Gaza Rebuild Effort Could Take 100 Years: Oxfam

[eridani]

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/02/27/gaza-rebuild-effort-could-take-100-years-oxfam

Despair and destruction continue to envelop the blockaded Gaza strip, where the rebuilding of vital structures could take up to a century, Oxfam International has warned.

The organization's statement comes six months after a ceasefire agreement ended Israel's 50-day assault on Gaza, which left over 2,100 Palestinians dead, decimated thousands of structures, and weakened already damaged infrastructure systems.

Oxfam is one of 30 international aid agencies that operate in Gaza, including the Norwegian Refugee Council and United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), to issue a joint statement Thursday expressing alarm at the slow pace of reconstruction and worsening living conditions for Gaza's residents.

Among the families hit by the destruction this summer was that of Abdel Momen Abu Hujair, who farms in Johr El-Diek. His wife, Um Mohammed, told the Norwegian Refugee Council:

Is this what our lives have come into? Living in a shack after we invested all what we had to build a house? I am very depressed and feel unable to take care of my children. I used to help them with their studies; their performance at school is now deteriorating. I feel no hope for the future or reconstruction. I am afraid we will spend the rest of our lives in this shack, in suffering and despair.

[Scootaloo]

1. What's it going to take for the US to stop enabling this?

[mwrguy]

2. Actually it will take forever

Since Israel will keep bombing it every time it starts to get back on its feet.

[former9thward]

3. Maybe instead of firing missiles into Israel

they should use that money for infrastructure.

[COLGATE4]

4. Instead it's used to build new tunnels to

infiltrate Israel for the next round of attacks.

[eridani]

8. Idiotic to assume that Gaza is any sort of military threat to Israel

Homemade science project rockets are dangerous only in the sense that kids kicking the back of the driver's seat is dangerous. Pretty much an expression of helpless rage that they have no say in where the car os going.

[Scootaloo]

10. Now hold up...

Hamas' rockets are dangerous. They can sure as fuck kill you. They're flying pipe bombs, basically. While they're hardly the "existential threat" some claim, they're not cap guns, either.

[eridani]

11. Ans they are not the equivalent of having an army, navy and air force either n/t

[Scootaloo]

12. I'm just saying, don't pretend that rockets are harmless nothings

it doesn't help the argument you're trying to make, it actually hinders it.

[eridani]

13. They are harmful in the way that kids kicking the back of the driver's seat are harmful

That could distract the driver and cause a wreck. They are periodic expressions of helpless rage from people who can't afford serious weapons.

[Scootaloo]

14. They're flying pipe bombs. They're weapons

They might be weak weapons, but they're still weapons and still more than capable of killing and maiming. Comparing them to kids being distracting in the back seat of the car is obtuse and ignorant, and does nothing to bolster a pro-Palestinian position (I wil lassume that's where you stand?) In fact it weakens it, because it gives Team Apartheid the "LOL FUCKING PALESTINIAN-LOVERS SAY ROCKETS ARE HARMLESS!!!!" argument.

Yes, they are mostly futile. No they are not an existential threat. They've been craned up to this ludicrous hyperbolic height by propagandists, but the solution to that isn't to go equally hyperbolic in the other way (hypobolic?). It's to tell the truth. and the truth is, these are weapons that pose real danger to people, but are not nearly on the scale that propaganda says.

[eridani]

17. Relative to Israel, the military power of the people in Gaza is exactly that of

--kids kicking the driver's seat. Sure rockets are weapons that can harm, but the harm aerial bombardment does is 10,000 times worse.

[Scootaloo]

20. Well, you weren't talking about military power, rahter specific weapons

Seriously, on this topic, one has to be specific. It's too easy to trip up because most of the people who are engaged are really engaged and usually have a sharp eye to knock over each other's arguments.

Relative military strength? Israel has the 11th strongest military on earth. Palestine has the military firepower of the Crips circa 1991, which was probably somewhere below that of Vanuatu. I will wager there are posters in the RKBA forum who have more firepower in their basements than Palestine has within its claimed borders. I would liken their strength to whining childen in the back seat, morethan kicking children in the back seat.

Relative military strength is a different thing from the harmfulness of specific weapons, however.

