ISIS, and the theroy that all they need are jobs.

[NM_Birder]

All ISIS members need are jobs. I've read a few posts, a story or two, even heard this boloney on the "news" once or twice.

So I'm going to try and understand where exactly these ideas are coming from, is there anyone who actually believes that if ISIS radicals had jobs, the terrorism would stop?

What "job" is someone who straps a bomb to another person and sends them out to blow themselves up qualified for ? I've seen the "unemployment is the cause" comment once or twice, but never have I seen anyone actually try and explain. Bear in mind we in the US are touting our *snicker snicker 5.8% unemployment rate, but still have a spiraling violence problem.

Second question, do you actually believe our unemployment rate is 5.8% ?

[Turbineguy]

1. IS is the lowest common denominator of human existence.

That's the attraction.

[Xyzse]

2. No, but it would help mitigate the radicalization of others.

Radicalization is sometimes like diabetes, once you're radicalized you're radicalized. Having jobs is considered as prevention.

Yeah, I know it is a stretch but seriously though, once someone is entrenched in a position it would take a long time or it would be improbable for them to budge on that. However, if they had other things to do and other more important things going on, like a job and some sort of stability, it would be harder for them to consider becoming an extremist.

Again, it doesn't mean that it would stop some outliers here and there, but it should help lessen the attraction towards extremism.

[el_bryanto]

5. Exactly

There are a certain number of people who are already radicalized; not much can be done about then. There is a larger group who could be radicalized, and helping the economy helps with that.

Why do people become radicalized; there are a number of factors (religion being one of them). But an important component has to be a feeling of powerlessness; whether that comes from having nothing to do, no job, no prospects, or whether that comes from feeling your government is completely non-responsive, or whether that comes from feeling your country was invaded and ruined by outside bullies, it's that bone deep sense of powerlessness that leads one to consider extreme solutions.

Bryant

[Xyzse]

9. That's pretty much it.

Prevention is key.

[Sherman A1]

22. Precisely

[Orsino]

11. Yes, indeed.

A potential recruit, or even a member who isn't all that radical, who saw a viable alternative to banditry that was relatively safer, is going to tend to lean toward safety and productivity.

Mainly, a system that offered full employment and representative government would make ISIL look ridiculous.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. ^this^

it is giving them a reason to live. it is giving their life ...worth.

[elehhhhna]

17. When nothing to gain becomes nothing to lose...

Happens fast, no turning back

[blm]

26. This shouldn't be too difficult to absorb. It's absurd for those so inclined to try and

make it a point of mockery, ala FOX.

[jwirr]

3. I think that the statement was made not in regard to ISIS so much as the young who are from

other countries who are listening to the recruitment videos. Either way I think more is needed than jobs.

[snagglepuss]

7. Where's the stats that the recruits don't have jobs?

[jwirr]

8. I think you need to ask that of the person who said it first. I was merely pointing out that this

was not said about ISIS.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. not sure but, is this in reference to this thread ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/122825475

[jwirr]

18. No. I did read that one but this is about those who are talking about stopping ISIS recruiting in

countries like our own with jobs. I just know that it was not speaking about giving the ISIS in the ME jobs. I was talking about the young kids who are bored and would like to make some money in our won country. That is who I think the jobs idea was being addressed to.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. yes, OK. thanks. n/t

[randome]

4. A better economy makes for a more peaceful environment so there's that.

But then the question becomes: who is responsible for giving jobs to those in the Middle East and that leads to trade disputes, America-firsters, etc. so this thread is likely to devolve pretty quickly, I think.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[snagglepuss]

6. The comments you refer to take absurdity and studipity to a whole new level

everything but blame Islam for being a flawed ideology. Flawed because it is a human creation and therefore fallible. It ain't no last word of a deity, it is not even the word of a deity it is the product of human imagination.

[el_bryanto]

14. So Islam is the sole cause of middle eastern terrorism? Does that seem logical? nt

[snagglepuss]

19. The OP is about ISIS not about MidEast terrorism

That said one can defintitely place blame on religion for instance the idiocy of the Jewish belief that their deity got involved with real estate deals, a belief that has created the hell hole we see today in the Mideast.

