Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 01:51 PM Mar 2015

Why White People Freak Out When They're Called Out About Race

http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race


I can only paste four paragraphs so here they are, but I encourage people to read the whole thing:

SAB: What causes white fragility to set in?

RD: For white people, their identities rest on the idea of racism as about good or bad people, about moral or immoral singular acts, and if we’re good, moral people we can’t be racist – we don’t engage in those acts. This is one of the most effective adaptations of racism over time—that we can think of racism as only something that individuals either are or are not “doing.”

In large part, white fragility—the defensiveness, the fear of conflict—is rooted in this good/bad binary. If you call someone out, they think to themselves, “What you just said was that I am a bad person, and that is intolerable to me.” It’s a deep challenge to the core of our identity as good, moral people.

The good/bad binary is also what leads to the very unhelpful phenomenon of un-friending on Facebook.
69 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why White People Freak Out When They're Called Out About Race (Original Post) gollygee Mar 2015 OP
If someone has not personally done something racist... Rod Beauvex Mar 2015 #1
You should read the article. el_bryanto Mar 2015 #3
You aren't aware that the systems in place jen63 Mar 2015 #4
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #15
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #20
Nice try! jen63 Mar 2015 #21
Post removed Post removed Mar 2015 #24
And of course your relative position in life has nothing to do with being a white male. nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #27
Wow. Enjoy your stay n/t Scootaloo Mar 2015 #29
A quick internet search will give you millions of results in seconds etherealtruth Mar 2015 #22
So you think the reason some groups are more successful than others, is due to simple superiority? nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #25
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #39
Persistence pays off BumRushDaShow Mar 2015 #36
I'm just sorry I missed his response to me. nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #49
It was ranting about "affirmative action" BumRushDaShow Mar 2015 #63
I really think you need to read the article, and others about racism in society. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Mar 2015 #5
Very interesting inteview; well worth considering. Thanks for posting. nt el_bryanto Mar 2015 #2
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #6
Maybe you should try reading the article gollygee Mar 2015 #7
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #10
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #12
Thanks for the kick! gollygee Mar 2015 #13
You're still not welcome here Ptah Mar 2015 #14
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #16
It's a knee-jerk reaction to a perception of being broad-brushed BumRushDaShow Mar 2015 #8
"like many (obviously not all) of them do to others without hesitation." nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #26
Highly recommend...thank you. Hope more read it. n/t Jefferson23 Mar 2015 #9
Unfortunately the one's that need to read it the most won't. giftedgirl77 Mar 2015 #33
"It's a well played game here." Number23 Mar 2015 #38
Just wait for the counter threads 23.... giftedgirl77 Mar 2015 #45
Yep. Between the hidden posts and the "SOME white people" counter "argument" Number23 Mar 2015 #46
I believe I counted 11 name removed and more than a couple of complaints on the premise Jefferson23 Mar 2015 #48
Yes well the POC on here have seen it on here giftedgirl77 Mar 2015 #54
Interesting interview, thanks Maeve Mar 2015 #11
Message auto-removed Name removed Mar 2015 #18
Recommended Maeve. LeftOfWest Mar 2015 #62
Baffling that folks would "freak out" when broad brushed about their race (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2015 #17
Broadbrushing romanic Mar 2015 #23
Then how come you guys never confront right-wingers over their broadbrushing of minorities? nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #28
Best post and response of the week, you win this NoJusticeNoPeace Mar 2015 #30
Awesome! nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #34
This bit of the article should be pinned to this forum: Number23 Mar 2015 #37
That experience gollygee Mar 2015 #69
Baffling that you would post a reply without reading the OP article Scootaloo Mar 2015 #31
Excellent read... Spazito Mar 2015 #19
Wonderful interview. A-Schwarzenegger Mar 2015 #32
Love the "new" posters that are always drawn like flies to honey to these kinds of posts Number23 Mar 2015 #35
Bad title. LWolf Mar 2015 #40
Much more edgy and controversial to avoid using the word "some". (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2015 #42
In before... romanic Mar 2015 #43
The problem with adding that disclaimer is it makes it too easy for people to think that the subject nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #50
For some. LWolf Mar 2015 #67
Not everyone. alphafemale Mar 2015 #41
Oh goodie, "white fragility" will now enter DU's lexicon. SMC22307 Mar 2015 #44
Wish someone would write about why upper-class people freak out when they're called ND-Dem Mar 2015 #47
I think it's largely a matter of being born on second and thinking they hit a double. nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #51
I mean *monied* people. And the answer is, they want to keep everyone busy ND-Dem Mar 2015 #55
So you don't believe that being white confers *any* advantages? Or being male? Or being hetero? n/t nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #57
I think you understood my meaning perfectly well. If you want to talk to your own ND-Dem Mar 2015 #58
Okay, but you were seemingly dismissing race, gender, and sexuality, as if class were all that nomorenomore08 Mar 2015 #59
except that all those other attributes are used to pit people of more or less the same ND-Dem Mar 2015 #61
So why was billionaire Oprah Winfrey BumRushDaShow Mar 2015 #65
This is the gollygee Mar 2015 #68
Wow, 'name removed' seems to be freaking out! Looks like you are on to something. Rex Mar 2015 #52
Since I learned about White Privaledge, Agnosticsherbet Mar 2015 #53
That was a beautiful article MrScorpio Mar 2015 #56
The problem is that we don't realize right now that we're just arguing with ourselves..... DeSwiss Mar 2015 #60
If some people get it, it's not like the quantum mechanics. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2015 #64
k & r Euphoria Mar 2015 #66

