Madonna: Women are the most marginalised group in society

[steve2470]

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 10:20 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/mar/12/madonna-women-are-the-most-marginalised-group-in-society



Madonna has said that women are “still the most marginalised group” in society.

In an interview with Out magazine, Madonna echoed Patricia Arquette’s recent Oscars acceptance speech by claiming that women were failing to make the same progress as gay people and African Americans.

She said: “Gay rights are way more advanced than women’s rights. People are a lot more open-minded to the gay community than they are to women, period.”

The Rebel Heart singer added: “It’s moved along for the gay community, for the African-American community, but women are still just trading on their ass. To me, the last great frontier is women.”

ETA: Here's the Out interview.

[bravenak]

1. It has not moved along for the AA community much, and the gay community is still very marginalized.

If she thinks things are better for black gay men than women, she is not thinking clearly and needs some education. I hope she knows there are black women, gay women, trans women who are black and not doing nearly as well as this group of women that she claims are much more marginalized than she is. At least she didn't tell us that we owe her.

[steve2470]

3. with all due respect to women and to Madonna, I think she's wrong

I agree with you. If she's only talking about the USA, then I would submit the AA community and the trans community.

ETA: Brain fart, the Native American community comes to mind also.

ETA2: Ok, I fell into the wrong frame here. There's no competition.

[bravenak]

4. The trans community has been hit pretty hard.

I try to keep that in mind when I feel oppressed.

[steve2470]

5. I think the black community has experienced near-genocidal conditions

I have tons of sympathy for all oppressed communities, but yea, the black community has been really almost totally devastated, along with the Native American community. I think Madonna needs to do a lot of reading.

[bravenak]

6. I wish people would do the reading before they speak.

It's stressful when people tell you how great things are when you know for sure they are getting worse. I think she really believes herself. That is sad. I hope she gets an education from her friends.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

56. Last night on Larry Wilmore some dumbass rightwing comic Nick DiPaulo

was angry that political correctness existed and that it only exists to go after white/straight/conservative/christian males

Well Nick, that is because ALL other groups of people, whether it be females, AfAm, gay, Latino, Muslim, EVERYBODY else are people YOU make fun of, attack, offend on a daily basis.

You are mad that you can no longer attack and ridicule anyone who is not like you without condemnation.

Fuck you, Nick

I dont even want to type his name to give him publicity

asshole

[cali]

8. but the fact remains that for all the advances the LGBT community has made

and I celebrate those, women's rights have been in retreat legally.

[bravenak]

13. Trans women are bein murdered in record numbers.

And as for black people, no. 1/3 of our men felons, a system designed to oppress us, and trans being arrested for goung to the restroom. No. We pay lip service to progress. We change laws and keep on treating gays and blacks just the same way as we used to. More anti gay laws are being tried and they are much more restrictive than the anti abortion laws. Straight white women like her have many more rights than african americans and lgbt and always have. Most of the afirmative action went to that group and they now earn more than black men. No. She is wrong.

[cali]

14. and that's a tragedy, but as far as magnitude goes, the revocation of

women's reproductive rights is many, many times greater. I'm not suggesting that we ignore trans rights, but that we recognize and fight against the enormous setbacks that women are suffering. And those setbacks impact all women.

[bravenak]

20. Black women fall under AA.

Gay black women are also AA. She is not speaking about us when she talks about how marginalized we are compared to black people because we are black people. Black people have not been making any gains since integration in society. The second we got civil rights they got rolled back by the drug war, stop and frisk, red lining, higher interest on loans, harsher punishments in school, refusals to sell or rent to us, voter ID, stand your ground, and the numerous daily civil rights violations based on race we get day to day that women like her do not experience. She had no idea what she is talking about when she says that women are MORE marginalized than blacks or gays. That is crazy talk. A black man is much more marginalized in our society than a white woman and does not have the right to walk unmolested through a major city without a police man violating him with a search and seizure. He had that right. But he does not today. A white woman does not even need to think about that. The setbacks black peope are facing right now, like prison for our men, something that comes from the drug war ahd overpolicing of our population, lead to the setback of fatherless children being raised by poor women on a smaller income than a white woman or black man. Everybody forgets that black domestics got left out of the new deal and made no progress with white women. Built no wealth. And are now doing it all without our men to help by bringing on a second income. Black poverty is much higher than it should be. The drug war is the biggest setback since Jim Crow. And we never get to vote on that. White women at least get to vote on whether to choose an anti aboprtion candidate. And they do. Marginalizing themselves in a way we cannot.

