Documents show how Russia's troll army hit America

[BainsBane]

I came across the most interesting article. Now, you might have thought lots of people online suddenly looked into Putin's eyes and saw his soul, but it turns out there is a more formal campaign at work.

Russia’s campaign to shape international opinion around its invasion of Ukraine has extended to recruiting and training a new cadre of online trolls that have been deployed to spread the Kremlin’s message on the comments section of top American websites.

Plans attached to emails leaked by a mysterious Russian hacker collective show IT managers reporting on a new ideological front against the West in the comments sections of Fox News, Huffington Post, The Blaze, Politico, and WorldNetDaily.

The bizarre hive of social media activity appears to be part of a two-pronged Kremlin campaign to claim control over the internet, launching a million-dollar army of trolls to mold American public opinion as it cracks down on internet freedom at home. . . .

The documents show instructions provided to the commenters that detail the workload expected of them. On an average working day, the Russians are to post on news articles 50 times. Each blogger is to maintain six Facebook accounts publishing at least three posts a day and discussing the news in groups at least twice a day. By the end of the first month, they are expected to have won 500 subscribers and get at least five posts on each item a day. On Twitter, the bloggers are expected to manage 10 accounts with up to 2,000 followers and tweet 50 times a day.

Isn't he dreamy?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america#.rovr2LB0J

[NuclearDem]

1. That provides a lot of clarity of signal.

[BainsBane]

2. Indeed

Go west young man.

[greatauntoftriplets]

83. It's our Manifest Destiny!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

94. Oh him?

He's currently sitting at a tiki bar in Texas with Elvis.

[greatauntoftriplets]

95. Such a warrior he was!

[William769]

234. Was a pleasure to remove the sock.

[greatauntoftriplets]

236. Thank you!

That sock had been worn too many times.

[William769]

238. No problem.

We have a scanned a copy of the pattern.

[greatauntoftriplets]

240. Good!

He'll be back.

[zappaman]

3. big kick and rec!

Fuck Putin and fuck his bootlickers!

[BainsBane]

15. Agreed. Two things I cannot stand:

Comcast and Putin apology.

[BainsBane]

220. How many accounts to you have going right now?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

235. I didn't even get a chance to remember that name.

Malmouth the magnificent? Something like that?

[pintobean]

239. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=321132&sub=trans

[Nevernose]

4. Certainly explains some of the bizarre pro-Putin stuff

That I've read from commenters, even a few commenters here.

[Duckhunter935]

26. yes it does

[R B Garr]

5. This explains a lot! Thank you.

The Putin lovers are just not credible.

This makes a lot of sense.

[hrmjustin]

6. Well well well!

I wonder!

[BainsBane]

7. check out one of the assigned names

"Gay turtle." No shame whatsoever.

[hrmjustin]

9. I remember one I got into a fight with about Putin and he said gay issues were not important.

He was banned in the fall last year and his name began with a b but can't remember it.

[Glassunion]

17. I remember that poster...

Was it базука_88 or базука_87? I always get the two mixed up.

[hrmjustin]

18. No.

[Glassunion]

19. Woosh...

folks are too serious around here as of late.

[hrmjustin]

20. I got it but just didn't know how to respond.

[Glassunion]

21. When all else fails me, I post a kitten picture.

[hrmjustin]

22. Lol i love kittens.

[Glassunion]

23. It's a guranteed win... Every time.

Puppies will work in a pinch...


Or those rabbits that stick their tongue out...


If your really stuck, pigs can be used.


Lastly my personal favorite, the mighty chinchilla.

[hrmjustin]

24. They are all adorable.

[BainsBane]

35. I wouldn't relegate the little pig to last place

He's the cutest of all.

[NuclearDem]

39. IS THAT A BABY PIG OH MY GOD THAT'S THE CUTEST FUCKING THING EVER

[riqster]

41. I'll see your squee and raise you...

[IMG][/IMG]

[NuclearDem]

42. STOP I CAN'T HANDLE IT

WHY MUST I SQUEE SO

[riqster]

43. I'll give you squee, my pretty.

And your little dog, too.

[haikugal]

80. Very cute lambs you've got there...

LOL, Alpaca...Google baby alpaca and check out the neck difference. Both very cute, lambs and alpaca.

[Hekate]

267. They smile! I didn't know baby alpacas smiled!

How could you squee me so?

[riqster]

316. "Squee, Squee Me". A lost Beatles song, perhaps?

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

462. Squee, Squee Me, oh yeah, Like I Squee You!

[seabeyond]

313. lmFao, this thread has just turned into fun. they are all precious, though yes, that pig

was high on the list.

huge smile.

i have been mostly off du. real busy.

thanks all for the smiles.... in a mess of a thread.

[rpannier]

48. Forgot what u guys were talking about

but you win
The animals are too cute

[Jamastiene]

333. Squeeeee!

That is cuteness overload. I love it!

[LuvLoogie]

461. Muskie bait

[Duckhunter935]

27. awesome picture

[FSogol]

8. Don't they realize we are all laughing at their transparent attempts?

[MannyGoldstein]

10. I wonder if they pay better than Karl Rove and Rand Paul?

I'll have to check into this, I have a kid going to college in a few years.

Thanks for the tip!

[msanthrope]

177. Manny, if I have to meet up with you at Cornell legacy dinners, I don't know what I will do.

Where is the offspring considering?

[herding cats]

11. You think it's bad now, wait until Ukraine's 'Internet Army" is deployed!

Ukraine recruits Internet army to fight Russian trolls

The government says it needs to combat propaganda spreading from Russia. It has created special information forces and launched a website for volunteers.

"Many fronts have opened against us, and one of the crucial ones is the information front," said Ukraine's information minister Yuri Stec.

Russia annexed Crimea from Ukraine last year, and has been hit with Western sanctions for supporting armed separatists in eastern Ukraine.

"Now is the time to fight back against the Russian invaders on the information front," Stec said.

Anyone can join the virtual army through the website set up by the ministry. Enlisted "soldiers" then receive emails with tasks such as monitoring social media and taking on trolls by promoting Ukraine's messages in online discussions.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/25/technology/ukraine-russia-internet-army/

I read this earlier today and thought you may get a laugh out of it considering the timing. Sure, they're not going to have the $10 million to toss at the problem Russia has, but we're potentially going to see a real life war of words taking place before our very eyes.

[BainsBane]

12. I did laugh

Out loud in fact. Jesus. Leave us in peace, please people.

[herding cats]

16. We will know them by their sources...

Ukraine just announced plans to start their own television network called Ukraine Tomorrow, or UT for short. According to them it's to counterbalance the slanted reporting coming out of Russia from their Russia Today network, or RT for short. So, before long we're going to be having RT vs UT wars, too.

I kid you not. This is one of those cases of reality being more outlandish than fiction.

This is how it makes me feel.

[dreamnightwind]

434. Someone should go undercover, join and expose them

The more we learn about these kind of things, the better, you know similar things are being done on different issues domestically, who knows at what scale, I think we'd be shocked.

[hunter]

13. Sadly, it probably improves the overall quality of comments on "top American websites."

.

[BainsBane]

14. hate to break it to you

But those websites include this one. One has been PPR'd from here a few times. One of his incarnations was a member for a good while.

[Duckhunter935]

29. there are some new ones

lately

[BainsBane]

34. and still others who swallow their bulshit whole

[Duckhunter935]

36. oh yes, I know

[Cha]

50. If it's against "the West" and "America".. they're for it.. even though Putin is a despotic,

internet censoring, homophobic, aggressive land grabber.

[BainsBane]

56. You know, I never used to understand claims that people

hated America or "blamed America first." I've been highly critical of US foreign policy throughout my life. However, my opposition was based on evidence, not uncritical recitation of propaganda. And I certainly didn't then turn around and work to justify for another country what I opposed by the US. If someone claims to be anti-war, how can they then work to justify war by Russia? And why do they think opposing potential US intervention requires whitewashing Russia? Merely making a comment about Putin generates accusations that you are "pro-war." What kind of limited thinking imagines the only possibility is the US as the evil aggressor and Russia as the guys in white hats? It's like their whole vision of foreign policy is based on simplistic notions of good vs. bad guys from Hollywood movies.

[Cha]

57. Oh, they have their talking points down.. almost like

they're coordinated or something.

You can't bring up anything putin is doing because "The USA has done this and that." Well, sure we've been the bad guy but that sure as hell doesn't mean we can't discuss what the dic Putin is up to. Hilarious attempts to shutdown discussion. Got news for them.. it ain't workin'.

"And why do they think opposing potential US intervention requires whitewashing Russia?" Exactly, it would be funny if it weren't so tragically pathetic.. and they've got RT to help them with the purifying.. a news outlet that isn't even acceptable in LBN(wonder why?)

Thank you again, Bains~

[R B Garr]

60. Exactly! And apparently they lump Obama in with the neocons

from the Bush era even though Obama opposed the Iraq war. Here's the text of Obama's 2002 speech in opposition to Bush's war: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99591469

Of course the Putin lovers/Obama haters forget that the whole political climate at that time revolved around 9/11 and almost all politicians, right or wrong, were mindful of the polls that heavily supported military intervention. Bush and his overlords just inserted Iraq and WMD in the whole dialogue and nobody stopped them. Now some here are making it sound like Obama was in on the shock and awe strategy from the beginning. No!

There's an old saying, I think it's military: "overcome by events". Since there have been boots on the ground, however they got there, US foreign policy under Obama has been overcome by the events that are actually encountered in Iraq and the Middle East since 2003. You can't treat what's going on now based on what was going on in the beginning, yet there are a couple tag teams that spam threads with really worn out and inappropriate talking points about Bush era neocons. Not credible!

[Cha]

65. Oh, I know then State Senator Obama's speech well from Oct, 2002.. but, I actualy learned

about it after I decided to support him in the 2008 primary.

Are they really trying to insert the President into the neocons/bush' War On Iraq and lump him with those a$$bites?! Well, I guess.. of course they are.. they try to distort his history any way or time they can.

"...US foreign policy under Obama has been overcome by the events that are actually encountered in Iraq and the Middle East since 2003." And, intelligent people understand that.. like Senator Bernie Sanders..

"Bernie Sanders: You can slam Obama, but Bush’s ‘blunder’ created ISIS"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026274768

And, you can't "slam Obama" for ISIS unless you want to look like a ******* idiot.

Mahalo R B Garr

[Number23]

168. It's not that Russia is the guy in 'white hats'

I've gotten the impression that it's whoever or whatever country the USA is at odds with that must be supported.

So they'll support homophobes, white supremacists, 2 bit charlatans, despots and dictators, whatever because as long as the other entity despises the USA as much as they do, then they must be in the right.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

170. It's a bit of a contrarian reflex, IMHO.

Not to say that we don't have a lot to be criticized about. But some people are willing to glom on to criticism of the US even when the source of the criticism, such as Russia, is grossly hypocritical.

Of course, there are others that are just flat out Putin apologists. But those are rather few here at DU, fortunately.

[Number23]

174. I agree completely. The US has done so much stuff - both foreign and domestic - for which I don't

think it could ever atone.

But this really half assed idea that any country, any organization, any person that the US has a problem with must be in the right is the height of stupidity. I've lived and worked in many countries and for some to believe that "patriotism" is simply an American by-product is naïve and incredibly ignorant.

Most people in most countries, unless they've had to flee a country for political reasons, are incredibly patriotic even while recognizing its flaws. Criticism is fine but when you are using countries such as Russia to lob it, then you have turned a corner imo from criticism to just flat out hatred.

[BainsBane]

173. It certainly seems that way,

[MicaelS]

196. Some Americans think the US is the source of all evil in the world.

I think it is that simple. No matter what happens, or what another country or group does, the same memes get trotted out...

"The US dropped two Atomic Bombs on the Japanese"
"The US committed Genocide against the Native Americans"
"The US did, this and that"

[BainsBane]

199. I saw a thread

Where someone invoked the Dresden bombing as an example of how bad the US is. That confirmed what I have suspected all along: it doesn't matter how aggressive, genocidal or dangerous any actor or nation in the world is, they will always take their side over the US, even when the other side is Hitler. I think it's time we stop allowing these people to claim the term leftist.

[MicaelS]

203. I agree completely.

I have often wondered if the bomb has been available a year sooner and had been dropped on Berlin. Would those on the Left who decry the atomic bombing of Japan done the same for Germany?

[BainsBane]

215. Don't call them the left

No one who bemoans military action against Nazi Germany is leftist.

[MicaelS]

221. OK. Good point. n/t

[Katashi_itto]

281. Who elected you the arbiter of who is leftist?

Last edited Fri Feb 27, 2015, 09:11 AM - Edit history (4)

Personally I don't particularly care one way or the other about the bombings. It's history.