Rod Beauvex

(564 posts)
1. If someone has not personally done something racist...
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 02:00 PM
Mar 2015

...you should not be calling them on race.


Why is this such a hard concept?

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
3. You should read the article.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 02:04 PM
Mar 2015

"As if they’re going to give me the one-sentence answer to arguably the most challenging social dynamic of our time. Like, hey, why did I knock myself out for 20 years studying, researching, and challenging this within myself and others? I should have just come to you! And the answer is so simple! I’ve never heard that one before!"

Bryant

Response to jen63 (Reply #4)

Response to jen63 (Reply #4)

jen63

(813 posts)
21. Nice try!
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 05:51 PM
Mar 2015

Affirmative Action programs would be attempts to correct institutional racism. But then, you knew that didn't you?

Response to jen63 (Reply #21)

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
27. And of course your relative position in life has nothing to do with being a white male.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:27 PM
Mar 2015

You did everything all by your oh-so-very-special self.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
25. So you think the reason some groups are more successful than others, is due to simple superiority?
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:25 PM
Mar 2015

How convenient for you...

Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #25)

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
49. I'm just sorry I missed his response to me.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 09:14 PM
Mar 2015

But I'll give it better than 50/50 it involved at least one of the following buzzwords: "personal responsibility," "black community," "thug culture," "grievance industry." You could practically play madlibs with some of these guys.

BumRushDaShow

(129,662 posts)
63. It was ranting about "affirmative action"
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 04:55 AM
Mar 2015

which is an oldie but goody, and I posted just as it received its pizza.



Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
5. I really think you need to read the article, and others about racism in society.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 02:07 PM
Mar 2015

It's not about 'people being racist' (which is actually 'people doing things that are racially bigoted') but the notion that the every day status quo in which we all live in America is racist in so many ways, so by not actively challenging the status quo, we end up reinforcing racism in society, simply by participating in racially slanted systems and treating them as if they are simply 'normal' or 'the way things are'.

Response to gollygee (Original post)

Response to gollygee (Reply #7)

Response to gollygee (Reply #7)

Response to gollygee (Reply #7)

BumRushDaShow

(129,662 posts)
8. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a perception of being broad-brushed
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 02:15 PM
Mar 2015

like many (obviously not all) of them do to others without hesitation.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
26. "like many (obviously not all) of them do to others without hesitation."
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:26 PM
Mar 2015

And this is really the most irritating part of all. They just can't see their own hypocrisy.

 

giftedgirl77

(4,713 posts)
33. Unfortunately the one's that need to read it the most won't.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:37 PM
Mar 2015

They will just plug their ears & jump up & down crying victim. It's a well played game here.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
38. "It's a well played game here."
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 07:03 PM
Mar 2015

Yep, and the same players play it over and over and over again.

The whole article is fabulous but the end is simply magnificent:

Imagine if I was an astronomer. Everybody has a basic understanding of the sky, but they would not debate an astronomer on astronomy. The arrogance of white people faced with questions of race is unbelievable.


I've often found that to be true as well.
 

giftedgirl77

(4,713 posts)
45. Just wait for the counter threads 23....
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 08:10 PM
Mar 2015

You know they're coming, hell some of bullshit already started in this thread.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
46. Yep. Between the hidden posts and the "SOME white people" counter "argument"
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 08:32 PM
Mar 2015

the denials have already begun.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
48. I believe I counted 11 name removed and more than a couple of complaints on the premise
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 09:08 PM
Mar 2015

of the OP, not the content.