Women are not more marginalized than blacks or gays. Period. I say this as a black woman. It's easier for me as a woman than as a black person. I get job offers on the phone because I sound white. I have had them withdrawn once they saw me in person with a bullshit explanation. I am excellent at everything I do.

[cali]

32. black women also fall under.... women. Look, I don't agree with Madonna and I do agree with someone

downthread who said that it's not a competition. I find the competition as to who is most oppressed counterproductive as all hell.

I don't see how you can say black people haven't made gains in the past 50 years. There have been gains as well as setbacks.

In any case you seem into the competition aspect of this. and I say that not based on one post but on many of your posts. Ss I said, I find the competition counterproductive.

I also look askance at anyone's claim that they are excellent at everything. that's just weird to me.

but I'll leave you to carry on with your competition.

[bravenak]

37. When people say that they are MORE marginalized than black people THEY made it into a competition.

When people start catagorizing people into race, they go to their category.
No need to be abrasive. If you do not want to discuss this with me, just don't bother responding to my posts. I will always make my case clearly. And rationally.
My past posts have nothing to do with this op. By saying I'm excellent at everything I was talking about being refused jobs that had accepted me prior to finding out my race. Stating that my qualifications are always on point, so the refusal was not based on that.
Where you see gains other people see smoke and mirrors.

[kcr]

50. She's not making it into a competition. It already exists.

It doesn't matter where we are on the hierarchy of oppression. This competition is still used against us. I agree that blacks as a group are far more marginalized than women. That fact is used against women all the time. For example, I used to mod for this board way back in the day and a particularly slur against women was alerted against. I was outvoted on doing anything about it and one of the explanations used was it wasn't the same thing as slurs against black people because they don't have the same history of oppression, followed by some nods of yeah, that makes sense agreement. I didn't even make the comparison, this was simply used as an excuse to let it stand. This type of rationalization for excusing sexism is quite common. Personally, I have a strong suspicion that the types of people who use that kind of rationalization don't even care about either group. Again, I don't think Madonna is right, but I often wonder if that doesn't come from frustration over dealing with this competition that is set up by those who rationalize in this way, and suspect this message is meant for them.

[seabeyond]

38. i am dealing with a 26 yr old woman trying to get a legal medical procedure. and walking away alive.

this happens every day, .... all over the world and this nation.

and THIS is because she is a woman.

but, this is the point of what is being said by women.

this is marginalized cause it is how women have always been treated. it is marginalized because it is so accepted in our world. a woman sitting in front of congress is called a slut, because she merely spoke. it is demanded by a man to make sex videos so men can get off to it.

we have congress telling us to put an aspirin between our knees, and when raped, lay back and enjoy it.

he have a society that says all women are liars, and it follows them into the police stations, court houses, media..... when they say, rape. video, .... distribution. fuggin' rape, and they are dismissed because all women are liars. or boys will be boys. it is genetic.

we have laws being passed where a woman must give birth.

we also have the male society of patriarchy that has men getting women preg purposely to have a hold on them. to beat them in submission. that uses every ugly thing in our world, our entertainment, porn, ads, movies..... internet, to vilify, degrade, humiliate, shame our girls into submission.

the statistics of the violence toward women. ALL because they are women.

there is an acceptance, allowance, dismissal of it. look at the world and the treatment of women, that we are just tired of hearing. so much so, we desensitize to it and say boys will be boys, genetic (evo psych), women need to protect themselves or they are the cause. so ingrained.