[el_bryanto]

20. So Islam is the soul cause of ISIS than? Sorry I wasn't more clear. nt

[snagglepuss]

24. Yes ISIS is the fault of a religion that sets itself up as the

final word of one existing deity and maintains its holy book to have been dictated line by line to a human from god through an angel. Those idea create arrogance. One wpuld have thought the Abrahamic god would have learnt by then that instilling arrogance is not the way to go.

Where in the Koran are there qualifiers? For instance where does it tell its followers not to make graven images but respect the images other people create? NO FUCKING WHERE.

Where does it say not to enslave enemies? No fucking where, in fact it condones enslaving enemies. The list goes on. ISIS is simply reading the Koran the way it was written. And the Koran itself states that what tis written in it is not to be read metaphorically.

[hifiguy]

27. Eeyup.

The faults lie primarily in the multiple, universally false and ludicrously contradictory claims of imbecilic Iron Age fairy tales.

[el_bryanto]

32. So what is your plan to deal with Islam?

What steps should we take? I should note here that I am a Christian, and I assume your critiques of Islam also apply to Christianity?

Also if the Koran is such an unmitigated evil book, why aren't more Muslims joining ISIS? Why do the bulk of Muslims condemn ISIS?

And why is that more practical than say providing more economic opportunities in the Middle East, as a way of reducing the number of potential recruits to ISIS?

Bryant

[snagglepuss]

36. "unmitigated evil book" Those are your words not mine. I simply state that the Koran like EVERY

other holy book is the creation of human imagination and therefore fallible and flawed. The fact that it is flawed doesn't mean that it is evil or doesn't contain some good. All these books have been created by male humans who wanted to organize their societies to suit their own ideas of how an ideal society should be organized. Each religion invoking a deity to give what men created the illusion that a supernatural power was responsible for what got produced.


As for lack of economic opportunity being responsible for this heinous group of vile murderous shitheads please provide some evidence.

Countless people over the centuries have been horribly oppressed and they have not done what ISIS is doing.

[el_bryanto]

39. You didn't really answer my questions other than to quibble at my wording

But ok - let's let that go.

Here's my point; the people who are already part of ISIS are a lost cause - they need to be dealt with (killed or incarcerated, and I'm not hopeful for incarceration). I'm not a military expert, and don't know the best way to do that, but they need to be dealt with.

There is a larger group of people who might be drawn to ISIS because of lack of opportunity and a feeling of powerlessness. Whether that's caused by economic distress, or political distress, or the fact that their country has been invaded, they feel like they can't accomplish what they want without extreme measures. ISIS is offering extreme measures.

While our own street gangs and organized criminals have not been as vicious as ISIS, there's no question that when there is a lack of opportunity in a community, they tend to grow. So in order to drain the swamp you do what you can to provide more hope to the people in those communities - they try to improve their lot within the system, rather than feeling that there's no hope beyond extreme or criminal solutions.

Now I don't know what steps you want to undertake other than killing ISIS and condemning Islam (and other religions) on message boards. You haven't said. But I think if we do have a strategy for eliminating the threat of ISIS it should involve both taking out current members of ISIS and making it more difficult for them to recruit by improving the lot of people in that area.

Bryant

[blm]

10. That's a pretty moronic, FOX way of assessing what was actually said.

Try again.

[NM_Birder]

12. OK let me clarify it for you, didn't think it was that complicated.

And no need for your fox news comment, so save it.

If jobs are the key to lowering the recruitment rate into ISIS, what if any role do you think the US should play in creating said jobs to stem the recruitment into ISIS.

[arcane1]

23. An excellent book called "Harvest of Rage" connects unemployment to the militia movement

Our version of home-grown terrorist. The destruction of the family farm pissed off a lot of people.

[arcane1]

16. You need to remember that most industries in Iraq were sold off to foreign owners

And they are under no obligation to hire Iraqi citizens, whether good pay or bad.

You are grossly over-simplifying a complex issue. This didn't start overnight. It's been building since 2003.

[LanternWaste]

25. Abject, generational poverty breeds both crime and terrorism.

Abject, generational poverty breeds both crime and terrorism. This premise is a truism among published academics. Though it may take some time wading through reading material, the explanations are indeed and in fact, there; regardless of whether one under-qualified individual feels it's "boloney" (sic) or not...