Regardless, it is good to post what some find uncomfortable. I am surprised though,
I mean..when anyone is reading an OP, no one knows this..so you have the
autonomy, you have the privacy to read it through and be honest with yourself
and let it sink in and consider it all from another perspective. The OP can't talk
back to you.

Because of that I find the defensive remarks posted very telling.

 

giftedgirl77

(4,713 posts)
54. Yes well the POC on here have seen it on here
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 10:26 PM
Mar 2015

time & time again whenever a topic such as this comes up. We've come to expect their petty bullshit & deflection.

Maeve

(42,297 posts)
11. Interesting interview, thanks
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 02:33 PM
Mar 2015

My family has a story--the reason my ancestors moved to a non-slave state was they objected to seeing a slave beaten in public. Yeah, it's a point of pride, but also a point of privilege; they COULD move away, because they were white.

Response to Maeve (Reply #11)

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
28. Then how come you guys never confront right-wingers over their broadbrushing of minorities?
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:28 PM
Mar 2015

Seems like all you do is complain about your fellow Dems being mean to white people.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
37. This bit of the article should be pinned to this forum:
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:54 PM
Mar 2015
Exactly. And white fragility also comes from a deep sense of entitlement. Think about it like this: from the time I opened my eyes, I have been told that as a white person, I am superior to people of color. There’s never been a space in which I have not been receiving that message. From what hospital I was allowed to be born in, to how my mother was treated by the staff, to who owned the hospital, to who cleaned the rooms and took out the garbage. We are born into a racial hierarchy, and every interaction with media and culture confirms it—our sense that, at a fundamental level, we are superior.

And, the thing is, it feels good. Even though it contradicts our most basic principles and values. So we know it, but we can never admit it. It creates this kind of dangerous internal stew that gets enacted externally in our interactions with people of color, and is crazy-making for people of color. We have set the world up to preserve that internal sense of superiority and also resist challenges to it. All while denying that anything is going on and insisting that race is meaningless to us.


'Cause damn, if these two paragraphs do not sum up the repeated and expected wailing and gnashing from certain quarters of DU, then NOTHING EVER WILL.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
69. That experience
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 07:52 AM
Mar 2015

That is, reading the article and recognizing so much of what it was talking about had been in threads here at DU, is what made me think it would be worthwhile to post it here.

A-Schwarzenegger

(15,596 posts)
32. Wonderful interview.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:36 PM
Mar 2015

“What would your daily life be like if you could just simply give us feedback, have us receive it graciously, reflect on it and work to change the behavior? What would your life be like?”

And this one man of color looked at me and said, “It would be revolutionary.”

Number23

(24,544 posts)
35. Love the "new" posters that are always drawn like flies to honey to these kinds of posts
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 06:48 PM
Mar 2015

If I thought it would do them the first bit of good, that these articles would inspire even the tiniest bit of self-reflection and compassion, I'd post them myself.

As it is, I'm currently very content in the knowledge that the fact that minorities and clued in whites will simply not SHUT THE FUCK UP about the myriad ways that racism in all of its forms affects the world and its inhabitants causes these people to writhe and wail in agony. It's a small thing but even small things can pack a nice impact.

Tal Fortgang’s essay—indignant, defensive, beside-the-point, somehow both self-pitying and self-aggrandizing—followed a familiar script. As an anti-racist educator for more than two decades, DiAngelo has heard versions of it recited hundreds of times by white men and women in her workshops.

She’s heard it so many times, in fact, that she came up with a term for it: "white fragility," which she defined in a 2011 journal article as “a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include outward display of emotions such as anger, fear and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence and leaving the stress-inducing situation.


What? The HELL you say!! I never heard of such a thing!

I wanted to take it on because it’s a frustrating dynamic that I encounter a lot. I don’t have a lot of patience for it.


Join the club, sister.

romanic

(2,841 posts)
43. In before...
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 07:57 PM
Mar 2015

someone posts #notallwhitepeople with the illusion of being edgy for using a year-old hashtag as snark. :lol:

I don't blame some white DUers for being slighted with these kind of articles cause it seems so broad, plus it never encourages a honest discussion on race; just people being defensive or snarky with each other. Then again, I don't think online discussions solve anything.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
50. The problem with adding that disclaimer is it makes it too easy for people to think that the subject
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 09:23 PM
Mar 2015

of the article couldn't possibly ever apply to them. Which then short-circuits any possible introspection.