a news media saying out loud that women dare to have sex like men. you know. have a libido. allowed to have sex, like men. how dare they.

as a society of men demand we are all their porn. milf, anyone? who the fuck are these punk ass kids pornifying grown women for their giggle.

our girls being blamed for daring to buck up, and do the work in school, for the later rewards in life. (black girls are escalating in numbers going to college. that is excellent, and accomplishment, these girls success!). and they are being dismissed, as if they only receive that reward of hard work, as a gimme. look at the poor boys, not doing the work, and not getting any reward cause they did not do the work. this is ingrained in our science....

black men are being killed by the police. it is escalating. battle lines are being drawn, sides are being taken. it is clear the abuse. it is clear the racism. there is none of us that will not see it for what it is, among all of us being oppressed. it is clear.

i do not want to compare, or challenge, or dismiss, or lessen any of our experience. we are one in abuse and oppression

now, let me ask.... do you take note in these threads and look at the people feeding an anger in these divisions?

do that.

you will note, men that have never stood with women, stand with black women attacking white women. men, that have never stood with women, stand with the division of diversity "them against us" in the womans community. men, that have never stood with women, cheer the battle of porn and selling/renting women for their use of women. men, that have never stood with women, feed the anger/misunderstandings/need for dialogue in the issue with transwomen. only transwomen. we hear no discussion of transmen. they do not care. that is woman body.... rights? wtf? what would that be. but, pitting male parts women against women? they are so fuggin' on board. a division of women.

i would like a discussion. i have no desire for a battle. that is the purpose, intent, desire of these threads on du and the whole. it is a manner of strategy, to take all of us down.

because it divides and lessens our voice.

du. say the n word, and it will be hidden. mostly. (see how we have to do this? because even on du, incredibly. sometimes it is allowed.)

say the c word and MAYBE a 50% chance of hidden. any other slur? probably not.

even as a progressive society, it just is not as bad to use a sexist slur, opposed to a racist or homophobic slur. calling a woman a harpy, or a bitch or many of the others, is just being descriptive of what she is doing.

does that mean, as a white woman, i have it as hard as a black woman? not even close. not. even. close.

and let me count the ways.

so.

where do we go from here?

[niyad]

47. wish I could rec this + a gazillion, sea.

[bravenak]

48. Feminism should never be for divisions but it seems to be.

When feminists start saying that they have it worse than black people they create divisions in our communitiy. Black men and women are grouped together as a group. We always are. Start drawing lines, people will go to their corners.

We do not see black men as a part of the patriarchy as you guys do. We know that a white woman can use her power against a black man at anytime. If a white woman says she was raped by a white man, there may not even be an investigation. Say it was a big black man? They will line up black men for days to get a suspect. Black men have no power to keep white women down in society as a whole. They can harm them person to person. But they cannot marginalize them and keep them down. When I hear the generic women followed by black people, I know I go in the black people box.
Look around you. Do you see many black feminists around here? Black men? Hell no! Why the hell would they want to come and be told that their pov is wrong all the time? So much time is is spent with white people trying to benevolently 'explain' and correct my thinking. 'Don't think like that.'
'Women includes black women and black 'people' just means black men'. Hello! I have to bend my self in knots trying to fit into feminism and not feel left out whenever black people are mentioned and stated to be doing better than me. Then I'm told how divisive I am for not seeing things the same way as the rest of the 99% white web forum.

I think feminism is just not for me. Too limited to the generic 'women'. Black womens perspective is not really included because we see things differently. There is no generic woman.
When I see prominent feminists ranting about how great things are for gays and blacks and how many advances they made compared to women I have no idea why the hell they think that. I'd rather be a white woman than a black man anyday.
Maybe feminists need to stop doing that. Everytime it happens this happens. Stop saying that blacks and gays have it better. They don't. 1/4 of women get raped while 1/3 of black men get prison and possible rape and definate violent abuse, and many of those raped women are black and fall under black people who supposedly have it better than 'women'.