Now, if you wanted to say that, oh, Israel's Iron Dome system seriously lessens the actual threat value of rockets, that's true... and it's something the other guys seem to acknowledge (the topic has gone from "people killed by rockets" to "rockets fired," after all.)

I'm just saying, don't add to the bullshit brushfire with claims that rockets themselves are harmless.

[AngryAmish]

32. Then why even bither to do it?

Oh, their pride is hurt. Their problem is they are a teibal people in the 21st century. They are being left behind and can't understand why.

[COLGATE4]

15. Yes, that's exactly what the Israelis say. Silly people -

they actually have bomb shelters. Can you imagine that?

[Scootaloo]

9. People deserve to suffer for corrupt regimes?

Interesting.

[eridani]

18. The corruption of the PLO is exactly why Gaza voter for Hamas

Plenty of things wrong with Hamas, but corruption isn't one of them.

[Scootaloo]

22. There's plenty of corruption in Hamas

The problem with the PLO is that its leaders were very willing ot pawn off Palestine for financial kickbacks from Israel and the United States, all while squeezing money out of Palestinians to boot. Hamas is still carrying on the extortion of Palestinians, but at least they don't seem willing ot sell off Palestine like Abbas was (He's tried to make some noise about being a tough dealer now, but the onus has stuck on him.)

They might be corrupt in different ways (and in terms of finance, yes, likely lesser ways - I wouldn't trust the PLO with a piggy bank) but they're still corrupt.

[eridani]

29. That's pretty relative. Hamas is an elected government after all

Not liking them is no excuse for the destruction of Gaza.

[former9thward]

19. Yeah, like sending teenagers strapped with bombs

into teenager pizza joints in Jerusalem is really going to bring down a "corrupt regime". Got it.

[Scootaloo]

21. That's an interesting comparison and i'm glad you made it

The people who blew up the sbarro pizzeria in 2001, whatever their goals, certainly did nothing to bring down a corrupt regime - Ariel Sharon stayed right where he was. In fact, that attack probably gave the guy a poll boost.

So, strapping explosives to a teenager and sending them into Jerusalem to kill 15 people and injure 130 in a bomb blast obviously did nothing to further any sort of regime-topping goal that may have been present. In retrospect it likely bolstered that regime instead.

So. if we take another teenager, and strap him into the cockpit of a plane loaded with explosives, and send him over Gaza city to help kill twenty-one hundred people and injure eleven thousand or so and reduce entire portions of the city to rubble in bomb blasts... Will this therefore accomplish the toppling of a regime?

No. Turns out that Hamas doesn't actually take any political repercussions from Gazans being slaughtered, any more than Kadima took a hit from Israelis being slaughtered. In fact, much as with the Israeli government, it gets boosted, as a beset people "rally around the flag," so to speak.

So. Again. does punishing the people - killing them in large numbers, to be specific - as punishment for the corrupt regimes that rule them, actually help free them from those regimes?

[former9thward]

23. To answer your last question, No.

But Israel has not been doing that. Israel above all other armies in the world tries to avoid civilian casualties. They phone people in buildings they are about to attack, that have Hamas rocket installations that are firing at Israel, and tell them to leave. No other military in the world does that.

[Scootaloo]

24. Really, then why are you defending it in #3?

When seeing the massive devastation laid upon Gaza - a suffering endured en masse by the people of Gaza, your response was, of course to go "But hamas...!"

Your argument then, appears to be that the presence of Hamas justifies such mass devastation being levied against the people of Gaza. And yes, it is the people of Gaza who are suffering, and most of that suffering is a result of the devastation of the bombings laid on Gaza by Israel.

So. Seeing as we are in agreement that this devastation actually does nothing whatsoever to topple or even significantly weaken Hamas - the stated goal of Israel during every such operation it has carried out since sealing Gaza up in 2006 - I want to know, why are you using Hamas to justify doing this? It makes no sense.

[former9thward]

25. Hamas is attacking Israel.

They hide their installations in civilian areas. So of course civilians who refuse to leave will suffer the consequences. What would happen if Mexico were lobbing missiles into San Diego? Do you think the U.S. would ignore it?