That being said, simply giving one a pizza delivery job or a career as a night-time security guard is hardly comprehensive reform. Simplistic ideas are only for simplistic minds and bumper-stickers as real world applications tend to be both more complex and more nuanced than the dogmatic mind may allow for.



(Phantom Terror: Political Paranoia and the Creation of the Modern State, 1789-1848 by Adam Zamoyski; Growing Up Palestinian: Israeli Occupation and the Intifada Generation, by Laetitia Bucaille; Political Murder: From Tyrannicide to Terrorism by Franklin L. Ford; Logics of History: Social Theory and Social Transformation by William H. Sewell Jr.)

[Agnosticsherbet]

28. The surprising appeal of ISIS (Boston Globe)

The surprising appeal of ISIS
The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, or ISIS, smashed its way into the world’s consciousness earlier this month when it seized Mosul and the Beiji oil refinery in Iraq. Starting last fall, ISIS began imposing its theocratic rule over a wide swath of Syria, then quickly wrested control of the emblematic Iraqi cities of Fallujah and Ramadi. With the more recent attacks, it menaced the government in Baghdad; it also forced President Obama to reengage with a war from which he thought he had extricated the United States.

In trying to explain ISIS’s rapid success, alarmed observers have pointed to the extreme tactics that drew condemnation even from Al Qaeda: mass executions, beheadings, and crucifixions. Some see local conspiracies, believing Arab governments allowed the group to grow in order to justify their own heavy-handed crackdowns. Others suggest that Shi’ite Iran indirectly funded the movement as part of its own strategy to divide the Sunnis from within.

Most analysts predict that ISIS’s conduct will ultimately limit its future: They say it has no meaningful political program or ability to form a state, and its extremist views will alienate the people who live under its rule.

But that view of ISIS’s success and prospects overlooks one key element. A look at both ISIS’s written edicts and its tactics suggest that the group has gotten one important thing right: It has created a clear—and to some, compelling—idea of citizenship and state-building in a region almost completely bereft of either.

[jollyreaper2112]

29. There's always going to be psychos out there

The question is whether the psychos are able to indulge. You take a look at any situation where normal society is pushed to extremes, you'll see where the psychos come out. Take a bunch of draftees and put them in a war, you'll see who comes up with the idea of taking ears off the dead. They're probably the guys who would have ended up in jail over some psycho shit if that war had never happened. Now the situation may push normal people to have to kill and kill ugly at that but they never would have sought the situation out. They'd never have thought of robbing an old couple in the first place. But the psycho, he's the one who will not only be robbing the couple but decide to start cutting on them, too.

Now, in the normal course of events, that psycho is going to get caught and put in jail. In wartime? That kind of shit is useful for the brass, here's a soldier who will fight. Psycho shit becomes normalized. Psycho shit becomes part of the program for a large organization of people rather than just the aberrant behavior of one lunatic.

If there wasn't an ISIS, the worst of the jihadi fucks would be in jail in their homelands. We're talking the nuts who can't control their own violent urges. The opportunistic psychos, they're the ones who have enough control to not risk bad behavior for fear of consequences. Put them in an environment where they can indulge their worst impulses and suffer no consequences, they'll act out.

There's a lot of nice, normal people who have been pushed too far and are providing the support that keeps the terrorists in the field. That's the way it works in these cases. Irish-Americans sending money back to the IRA, British muslims supporting the idea of jihad, Americans of all stripes supporting the war on communism because it seemed right even though it mostly amounted to heaping piles of dead peasants in various third world shitholes...

I mean just think about it. In what sort of context could being able to saw the head off a struggling victim be considered a valuable job skill? Where in the fuck could this skill get you gainful employment? Zeta gangs in Mexico, ISIS in the Middle East. It's not a party trick that's going to impress anyone in a sane part of the world.

[cilla4progress]

30. Just finished reading an extensive Atlantic article on ISIS

Highly recommend it.

Some thoughts:

ISIS is relying on a literal, "old Testament" version of the Koran. Much like Orthodox Judaism (is it accurate that there has been a refusal to sit next to a woman on an airplane?; Bibi's exhortation to European Jews to immigrate to Israel), or Roman Catholicism (anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-birth control), or Christianity (see Catholicism above), ISIS adherents retain elements of a medieval version - or earlier - of their religion. So we should not find this such an unfamiliar landscape. Though Judeo-Christianity has, as a religion, dispensed with the violent elements of the Old Testament, stonings and the Crusades, for example, I would argue elements of these still exist in the societies founded on the Old Testament, and, for other reasons as well (i.e., oil), violence perpetrated against non-believers continues.