And My family was directly affected by the bombings.

My mother's side of the family was from Nagasaki, a family that had had generations of samurai, wiped out. My grandparents were the only survivors.

My fathers side lost everything in the siege of Malta. My grandmother went from having servants to being a seamstress in New York after the war.

Spare me your posturing.

[BainsBane]

284. Go ahead and call Hitler apologists leftist

if you want. No one is stopping you. The GOP certain does it.

[Katashi_itto]

286. Personally, I have yet to see anyone do that.

Frankly, its a so case by case deal, a blanket statement like yours, (but your good at that), is just jingoistic.

But then you were always itching to practice exclusion.

[BainsBane]

296. Nice of you to come into this thread

for the sole purpose of making personal insults. Clearly you have nothing to say about the Ukraine. People are dying in war, but you can't take a moment to reflect on any of that.

Exclusion. Coming from you, what a joke. You couldn't wait to exclude Mary Landreiu and the Democratic Party from government in Louisiana and made clear you planned to work for the same goal in 2016.

As someone who lives in New Orleans I must say I enjoyed staying home Sat. The waffles were great. Figure its practice for 2016.

Children going hungry for lack of food assistance and dying from lack of medical care in one of the poorest states in the country, and you couldn't wait to celebrate GOP victory.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025923345

Solidarity comes through a shared cause, not simply because people happened to sign up on a website.

[Katashi_itto]

382. tough

[Bonobo]

460. LOL. Bain thinks Kurt Vonnegut is a Hitler apologist because he decried what was done to Dresden. nt

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

463. Probably their other sock puppets or other like-minded trolls

[hunter]

116. I don't pay much attention to football, Russian Times, or most any US vs. THEM political gaming.

I avoid that sort of gaming, whatever form it takes here.

Russian antisemitism, anti-homosexual violence and opression, gangsterism, and general susceptibility to charismatic authoritarians are deeply offensive to me.

The Ukrainian culture is similar in many ways.

I can usually tell what people are promoting by the words they write.

Words that get people PPR'd are part of the process too.

I've been reading DU since the beginning, and posting here since early 2002. The storms of political sock puppets come and go. Even the most persistent among them don't seem to get much traction; reading some threads it's like they are all noisily debating with their own counterparts in some weird alternate sock-puppet universe that occasionally impinges on this one.

[Hekate]

25. Hello, Pooty, you dreamy bare-chested bear-wrestler. It had to be you, wonderful you.

Sarcasm off.

A lot of us here at DU had an inkling, didn't we?

[Nye Bevan]

28. Internet trolls spouting pro-Putin propaganda from sources like rt.com?

And solemnly blaming Putin's seizure of Crimea and invasion of Ukraine on the evil West?

Surely not!

[Cha]

31. They couldn't be any more Obvious if they tried!

[Codeine]

30. That pro-Putin poster may not be just another liberal,

but in fact a purveyor of Russian talking points, attempting to justify Russia's choice to go west. . .

[zappaman]

38. LOL!

[HERVEPA]

45. If there was a Parrot named Polly here with a cracker, she would disagree.

However there's a 20% chance that parrot could possibly be hiding 4 some reason

[BainsBane]

72. Make that five reasons

Someone really didn't like the news of Putin's PR campaign to justify his war on the Ukraine being made public.

[BainsBane]

223. Lies because they aren't approved by the Kremlin

Gotcha. No evidence, just a video, which doesn't address a single point raised in this thread. Funny how you never can.
How is Lyndon, by the way?

[uppityperson]

224. I am amused when zombies complain about DU. If you don't like it here, no one is making you sign up

There are lots of other websites and forums for your "honest people that seek the truth over people that obfuscate the truth for their own nefarious ends".

[R B Garr]

226. Exactly, nothing obfuscates the truth more than comparing DU'ers to McCain

as if he has any relevance. That's a dead giveaway that the rest of what polly has to say is bullshit, as well as the rest of her anti-American tripe.

[NuclearDem]

227. Why do people do this?

I mean, is waiting out a suspension really that difficult?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

237. My guess is that it was GWYM. nt

[BainsBane]

262. I don't think so

[stevenleser]

294. If not, a PPR is definitely coming. One thing the admins don't tolerate is a zombie acct when you

are on a forced vacation for hidden posts.

[pintobean]

295. "Repeat disruptor" is the reason MIRT gave for the PPR

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=321132&sub=trans

[BainsBane]

297. MIRT didn't do an IP check

They can't, but the administrators will.

[pintobean]

298. Are you praying?

[BainsBane]

300. I'll say this

You made a point of justifying her previous abusive behavior. She then of course when on to continue it with others. You saw evidence of that in the PM that Sid posted, which evidently was only one of several she sent yesterday.

[stevenleser]

305. She is definitely not capable of being a constructive member of the DU community at this point.

As I noted previously, I feel bad in the sense that there is obviously something going on in her personal life. But when you are at the point where you are sending unsolicited (in terms of no previous PM communication or offer to communicate in PM) abusive PMs to multiple people, you are well beyond what I think the vast majority of DUers would see as acceptable conduct.

[BainsBane]

307. Yes, it's a tragic situation

but having been on the receiving end of her abuse for over two years now, I've lost sympathy. At a certain point you have to deal with your issues rather than taking them out on others.

[seabeyond]

317. well, that is a four yr, something going on in her life.

as i have experienced this behavior, consistently, for four years.

[pintobean]

306. If the pm to Sid had been a post

it would have just been another hidden post - a community standards violation. Creating a sock to get around restrictions placed on an account would be a TOS violation and a PPR for most people, but not you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=302058&sub=trans

[hrmjustin]

311. May i remind you that at the time of her sock the 5 jury hide ban rule was not in place.

And she was not the only one that the admins let lide by.

BUT

Since the rule on 5 hides has taken effect the admins have made clear creating a sock to get around a 5 hide vacation is a going to get you a ppr.

They have enforced this rule vigorously. If polly created a sock to get around this ban then for fairness she has to be banned.

Plenty of people who were on a 5 hide break did not break this rule.

[pintobean]

312. No shit. Also, before the 5 hide rule

people could rack up a shitload of hidden posts. BB was once tied for second place with 16. It's just funny to see the outrage over community standard violations.

What's your point? If Polly created a sock, she'll get canned. The TOS wording hasn't changed, though. It's the same now as when 'a dogs life' was canned.

[hrmjustin]

314. There are a lot of things that admins haven't change on their rules page.

But being on mirt from time to time I can tell you that since the 5 hide rule too effect the enforce the rule on not creating a sock to get around a 5 hide vacation most vigorously.

As for BB sock she admitted she was wrong and paid for her offense by people like yourself who feel the need to bring it up.

Also I would remind you that both you and she were on a 5 hide vacation and you both obeyed the rules on no sovks.

If polly created a sock she shoukd be banned for breaking that rule. Also sending nadty pms like she did shoukd also get her banned. If she can't control herself then she shouldn't be here.

[seabeyond]

320. i was on mirt at the time. skinner was saying he did not care about socks and zombies if they behave

as you well know.

ignoring facts of the time, for your condemnation doesnt work.

skinner did nothing to baines, because baines did nothing skinner verbally opposed. us on mirt were trying to get clarification.

shit happened.

baines apologized.

your problem?

[pintobean]

357. The sock wasn't polly.

She told me it wasn't her. That seemed to be the consensus before her haters started speculating. That was MIRT's assessment, too.

[hrmjustin]

359. Thats good. But considering the pms she sent people she should be banned.

[pintobean]

361. You sure are quick to want a 10 year member banned.

You should give that some more thought, and think about the history of some of your friends.

I'm sure you saw that a recipient of one of those PMs doesn't want her banned.

Polly was here almost 7 years when you joined. Who are you to say she should be banned?

[hrmjustin]

363. I was a member since 2001. hrhjustin

I stopped posting in 2005 and lost my password. I rejoined in 2012 under this account. Later that year I found my password but decided to stick with this account. Skinner knows all of this.


I will agree she was baited and the hide was close but her pms were outragous. I am not going to cry if she isn't banned but her behavior is over the top.

[pintobean]

365. You're still not qualified to decide.

I think that it's arrogant for anyone to call for the banning of long time members.

[hrmjustin]

367. I am giving my opinion. Just like you give opinions on other posters all the time.

[pintobean]

369. To ban them?

[hrmjustin]

371. Me? It is rare for a long time poster to be banned but I have spoken about it in the forums.

You? I do not remember whether you have called for ppr of members but you clearly discuss meta often.

[R B Garr]

364. Yet there's a 10-year member you attack on a regular basis

who contributes far more pro-America and Democratic content than polly does.

How duplicitous of you.

[pintobean]

390. You didn't get your wish.

Active but temporarily unable to post (Reason: Transparency page is displayed)

The flag has been cleared.

[hrmjustin]

391. Fine.

Tell her the ignore function works and she should use it.

[pintobean]

392. The ignore function works and you should use it.

[hrmjustin]

393. Yes it does as does the trash feature.

I am using it today for the anti-Hillary threads.

[pintobean]

394. Well, good for you.

At least you didn't try to give me another order.

[hrmjustin]

395. Oh please! your the one who decided to kick this thread up.

You were looking to start in.

[pintobean]

396. I simply informed you of a status

and you told me to go tell her what you wanted her to do.

So... please what?

[hrmjustin]

397. You told me I gave you an order. I gave you a suggestion.

[pintobean]

398. Hmmm

Tell her the ignore function works and she should use it.

doesn't look like a suggestion to me.

[hrmjustin]

399. Do you like this meta back and forth?

[pintobean]

400. I'm amused

that you feel the need to have the last word. The thread would have dropped again if you hadn't felt that need.
Or, maybe you wanted BB's thread to make it to 400 replies. If that's the case, congratulations.

[hrmjustin]

401. I am amused you feel the need to start in.

Your love of meta is well known.

[pintobean]

411. I didn't start in

I tried cleaning up a loose end from this huge meta turd. The OP started in. It's meta all the way.

[hrmjustin]

412. Whatever.

[pintobean]

413. Thanks.

[R B Garr]

360. So you're posting on her behalf now? Yet if anyone from HOF would do that,

you would be following them around with your META talking points. How duplicitous of you.

[pintobean]

362. No.

She didn't ask me to post anything. I just thought I'd end the speculation.

I'm sorry if it disappoints you.

[R B Garr]

366. My post was about your hypocrisy. It's still valid.

[pintobean]

368. Pffft

Hey, have you seen that zombie following me around?

[R B Garr]

370. More META, more hypocrisy, and my point is still valid.

All you post is META. LMFAO about "long-time members." This is all you contribute.

[pintobean]

372. There appears to be no mirrors

in that glass house.

[R B Garr]

373. You keep trying to deflect from your META obsession,

and the more you impugn yourself. Your tactics are well known, documented over several websites and in caves, even.

[seabeyond]

318. wow, drag up what? three years ago? whenever. never fail, do you.

skinner addressed it. throw it in his face, every chance you get.

[BainsBane]

319. Are you still going on about that?

Get a life. Jesus Christ. This is a thread about an important issue having to do with war in the Ukraine, and you are disrupting it.

[pintobean]

322. omg

I'm disrupting.

Read your thread, including your own posts.

jeez

[hrmjustin]

323. She has a point.

You harp on her about that sock just to get under her skin. She paid for her it by here you, polly, and others harp on it.

If this message removed poster was polly will you harp on her?

[pintobean]

324. I'm still laughing

You're always trying to appear to be fair and just. You always take sides, though - regardless of the facts.

Yes, anyone who creates a sock to get around the restrictions placed on their account should be banned. That includes polly7, you, me, or anyone. Will I harp on her? She won't be here to harp on.

[hrmjustin]

326. I stand behind my friends.

I also tell them when they are wrong privately. if she returns here it would be a good idea for her friends to tell her to knock it off, use ignore, and stick to politics. Privately is fine of course.

My complaint to you is that you harp on bb for that sock. I think after 2 years she has suffered enough.

[pintobean]

337. I only do it when it's justified.

Maybe your friends should be taking your advice before you tell me to give it to mine.

[hrmjustin]

338. My friend was not the one who sent nasty pms and got herself on a time out the other day.

My friends were not wrong.

And may I remind you polly also complained about BB's sock like you do. If she did the same thing then that is pure hypocrisy.

[pintobean]

342. "My friends were not wrong."

[hrmjustin]

344. Well the fact is your friend got herself in trouble here.

My friend posted an op.

[R B Garr]

346. LOL, you keep telling yourself that. All you post is META garbage.

"I only do it when it's justified." OMG.