SMC22307

(8,090 posts)
44. Oh goodie, "white fragility" will now enter DU's lexicon.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 08:04 PM
Mar 2015


And it's hard to take any piece seriously that uses Facebook un-friending as some sort of guide.
 

ND-Dem

(4,571 posts)
47. Wish someone would write about why upper-class people freak out when they're called
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 08:47 PM
Mar 2015

on *their* privilege.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
51. I think it's largely a matter of being born on second and thinking they hit a double.
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 09:36 PM
Mar 2015

And for those who once were among the lower classes and no longer are, they probably think, "*I* made it, so why can't everyone else?" Which neglects the fact that, even if economically disadvantaged, they may still have had things many people don't - loving parents, a somewhat decent school system, high enough grades to earn scholarships, etc.

 

ND-Dem

(4,571 posts)
55. I mean *monied* people. And the answer is, they want to keep everyone busy
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 01:16 AM
Mar 2015

talking about race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference -- anything but wealth (the actual source of power) -- and freak out when people get off-message, because it threatens them.

Having people believe that "white people," "men," "straight people," etc. are the problem is so much more comfortable for them.

 

ND-Dem

(4,571 posts)
58. I think you understood my meaning perfectly well. If you want to talk to your own
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 02:45 AM
Mar 2015

talking points, have at it. But I won't be joining you.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
59. Okay, but you were seemingly dismissing race, gender, and sexuality, as if class were all that
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 02:51 AM
Mar 2015

mattered in conferring advantages or disadvantages. If that's not what you meant, then I apologize.

I agree that social class is too often neglected in these discussions. But the solution is certainly not to downplay white, male, or heterosexual "privilege" - we have nothing to gain by denying simple reality.

 

ND-Dem

(4,571 posts)
61. except that all those other attributes are used to pit people of more or less the same
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 03:56 AM
Mar 2015

class against each other in the interest of the ruling class

divide and rule

BumRushDaShow

(129,662 posts)
65. So why was billionaire Oprah Winfrey
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 05:23 AM
Mar 2015

refused a purchase of an expensive item?

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/09/switzerland_apologizes_to_oprah_for_store_assistan_racism/

Money and wealth is irrelevant when it comes to white privilege once the perpetrator sees a black face. It is a centuries-old, institutionalized behavior, that continues to be passed on from generation to generation. In this case, a (in relative terms to the customer) "lower income sales clerk" in a high-end shop in Switzerland felt emboldened enough to deny a purchase to a black billionaire because the item was "too expensive". When the store finally apologized, the store's "excuse" was that the clerk "was Italian".

One of the top racism-denial excuses is that it isn't "race", it's "class". I say, that's bullshit.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/08/10/210574193/why-didnt-the-store-just-let-oprah-buy-the-38-000-handbag

Multi-millionaire actor/director Forest Whitaker was profiled because of his black face, was accused of shoplifting, and as is typical for black folks trying to shop, was monitored, followed, and finally harassed by being patted down as he tried to leave the store.

His "wealth" was irrelevant, but his black face wasn't. And thus class is "irrelevant" when it comes to being a member of a certain demographic.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
53. Since I learned about White Privaledge,
Sun Mar 15, 2015, 09:46 PM
Mar 2015

I realized how screwed up we are.

White Privaledge is something we all benefit from, whether we like it or not.

The only way not to benefit is to find a way to end it.

 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
60. The problem is that we don't realize right now that we're just arguing with ourselves.....
Mon Mar 16, 2015, 03:00 AM
Mar 2015
- It's like the Theory of Quantum Mechanics, some people get it -- the rest don't.

K&R

[font size=5]The Egg[/font]

You were on your way home when you died. It was a car accident. Nothing particularly remarkable, but fatal nonetheless. You left behind a wife and two children. It was a painless death. The EMTs tried their best to save you, but to no avail. Your body was so utterly shattered you were better off, trust me. And that’s when you met me.

“What… what happened?” You asked. “Where am I?”

“You died,” I said, matter-of-factly. No point in mincing words.

“There was a… a truck and it was skidding…”

“Yup,” I said.

“I… I died?”

“Yup. But don’t feel bad about it. Everyone dies,” I said.

You looked around. There was nothingness. Just you and me. “What is this place?” You asked. “Is this the afterlife?”

“More or less,” I said.

“Are you god?” You asked.

“Yup,” I replied. “I’m God.”

“My kids… my wife,” you said.

“What about them?”

“Will they be all right?”