Now. Women need to stop voting republican so that all women have access to abortions. Black and gay men vote democratic for you and me. Feminists need to work on women. White women vote for republicans over half the time. We black people do not have the numbers to make up those white female votes.

I'm sorry your friend is having such a hard time. I know a good place in California. I have a friend there who has used it. If worse comes to worse, I can find the address.

I think women need to vote in their own interests and stop voting republican. The only way women are going to make any gains and stop the losses of our rights is for white women to stop voting republican. That is the only group of listed marginalized people who refuse to stop voting in anti women candidates.

Black women always feel marginalized even by white women. I wish they's stop the 'women and black people', thing.

[prayin4rain]

53. If women had more power, do you think racism would decrease? n/t

[bravenak]

58. No.

[azmom]

66. No

[boston bean]

54. Ok, I hear what you are saying, but take it a step beyond, or try to..

If all were equal between black and white, you would still have black women being equal with white women and black men being equal with white men.

This proves itself as it stand today. You can't be stating that sexism does not exist between black men and women...

So, if we look at the statement that Madonna made in that context, it would make more sense? Or maybe not??

[bravenak]

57. I'm not stating that sexism does not exist. Just that it's not worse than racism.

My point is that both have to be done at the same time. If things were equal between the sexes, then black men and women would still be far under white men and women, expecially when you add in the lack of income that prisoners recieve. For black women the wage gap still leaves the race gap and vice versa. That is why she does not make sense. Everything must be taken into account. And black women just do not believe it when it is said that women includes us when black 'peopke' are separated out.
In order to agree with her statement i have to ignore parts of who I am.

[boston bean]

59. I don't think that is what Madonna said either.

In looking at this from a very wide view, fighting sexism and misogyny is last on everyone's list.

And the funny thing is, is it exists everywhere in all groups, and effect all women of every strata, race etc.

[prayin4rain]

49. Agreed. n/t

[bigwillq]

2. Women have more rights than gays, imo

At least a straight woman can legally marry in all 50 states, unlike the gays.

[cali]

9. I'll say it again, we are seeing advances in rights for the LGBT community- it's likely that

marriage will be expanded by the SCOTUS. We are seeing setbacks for women. Without reproductive freedom, women do have full rights and reproductive freedom is being legally curtailed each day. For most women, abortion rights no longer exist.

[gollygee]

7. Uhm, no

Certainly women face discrimination, and as an aging woman in the entertainment industry I have no doubt she's feeling it, but no, we don't have it worse. And she forgets that there are women of color, gay women, and gay women of color who are dealing with the same stuff she's dealing with and more.

I do at the same time agree with Cali that women's rights are going backward while rights for others seem to be advancing at least somewhat. Still, I don't think we're worse off. We do need to stop the backward movement though.

Edited again: African Americans are also seeing their rights move backward, for instance the end of the Voting Rights Act.

[cali]

10. I'm amazed that no one in this thread aside from me has noted the huge setbacks for women

when it comes to reproductive freedom. And without reproductive freedom, women don't have full rights.

[gollygee]

11. I edited after seeing your other posts.

[cali]

15. thanks. I find it disturbing that there seems to be an almost casual acceptance of

fact that women's rights are being abrogated. Even here.

[steve2470]

12. you are correct of course

I wish Madonna had framed things a bit differently, including other communities as well.

[boston bean]

19. She didn't say white women, she said women. Which includes all women including trans women.

I'm not sure how much more inclusive it could be.

[steve2470]

22. yes, she did say women

No argument from me, women are still oppressed worldwide and in the USA. I just see her statement as a bit divisive. I understand her intent and her passion. I just wish she had framed things a bit differently, including other communities besides women.

[boston bean]

24. I understand. I guess it all depends on where one sits on the spectrum, no?

Many black persons feels that race is more of a negative impact in their own lives than their sex.

This is where I get a little off the trail of intersectionality. Because women includes all races and age. Saying women is not a diminishment of racial discrimination people are subject to.

It is measured differently even by those who fit in the both groups.

In my eyes, these bigotries all stem from the same place, and the solutions also will come from the same place.