*I meant META, edited.

[pintobean]

354. MIRT garbage?

That's a new one. Who on MIRT is garbage, in your opinion?

[R B Garr]

355. I meant META, and I edited.

[seabeyond]

328. yet, again, you ignore the FACT skinner addressed this with the board and baines specifically. right

that would be " fair and just."?

[seabeyond]

315. yup. wasnt another board involved too, with the two participants? vague and a while ago. nt

[pintobean]

332. Like DUkies?

[seabeyond]

336. ya. you just really fail to include differences. and again, what? 3 yrs ago? ignore facts

[SidDithers]

125. Heheh...

Polly will be back at the end of April.

Sid

[Tommy_Carcetti]

126. Maybe she can spend that time off reading the dictionary. nt

[SidDithers]

127. Starting somewhere in the middle of the Cs...nt

Sid

[Tommy_Carcetti]

142. And let's just preface that for the uninitiated with the fact she refuses to define the word "coup".

That's the gist of the joke here.

Don't want to unintentionally get you in trouble there, Sid.

Although you are Skinner, so I doubt you'll be banned.

[HERVEPA]

141. Well, she is spending part of the time sending me nasty PM's, so I think she's keeping busy.

[SidDithers]

147. Post 'em...

Last edited Thu Feb 26, 2015, 05:58 PM - Edit history (1)

They're not private messages.

If they're nasty, they should be exposed. DU3 is all about transparency. The admins have said time and again that DUMail is not private messaging. And if they're really offensive, they should be alerted to Admins.

Here's the one I got:

polly7
Well here you go then, you fucking asshole.

Yeah, I'm 'angry'. I watched a six y/o die last night, then got home, got some coffee and saw my stalker got away with a lying call-out. Then there's you - never one to miss a good pig-pile. You make me sick. And ashamed to be Canadian you brown-nosing fuck.

Post that.

Sid

[HERVEPA]

155. Nah. I told her I wouldn't tell admins. I'm too nice a guy. :-)

[SidDithers]

158. Well, you're a nicer guy than I am...

Sid

[HERVEPA]

162. Yeh, but you're a legend.

[LittleBlue]

176. In your own minds

Hiding behind juries is cowardly. The adult equivalent of hiding behind your mother when it all gets a bit too much for you.

[Marr]

303. +1, this whole gleeful exchange is gross.

The usual for that crew.

[BainsBane]

263. The problem is it is part of a pattern

She has sent abusive PMs in the past and gotten away with it. She has only been emboldened as a result.

[uhnope]

459. I had a pretty civil discussion that led to an admission of a certain admiration for Gaddafi

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026147800#post68

I try to keep it civil (ok many will laugh at that, but...) except for the ones I've given up on because they really are malicious supporters of totalitarian regimes, and they really are probably somehow either shilling or hiding a really ugly ideology. Those purveyors of new thinking that are not what another liberal would say.

[CreekDog]

184. I find it odd that some internet disrespect seems to be as upsetting as the death of a 6 year old

did I read that correctly?

[SidDithers]

191. Yeah. That's a bit off, isn't it...nt

Sid

[Number23]

259. That is the worst PM I've ever seen. And that's including the stuff people posted from death threat

dude. I sincerely hope that you sent that to the admins.

I watched a six y/o die last night, then got home, got some coffee and saw my stalker got away with a lying call-out.

Huh? What is really going on in that post? Was the six year old dying on television, right in front of her on the street? What? And how does that in any way correlate to coming on DU and screaming at people?? And was the "lying call out" in any way comparable to seeing a child die??!

And is she mad at you for being ashamed to be Canadian or mad because you're a "brown nosing fuck?"

[Marr]

309. You've posted far worse insults than that in the open forum, Number 23.

Get off the fainting couch.

[stevenleser]

325. Prove it. Let's see a link. I don't believe you. That post in open forum is a guaranteed hide. nt

[Marr]

330. Well, to be fair, Number23's abuse tends to take the form of

calling other posters stupid, deranged, mentally ill, toxic, etc. and claiming that they are stalking her.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4565286

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5646330

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5646346

Those were only easy for me to find because they were directed my way, but I've seen her do it to others as well.

So while I must admit than I cannot find any examples of actual crude language, I do believe her general behavior makes it seem a bit ridiculous when she gets the vapors over insults like 'brown-noser'.

[BainsBane]

334. Enough with the bullshit

No one cares about your petty disputes. This thread is about Russia and the Ukraine. If you can't discuss that, take it elsewhere. The two of you need to put each other on ignore and stick to issues.

[Marr]

339. I realize you want to swarm for your friend-- but try reading first.

I was asked to provide examples, and did so.

You may return to your discussion of Russia (which, oddly, seems to be primarily concerned with posters on DU). I certainly didn't ask for your input.

[pintobean]

340. Like you?

[Number23]

381. That person sees repeated requests for him to leave me the hell alone as ME harassing HIM

That tells you all you need to know about this individual. Sorry to interrupt your thread but look at those posts -- it's me telling him to stop stalking and harassing me from MONTHS ago and here we still are. But somehow, that's ME insulting HIM.

And what's funny is that he thinks posting that stuff make me look bad. If anything, those posts as well as his coming into this thread with this bullshit don't do anything but prove PRECISELY why I have demanded now almost two dozen times that he leave me alone and stay the hell away from me. The only question is truly how long before the admins do something about it.

[msanthrope]

329. Kindly cite what you mean? nt

[Number23]

380. You need help. And I mean that quite seriously.

[BainsBane]

261. That's awful

and completely unacceptable. Of course she's done it before to others, but she used to focus her efforts primarily on HOF. She's since diversified.

[stevenleser]

402. Looks like admins have decided that she will be back.

Fascinating. I wouldn't have called that one.

[BainsBane]

403. The IP check must have come up clean

and they don't seem to care about abusive PMs. I suggest you put her on ignore or block email. Who wants to deal with that shit.

[stevenleser]

404. Yep, I was 50-50 on whether she was the poster of some of that stuff here, but I thought the abusive

unsolicited PMs would have sealed the deal.

You never know. I would not have expected to be able to get away with that if it were me.

[pintobean]

406. I posted that she said it wasn't her.

Why would she lie? If it had been her, it would have been suicide by sock.

Polly has just as much right to be here as anyone who was calling for her PPR, more so than the zombie(s).

[stevenleser]

407. No one has the right to send unsolicited abusive PMs. That's over the top. nt

[pintobean]

408. You haven't been paying attention.

They're not PMs, they're DU Mail, and calling someone "fucking asshole" or "brown-nosing fuck" are not bannable offenses. We all have the power to ignore mail from someone, or put them on full ignore. Admin doesn't need to hold our hands, and they've made it quite clear that they don't want to.

[stevenleser]

409. Oh I'm paying attention. And your opinion is interesting. nt

[pintobean]

410. Oh, my.

[R B Garr]

414. Yes, that mole is interesting with the concern over rules

Last edited Wed Mar 4, 2015, 12:06 AM - Edit history (1)

It's hard not to pay attention when that's all he talks about.

[pintobean]

418. Here's something interesting

On Thu Feb 26, 2015, 05:36 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Maybe Polly didn't like the lies you guys are spreading?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6285137

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Putin troll just joined and is trash talking DU. He's been here multiple times.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Feb 26, 2015, 05:43 PM, and voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you.

Then this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=321132&sub=trans

[stevenleser]

270. One of her PM's to me was pretty much like that, I think she cut and pasted.

The least you can do if you are going to send abusive PMs is to spend the time to make them original and unique.

[hrmjustin]

327. Is this recent? If this is stuff she is sending to peopke regularly she should be gone.

[SidDithers]

331. That was sent to me yesterday...

but the comments above indicate it's not the first time.

Sid

[hrmjustin]

335. Disgraceful! She should be banned for that.

And if she signed up as all those message removed then she should be banned for that. Any idea if it was her?

[SidDithers]

341. No, i wasn't involved in the MIRT discussions on that one...

And I wouldn't want to see polly banned. She's too entertaining.

Off topic, I squared up the Hillary picture in your avatar. The one you've got is stretched. Try this one.



Sid

[hrmjustin]

343. My profile says I still have my old avatar.

I just tried the one you gave me. Did it work?

[SidDithers]

345. i'm still seeing the stretched one...

I might just have to refresh on my end.

Sid

[SidDithers]

347. I see the new one in your profile...

and in this reply-to

But the stretched one shows in the actual post.

Weird.

Sid

[hrmjustin]

348. That is weird. I am still seeing my old avatar.

[stevenleser]

378. Yep, me yesterday as well. nt

[hrmjustin]

379. Well that should not be tolerated.

Her hide can be debated but that behavior should not be allowed.

[R B Garr]

350. Wow, her mask is really slipping. Maybe she could contain her xenophobia

before when Bush was in office, but now her pure hatred for America is coming through. Look how she calls you a brown-noser, presumably for agreeing with Americans. Look at her use of the word "ashamed", which is really what she likes to do to Americans -- shame them.

Yikes, sorry you had to get this. You don't deserve it!

[stevenleser]

163. Past a year or two ago I don't remember her being this angry. Wonder if something is going on in her

personal life. If so, I feel bad for her and hope she gets it fixed.

[HERVEPA]

164. Yeh. That's why I didn't report PM's to Admin.

[stevenleser]

179. I just got two nasty PMs in response to my above post which was genuine.

Then all of a sudden they were deleted by the system and it was noted that she no longer has the rights to send or receive mail. Looks like the admins put a brake to her ability to send nasty PMs. I can only guess that portends more negative admin action heading her way.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

189. Already flagged for review. nt

[William769]

250. I wished that had been the case a couple a months ago!

[RiffRandell]

417. When was that?

When you dragged personal shit from MIRT into HoF that wasn't a big deal, but you tried to make it one, wanted her burned at the stake with only about a 1/4 of the truth and then deleted it after you accomplished what you wanted to by riling people up over nothing?

You should be really proud of yourself!

[HERVEPA]

140. I know.

[CreekDog]

183. I was about to say that all of them had strangely stayed clear of this thread

until one of them wanted a cracker.

[CreekDog]

182. speaking of birds, I sure love me some KFC

That Colonel Sanders was a genius.

Wish I could remember his first name.

[pintobean]

190. For some reason

his middle name reminds me of chicken shit.

[Tarheel_Dem]

276. That parrot's on a break, apparently that cracker got stuck in it's throat.

[nilesobek]

54. Is there a clever way you can toss my screen name into the mix?

[BainsBane]

58. Hmmm.

Maybe you have to kick it up a notch? You're flying beneath the radar.

[nilesobek]

74. I believe you are right

About my motivation. I was homeless with no money or insurance for a decade. Yeah I'm passed off but not at the level you might think. Ukraine isn't worth risking or even go to war over. I'm against a single penny going for more duped overseas war adventures. I actually cheered when the neo cons got beat.

[BainsBane]

75. The US is not going to war in the Ukraine

the whole idea is ridiculous. It isn't necessary to justify Russia's war on the Ukraine to oppose US intervention. This isn't a Hollywood movie with good guys vs. bad guys. Russia's war on the Ukraine is wrong, and trying to justify it is no different than making excuses for the US in Iraq. Why people think they have to do that to oppose US intervention is beyond me. The only two options are not parroting every excuse out of the Kremlin or promoting US intervention. That kind of simplistic polemic doesn't speak to the reality of foreign relations, and I cannot begin to understand how some people think that way. It's gotten to the point where if you make any criticism of Putin you're accused of wanting the US to go to war with Russia. That is very far from a rational response to the situation.

The lesson to be learned from Iraq is not to swallow whole excuses for another war by a different country. it is to learn to fucking THINK and cut through bullshit from governments in justifying their foreign intervention. The only difference between the pro-Russian apologists and the neocons is they are justifying a different war by a different nation. They are every bit as uncritical as the Americans who supported the Iraq war. Pro-war is pro-war. Dead isn't any less dead at the hands of Russians than Americans. Insisting that the war on the Ukraine is justified because of neo-nazis or any other political faction is to say people deserve to die because you don't like their political views. That position is warmongering, pure and simple.

[nilesobek]

79. Thank you for speaking to me in a thoughtful non abusive way.

You know you make a lotta sense but the problem is the US plans on sending in weapons to Ukraine. We got people homeless on the streets. We got the middle class losing it and becoming a poverty class. We cannot afford this crap.

Mainly I object to the OP and its ridiculous assertion that I am part of a Russian troll army. Jesus I just scraped myself off the street a couple years ago. I wish I had an opportunity to make money as easy as that would be. No, I am a manual laborer toiling 12-16 hrs a day to save my rectangle.

