolted.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
16. nice analysis
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 03:09 PM
Mar 2015

I wonder how climate change will affect the elite's power structures vs the masses? The pentagon knows it will and is preparing its forces and strategies for domination for maintaining the elite's rule of the situation as the one percent increases its power and the rest are ignored and are falling behind?





 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
17. The problem with the ruling elites, is they can NOT see how they are in danger,
Thu Mar 19, 2015, 04:42 PM
Mar 2015

First, they control all the means of social control, television, newspapers, police, the courts, the Military etc. These are sometime used by one group of the elite against another, but NOT against the ruling elites as a whole (The Democratic Congress under FDR came to closest to do so, in American history). When the Communists took over Russia in the November 1917, thy went after the elites and one of the reason we in the West came to hate the Communists was they openly took the property of the elite, who either left Russia or was killed (Some did survive as workers,

Side note: While the 1% was killed off or driven into exile by the Communists, the top 10% of income earners, less the top 1%, mostly stayed in Russia. They had skills that were needed to run farms, industries and even the Army. It was the top 1% that the Communists went after for most had no real skills, but just had connections, i.e. they knew what to invest in do to those connections, much like the US today.

I suspect something like what happened in Russia 1917-1921 is what happened in that Mexican city. The people who knew how to run the city survived for they had skills the peasants appreciated.

Second side note: Stalin, when he took power starting in the late 1920s, was a blood thirsty tyrant. Stalin went after 10% I mentioned above for Stalin wanted that top 10% be his loyal followers. It started slowly, but accelerated during the purges of the late 1930s. Stalin almost destroyed Russia's ability to defend itself and improve the conditions of the Russian Population, all for Stalin to stay in power. Thus the Show Trials of the late 1930s where many a good Communists who had fought beside Lenin in 1917-1921 Confessed to being an anti-Revolutionary enemy of Russia. These purges scared the 10% so that any thought of removing Stalin disappeared. Most of the 10% stayed alive, but Stalin made it clear it was do to his personal choice. This has been compared to the Night of Long Knives that Hitler did in 1934 and what Mussolini did after he took over Italy. This can be seen in how the Shah handle the top 10% of Iranians after he was given complete power in 1954. The same with the Greek Generals after they took over Greece in the 1960s, Brazils Generals also in the 1960s, Argentina and Chile in the 1970s and 1980s.

When it came to massive killings, Right wing killings are almost always directed at the Upper Middle Class (the top 10% of income earners LESS the top 1%). The purpose of such killings is to scare the rest of the 10% AND the bottom 90% NOT to do anything. This was NOT the case with the 1917-1921 Situation in Russia, which was a left wing take over. In left wing take over, you do have some killings, but it is aimed at the 1% not the Upper Middle Class. Exile is an acceptable alternative to having to kill someone (Thus the massive number of Cuban Exiles in Florida).

China Communist take over in 1949, was more a traditional rural Chinese Peasant revolt installing a new Dynasty then a Communist Revolt. The Dynasty installed in 1949 called itself a Republic and called itself Communistic, but it is a traditional Dynasty ruled by a new 1% which also included a lot of the old 1%. Thus little killings in the early 1950s, till Mao tried to regain power within the then ruling 1% and again it follow right wing killings of the upper Middle Class not the 1%.

Thus the Right Wing has a tendency to kill off members of the Upper Middle Class (and the lower 90%) but NOT other members of the 1%. Such killings are extensive but most of the Upper Middle Class survive. The 1% want to install FEAR in the population and once enough FEAR is installed the Killings stops. I bring this up for that is how the 1% sees themselves doing such killings AND THEIR ASSUME SO WILL ANY OF THEIR ENEMIES. That a peasant revolt will want THEIR HEADS is something shocking to them. Thus the French Reign of Terror is considered as bad as Stalin's Purges, when the number of people killed are small during the Reign of Terror, but large during the purges (But the 1% was being killed during the Reign of Terror, while just Upper Middle Class people were being killed during the purges). What Lenin did during the Russian Civil War is worse, then what Pinochet did in Chile, even through when it came to people MURDERED, more were killed by agents of Pinochet (Russia was fighting a Civil War and the people FIGHTING and killed while fighting have to be excluded from the Death Toll of 1918-1921 when you are comparing death numbers between the Russian Civil War Period, 1918-1921 AND the Pinochet years right after his coup).

You see this in Egypt. When the Moslem Brotherhood took power, the number of people executed dropped. Crimes long punished by death continued in Egypt under the Brotherhood (and continue under the present Government) but Morsi and the Moslem Brotherhood made almost no arrests of their politician enemies. When the Present Government did its Coup, you had massive arrests AND killing of protesters and now the Government is sentencing members of the Brotherhood to Death. The Brotherhood were and are NOT left wing, but I bring them up for they fell into the same trap as most left wing radicals, they failed to accept the fact the 1% hates they guts and wants them DESTROYED and really do NOT care about the costs. Thus the 1% waited and plotted and overthrew the Brotherhood and then used VIOLENCE to suppress them. It was Morsi's big mistake, he should have taken out the 1%, like Lenin had done in Russia between 1918 and 1921 or do a radical surgery on the 10% as most right wingers do when they take over a government (and what the present Egyptian Government is doing).

The left has always had the problem when it comes to using FORCE. The left sees themselves as the "Good Guys" and people will support them for being the "Good Guys), but in the real world it is the side who is willing to resort to force, when it is needed, is who wins. Taking over the money and wealth from the 1% is what was needed in Russia in 1918 and in many ways what is needed today (FDR's high tax rate had the effect of slowly taking the wealth away from the 1%). Remember it is the LOSS of MONEY and CAPITAL that the 1% hates, more then death itself. Thus killing the 1% is almost a waste of time, you need to take over their assets and when you do so, the 1% will hate your guts but once they NO longer have access to those assets they are powerless.

I suspect something like Russia in 1918-1921 happened in that city. Someone organized the peasants and demanded a resolution of the problem and when the elite refused to do anything, the peasants all left. Ancient Romans said the peasants of Rome did similar revolts in the early years of the Roman Republic. Some modern scholars have attack these reports for they go against Right wing belief that the 1% are needed NOT the bottom 90%, but these stories do exist and were repeated as warnings to later Roman Rulers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_the_Orders

The peasants abandonment of the City may have been organized or done by the people in desperation (They went out looking for food, taking their families with them, leaving the ruling elites behind to starve). I lean to the peasants just leaving on their own, after any controls the ruling elite had over them disappeared (i.e. any soldiers whose duty was to prevent anyone from leaving, left to look for food first, leaving the gates open for everyone else to leave).

The ruling elite can NOT see a situation where they can be abandoned by the rest of the population. They see themselves as essential, when anyone can do they job in society. The idea that they can be replaced is something they refuse to even think of as a possibility. Look at Senator Warren's comment that no one achieve success without help, and how that observation was ATTACKED. Senator Warren's statement was correct, but it is a REJECTED concept of the elite. They see themselves as better then the rest of us, not as people who do to luck ended up with their wealth (i.e. Born on third base and thought they are the best ball player in history).

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