We all need to be on the same page, and I will agree, cognizant of how people in all groups feel. But discussion of one should not diminish the discussion of others. And to me sometimes intersectionality creates divisions versus brining people together. I am not saying it doesn't have a place in the discussion and ti does bring value, but it can derail it sometimes too.

[seabeyond]

42. lately. any time we have a woman speak out.... people attack her for what she didnt say,

and then once that point is made, they say.... i wish she was more clear.

that they should have said it different.

maybe..... we can address the actual words being said. instead of creating our own unique dialogues.

when she says women, she IS including ALL women communities.

[RobinA]

62. I'm Surprised

no one has admonished every one who disagrees with Madonna that they are not allowed to comment on Madonna's lived experience.

[tblue37]

16. It isn't a competition. Statements like this just create tension and divide

marginalized groups who should be working together against oppression.

Besides, last time I looked, about half of the African American population were women, and all lesbians and quite a few bisexuals and transgendered persons were also women.

[steve2470]

17. yes I agree nt

[Orsino]

29. Yeah. I could agree that women are certainly the largest marginalized group in America...

...but misery poker is not helpful or verifiable.

It is probably true that Madonna is reviled principally gecause of her gender, but her case isn't typical. The most important point in her argument should be the vast numbers of women who seem to be getting murdered because they are women.

[mythology]

39. Yep

Trying to measure one person's or one group's pain against another's isn't helpful. Yes legislative or other aid resources are finite, but pitting groups against each other isn't helpful as it doesn't foster cooperation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. Take it from the world's wealthiest recording artist.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/02/luxury/richest-recording-artists/

[LanternWaste]

21. It certainly helps to pretend the exception proves the rule.

It certainly helps to pretend the exception proves the rule.

[trumad]

23. I knew you'd be along....

Clockwork!

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. Perhaps you should pawn some armor...

... and send the proceeds her way.

[trumad]

51. you really can't help yourself can you?

[prayin4rain]

25. Quit whining, woman. Your perspective is not valid.

When the rights of marginalized groups are brought up here or anywhere else, no civilized person rolls their eyes and tells the person how dumb they are and how unimportant their plight is. ...UNLESS they are talking about women's rights. Then, it's open season. And when women's rights are brought up somewhere less civilized than this board, the woman is called a hysterical cunt banshee who should be raped..... if she weren't so ugly. Women's rights are the final frontier.

[leftyladyfrommo]

30. I'm afraid you are right.

I see so many woman who maybe have good jobs or even really good jobs and they still put up with the most amazing shit at home. And it's across all races and religions and doesn't matter where you live. Women have it so much better here than some other countries but it still very much a rich, white, male dominated society that we live in.

Women are in more danger in their homes from abusive spouses than they are anywhere else.

Women have been slaves forever. A lot of young women don't see it but they are still very much sexual slaves.

[trumad]

35. Oh yeah---

And the MRA trolls will come a runnin- It's like a trumpet goes off calling them in. Just watch---teh usual's will be here shortly.

[seabeyond]

43. right on. nt

[stevenleser]

26. There is a tendency for every discriminated against group to see their condition as worst.

Pushing that as "The" issue by any member of one of them ends up being extremely divisive as we can see here.

There is no comparison, IMHO, between the status of the LGBT community and women. I can say that as not a member of either group. The LGBT community faces far worse discrimination than women as a whole and yes I know that the L in LGBT is all women and the B and the T is partly comprised of women.

Saying women as a whole face worse discrimination than African Americans is also not something I think that you can fairly say. I think it's actually pretty close and when I say close, I mean the discrimination and bias is close to equally bad for both. The election of one black male as President doesn't mean that there is equality for African Americans or that it has suddenly become much better. That is a right wing construct that I hope I am not seeing here.

As bravenak noted, black men are being either imprisoned or killed in shocking numbers. And the discrimination in hiring before an African American even gets a chance to sit down in front of an interviewer is also shocking. http://thinkprogress.org/education/2014/06/25/3452887/education-race-gap/

In the face of that you can't say the conditions for African Americans here are notably better than for women.