[geek tragedy]

132. Nobody is accusing you of being part of the troll army

We're talking about people who argue that all leftists are obliged to support Putin, and who regularly spew nothing but the latest Kremlin talking points.

It's not "a pox on both their houses" or "none of our business" or "we have more important things to worry about" folks.

[BainsBane]

254. The army of trolls is Russian, according to the article

not Americans. I don't find it so implausible. Herding cats posted an article in this thread saying the Ukraine is planning the same damn thing in response.

I oppose arming the Ukrainians. We can send some food and medical supplies, but no guns, no advisors. It is Russia's sphere of influence. I don't like it. I feel bad for the people who live there, but we are not going to be able to fix it. I don't believe Obama will go along with the scheme, and we need to make sure the next president doesn't either.

[pintobean]

214. Static signal

[William769]

63. ROFLMGAO!

[polly7]

68. Puke ....

[William769]

81. Polly wanna a cracker?

[elias49]

84. Seriously?

Grow up.

[snooper2]

98. that was a little funny :)

ease up

[pintobean]

100. No, it wasn't. It was cheap.

And, she can't respond due to a hidden post, so it's even cheaper.

No surprises though.

[snooper2]

101. the hidden post rant was kind of funny too

people get bent out of shape too easily...


chill... have a !

[Quantess]

129. That one gets bent out of shape really easily!

I found that out today after leaving a comment on her video link that was generally positive but not 100% positive.

She needs to smell roses, play with puppies, smile at babies, or something to not be so tightly wound.
In fact, it's good advice for anyone here. Take your dog out for a walk or give the cat some attention. Call a friend and laugh at something silly.

Just, step away from the keyboard before you get stressed out. Chill out! (Edit to say, not you, I mean DUers n general.)

[Tommy_Carcetti]

137. Or read the dictionary. nt

[BainsBane]

292. Actually

the has been cited as an excuse for similar episodes in the past.

[CreekDog]

181. I heard the same thing

the other night at the Tiki Bar.

[leveymg]

32. And then there are the anti-missile missiles. Just like it ever was.

Cold War follies never ended. They just went on-line.

[Cha]

33. I don't care how many Trolls they train.. they Suck at it. Check out the dif between putin at PBO..

"The bizarre hive of social media activity appears to be part of a two-pronged Kremlin campaign to claim control over the internet, launching a million-dollar army of trolls to mold American public opinion as it cracks down on internet freedom at home."

**************************************************************************************

Net Neutrality: President Obama's Plan for a Free and Open Internet

"More than any other invention of our time, the Internet has unlocked possibilities we could just barely imagine a generation ago. And here's a big reason we've seen such incredible growth and innovation: Most Internet providers have treated Internet traffic equally. That's a principle known as "net neutrality" — and it says that an entrepreneur's fledgling company should have the same chance to succeed as established corporations, and that access to a high school student's blog shouldn't be unfairly slowed down to make way for advertisers"

http://www.whitehouse.gov/net-neutrality

As Republicans Concede, F.C.C. Is Expected to Enforce Net Neutrality/AKA/"Obamacare for the Internet"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026275163

Mahalo for the link, Bains

[Jamaal510]

37. Putin's keyboard warriors

are ripping off their shirts and fighting as ferociously as bears.

[betsuni]

40. I like how they're described as "dead souls."

It's vexing to read a comment section and suddenly feel like you're surrounded by snarky annoying teenaged boys.

[freshwest]

211. They immediately go for the jugular of those who don't dance to their tune. Very personal.

[pintobean]

241. It's a good thing DU isn't like that.

[Comrade Grumpy]

356. I hope you're not trying to derail this thread. Which is about...

Well, I thought it was about Ukraine and Putin, but it seems to be about gleeful troll catching.

[pintobean]

358. Gude one!

[Man from Pickens]

44. what a relief!

It's good to know that rational, ethical, fact-based objections to the Ukraine policy of various powers is completely impossible and that anyone who thinks the Russian side might have a point is a paid agent.

For a second there, I was afraid I'd have to collect and evaluate information by myself, so it's good to know there's an approved opinion I can just fall in line with.

[BainsBane]

46. fact based?

I don't think they are all paid. I think some are just incapable of discerning bullshit. I think I have more respect for the paid ones because they at least know what they are doing.

[MattSh]

130. And you're a great fount of knowledge, how?

Because you fall for everything the mainstream media says? Oh sorry, Buzzfeed.

Christ, the USA has fallen a lot further than I thought possible when Buzzfeed is considered a serious news source.

[BainsBane]

131. I know it's not Lyndon Larouche's site

But we can't all rise to the journalistic heights endorsed by some of Putin's lickspittle.

I've also see pro-Putin folk cite Buzzfeed countless times, and yet this is the first time you've had a problem with it.
And predictably, nothing to say about the substance of the piece.

[freshwest]

245. Yes, the Larouche, Tarpley, Jones, etc. crowd. Notice how they hate Democrats ?

[Tarheel_Dem]

277. Hell, they don't even have to pay this idiot & his merry band of oafs, which explains alot.

"Ron Paul Is Supporting Russia’s Illegal Occupation of Crimea"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024677214

The resident Paulites all love Pooty Poot! Actually, I think the Pauls and their sycophants are much more dangerous than Putin.

[BainsBane]

283. There are some interesting bedfellows

for sure.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

133. Ahem. Paul Craig Roberts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024526436

The piece in the OP was written by Max Seddon, who's written for the AP and the Moscow Times.

Paul Craig Roberts, on the other hand, is a 9-11 truther as well as a subscriber to numerous other "creative speculation" (as DU so nicely puts it) theories.

[freshwest]

210. The unrepentant Father of Reagnomics is highly revered at Infowars, etc. I'm soooo impressed.

Well, not really. But then I'm not a fan of:

The GOP, Oathkeepers, the Bundies, Faux-Lifers, Faux Newz, Tenthers, NeoConfederates, RTW promoters, Koch shills, Brillo, Inshannity, Second Amendment Solutionists, Rush, Libertarians or the Pauls, either. And others not listed.

Guess that puts me on the outside.

[geek tragedy]

134. As opposed to those who link to Holocaust denial, Jew-hating sites like the Vineyardsaker.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=mattsh+vineyardsaker+site:democraticunderground.com&safe=active

[zappaman]

143. !!!

[R B Garr]

193. Yikes, and it looks like polly's trolling about the Dresden bombings now

based on a thread she started in the Video section. The seething anti-America hatred is just irrational at this point -- wasn't Canada involved in WWII before the U.S. as part of the British Commonwealth. That would make her a WARMONGER and a baby killer if you apply her own standards to what she posts here about Americans. Trying to shame Americans about bombing Nazi Germany is really over the top.

[BainsBane]

285. Incredible, isn't it?

[R B Garr]

419. Yes, unbelievable. Now the Name Removed posts are being reposted.

So although removed by MIRT, they are getting around that by reposting the deleted posts. Yes, it's who you probably think it is.

[pintobean]

420. LOL

[BainsBane]

421. Who is doing that?

If they have under 100 posts, write someone on MIRT and tell them.

[hrmjustin]

423. Mirt can see the removed messages as can the admins.

[pintobean]

424. no one

[R B Garr]

429. It's post 418. That poster must have missed your OP's. I didn't

see you post many for awhile. Now he can't get enough of you. This is a really, really big deal to post on your thread.

[BainsBane]

430. Oh, him.

Subject matter doesn't interest him. As you said, it's all about Meta. No point even reading his posts.

[R B Garr]

431. True that. Simpletons are simple.

You do bring him much joy, though. I'm glad you won't let these Metahounds keep you from posting. Your threads are very informative.

[BainsBane]

432. Thanks, I appreciate it

When I was on forced leave from DU, I realized how much I liked not engaging in petty arguments about nothing. When I decided to come back, I resolved to do my best to avoid that shit. I've gotten sucked in a time or two, but in general when people make it personal rather than about the subject matter, I put them on ignore and moved on. They are a complete waste of energy and contribute nothing of interest. If they want to wallow in the mud, they'll have to do it without me.

[R B Garr]

433. Great attitude! I think the term for them is Emotional Vampires,

which is pretty much self-explanatory.

[pintobean]

436. You didn't get the point of that post

so you accused me of re-posting a troll's posts and called me the simpleton.

[R B Garr]

439. Your analogies are always fail. It's obvious why you reposted

what MIRT banned.

[pintobean]

435. Yeah, right.

Last edited Wed Mar 4, 2015, 08:13 AM - Edit history (2)

This thread was all meta from the beginning. That's why you brought it here from DI. You've been right in middle of the meta all along. You and your friend's little sub thread here is meta wrapped in meta. Yet, you want to pretend meta is dirty and you're clean.

The Polly haters are sad because they couldn't get her PPRed. I came into this thread to defend a 10 year DUer who was being falsely accused. That makes me a bad guy to the swarm.

Eta - Here's the post from your DI meta thread where you said you'd bring it here - and you did.

[R B Garr]

438. And you see posts about feminists as Meta. You're not fooling anyone.

And polly wasn't being falsely accused. She got a post hidden and sent abusive PM's and got away with it. So you're here just to gloat about that. You don't fool anyone.

[pintobean]

440. Is this thread about feminists?

[R B Garr]

441. You think that topics Democrats discuss are Meta.

Feminism is one of those topics. Remember?

[hrmjustin]

442. The Meta king!

[R B Garr]

444. Yes! He lives for this. Obsessed with it.

[hrmjustin]

446. Sad to say but he never got over when they got rid of the Meta forum.

It shows.

[R B Garr]

448. It absolutely shows. His intentions are very obvious. n/t

[hrmjustin]

449. Agreed!

[R B Garr]

450. Yes, and I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank you.

You have great insights and are always so level-headed considering all the things thrown your way.

[hrmjustin]

453. Thanks. I try but the place does get to you at times.

But we all have our moments.

[pintobean]

445. The finger wagger

Who? What? Me?

[hrmjustin]

447. You are the one who never got over the loss of meta.

just sad for you.

[pintobean]

452. Actually, I thought it was hilarious.

All the purity police cliques wondering wtf happened.
If you'll remember, I spent a lot of time in meta defending long time DUers from the PP mobs. It's what Im doing in this thread, and it's why you and your friends hate me. You wanted Polly7 sacrificed to the PP mob.

[hrmjustin]

454. Thats bull. You thought you were the gaurdian of meta and when it was gone you never got over it.

You thrive on meta.

Polly sent pms to people that she shouldn't have. the admins chose to give her another chance and I am fine with that.

And when the hell have I bern a member of the purity police. You do not know what you are talking about.

[pintobean]

455. Ha. This thread is what meta was.

And you and your friends want to revise history and pretend you were, and are, above it all. What a total crock of shit.

You're PP in this thread.

[hrmjustin]

456. Thats all you got?

The post was about paid Russian sympathizers. It took a life of its own.

As for you your love a meta is well known and can't honestly be denied.i don't pretend to be above ut all. I try to be fair but I do take sides when I think someone is wrong.

I have and admit my faults here but you can't seem to do that. You can dish it out but can't take it when challenged.

I liked meta too but didn't make it my life here so my advice to you is get over the fact that keta is gone.

[R B Garr]

457. You are exactly right again, Justin. He has an obvious agenda.

[hrmjustin]

458. And it is time to challenge him on it.

[pintobean]

443. Did you get permission

from BB to tell me what I think?

[freshwest]

219. Golly, I remember the dust up when a poster kept on posting that stuff. The Magistrate kept on it.

[Hekate]

272. Anybody know where The Magistrate is these days? I miss the old Confucian. nt

[freshwest]

273. Last posts I read from him, he said he was spending more time with his grandchildren.

[Hekate]

274. Considering the condition of DU these days, I'd say that shows a great deal of wisdom.

I'll stop worrying about him then.

[freshwest]

275. He said he was enjoying himself. I agree about the DU.

[Tarheel_Dem]

278. Oh My!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

293. Come on, you know he wouldn't do tha--oh yeah, he did.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1116&pid=51247

A lovely snippet:

Since he got elected, Putin mentioned many times the need for a re-sovereignization of Russia. The Ukrainian crisis has forced him reveal the real end goal of his agenda: to re-sovereignize the entire planet.

This is a tall order and it will take many years, possibly decades, to achieve this goal, though my personal feeling is that the total incompetence and infinite arrogance of of the 1%ers plutocrats which rules over the western world will continue to accelerate that process.

The big question now is this: can the AngloZionist Empire follow the example of the Soviet Empire and collapse without triggering a massive bloodbath on its way down?

There will be violence, for sure, as has been with the former Soviet Union. But if we can avoid a global conflagration or even a large scale massive war then that would have to be considered as success because it is when they collapse that empires become the most dangerous and unpredictable.