[Scootaloo]

26. As I said, you are justifying the devastation wreaked upon civilians

You even blame the victims, "who refuse to leave."

For your question, I first have a question.

Why would mexico be firing rockets at us?

Now, whether you have an answer for that or not, I don't think the US would respond by cordoning off Tijuana and flattening it.

[former9thward]

27. I totally disagree with your last sentence

so I guess we have to leave it at that. Nations have a right to defend themselves. I guess FDR should have turned the other cheek when Pearl Harbor happened...

[Scootaloo]

28. I know. You would have to, since "yes" is the only answer that gives your position a pass

And you're here seeking justification for your position, rather than actually trying to engage in an honest discussion of the subject. You want someone to pat you on the head and tell you that yes, it's okay to flatten cities and disperse entire populations in response to terrorism. But it's not. It's completely unreasonable, and to blame the victims of it is sadistic.

Nations do have the right to defend themselves. However, as we have established, Israel's bombing campaigns have done pretty much nothing to shut down or even weaken Hamas. If the goal is defense, the efforts seem horribly ineffective and even counterproductive to that goal.

Further, Hamas is a criminal organization and not a state. The US does not level Compton to deal with violence from the Crips and Bloods. Nor have we engaged in any bombing campaigns against Honduras or El Salvador in response to the shit MS13 pulls in this country.

Finally, Palestine, including Gaza, is one entity, and legally, that entity is under occupation. Occupying states do not have the right to use military force against the people they are occupying; if there is an occupation, the war is considered over, and peacekeeping falls to police action. That Israel has decided to abrogate its peacekeeping responsibilities in Gaza does not actually alleviate them if their responsibilities as an occupying power.

All of these factors make Pearl harbor quite a different thing from what Hamas does. Pearl Harbor was state action against another state. It was clearly a military action, and not a criminal one (seriously, attacking first wasn't illegal in 1941). And once Japanese holdings and eventually Japan itself were occupied, military action ceased, and a combination of military and civilian police forces managed the occupation peacekeeping. So too in Germany under Allied occupation.

[former9thward]

31. Did Compton or L.A. have an election and put the C & Bs in charge of government?

Gaza did. Hamas certainly is the state and in charge of government. Now you say Israel is "horribly ineffective". Wow, trying to have to both ways. Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties, (and those civilians who hate Jews and wish to kill all of them), more than any military in world. And now you say they are "ineffective" as a result. Yes, they could be more effective if they did not tell civilians in advance of an attack on Hamas positions they could be more effective. And you would be first in line to condemn them.

[FLPanhandle]

5. Both side are to blame for this

Hamas are idiots and enable Israel by provoking attacks.

Israel is selfish and oppressive.

Neither side is holding the moral highground here.

[Trillo]

33. That's kinda what I was thinking.

Hopefully you and I are wrong.

[DFW]

6. It doesn't need to take that long

East Germany was a total basket case, as was much of Eastern Europe in 1990. Not as devastated as Gaza, but a major portion of a continent covering a huge amount of land and population. Gaza is a tiny sliver with less than 2 million population. All they need is peace and a tiny fraction of the money. The money is there, but the peace is not, and nor will they get it. Hamas doesn't survive among a peaceful, prosperous contented population. Like our Republicans, they thrive on poverty, ignorance, religion and fear (it's no coincidence that 150 years after the civil War, the South remains our poorhouse). If Mississippi were as educated and as prosperous as Massachusetts, the Republicans wouldn't stand a chance there, either. Fear and religious fanaticism keep Gaza where it is. Otherwise, with their location, they could be the Monte Carlo of the Middle East within twenty years. Plenty of Gazans know that, too, but they're all on boats to Lampedusa because they know what their reward would be for opening their mouths and saying so at home.

[flying rabbit]

16. Excellent analysis. nt

[woo me with science]

7. We helped pay for this.

Our money. Instead of for libraries or schools, infrastructure, food for hungry kids. Instead of all the things our own nation desperately needs. Our money, handed out by our corrupt politicians to do this to trapped human beings. We paid for it.

[malaise]

30. And the war criminal who orchestrated the destruction

will be welcomed in the US Congress this week - all for peace, freedom and democracy.