General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLet's Talk Privilege: What It Is, What It Isn't, and Why You Have It
Too many people seem to view the word 'privilege' and start thinking that it's a personal offense against them. "Oh you're saying I didn't work hard to get where I am because I'm white?" "You think I've never had safety concerns just because I'm a man?" "You're saying my relationship is easy because I'm straight?"
No, that's not what we're saying at all. That's the first and most common misunderstanding about privilege: it isn't about specific individuals never having tough luck; it's about a systemic advantage (or disadvantage) that has nothing to do with what one does, but what one is. The systemic advantages and disadvantages can be written into law, but they are most often deeply rooted into social behaviors we engage in without even thinking.
So white privilege isn't about whether one white person has worked for every penny he's got or has had to endure hardships. It's about the fact that being white in and of itself improved the chances that his hard work will pay off. It's about the fact that being white in and of itself reduced his chances to be shot and killed by a police officer or just shot and killed period when he was 17, or being stopped and frisked, or being convicted of a crime he didn't commit.
Why should that be considered privilege?
Because not everyone has that luxury. Privilege is the result of an unequal system. The whole concept of privilege rises from the truth that even in a country like ours that values fairness and equal opportunity, the playing field is horrendously unequal.
http://www.thepeoplesview.net/main/2015/3/11/lets-talk-privilege
virgogal
(10,178 posts)Is that privilege?
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I'm sure this one will straighten out all the misunderstandings
sheshe2
(83,785 posts)since many deny it exists.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Stellar
(5,644 posts)Unless of course it would be good for his ratings. Above all, Republic0ns love when FOX 'news' has good ratings, no matter what.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Response to napkinz (Reply #12)
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el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I am not interested in what it feels like for you; i'm interested in facts. How many Asians in your area are buying $1 million condos and homes? How large is the Asian Community in your area? What is the average price of a home in your area?
Bryant
OnlinePoker
(5,721 posts)Chinese investors global hunt for prime real estate is helping drive Vancouver home prices to record highs and the city, long among top destinations for wealthy mainland buyers, is feeling the bonanzas unwelcome side-effects.
The latest wave of Chinese money, linked in part to Beijings anti-graft crackdown, is flowing into luxury hot spots. But it has also started driving up housing costs elsewhere in a city which already ranks as North Americas least affordable urban market.
http://business.financialpost.com/2014/09/11/china-buyers-vancouver-housing/
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I mean that's Chinese money being made in China and then imported to the United States. The article cited at the top is about experiences in America. They don't really have much to do with each other.
But it is interesting; sounds like a rough situation in Vancouver in some ways.
Bryant
virgogal
(10,178 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)"White privilege" is not the only privilege. "Wealth privilege" currently trumps any other.
virgogal
(10,178 posts)Quantess
(27,630 posts)kelly1mm
(4,733 posts)have more privilege than others but if you live in the US you benefit from a global system that favors you over those in other nations.
and people here would do well to think about that more often. Not only does it favor us, but our privilege, what we have economically, is brought about through their exploitation.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Who has privilege in Japan and South Korea? Caucasians? Or Japanese and South Koreans?
kelly1mm
(4,733 posts)centric point of view. People (all races) in the countries/zones I listed have an unearned step up above those outside the countries I listed by the systematic power relationships set up in the global commercial system.
Every USA citizen is privileged due to the US Dollar's global reserve currency status for example .....
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)What you're saying is that its not a matter of white privilege, its a matter of American privilege. But then within the US, there are different levels of privilege I assume? In other words, privilege has many levels that isn't entirely dependent upon race.
kelly1mm
(4,733 posts)privilege, family type privilege, environmental privilege, genetic privilege (aka good looks), right handed privilege etc etc all exist as valid concepts with some having more of one than others and some thinking some of those privileges are not a 'real' problem. Maybe they are or maybe they are not. However they are all step ups from those without them and there is nothing (besides in very rare circumstances wealth) that the individual did to deserve that step up.
Chathamization
(1,638 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience as far as they're concerned, no one handed them anything. They built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pensions dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and they feel their dreams slipping away. And in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear an African-American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.