[uberblonde]

47. They learned from the best.

Israel's hasbara!

[Behind the Aegis]

59. There it is!

Even when it isn't about Israel, it is!

[freshwest]

247. Isn't that wonderful? Many of their sites are into Jews ruling the world, etc.

Don't you feel just so special, being part of the most omnipotent group of people along with Obama? Perhaps he will be outted as Jewish, too. And HRC's daughter married a Jew, too! OMG, they're everywhere!

icon not needed, I hope...

[Behind the Aegis]

266. Makes me feel all tingly inside.

What is so disgusting is it isn't just a calamity of the right, which probably explains many recent events.

[freshwest]

269. Yes, a new thread that is from a 5 year old stories is bringing 'em in tonight.

I've learned a lot about who are not our allies no matter what they claim. It goes way back to a root philosophy that is deeply anti-equality. I'll stick with Democrats. I'd PM, but it'd be depressing.

[FairWinds]

49. Just because people are . .

deeply skeptical of US intervention in that crisis, which included orchestrating the
violent overthrow of the elected government in the Ukraine, does not mean
we are pro-Putin.
How about if we have a reasoned discussion of the issue?

[HERVEPA]

51. How about you don't lie about what happened.

[BainsBane]

53. In order to have a reasoned discussion people need to cut the crap

and engage in a rational assessment of the situation. I oppose any US intervention besides humanitarian aid and sanctions. I also oppose empire building and war, whether by Russia or the US. What I have been confronted with here is people who insist on aping every excuse that comes from the Kremlin and justifying the takeover of the Ukraine and killing of Ukrainians because they, like Putin, think them inferior and unfit to govern themselves. There will be no US war. It is Russia's sphere of influence. The only consequences Putin faces are sanctions and a blow to his standing in this world. This campaign to legitimate war on the Ukraine enables him to free himself from the latter and makes it easier for him to continue his empire building. He has already entered Georgia and the Ukraine. How many countries do you want Russia to take over?

If people want to support the rebuilding of the Russian empire, they should be honest and say so, but this endless bullshit that the existence of fascists in the Ukraine justifies Putin's war is unacceptable. If you and others truly believe that some people deserve to die based on their political views and that Russia has the right to take it over because it doesn't like the Ukraine's political direction, you need to say so. The bullshit excuses are unbelievable, pure propaganda, and I don't even know what to say about people who either 1) willingly cheerlead on the death of Ukrainians, promoting war while pretending to be antiwar; or 2) lack the intellectual capacity to discern bullshit propaganda when they see it.

They also insist that Putin not be criticized. They insist anything that presents him as anything other than perfect is propaganda. When presented with evidence, they shout "MSM, MSM" over and over again like parrots. They deny everything that doesn't fit their delusion of Putin as the messiah and the US as sheer evil. Now, I can understand a Russian taking such a position, even though I disagree with it. It is their nation after all. But when Americans do it, there is something seriously wrong. These people refused to consider anything in the Frontline piece and gave one empty excuse after another for why it wasn't true, none of which addressed the actual points in the film. Someone even linked to an article discussing Harvard economists and US bankers visit to Moscow in 1996 as
a defense for Putin's actions in St. Petersburg 5 years earlier. They did not even bother to figure out what time period or place documentary covered. So this excuses that people are not admirers of Putin is proved false by their insistence that anything critical of him is false propaganda.

The constant warmongering on Russia's behalf is inexcusable, and that too many of you are unable to imagine anything other than all out invasion by the US or believing every single word that comes from the Kremlin is inexplicable to me and far from reasoned.
Now, I don't recall any conversations with you on this issue, but I have had conversations of the nature I describe above. The most bizarre thing is that they consider themselves leftists, all while warmongering for a right-wing homophobic, autocrat. The position is pro-empire and pro-war. It just so happens not to be an American war, as though death is less serious when at Russian hands as opposed to American. People need to be honest about what they are advocating. Do you realize the Russian left opposes the intervention? They are anti-imperialist and see through Putin's excuses. Yet people here to not.

None of that bullshit is necessary to oppose any US or EU intervention in the region. I frankly think chances of that happening are close to nonexistent. There was no US coup, and you need to knock that BS off. There were popular protests. The IMF is not the equivalent of tanks and guns. A Russian document given to the editor of Novaya Gazeta shows that Putin planned the takeover months before Yanukovych fled Kiev. They planned to annex Crimea and the Eastern Ukraine months before the government in Kiev fell, and they planned to get rid of Yanukovych themselves. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/02/21/257386/russian-news-report-ukraine-invasion.html#storylink=cpy
Repeating the Kremlin's excuses for its foreign intervention is no different than if you repeated the Bush administration's excuses for Iraq. Why would anyone think that was a rational thing to do? How can grown adults not understand that governments engage in PR campaigns to justify their foreign policy?

[elias49]

85. Thus spoke BainsBane! All fall in line!

Only BainsBane knows the Truth!

[Sissyk]

105. True Colors!

That was a very detailed and fact-based message; yet all you can do is snark. Why is that?

[elias49]

111. What colors you talking about Sissy?

My post wasn't even 'detailed' but you figured out everything about me? Wow.
I snark because arrogance makes me puke. OK?
Cherry pick 'facts' and you can make a pie. Truth is a little more complex.

[BainsBane]

291. Then enlighten us with this complex truth

by all means.

[BainsBane]

138. Yes, that would be an example of a reasoned discussion

If you can't engage with substance, use personal attacks. The inability to deal with points of substance is another hallmark of the pro-Putin crowd.

I also find it revealing how the pretense of caring about US intervention so quickly falls away. You read that I am unabashedly opposed to any US intervention, but you are sickened because I do not accept the uncritical view of Russian imperial intervention so near and dear to you heart.

And no, I am hardly the only one that knows the basic points I laid out. Many people have the critical thinking skills necessary to see through bullshit.

[NuclearDem]

102. This.

Being principled on the matter of anti-imperialism means not just opposing illegal wars waged by the US, but also by countries that happen to be the current thumb in the eye of the US.

Otherwise, it's anti-Western, not anti-imperialist.

[freshwest]

253. What bitter irony: 'Leftists... warmongering for a right-wing homophobic, autocrat.'

Last edited Fri Feb 27, 2015, 02:32 AM - Edit history (1)

As you have done so well, let's just cut the crap and get to what is being supported here. Wittingly or not.

I know Russians who gave me reasons as to why they support a full return of the days of monarchy and Russian empire. Not just the days of the USSR...

Back to the days of the Tsars. Just plain old feudalism, but with some modern touches. That is why the GOP, Libertarians and Koch types support Putin. This is their view of how they world should be run, but they know that people will not accept it if they call it by what it is. They are conditioning us to accept it, though.

Thom Hartmann gives an excellent description of what we as a nation and the world are confronted with now:

ISIS is another version, they see what they are doing as bringing in a more natural system. They are quite open about how they are going to do it.

The honest Russians I spoke of may be a minority, but we have to think what Russia has been through since the fall of the USSR. Many blame that on the USA. Since Reagan took credit, didn't he?

They also tell me they see Putin as their man and are willing to have him as Tsar. So words arguing against Putin won't work, to him he is the past and future Russia.

But those who are coming to online American forums, and mouth a few buzzwords as if they care about American ideals or the Enlightenment, or much more often bash us, are not being honest and their attempts are clumsy.

JMHO!

[moondust]

52. I keep asking them what's for lunch today...

in the Kremlin cafeteria.

[BainsBane]

55. :)

Today it's crow.

[geek tragedy]

73. Victoria Nuland's cookies. nt

[elias49]

61. Wow! Not fair!! nt

[William769]

62. Kick & highly recommended.

[polly7]

69. lmfao.

[William769]

82. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=173044&sub=trans

[Cooley Hurd]

86. I guess you're not going to get a response...

[William769]

87. Silence is golden.

[AtheistCrusader]

88. Jury Results.

On Thu Feb 26, 2015, 09:40 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6281406

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This 'HOST' has been stalking me for months, used MIRT and the host forum to try to get me banned and has been personally attacking me - sometimes deleting his posts before he thinks I can respond, and now, above "Polly want a cracker". I am done here now because I replied to the call-out of me above, and this 'Host' is celebrating. Rude, OTT and inappropriate. I didn't realize hosts and members of MIRT promoted such hatred and ugliness on DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Feb 26, 2015, 09:48 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Posting a link to a profile isn't a hideable thing. When a poster is not able to post due to five hidden posts, that information is often posted, to let people know that that poster will not be able to reply. I vote to leave.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I am not a big fan of the poster this one is responding to but this type of post is way over the top. You may not like the poster you are exchanging with but either respond to the post with content or leave it alone.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The hell? He's stalking you? You responded TO HIM before the timestamp of that 'cracker' post. This is the most bullshit alert I've ever seen. Fix your backstory before you attack someone in an alert like that.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sorry polly7 - your transparency page is viewable because you clearly do not play well with others. Certainly not voting to hide this...
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Link to profile is inappropriate and a personal attack. It isn't debate or even a comment.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Dunno about the history, but this is not OTT, especially after you mocked him with the lmfao.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[William769]

90. Thanks.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

96. Juror No. 4--"Does not play well with others."

That pretty much sums it up.

[CreekDog]

185. now who's laughing?

?w=400&h=300

[zappaman]

186. Me!

[Tarheel_Dem]

279. And me!

[William769]

242. ...

[sabrina 1]

64. How come I never got any of those emails? And the only propaganda I've seen on Social Media

is from the neocon contingency who actually have 'corporations' 'promoting' pro Coup Government propaganda. Most people have blocked them they are so annoying and so prolific.

How do we get the other side to invade our accounts??

[BainsBane]

66. Reading the article would be a good start

Last edited Thu Feb 26, 2015, 07:48 AM - Edit history (1)

And be sure not to miss this one: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/02/21/257386/russian-news-report-ukraine-invasion.html
I know how much you care about "facts." Or you can continue to work to promote the Russian empire and justify the deaths of Ukrainians. Thank goodness Putin has the pro-war contingency to explain to everyone how inferior Ukrainians aren't fit to govern themselves and deserve to die because they maintain political views you look down on, like independence rather than a continuation of the colonial subjugation they have faced under Russia since the 17th century. First Georgia and then the Ukraine. Who is next? And how many have to die to satisfy Putin and his apologists?

The jig is up. The lies have been exposed. No, you don't need to be paid for it. Not everyone who repeats the propaganda are paid trolls, though some of your information likely comes from them. Some people simply lack the capacity to discern bullshit, which when coupled with a hatred for their own nation that verges on pathological self loathing makes them perfect pawns for Putin's propaganda efforts. You happily donate your energies to the cause of the Great Russian Empire. It's appropriate that you should mention the neocons, when the only difference is the war you promote is waged by another nation, and somehow you think that makes it okay.

[zappaman]

109. Nailed it.

"Some people simply lack the capacity to discern bullshit, which when coupled with a hatred for their own nation that verges on pathological self loathing makes them perfect pawns for Putin's propaganda efforts."

[polly7]

70. Awwww ......... another little cartoon to distract from the neo-con, McCain wet dream.

By Andrew Lichterman

February 24, 2015

Over the past month, the Ukraine conflict has exploded once again. Now the warring parties have agreed to a ceasefire, and to an approach to further negotiations towards a political solution. It is time for the countries that are providing support from outside Ukraine to halt and reverse all actions that contribute to this war, and that also are raising tensions in the region to levels not seen since the Cold War.

For most residents of the United States, the war in Ukraine seems to have emerged out of nowhere, intensifying with a startling pace. There is much debate about its causes, but there can be little about either the devastation it is causing or the greater dangers to which it may lead. Thousands have been killed in the fighting and hundreds of thousands displaced from their homes. The Ukraine’s economy, fragile even before the war began, has been disrupted by war and the country’s division. Much of Ukraine’s population already suffers economic hardship, and their future is bleak unless the war is ended and resources found for rebuilding and recovery.

The Ukraine war began with the overthrow of an elected government—a rebellion in which various factions had received material assistance and public political backing from the United States, and Western European governments as well. In a country that since its inception has been governed by alternating coalitions of oligarchs associated with regional and economic sectors oriented towards Russia on the one hand and Europe on the other, the potential for a broader conflict was present from the outset. This danger was both manifested and intensified by the event that sparked the protests and insurrection, the rejection by the government of an agreement that would have strengthened Ukraine’s economic ties with the European Union, and set the country on a course towards increased integration with European military structures and organizations.