[boston bean]

27. You said it as not being a member of either group.

That makes you somewhat more qualified to make these declarations?

I'm just laughing and kidding here...

I will say that black men are paid higher a higher wage them black women, no? Where and how does inequality come in to play? Can we say it is race based or sex based bigotry?

I think it all depends on what discrimination we are discussing. Women of all races and ages experience objectification, rape culture, less bodily autonomy, lower wages and a slew of other issues. Those exist regardless of which race one is.

I will agree that there is an inequality of wages amongst women based on race as well. It's a double whammy.

But overall when discussing sex based discrimination all women face it to a degree. And a rising tide for women will lift all women, imho.

[bravenak]

28. He is a black man.

White women make MORE than black men on average. The racial wage gap is higher than the gender wage gap. I make more than a hispanic man as a black woman. That is because of the racial wage gap.
Blacks experience discrimination fromwhite men AND women. Black men get misidentified all the time by white women. They sit on juries that convict innocent men. They vote republican which is anti women in large numbers. Black men do not vote against the interests of women.
Black women will not rise with white women unless race is addressed. Period. We never do.

[boston bean]

33. I don't think that anything I have written would lead you to believe

that I don't understand and agree with you.

I think I wrote about a racial wage gap, yet there is a gap amongst men and women in there as well. Much of it can be attributed to sex based discrimination. That was my point.

[stevenleser]

31. The black men who aren't in prison or dead who manage to get hired earn a slightly higher wage?

That's a lot of qualifications, three if I am counting correctly, and you haven't accounted for them in your argument.

[boston bean]

34. And the three women a day murdered by their husband or boyfriend?

I mean this could go on and on.

It's all wrong... And each deserve to be discussed and worked on.

[cali]

36. bingo. This crap is sooo counterproductive, but some people indulge themselves in it endlessly.

[stevenleser]

40. I agree 100% with your last sentence. It's all wrong and all bad.

But I can't say there is any obvious daylight between how bad it is for women and how bad it is for the African American community. It's bad for both with seeming tremendous amount of inertia pushing against making progress.

[boston bean]

41. I will agree and wish we could come together. Not be further pushed apart.

[RedCappedBandit]

44. I don't think it's worthwhile to divide these groups.

She has a point that the LGBTQ community has gained some ground while women's rights are regressing. The AA community has lost much recently as well. Native Americans have always been shit on and that hasn't changed a bit. Women are a part of all these groups. All people facing oppression and their allies should stand together. I don't think it's necessary or effifacious to frame it in a divisive manner as if it's a competition, at least when you're looking at the most oppressed groups together.

[valerief]

45. Has she been to Ferguson at all???? Hell, I know women are chattel in most of the world,

even if not officially, but the slavery that goes on with AAs in the US is frightening. Stop trying to divide us, Madonna. It's everyone vs. the white male billionaire and his Kardashianesque family.

[trumad]

52. Divide...

Too funny.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

55. I've never cared for 'oppression olympics'.

I think you need to recognize the trials faced by all marginalized groups, not waste time trying to 'one-up' other groups by going on about how you have it worse.

[CANDO]

60. For God's sake...

Don't go shitting in the swimming pool. Marginalized groups everywhere love to play the oppression olympics. Secondly, they love to browbeat the hell out of anyone challenging anything(even in the slightest) they said. It's their oppression, and by fucking Dog, don't mess it up for them!

[demmiblue]

63. FFS

I think Discussionist, FR or CC may be more to your liking.

P.S. I don't think the sarcasm tag means what you think it means.

[CANDO]

65. Lighten up!

FFS! Been a member here since 2002. And I'll use the tags wherever and however I choose. And let you decide what they meant.

[mwrguy]

61. Madonna is full of shit

[Kurska]

64. And the next competitor in the oppression olympics is...

Seriously arguing over who is the "most oppressed" is an exercise in division that merely weakens all the groups involved, ironically making it easier to the powers that be to continue oppressing them.