Like the anger within the black community, these resentments aren't always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation. Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.
Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns this too widens the racial divide and blocks the path to understanding.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88478467
I think most DUers would agree with these words.
sheshe2
(83,785 posts)The document they produced was eventually signed but ultimately unfinished. It was stained by this nation's original sin of slavery, a question that divided the colonies and brought the convention to a stalemate until the founders chose to allow the slave trade to continue for at least 20 more years, and to leave any final resolution to future generations.
Of course, the answer to the slavery question was already embedded within our Constitution a Constitution that had at its very core the ideal of equal citizenship under the law; a Constitution that promised its people liberty and justice and a union that could be and should be perfected over time.
And yet words on a parchment would not be enough to deliver slaves from bondage, or provide men and women of every color and creed their full rights and obligations as citizens of the United States. What would be needed were Americans in successive generations who were willing to do their part through protests and struggles, on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience, and always at great risk to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of their time.
I agree, many DUers would believe these words as well. Let me reiterate.
And yet words on a parchment would not be enough to deliver slaves from bondage, or provide men and women of every color and creed their full rights and obligations as citizens of the United States. What would be needed were Americans in successive generations who were willing to do their part through protests and struggles, on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience, and always at great risk to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of their time.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)That was a great speech.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)sheshe2
(83,785 posts)Not surprised. No conversation for you. You just let denial ring.
Response to sheshe2 (Reply #9)
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el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)How did that happen? Can you provide a link?
Because I'm pretty convinced that white privilege exists.
Bryant
Response to el_bryanto (Reply #33)
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el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)But I know that as a white person I've benefited from all kinds of privileges. I generally don't have to be afraid of the cops for example; in many situations I'll be given the benefit of the doubt, rather than assumed to be a dangerous menace.
Bryant
Response to el_bryanto (Reply #36)
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el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)It doesn't matter how well a black person behaves himself, he starts out with a strike against him when interacting with our white dominated society.
Bryant
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Response to el_bryanto (Reply #39)
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bravenak
(34,648 posts)You seem to have a problem with the idea. Too damn bad.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)of all sorts. To me it's plain as day.
It's most evident to me in quality of public schools in various areas, in the judicial system as evidenced by Ferguson & other places, and by incarceration rates among different demographics.
Many get defensive or hostile when it's discussed. I don't know why. Maybe they don't see themselves as benefitting from privilege when they too are struggling to pay the bills.
Response to lovemydog (Reply #11)
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el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)That's "not being a racist jackass privilege."
Bryant
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Stellar
(5,644 posts)It's sad when some whites has to be told not to believe your lying eyes but only what we report to you.
Response to napkinz (Reply #13)
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napkinz
(17,199 posts)enjoy your short stay
sheshe2
(83,785 posts)Great images to make a point of white privilege.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)and thank you for this thread!
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Last edited Thu Mar 19, 2015, 02:38 PM - Edit history (1)
Stellar
(5,644 posts)It's no wonder there is a disproportionate number of the African American community reportedly in jail than the rest of the country. All made up to make people believe Blacks are just bad.
Response to napkinz (Reply #14)
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sheshe2
(83,785 posts)They are spot on.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)romanic
(2,841 posts)A poor white American woman has white privilege but doesn't have the privilege associated with being a man or being rich.
A rich black American man has male privilege and the privilege of being rich, but he doesn't have white privilege.
Both of them have Western privilege, something that's not possessed outside of the U.S., or the U.K. or Europe/etc.
It's good to "call out" those who have privilege, but let's be real, you'd have to call out every single person out there which can be tiring. There has to be a way to even the playing field without demonizing others who have advantages imho.
CANDO
(2,068 posts)That demonizing white people is the only reason for these threads. The OPs never seem to offer any solutions. They just post these threads for the feel good affect it gives them after they get their self righteous scolding fix. With real racism out there, you'd think engaging them might be more practical than endlessly flogging their allies here. But like I said, it's really just an exercise in smug, self righteousness.
Stellar
(5,644 posts)do you feel you are being demonized, or perhaps guilty? One or the other....help me understand.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)There is a commonly held perception that if something is repeated often enough, people will start to believe it. That's why we have seen so many "privilege" threads over the past year.