Russia’s government and military see NATO expansion into Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics as a betrayal of commitments made by the U.S. and its allies in the early 1990’s following the disintegration of the Soviet Union. Ukraine was the most populous and economically productive of the former Soviet republics outside Russia, and still provided a key warm water port to the Russian Navy in Crimea under a basing agreement. The possibility that Ukraine might become more tightly tied to NATO and might even someday host NATO forces is seen by Russia’s national security establishment as a critical strategic threat.

........The deep injustices of the global economy will not be addressed until some genuinely different social and economic alternative emerges from the stagnation and decay of the neoliberal order. In the meantime, it is essential that we understand that the wars our ruling elites provoke and seek to enlist us to fight are not our wars. In a crowded, fragile, and globally interconnected society bristling with high-tech armaments and nuclear weapons, war is a disaster for ordinary people, and the potential for a civilizational catastrophe a real risk. If humanity is to survive for long, there can be no more support for the warmakers.

Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/ukraine-time-to-step-back-from-the-brink/

I could come up with some too with McCain and other warmongers, but you wouldn't like them, they'd be a fuck of a lot more graphic, lol. And, what's your obsession with Putin? Nobody objecting to this IMF takeover horror mentions him but you and your cheerleading squad. Have a whole wall papered with him, do ya?

[BainsBane]

71. The war came out of somewhere all right, the Kremlin

planned months before the fall of the government in Kiev. That according to the editor of the Russian Newspaper Novaya Gazeta, one of the few remaining independent and anti-imperialist papers in Russia.

The editor of Novaya Gazeta says he will be publishing a Russian strategy document drawn up months before Yanukovych fled Kiev for Moscow.

The editor,

Muratov said the document characterized then Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych as “a person without morals and willpower whose downfall must be expected at any moment.” Yanukovych fled Ukraine for Russia on Feb. 22, 2014.

Muratov said the Russian document appears to have been drafted between Feb. 4 and Feb. 15 last year. He said the overall strategy included plans on how to break Ukraine into automonmous sectors, immediately attaching now war-torn southeastern Ukraine to Moscow’s tax union, with a longer term plan for annexation.

The plan suggested “the main thrust should be Crimea and the Kharkhiv region, with the aim of initiating the annexation of the eastern regions.”

The strategy document also calls for a public relations campaign to justify Russia’s intervention. The newspaper did not release further details of the strategy at this point.


Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/02/21/257386/russian-news-report-ukraine-invasion.html#storylink=cpy

Ukrainians are dying, and you think IMF loans worse than tanks and guns. Be sure to tell the families of the deceased how lucky they are that Putin has liberated their loved ones from Western economic influence by putting them six feet under. Western banks may be good enough to house the billions of Putin and his cronies, but not for the little people of the Ukraine.

[leveymg]

76. The problem with both these reports is that they rely on Russian "documents" that don't

appear to have any way of being verified and no established provenance. I would be very wary of relying on them to build this case. At the same time, propaganda and perception management are a fact of life, and always has been.

[BainsBane]

77. Well, we shall see if he publishes the document

but I will remind you than the NSA revelations came from leaked documents, as did a great deal of information through the Wikieaks dump, which by the way included intel on Russia.

I do know this: Repeating excuses from the Kremlin is no different from repeating excuses from the Bush administration for Iraq. People who think there is something righteous about doing that are lacking in critical thinking. People who are truly anti-war do not work to justify war by Russia. That is in fact a pro-war position.

None of that, I repeat, none of that, is necessary to oppose US military intervention in the Ukraine. I oppose US intervention. What I do not do is swallow whole propaganda out of the Kremlin and repeat it to justify their empire building. I do not do so because 1) I'm not an idiot, and 2) I will not stump for a war, anyone's war. I see no good solution to the situation in the Ukraine. Sadly, Ukrainians will likely once again be subjugated to their colonial oppressors. The only consequences Russia faces are sanctions and Putin's standing in the world. This PR campaign people here are engaged in works to relieve him of the latter, which only enables him to conquer additional lands. Why must people here be complicit in that?

[elias49]

89. You DO realize that no-one can conquer like the US can conquer, right?

I mean the US and Great Britain perfected 'colonialism' a century ago. If you're OK with that, it's your burden to bear. I repeat your burden to bear.

Have a wonderful afternoon.

[NuclearDem]

99. How is that relevant to a discussion about Russian imperialism?

[elias49]

110. You don't understand? Really?

Ask your Mom.

[NuclearDem]

112. Why would I need to do that?

I know a logical fallacy when I see one.

Though I get that your history of Russian imperialism starts and ends with the Cold War, since that's the only time period you get to somewhat blame the US for it, but Russia has been occupying and oppressing its Eastern European neighbors for centuries.

[leveymg]

92. The difference is that Wikileaks was a document dump. We saw the text of documents and knew the

identified source. Here, the readers have no way to inspect the source or content for ourselves. We simply don't know the source of these documents.

I also try not to swallow Kremlin propaganda, and expect them to lie about their interventions, just as the US Government does. The Ukranians also lie and release misleading materials. If the Russians have gotten smart and taken a page out of the Karl Rove universal dirty tricks manual, they may just feed phony materials to the west, and watch the unwary snap them up - then, show them to be forgeries, tainted, or substantially incorrect. Even Dan Rather fell for that. Be careful out there.

[BainsBane]

124. Pay attention

The materials are not leaked to the West. It is a Russian newspaper that has them. If it is published, you can then inspect the document. It will, of course, be in Russian and published in Russian. How much Russian do you know? I had three semesters in college--very little, but more than most here, I expect.

Putin is plenty smart. You clearly know very little about him or his rise to power. Rove is an amateur compared to Putin, and a pauper too. One example of Putin's successes is how many people in this country he has justifying empire building and killing in the Ukraine. Document or not, that is what you all are doing, and quite gleefully. And most of you all don't even get a salary, but here we hear time and time again how war is justified because you don't like Ukrainians and their views. A lot of wars and loss of life could be justified that same way. People who are anti-war do not behave that way.

As for Putin's propaganda, i have seen people here give the the exact same excuses that I have heard Putin make, so don't tell me they aren't regurgitating his propaganda. And none of that has anything to do with opposition to US intervention. It's all about justifying war in the Ukraine.

[leveymg]

153. Trying to assess the credibility of information is a part of Open Source analysis

That's essentially what we're doing here, those of us who are making a good-faith effort to post what in our best judgement is reliable information. There are some rules of verification that go along with that.

First of all, consider the sources of the information and whether there is any documentation, and its provenance. Then, retrace to the original source and consider how many steps removed they are, along with the reliability of each step. That is known as "walking back the cat." In this case, according to the article in an on-line publication, BuzzFeed linked in the OP, the undisclosed documents are three steps removed from the original source. The documents were obtained by an opposition Russian newspaper from "a mysterious Russian hacker collective" who claim to have obtained them from email sent to the leader of a semi-official propaganda organization called the Internet Research Agency.

According to the documents, which are attached to several hundred emails sent to the project’s leader, Igor Osadchy, the effort was launched in April and is led by a firm called the Internet Research Agency.

Note that the documents described are contained in email sent to Mr. Osadchy. That means the source is actually four steps removed. This raises additional questions -Who sent them? If they are confidential, why were they sent by hackable email account. Who are these hackers, and what do they want? All of these things should raise red flags for the analyst.

This perhaps explains why we are reading about this in BuzzFeed instead of the NYT. I'm not saying the NYT is completely reliable, either, but always consider the sources and make your own best judgement about how reliable they appear to be. That having been said, I wish you best of luck in your endeavors.

[BainsBane]

167. You misunderstand me

I was speaking of a different document, the one laying out the Kremlin's Ukraine strategy that is purportedly in the possession of the editor of Novaya Gazeta. I linked to that in the post you responded to at the start of this subthread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6281152

The point about paid trolls isn't so earth shattering. You'll note that someone else posted upthread that Ukrainians plan a similar campaign.

[leveymg]

169. The same rules of validation apply, in both cases.

I would agree that there are fewer steps in the Novaya Gazeta story as reported by McClatchy that I consider to be a first-rate in its foreign reporting, better than the NYT in many instances.

Nothing would surprise me less than to to see proof that the Kremlin has been planning military intervention in Ukraine for quite a while. But, you know, the Pentagon has similar contingency plans for military incursion in Mexico. If one counts covert operations, the CIA does that every day somewhere in Latin America.

[BainsBane]

171. I do not believe the US wants to invade Mexico

that would send hundreds of thousands of Mexicans over the border. The US clearly has an interest in political stability in Mexico. Surely you can see that. If the Mexican state collapses, it will be because of the drug war and the power of the narcotraficantes. The overriding interest of the US is to prevent that, not further it along. They would prop up governments, find quick replacements, and work as quickly as they could to restore order. That would be done through influence rather than tanks, which would only further destabilize the situation. I would expect they'd dispatch the military to the border, however, to keep the conflict and people from coming over. Mexico has always enjoyed a different relationship with the US than the rest of LA precisely because of the border.

The CIA--actually the US government as a whole, not always the CIA-- did it hundreds of times in Latin America, not everyday. That is something I happen to know a bit about. I have opposed those interventions since I fist learned of them in my teens and attended many a CISPES demonstration. I certainly am not going to turn around and justify the same behavior by Russia, nor should any other leftist of principle.

As I said near the beginning of this discussion, we shall she if the editor publishes the document. Then you can examine it yourself.

[Turbineguy]

78. That explains why so many republicans adore Putin.

They are easily manipulated.

[AtheistCrusader]

93. They'll believe anything printed on WND.

ANYTHING.

[Bradical79]

107. Putin has Republican politicians really confused

They know they're supposed to hate a former KGB agent Russian dictator, but at the same time he represents their ideal pressident.

[CreekDog]

97. They're here

[Bluenorthwest]

103. Obviously, and they are so very bad at the gig. The worst. Transparent fuckery.

It is utterly amazing how many of them claim to be US veterans and also bisexual. Never gay, always 'I am former Marine and Bisexual man'. They also have a really fucked up perception of Americans as having never met any Russians, when millions of Russians live in the US:
Top U.S. communities with the most residents born in Russia are:
1.Peaceful Valley, Washington 12.2%
2.Sharon Springs, New York 6.0%
3.West Buechel, Kentucky 5.7%
4.Big Delta, Alaska 5.6%
5.West Hollywood, California 5.3%
6.Schaefferstown, Pennsylvania 5.2%
7.Deltana, Alaska 5.1%
8.East Whatcom, WA (Whatcom County, Washington) 4.9%
9.Fair Lawn, New Jersey 4.7%
10.Belleville, Pennsylvania 4.5%
11.Sunnyside, Clackamas County, Oregon, West Sacramento, California, and East Yolo, CA (Yolo County, CA) 4.3%


The fact that in Russia there is no counterpart population of American born residents and no history of immigration going back to the 1800's suggests many things, one of which is that Americans might actually have more contact with Russian born Russian speakers than Russians have with American born English speakers. Which is the opposite of the attitude they present.

[Sheepshank]

104. ...and there are the idiots that promote Putin, even without being recruited

I can't help but imagine how easy it is to recruite Republicans since they easily justify any mantra that slams Obama.

Never in a million years did I ever imagine that any public American figure would praise a Russian politician over their own President. They clearly hate Obama more than they love America!!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

106. But....but.....Robert Parry is a national treasure!

[MattSh]

108. Buzzfeed?

Freakin' Buzzfeed? We're supposed to accept Buzzfeed as serious journalism now?

[Bluenorthwest]

119. That's so ironically amusing because on threads where people question the credibility of RT your

argument is that they should counter the statements rather than attack the source. Situational standards are a hallmark of the orthodox right wing.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

120. Dude, you once quoted Paul Craig Roberts as supporting authority.

Paul Craig Roberts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024526436

Paul.
Craig.
Roberts.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/09/10/911-13-years-paul-craig-roberts/

I will take Max Seddon on Buzzfeed over Paul Craig Freakin' Roberts any day of the week.

[zappaman]

123. Ouch.

That's gonna leave a mark.

[geek tragedy]

135. That poster also cites the Jew-hating Holocaust deniers at Vineyardsaker

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=mattsh+vineyardsaker+site:democraticunderground.com&safe=active

They don't believe anything that Russian state media doesn't tell them.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

136. Any port in the storm, I suppose. nt

[geek tragedy]

139. Those who bleat the loudest about supposed fascist elements in Ukraine

tend to be fascists themselves, just of the Russian nationalist variety.

[zappaman]

145. He's not the only one who copy/pastes from Anti-Semitic hate sites.

Many here don't care what shithole it comes from as long as it supports their delusions.

[Behind the Aegis]

265. Actually, many don't care BECAUSE of the target of the hated.

It is amazing the number of anti-Semitic authors who are used to speak "truthtopower", but in actuality it is nothing but bald-faced bigotry gussied up to be more palatable. Goebbels would be proud!