My family hosted a young Muslim woman exchange student from Afghanistan, who defected to Canada. What I learned from her is that in many ways social structures and technology at home were relics of an age we would not recognize. Though fully integrated and adapted, and completely non-violent as well as tolerant and accepting of cultural differences, her faith experience and practices retain what many here might consider extreme, or at least, Old Testament: of course, praying 5 times a day; no depictions of animals in her room; headscarf (which over time became moderated); full coverage of her body - even in a hot tub with other of her Muslim exchange students! These are social mores. Her devotion to Allah and Muhammed was full-on.

I was surprised to learn from our student that Jesus is actually also a prophet in Islam, as are many others - Islam being an Abrahamic faith. The Atlantic article refers to this.

Brother against brother. Tale as old as time.

[Xyzse]

31. "surprised to learn from our student that Jesus is actually also a prophet in Islam"

I am actually surprised not many people know this.

From what I was told, Islam is a religion that came after Christianity, and they treat Jesus as a prophet, but Mohammed as the prophet that came after and therefore the "greater" or true Prophet. Where Jesus only reaches a certain level of Heaven, he goes further.

Not that I pay much attention to these types of things, but it is why they are called "Abrahamic" religions where Judaism, Christianity and Islam were from the tribe of Abraham.

[cilla4progress]

33. Yes, this is what I also learned

from our exchange student. Thank you. I highly recommend the Atlantic article. I am going to re-read it. Though it is chilling, there is also hope. I am still somewhat confused about where "moderate Muslims" stand ..

[Xyzse]

40. I enjoyed the read.

Thank you.

[moondust]

34. Theory started with al Qaeda radicals.

More than a decade ago. People were trying to understand the underlying reasons for Islamist radicalization and the rise of al Qaeda. Some theorized that one of the main reasons was large numbers of young men who were living under (wealthy) monarchies in the Middle East without jobs or other opportunities leading to marriage and prosperity. Thus they had a lot of idle time on their hands to be bitter and soak up the propaganda and culture of radicals and terrorists like OBL who conveniently scapegoated the West. Add to that some madrasas teaching the stuff, movement grows, and eventually BOOM!

Proverbs 16:27-29: Idle hands are the devil’s workshop...

[NM_Birder]

42. a bible verse,...really ?

"My god says your god in the wrong god, and all gods rejected by my god are to have their following destroyed,..... in the name of my god" ....... amen. Most all wars in history, are based on religious theology that can be presented in a manner that manipulates those that are desperate to believe.

ISIS appeals to religious radicals, unemployed or not. Religious extremism, murder, female dominance and genocide are what ISIS advertises, and the educated and ignorant alike are weak minded enough to admire this ideology.

Burning, beheading, destroying, raping, kidnapping, ransom, extortion, genocide, and now as predicted the destruction of historical record of "that other theology". People who join the ISIS ideology are not concerned with the promise of a good paying job. The people they are murdering probably are.

[closeupready]

35. This is such a well-founded, elementary factor in social deviance and criminal behavior that

I'm not going to even attempt to answer this here on a message board. Others more knowledgeable than me have already given some adequate responses.

But yes, there is plenty of hard research behind the idea that unemployment and economic stagnation breeds resentment, anger, terrorism, and criminal behavior.

[seveneyes]

37. What the world needs now is Love

Love, sweet Love...

[EX500rider]

38. "....but still have a spiraling violence problem."

I assume you mean spiraling down?


When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2013 estimated violent crime total was 12.3 percent below the 2009 level and 14.5 percent below the 2004 levels.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/violent-crime/violent-crime-topic-page/violentcrimemain_final

[NM_Birder]

41. You kinda missed the point of my thread,

But I do appreciate the link showing the significant decrease in violent crime. Puts mustard on the argument against pointless gun control measures.

Banning firearms and firearm accessories, is less productive than banning crime.
I am a firearm enthusiast, and always appreciate the rare occasion on DU when someone acknowledges that violent crime is down, regardless who much exposure every single firearm incident is given.