Response to sheshe2 (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
BumRushDaShow
(129,066 posts)Thank you for posting sheshe!
cali
(114,904 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)...However, one can thoroughly understand how racism works and still ask just what this laser focus on White Privilege is meant to achieve.
This is messy work, but these conversations are necessary, says Sandra Chapman, director of diversity and community at Little Red School House in New York City. OKbut why? Note that the answer cannot be, So that whites will understand that they are the privileged etc. That makes as much sense as saying Because! So Im going to dare to ask a simple question: What exactly are we trying to achieve with this particular lesson?
<snip>
The White Privilege 101 course seems almost designed to turn black peoples minds from what political activism actually entails. For example, its a safe bet that most black people are more interested in there being adequate public transportation from their neighborhood to where they need to work than that white people attend encounter group sessions where they learn how lucky they are to have cars. Its a safe bet that most black people are more interested in whether their kids learn anything at their school than whether white people are reminded that their kids probably go to a better school. Given that there is no evidence that White Privilege sessions are a necessary first step to change (see above), why shunt energy from genuine activism intoIm sorrya kind of performance art?
Indeed, as Barney Frank writes in his new memoir: If you care deeply about an issue, and are engaged in group activity on its behalf that is fun and inspiring and heightens your sense of solidarity with others, you are almost certainly not doing your cause any good. The White Privilege movement should take heed.
There are two issues with privilege:
1) I don't see it.
2) Okay, so I'm privileged. What's next?
We never seem to get past #1 to activists satisfaction, but even if we did, we still run up against #2. So, while I can easily acknowledge white and straight privilege, the conversation never takes the next step - because there isn't one.
This is therefore a useless conversation.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I don't think that acknowledging white privilege is a call to action in and of itself; it's more a way of understanding the world we live in better. That understanding, that acknowledgement of the underlying forces that shape white experiences (and black experiences), should lead to action. It's not an action in and of itself. It's more basic than that; you can't really fix things until you understand what's actually wrong. Without acknowledging white privilege a lot of our efforts, well intentioned though they might be, will just be papering over the real issues.
Bryant
MerryBlooms
(11,770 posts)Response to el_bryanto (Reply #50)
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Ptah
(33,030 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)People act as if being accused of "white privilege" somehow implies that they are being accused of being bad people. It's not about that. It's about social structures, widespread attitudes, etc. that inherently tilt the playing field against some of the players. It truly blows my mind that there are people who don't get this. I suppose it's a classic example of what psychologists term "motivated cognition."
I didn't create the unfair rules, I didn't create the tilted structures. It's not my fault that they exist. However, I know that these circumstances are wrong; I have known that for as long as I have been conscious of the operation of social forces, and have participated in efforts to change them.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Awareness is useful to draw my attention to that problem.
When the doctor says, "you need to lose weight", I exercise. When the doctor says "girls don't like you because you're a redhead", I shrug and go back to exercising.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I gave his girlfriend the stink eye everyday.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Response to sheshe2 (Original post)
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el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Response to el_bryanto (Reply #40)
BubbaFett This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to el_bryanto (Reply #40)
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el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)BubbaFett
(361 posts)did I make it on your spreadsheet yet?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)At this point I'll assume that you aren't going to unpack that term - "white shaming" - because you know it's bullshit.
Bryant
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)It's a riddle.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)posted by KamaAina:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026376353
http://www.salon.com/2015/03/17/the_white_fragility_complex_why_white_people_gets_so_defensive_about_their_privilege_partner/
Response to napkinz (Reply #52)
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napkinz
(17,199 posts)again, enjoy your short stay
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Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)if not, please check it. Then check it again. And then check it one more time, for good measure.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)nt
Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #56)
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NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I mean really, people MUST READ it?
That's the sort of attitude that makes these threads combative and counterproductive, people who have decided that everyone else MUST see things just as they do and that if they can just repeat the same things and get everyone to read all those MUST READ links and articles, there's no way they can't see the light.