[BainsBane]

376. Did you see the lament about the Dresden bombing?

There really is no bottom.

[uhnope]

148. Game, set, match

[SidDithers]

113. Putin boot-lickers abound...

They're entertaining, if nothing else.

Sid

[Tommy_Carcetti]

114. SILENCE, SKINNER!

[SidDithers]

115. Is that Matt Berry?...

Loved him in The IT Crowd.

Edit: that is the IT Crowd, isn't it? I don't recognize the episode though.

Sid

[Tommy_Carcetti]

117. "Your name is Maurice Moss, is it not?"

And yes, that picture was from the IT Crowd.

[SidDithers]

118. Brilliant...

Sid

[CreekDog]

187. .

[YoungDemCA]

351. A lot of them claim to be against warmongering and imperialism from the US

Key part being: from the US.

The irony....

[NCTraveler]

121. That is something I can understand.

It makes sense. What I don't get are the ones who aren't getting paid yet claim to be a part of the left. Rt this and rt that. Suckers doing their work for free is the strange part.

[BainsBane]

128. I'm with you there

and the sad thing is many of them aren't paid, though I expect the trolls have influenced their thinking. We have had the paid ones on our site. One was over on DI the other day and admitted to some of his names here.

[sheshe2]

122. KnR

[Tommy_Carcetti]

144. On a completely unrelated note, I wonder what Catherina is up to?

Just wonderin'. No reason.

[zappaman]

146. This is a great thread...

And it just keeps getting better!

[stevenleser]

271. Not sure if it was Facebook or where it was but I saw posts of hers continuing

Last edited Fri Feb 27, 2015, 10:48 AM - Edit history (1)

To shill for Russia and Putin.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

290. She had a Twitter page.

It was called "Catherina News".

Mostly it contained vitriolic attacks on President Obama that you'd expect to see at Free Republic (if not worse), reposting adoring pictures of Putin to the point of cult of personality, and extremely creepy nostalgia towards the Stalinist era Soviet Union.

But she stopped posting anything on it, at least publicly, a few months ago, so I don't know the story there.

When it comes to constantly pushing the Russian official line on matters relating to Ukraine, you have two camps here at DU. You have gullible dupes unwittingly drawn in to Russian propoganda due to an initially rational suspicion of US foreign policy based on past events (i.e. useful idiots), and then you have the people who actually know they are apologizing for Putin and company. The latter category is much rarer, but Catherina certainly appeared to be one of those.

[leveymg]

374. With all your talk about Soviet "dupes," the question is who you sound more like here . . .

or

Re:

You have gullible dupes unwittingly drawn in to Russian propoganda due to an initially rational suspicion of US foreign policy based on past events (i.e. useful idiots), and then you have the people who actually know they are apologizing for Putin and company. The latter category is much rarer, but Catherina certainly appeared to be one of those.

You crossed a line into actual McCarthyism when you name names of DU members, or inactive members, and accuse them of being either "useful idiots" for the Kremlin or "know they are apologizing for Putin."

You are entitled to express your opinions about Russia or Putin or related matters. While I appreciate your efforts to counter some of the nonsense that gets reposted here without qualification from dubious sources, personal attacks aren't in the spirit of open debate at DU. I haven't alerted, but would like to hear your response.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

377. Being a useful idiot isn't that difficult.

Often times, one can get swept up into a frenzy without even thinking about it--you start off with the best of intentions, someone with an agenda takes advantage of you, and suddenly they have you parroting their agenda without you even thinking twice about it.

And when it comes to the Ukrainian-Russian conflict, I would say the vast, vast majority (95%? 98%? 99%?) of folks here raising claims of a "US sponsored coup" in Ukraine are of the useful idiot variety, not of the Putin apologist variety.

Russian propagandists know after horrible debacles of US interventionism such as Iraq (or if you want to reach back further, Iran or Chile), people have a right to be distrustful of US foreign policy. There are a lot of angry, upset people out there, for all the right reasons. But that distrust is exploited by those propagandists to cover the tracks of Russia's own horrid record of foreign interventionism, in this case against its direct neighbor that they've exploited for centuries. But hey, if there's a regime change, the US must be behind it--that's what's trumpeted. And after a while, it seems to make a lot of sense.

They fart, and then they blame it on the ever-flatulent dog. And because that dog has frequently farted in the past, well....it just seems to make sense. Even when they themselves are the ones who have farted in this case.

But the much more malicious Putin apologist variety....I only believe people fit that label when they've expressed that sentiment with their own words. So if you excuse the Russian invasion of Crimea by comparing the interim government of Ukraine to the Third Reich and claiming that "Putin knows his history", that's a clear indicator. Or if you maintain a Twitter page and you are constantly posting adoring pictures of Putin and lauding Stalinist era accomplishments of the Soviet Union (all while throwing some of the most horrid vitriolic language and imagery towards President Obama), that's also a clear indicator.

I'm not going to label everyone who posts conspiracy theories about Ukraine as a "Putin apologist". That's not my game, and never has been. But when someone unequivocally shows themselves to be one, I'm not going to hold back.

[FairWinds]

149. Hey Mr. Bains (gotta be a "Mister")

Why do you have to re-write history to make your points?
You wrote - "There was no US coup, and you need to knock that BS off."
Of course, as you well know, nobody said it was a "US coup." You made that up.
Were the US and NATO involved in the overthrow of an elected government?
Absolutely.
Then you compound your error by by using the old guilt by association trick,
writing that anyone who disagrees with you is a com-symp - opps, I mean Putin-symp.

And by the way, many of us saw this coming from a long way off and called for
a de-militarized zone in Central Europe back as far as the early 1990's.
We were ignored by the militarists in DC.

I'm a proud member of Veterans For Peace. Here is part of a recent statement
they issued on the Ukraine crisis. I support it fully and proudly.

(2014) "In February of this year, the U.S. government supported the violent overthrow of the elected president of Ukraine, after he decided against entering into an exclusive economic and political agreement with the European Union. Hundreds of thousands of people in western Ukraine were in the streets calling for the president to step down, for a variety of reasons including corruption. But extreme right-wing nationalist militias led the mob violence that sent the president packing, and neo-fascist leaders now hold key positions in the U.S.-backed government in Kiev, including overseeing the military and police. - See more at: http://www.veteransforpeace.org/our-work/position-statements/no-war-over-ukraine/#sthash.P7vYKZGP.dpuf

[Tommy_Carcetti]

150. Numerous people--both here at DU and otherwise--have alleged it was a "US coup".

They of course would be dead wrong in that proposition, but that conspiracy theory has been made by several DU posters many times over.

[BainsBane]

154. This is getting surreal

the more they scramble the more they backtrack. Why can't people just admit they were wrong?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

156. I don't know, Mr. Bains.....

....or should I say SKINNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BainsBane]

157. Ah, the Skinner-IMF-HOF cabal

the circle is complete.

[NuclearDem]

151. ...

And by the way, many of us saw this coming from a long way off and called for
a de-militarized zone in Central Europe back as far as the early 1990's.

You don't get to decide what Central or Eastern European countries do with their own destiny.

If Russia's upset that former members of the Warsaw Pact or the USSR are flocking to join NATO, too bad. There may just be a reason behind that.

And for the record, BB's female.

[BainsBane]

152. "No one said there was a US coup"

What complete and utter bullshit. This site was full of posts claiming just that, and you can easily do a search for them.

It's Dr. Bains, actually, a Ms. Dr. Bains. The sig line about stopping violence against women should be a clue to that. Besides, I'm a bit sad you don't know my reputation among the lead feminazis. How far we HOF women have fallen.

[NuclearDem]

159. You guys need to start another round of emasculation and castrations.

Mine was so long ago even I've forgotten who's in charge here.

[BainsBane]

166. I would propose we start with Putin himself

but I don't know how my fellow man-hating sisters would feel about that. We make a point of not mixing politics with pleasure.

[JustAnotherGen]

160. We are losing our touch!

[leveymg]

161. I will back you up on that one, Dr. Bains The word coup has been used, and misapplied in this case

by a number of posters and by some journalists, including Robert Parry.

I would say the proper description of the situation leading to the departure of the previous Ukrainian government was: regime change following destabilization. The present situation is civil war with "dual sovereignty," neither side having solidified control and both claiming the allegiance of parts of the population. The likely outcome, if mediation does not work, is secession and division into two separate states.

[Rex]

165. If someone trusts Pooty Poot, they might as well trust George Bush Sr.

Both are evil fucks that ruled over their respective intelligence gathering agencies. I wouldn't trust either with a wooden nickle.

[MBS]

172. " " " " n/t

[FairWinds]

175. I'm sure y'all will welcome . .

the day when Russia de-stabilizes the Mexican government, assists in a coup, draws up a military alliance between the two parties, and sends in lots of weaponry.

And BTW, I'm curious as to the proper politically correct usage of the term "US coup."
Would the coup in Chile in 1973 qualify? How about Brazil in 1964?

Please advise us here. We would not want to offend.

And speaking of de-militarized zones, we will soon be marking the 200th anniversary
of the Rush-Bagot Treaty which successfully (mostly) disarmed the Great Lakes and
the US-Canadian border.

What's not to like?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

178. The definition of the term "coup d'etat" in general:

: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup%20d'%C3%A9tat

Given that the regime change in Ukraine was not a coup (Yanukovych made a voluntary decision to leave on his own terms, and there was no identifiable small group that carried the process out), it logically follows that what happened was not a "US sponsored coup".

[BainsBane]

200. And what does that have to do with his post giving a definition of a coup?

[NuclearDem]

204. A thirteen second clip without any relevant context?

That PROVES it!

[Bobbie Jo]

206. Good to know

Welcome to DU, today.

[arcane1]

207. Polly, is that you?

[zappaman]

216. Well, that didn't take long!

[BainsBane]

233. How would a random troll know her occupation?

It does make one wonder,

[Tommy_Carcetti]

248. Polly and GWYM were a tag team of sorts.

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/101697639#post12

And whenever GWYM went on DU vacation, she'd chime in and shame us for doing it.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

225. Well, okay then.

[Rex]

180. Do you know anything about the Mexican government? If you did you would not even

be posting such hogwash. How will Russia de-stabilize the drug cartels that run Mexico? Are they just going to off three drug lord kingpins and replace them with Russian agents?

I'm all ears.

[NuclearDem]

188. You can stop justifying Russia's carving up of former Soviet republics any time now.

[geek tragedy]

194. The US did not de-stabilize the Ukrainian government, did not assist in a coup

against the Ukrainian government, did not draw up a military alliance with anyone inside Ukraine, and did not send in any weaponry.

You should stop relying on Russian state media. It apparently has led you astray.

Chile 1973 was a "US coup."

[BainsBane]

197. Yes, Chile and Brazil qualify as coups

Last edited Thu Feb 26, 2015, 09:39 PM - Edit history (1)

The US was directly involved in only one of the those coups. The Brazilian military actually declined US military assistance.

Why would you think citing examples of US transgressions makes it okay for Russia to invade the Ukraine? Sounds sort of like defending Ted Bundy by pointing to the Green River killer.

Is there some reason you continue this hit and run without sustaining any one of your claims? First you insist no one here claimed there was a US coup, now that US treaties and foreign interventions explains why you are in the tank for Russia. You are posting on a board of leftists who in general oppose regime change, coups and the like, yet for some you are here insisting it's all okay when Russia does it. You sound increasingly ridiculous in your excuses and do your cause no good whatsoever.

[one_voice]

192. K&R

[bvar22]

195. Does anyone here believe that the US Government does NOT do the very same thing?

...along with both dominant political parties?

[BainsBane]

213. Is that supposed to make it okay?

You'll have to be specific about the "very same thing." The US certainly is an imperial power. They have not, however, invaded either of their neighbors territory in a century. The last time I'm aware of is when Pershing's forces pursed Pancho Villa. It was a limited and fruitless expedition.


The "nah, nah, he did it first" excuse does not justify the warmongering by the pro-Putin contingency. I would have thought enough people were dying around the world for people here to want more of it. Justifying war by the Russians is the opposite of an anti-war position. It is in fact warmongering. Death is no less permanent at Russian hands than American.

[nationalize the fed]

264. Hope this helps

The United States has been involved in and assisted in the overthrow of foreign governments (more recently termed "regime change&quot without the overt use of U.S. military force. Often, such operations are tasked to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

Regime change has been attempted through direct involvement of U.S. operatives, the funding and training of insurgency groups within these countries, anti-regime propaganda campaigns, coups d'état, and other activities usually conducted as operations by the CIA. These actions were sometimes accompanied by direct military action, such as following the U.S. invasion of Panama in 1989 and the U.S.-led military invasion of Iraq in 2003

Some argue that non-transparent United States government agencies working in secret sometimes mislead or do not fully implement the decisions of elected civilian leaders and that this has been an important component of many such operations,[1] Some contend that the U.S. has supported more coups against democracies that it perceived as communist, becoming communist, or pro-communist.