“That’s what I like to see,” I said. “You just died and your main concern is for your family. That’s good stuff right there.”

You looked at me with fascination. To you, I didn’t look like God. I just looked like some man. Or possibly a woman. Some vague authority figure, maybe. More of a grammar school teacher than the almighty.

“Don’t worry,” I said. “They’ll be fine. Your kids will remember you as perfect in every way. They didn’t have time to grow contempt for you. You wife will cry on the outside, but will be secretly relieved. To be fair, your marriage was falling apart. If it’s any consolation, she’ll feel very guilty for feeling relieved.”

“Oh,” you said. “So what happens now? Do I go to heaven or hell or something?”

“Neither,” I said. “You’ll be reincarnated.”

“Ah,” you said. “So the Hindus were right,”

“All religions are right in their own way,” I said. “Walk with me.”

You followed along as we strode through the void.

“Where are we going?”

“Nowhere in particular,” I said. “It’s just nice to walk while we talk.”

“So what’s the point, then?” You asked. “When I get reborn, I’ll just be a blank slate, right? A baby. So all my experiences and everything I did in this life won’t matter.”

“Not so!” I said. “You have within you all the knowledge and experiences of all your past lives. You just don’t remember them right now.” I stopped walking and took you by the shoulders. “Your soul is more magnificent, beautiful, and gigantic than you can possibly imagine. A human mind can only contain a tiny fraction of what you are. It’s like sticking your finger in a glass of water to see if it’s hot or cold. You put a tiny part of yourself into the vessel, and when you bring it back out, you’ve gained all the experiences it had.

“You’ve been in a human for the last 48 years, so you haven’t stretched out yet and felt the rest of your immense consciousness. If we hung out here for long enough, you’d start remembering everything. But there’s no point to doing that between each life.”

“How many times have I been reincarnated, then?”

“Oh lots. Lots and lots. And into lots of different lives.” I said. “This time around, you’ll be a Chinese peasant girl in 540 AD.”

“Wait, what?” You stammered. “You’re sending me back in time?”

“Well, I guess technically. Time, as you know it, only exists in your universe. Things are different where I come from.”

“Where you come from?” You said.

“Oh sure,” I explained “I come from somewhere. Somewhere else. And there are others like me. I know you’ll want to know what it’s like there, but honestly you wouldn’t understand.”

“Oh,” you said, a little let down. “But wait. If I get reincarnated to other places in time, I could have interacted with myself at some point.”

“Sure. Happens all the time. And with both lives only aware of their own lifespan you don’t even know it’s happening.”

“So what’s the point of it all?”

“Seriously?” I asked. “Seriously? You’re asking me for the meaning of life? Isn’t that a little stereotypical?”

“Well it’s a reasonable question,” you persisted.

I looked you in the eye. “The meaning of life, the reason I made this whole universe, is for you to mature.”

“You mean mankind? You want us to mature?”

“No, just you. I made this whole universe for you. With each new life you grow and mature and become a larger and greater intellect.”

“Just me? What about everyone else?”

“There is no one else,” I said. “In this universe, there’s just you and me.”

You stared blankly at me. “But all the people on earth…”

“All you. Different incarnations of you.”

“Wait. I’m everyone!?”

“Now you’re getting it,” I said, with a congratulatory slap on the back.

“I’m every human being who ever lived?”

“Or who will ever live, yes.”

“I’m Abraham Lincoln?”

“And you’re John Wilkes Booth, too,” I added.

“I’m Hitler?” You said, appalled.

“And you’re the millions he killed.”

“I’m Jesus?”

“And you’re everyone who followed him.”

You fell silent.

“Every time you victimized someone,” I said, “you were victimizing yourself. Every act of kindness you’ve done, you’ve done to yourself. Every happy and sad moment ever experienced by any human was, or will be, experienced by you.”

You thought for a long time.

“Why?” You asked me. “Why do all this?”

“Because someday, you will become like me. Because that’s what you are. You’re one of my kind. You’re my child.”

“Whoa,” you said, incredulous. “You mean I’m a god?”

“No. Not yet. You’re a fetus. You’re still growing. Once you’ve lived every human life throughout all time, you will have grown enough to be born.”

“So the whole universe,” you said, “it’s just…”

“An egg.” I answered. “Now it’s time for you to move on to your next life.”

And I sent you on your way.

by Andy Weir
January 30, 2010


http://imryanw.tumblr.com/post/362115206/the-egg-by-andy-weir
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Why White People Freak Ou...