Repeating the same things over and over (privilege, privilege, privilege) doesn't actually make something factual. It's just a bullying tactic to get everyone to fall in line and agree.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)THEN DON'T. Some things are just that simple.
Speaking of "these threads," you sure haven't missed any of them. Why is that??
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Thanks kindly.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)What was your point? It doesn't appear to have anything to do with what I wrote.
My point was, just because someone refers to an article as a "must read," doesn't mean you have to do ANYTHING. DON'T READ IT if you don't want to....simple.
Now, connect that thought with your last paragraph again? What am I missing?
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)fits right into the bullying tactics, repeating something over and over, and trying to make people feel guilty if they don't believe a certain way. Frankly the "MUST READ" thing just got on my nerves.
"If you don't believe (whatever) you MUST READ this article so you will change your mind and believe what I believe." That's the way I took it.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Back to my original point, don't want to read it? Don't.
Life goes on....
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I will take you up on your offer and not read it.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Just an opinion, you know...like the opinion you expressed?
"These threads" are just crawling with interesting opinions, no?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"That's the way I took it..."
We often interpret a thing in such a way as to better validate our already existing biases. No doubt, others such as myself took "must read" as little more than a passionate advertisement for a good read.
However, if it's easier to pretend people are bullying you by suggesting something to read, I can absolutely understand both the desire to do so, and the fiction its built on.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)It means the world to me!
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)Your post is a MUST READ!!
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)You MUST like it!
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)and easily accessible
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)If I don't like being told what I MUST READ, you can imagine how I feel about being told what I MUST THINK. That's the point of all the privilege, privilege, privilege browbeating, to tell people they MUST THINK this whether they believe it or not.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Because black males are targeted so much by police, black parents are now forced to speak to their children about police brutality and how theyre perceived by the people that are supposed to protect them. This is a conversation that white parents have never even had to think about.
Jazmine Hughes wrote an article for Gawker about black parenting in which she reached out to a group of black parents and youths to see what they tell their sons about the police. She writes:
Every black male Ive ever met has had this talk, and its likely that Ill have to give it one day too. There are so many things I need to tell my future son, already, before Ive birthed him; so many innocuous, trite thoughts that may not make a single difference. Dont wear a hoodie. Dont try to break up a fight. Dont talk back to cops. Dont ask for help. But theyre all variations of a single theme: Dont give them an excuse to kill you.
read more: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/21/this-is-how-black-parents-talk-to-their-sons-about-the-police/
liberalhistorian
(20,818 posts)a poor western Indian reservation. I am mindful every single day of the intrinsic built-in privilege I have simply because my skin color is whiter than most of those I live among. Especially considering how deeply entrenched racism against Indians are in this state and many other western states. And I can go off the rez and have no problems, whereas if they go off the rez they encounter myriad problems every single day in every area of life.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Are Obama's children privileged?
"It's about the fact that being Obama's children in and of itself improved the chances that her hard work will pay off."
Shouldn't the privilege discussion be based on the largest factors driving unfairness/inequality. The single largest factor in future prosperity is parental prosperity.
Anansi1171
(793 posts).. on wealth previlege with Obama's children.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Or is the problem that someone is trying to consistently apply the colloquial definition of privilege.
Go read "capital" and tell me we shouldn't have a discussion about the wealth privilege passed on to the children of the 1%.
Anansi1171
(793 posts)...would suggest a conversation about the previlege afforded to the children of high-office holders start with the Obamas.
I was not on DU to be a party to all the ire thrown at Chelsea Clinton, the Bush daughters, Reagan's kids, the Kennedy children for their previleges.
Shoot, even Joe Bidens kids have been criticized recently. But sure, lets discuss the Obamas.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)even on a "liberal" message board some terms are apparently too loaded, or cut too closely.
I am white. Mostly.
I am not profiled as a possible thief simply by walking in a store.
I cannot "ruin" a neighborhood simply by moving into it.
I will not get shot for walking through a neighborhood with an iced tea and skittles as my weapons.
I can walk around with an actual gun without worrying that a policeman will pull up and shoot me on sight.
I can play loud music without getting shot because "my music and attitude were threatening".
In other words, I am not 3/5ths of a man.