1 During the Cold War

1.1 Syria 1949
1.2 Iran 1953
1.3 Guatemala 1954
1.4 Tibet 1955–70s
1.5 Indonesia 1958
1.6 Cuba 1959
1.7 Iraq 1960–63
1.8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
1.9 Dominican Republic 1961
1.10 South Vietnam 1963
1.11 Brazil 1964
1.12 Ghana 1966
1.13 Chile 1970–73
1.14 Argentina 1976
1.15 Afghanistan 1979–89
1.16 Turkey 1980
1.17 Poland 1980–89
1.18 Nicaragua 1981–90
1.18.1 Destablization through CIA assets
1.18.2 Arming the Contras

2 Since the end of the Cold War

2.1 Iraq 1992–96
2.2 Venezuela 2002
2.3 Iran 2005–present
2.4 Syria 2012–present

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

[SidDithers]

287. Green for victory!!...nt

Sid

[NuclearDem]

288. Yummy copypasta

[BainsBane]

289. Why should it help?

The question I posed about what exactly he meant by the same thing was not to illicit a list of events covered in history textbooks but rather an explanation of what the poster meant by the exact same thing. A list does not accomplish that. Nor does it justify warmongering for Russia.

Most of your list is a matter of public record, and I have already discussed many of those interventions in this very thread. I really am not interested in taking lessons on Latin America in particular from people who have only just Googled something. One can easily draw up a similar list for Russia. All of this amounts to the "he did it first" excuse, the very thing I criticized in the post you responded to. And somehow you think giving more examples explains why it's okay to cheer lead on war on the Ukraine.

That you post your silly photo of Kissinger with Clinton only highlights how little you know about this issue. Kissinger has in fact warned about the expansion of NATO for some time and predicted that Russia would not respond well. Naturally you throw Clinton in there because if there is a chance to show how lacking she is in comparison to a real man like Putin, that can't be passed up. If only she had journalists and the political opposition killed and knew how to keep the gays in line, then she would earn the adoration of Putin's fan club.

[freshwest]

202. He's doing a great job and it's very cost effective.

[DescendantOfMany]

208. And they use America's history of red-baiting to ostracize anyone who calls them out.

'Joe McCarthy did something decades ago, blah blah blah.'

Seen it in every comments section they've infected.

[BainsBane]

218. Red baiting? Putin isn't a red

The remaining socialists in Russia oppose him and his imperialist actions. Cut the shit. Putin is far to the right.
Jesus. You expect anyone to take your seriously when you don't even know Russia hasn't been communist in over 20 years?!!!

Edit: I may be totally confused here. I apologize for jumping the gun.

[NuclearDem]

230. I think the post you replied to is actually agreeing with you.

He's just pointing out another tactic used by Putin trolls.

[BainsBane]

231. No, he (I'm starting to think it's a she)

is not. See the other posts in the thread.

[BainsBane]

232. Maybe you're right

All these new names and hit and dodge posts have given me a headache.

[DescendantOfMany]

244. I'm on your side.

The fact he's a far-right asshole doesn't stop them from reaching back to the Soviet Union days.

[BainsBane]

246. I apologize.

Welcome to DU.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

229. Good to see you again, GoWest.

[William769]

243. Speaking of troll armies, look at all the name removed in this thread!

You can't make this shit up!

[geek tragedy]

249. go south, young poster! nt

[William769]

251. Or get your wings clipped!

[BainsBane]

252. That's some nasty Northern Exposure.

Last edited Fri Feb 27, 2015, 01:33 AM - Edit history (1)

[Blue_Tires]

255. I'm surprised to see how little discussion there has been about this

Of course, if the story was titled "Documents show how NSA's troll army hit foreign countries", the Snowdenistas would be howling about it for a month...

[YoungDemCA]

352. Ah yes...that profile in courage, fleeing to Putin's Russia

Because the US is "no longer a free country."

[Blue_Tires]

256. Because this hasn't gotten nearly enough attention:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016115227

[BainsBane]

257. I didn't realize you had posted about that

and it was you who posted about the document the editor from Novaya Gazaeta says he will publish. Well done.

[FairWinds]

258. Hey Doc Bains . .

I was not even going to get into this thread until I saw what I regarded as bullying language by you . . and could not let it pass.

like this - those who disagree with you have "hatred for their own nation that verges on pathological self loathing." And of course, much more.

Isn't it over the top, not to mention out of bounds, to ascribe such emotions to people you have not even met? We're pathological? Really?

Do you communicate like that to your colleagues? Do you have any colleagues? If so, you won't for long with that sort of rhetoric.

And thanks to "leveymg" for his/her spot on comments on sources, and for being so darned civil.

Of course, there are numerous credible sources on the very significant US role in the Ukraine "transition."

Interestingly, it was not known for years how extensive was the US role in the '64 Brazil coup. Dr. Phyllis Parker opened my eyes.
http://utpress.utexas.edu/index.php/books/parbra

Similarly, do you really think that we know all there is to know about Ukraine, 2014 ?

[BainsBane]

260. I'm well aware of the 1964 coup

which does not constitute evidence on the Ukraine. How is it that you can not summon yourself to engage with any points about the subject under discussion?

It's nice you finally learned some of the US and Latin American history many of us have known for decades. If you are looking for an indicting example of US intervention in Latin America, the overthrow of Goulart is not the best choice. The Brazilian military declined the US offer of assistance in that case. I suggest you look to Chile in 1973, the Platt period in Cuba, or Central America in the 1980s. I always encourage Americans to learn about the history of their nation's actions abroad, particularly in Latin America. None of that, of course, explains why you would then stump for empire by Russia or become so angry when people object to it. Your explanation amounts to "he did it first."

I suggest you look up the word bullying in the dictionary. It does not cover being confronted with arguments and information you find inconvenient.

You are doing a very poor job of justifying Russian policy in the Ukraine. Bureaucratic Authoritarianism in Latin America in the mid-20th century is hardly an excuse for warmongering in Eastern Europe today. Your inability to muster any discussion or evidence about the subject matter says worlds about the strength of your cause.

[GP6971]

268. Let's not forget Panama

or Grenada for that matter. Panama I can, I repeat can, kind of see, but. Not really. Grenada.....not so much. Trumped up situation Ronny created to test his new military.

[BainsBane]

282. There have been scores of invasions and coups by the US in Latin America

since the late 19th century. The marines were sent into the Caribbean basin dozens of times in the early 20th century alone. It's standard information in survey histories. A few here seem to think they have stumbled on some revelation. but one can read about it in any text book covering Latin America's national period.

[Tarheel_Dem]

280. Well, they better work harder, cuz they're failing miserably, if you believe polling.

[Sunlei]

299. probably the same media businesses that republicans use

scammers!

[BainsBane]

301. Republicans hired Russian PR firms?

How does that work?

[Sunlei]

302. russia doesn't even have internet PR firms. Putin has been *slow* when it comes to computers.

[BainsBane]

304. Read the article.

[Sunlei]

310. I did, and I still think russias internet 'experience' is in the stone age.

[BainsBane]

321. Could be. I don't know about any of that.

[Sunlei]

308. The Admin sees their ru IPs or perhaps they work from the USA.

places like facebook, twitter, comment sections and messageboards push for registrations to use real names/locations. facebook/twitter should be deleting the extra accounts.

How about all these places expose IP? I'm all for that.

[YoungDemCA]

349. In America, people troll the government

In Soviet Russia, the government trolls you!

Meh....I got nuthin'.

K&R.

[Android3.14]

353. I wonder which DU profiles have been under contract

Who'd a thunk the Kremlin would adopt GOP tactics?

[BainsBane]

375. I have a pretty strong hunch one banned member is one of them

He's spread the propaganda relentlessly between here and DU. There is speculation upthread about some others too. I think most of the pro-Putin posts we see here, however, are by people who are not paid but rather uncritically swallow whatever the Kremlin tells them.

[FairWinds]

383. Very suspicious mutual admiration going on here . .

in which any dissent is "cyber-shouted" down.

As the the "Voice of Reason" noted above, "the problem with both these reports
is that they rely on Russian 'documents' that don't appear to have any way of being
verified and no established provenance." And all we are left with is Buzzfeed.
Amid the shouting, that issue was never addressed. Coincidence?

And Dresden was bombed by the British, not the US - but it was still
a ghastly crime against humanity. Ask Kurt Vonnegut.

And OK Dr. Bains, since you are into throwing your academic weight around,
lets compare time spent living in Latin America, countries in which research was conducted,
as well as publications on the region.

[BainsBane]

385. I have something much better for you

and it's not from BuzzFeed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026288703

[FairWinds]

384. Slight Correction Alert -

the USAF did bomb Dresden, but made some effort to avoid indiscriminate "area bombing"
of the civilians in the city center, and not at night - when infrastructure targets
could not even be identified. And the US bombing was also several days after the
initial devastating British air assault.
The bombing of Dresden was sufficiently controversial that even Churchill tried
to distance himself from it.

And allow me to observe, Dr. Bains, that if the Dresden bombing does not make
you at least uneasy (as it apparently does not in the slightest), I really do not
believe your claims of being some sort of progressive, anti-imperialist.

And what's worse, you are still a bully.

[R B Garr]

386. More corrections: Churchill ordered the bombing. It was firebombed

Last edited Sat Feb 28, 2015, 01:07 PM - Edit history (1)

by the Brits with the US doing more strategic bombing of the railroad. It's well-known that during the war, the Brits bombed at night and the US during the day for precision. Most importantly: no one really knows the exact strategy behind Dresden, so it's ridiculous to troll people on a message board 60 years later with moral superiority about whether they feel more remorse about it than you do. How can that be measured, anyway.

The most prevailing strategies about Dresden is that it was done to take out communication lines because it had been basically untouched during the war, take out the railroad because people were fleeing to Dresden, and break the will of the Germans into total surrender.

Again, it's ridiculous to try and shame people and play moral superiority games.

[FairWinds]

387. the other side(s) began with the Dresden stuff . .

and made the ridiculous point that anyone who felt bad
about killing German civilians was pro-Nazi.
That is what I was responding to.

Veterans For Peace has a clear position against imperialism
of whatever stripe, and I share it.

[R B Garr]

388. The "other side(s)"?? So you're on a "side"? Got it.

I've seen Dresden brought up to troll the US, as we are apparently all "war mongers" led by the nose by John McCain and the neocons from the Bush era. When those accusations didn't gain traction as being credible, the anti-American sentiment about prior bombings have been brought up as some kind of morality trolling now. It's really quite ridiculous.

[BainsBane]

405. I'll take the opposite side of Hitler anyday

I didn't even think that was a question for anyone but neo-nazis. Now I've seen two raise it.

[R B Garr]

415. Exactly. It's really odd that none of them mention the Jews who were

slaughtered by the millions under the Nazis. I guess only those from the right country and the right background get the sympathy. Amazing.

[BainsBane]

416. Nor do they mention the LGBT repressed and imprisoned by Putin.

Not a priority, it seems.

[BainsBane]

389. Poor Hitler

So abused by the allied powers.

If you support peace, why are you so upset that people criticize Russian annexation of the Ukraine? Why do you continue to distract from this issue with unrelated points, like my credentials, which have no bearing on this issue?
And why are you not engaging with the thread that has the Kremlin strategy document on that annexation?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026279986

What makes you think killing matters less when done by a country other than the US? You are flailing from one point to another to justify war, and then claim you are against it? As someone rightly pointed out elsewhere in this thread, such a position is not anti-imperialist but rather anti-Western.

[ND-Dem]

422. do documents show how the US is trying to oust Putin?

[BainsBane]

425. Seriously?

I know nothing about that, but don't you think it's a fool's errand? Nemtsov learned what happens when you cross Putin, just like Litvinenko and others before him. Speaking of documents, this one is interesting. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026288703
I look forward to your response in the other thread.

[Renew Deal]

426. Do you have a link to those documents?

[ND-Dem]

427. Since my question was about whether they existed, why would you think I had a link to them?

[BainsBane]

428. So basically you're making shit up for the sake of it, while ignoring actual evidence.

[ND-Dem]

437. so basically you have a problem reading what i wrote and prefer to invent something.

I won't be responding to your posts any further, it's pointless when you prefer to invent your own posts.

[BainsBane]

451. That's one way of avoid inconvenient information