And yes, I do have white privilege even though I am not rich.
Response to guillaumeb (Reply #76)
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sheshe2
(83,785 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)It financially benefits white people to keep their privilege. The human race's entire story can be summed up this way: powerful people taking from less powerful people. Only when forced will they give up their privileges.
This is why portraying racism as a privilege is ultimately self-defeating. It is more useful to think of racism as a harm done that might benefit whites only in an illusory way, but when eliminated, would benefit all groups, including whites.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)"It financially benefits white people to keep their privilege." I would argue that it benefits primarily the top1% of white people. These same 1% also use their corporate media to frame the issue so that many white people feel threatened by talk of equal rights.
Most working class people are not doing well. If the issue could be framed as class warfare hiding behind racism perhaps people would better understand why they are not doing well.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)We are all dancing to the tune of the 1% in the end, aren't we?
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)It seems to me that hardest thing will be to get them to agree to forfeit that privilege in favor of a more level playing field. There are things we can do relatively easily and other things that will be much more difficult.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Years ago some feminist on the Internet told me I was "privileged."
"THE F&CK!?!?" I said.
I came from the kind of poor that people don't want to believe still exists in this country. Have you ever spent a frigid northern-Illinois winter without heat or running water? I have. At 12 years old were you making ramen noodles in a coffee maker with water you fetched from a public bathroom? I was. Have you ever lived in a camper year-round and used a random relative's apartment as your mailing address? We did. Did you attend so many different elementary schools that you can only remember a quarter of their names? Welcome to my childhood.
So when that feminist told me I had "white privilege," I told her that my white skin didn't do shit to prevent me from experiencing poverty. Then, like any good, educated feminist would, she directed me to Peggy McIntosh's now-famous 1988 piece "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack."
After one reads McIntosh's powerful essay, it's impossible to deny that being born with white skin in America affords people certain unearned privileges in life that people of other skin colors simply are not afforded. For example:
"I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented."
"When I am told about our national heritage or about 'civilization,' I am shown that people of my color made it what it is."
"If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race."
"I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time."
If you read through the rest of the list, you can see how white people and people of color experience the world in very different ways. But listen: This is not said to make white people feel guilty about their privilege. It's not your fault that you were born with white skin and experience these privileges. But whether you realize it or not, you do benefit from it, and it is your fault if you don't maintain awareness of that fact.
read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000010
sheshe2
(83,785 posts)Maeve
(42,282 posts)Yeah, I came from a poor-but-rose-out-of-it white background, and yeah, my family has been here since 1750--but I gotten some good out of the white privilege threads.
For those who missed it, my family has a point-of-pride story; one of my ancestors left Virginia for Ohio after seeing a slave beaten in the public square "We're going where that doesn't happen". But that's also a story of privilege--they COULD go where that doesn't happen. The slave had no choice. My family was free to live where they pleased; had their skin been darker--not so much. Ohio had "sundown" towns where a black family was not welcome. Yeah, we worked hard, but hard work was not enough for others--and those of us who prospered should look back at those who haven't and realize the playing field is NOT level.
Likewise, when I went to college, you could pay your way with a part-time job--not possible today. My kids lived at home and had full-time work--STILL couldn't meet tuition. The system is getting more unequal. It has to be fixed for ALL our futures.
Now for all the folks who want to argue with me, tell me how wrong I am--not interested. Please spend your time in more productive pursuits.
raven mad
(4,940 posts)If it's not understood after this, it won't be! Thanks, sheshe2.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)There are many kinds of privilege, and people can fall into more than one group; of privilege, and not.
For example: I'm white, so I'm racially privileged. I freely acknowledge that. I'm a woman, so I am not gender privileged. I'm straight, so I'm orientation privileged. I come from under-educated, poor working people, so I'm not economically/class privileged.
I could go on. That said, this is what I agree with:
Privilege is the result of an unequal system. The whole concept of privilege rises from the truth that even in a country like ours that values fairness and equal opportunity, the playing field is horrendously unequal.
Partially, because I don't really think our country values fairness and equal opportunity. We give it lip service, patting ourselves on the back while doing so. But we don't walk the talk.