Hillary Clinton Leads All Republican(t) challengers

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Hillary Clinton Room Post-Clinton leads General, Primary-PPP poll

Hillary Clinton Room Post

Public Policy Polling

PPP's newest national poll finds Hillary Clinton leading all of her potential Republican candidates by between 7 and 10 points. She has 7 point advantages over Rand Paul (47/40), and Rick Perry and Marco Rubio (48/41). She has 8 point advantages over Ben Carson, Chris Christie, and Scott Walker all at 48/40. Her advantage over Mike Huckabee is 9 points at 50/41, and she's up 10 points each over Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz at 50/40.

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2015/02/clinton-leads-general-primary.html

IF YOU LIKE THE RESULTS OF THIS POLL PLEASE RECOMMEND IT

[hrmjustin]

1. It's a MSM conspiracy to make her look good dammit!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. BOOM

Clinton has more than 50% support for the Democratic nomination with liberals, moderates, women, whites, Hispanics, African Americans, younger voters, and seniors. The only 2 demographic groups we track where she falls a little bit short of that mark are men and middle aged voters.

[hrmjustin]

12. But I thought she was a sure loser. thats what I learned on DU.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. It's either an extreme case of vanity or idiocy ...

It's either an extreme case of vanity or idiocy for a person to believe everybody thinks like himself or herself.

[hrmjustin]

19. Well said!

[PedXing]

129. I guess you missed the 2008 Democratic primaries.

[hrmjustin]

130. No I did not. i campaigned for her and welcome to DU.

[PedXing]

135. I think it awesome you campaigned for your candidate!

My daughter's first two presidential votes were for President Obama. I would love to see a female president and Hillary is the best chance for that in the near future.

[hrmjustin]

137. Thanks and again welcome.

[PedXing]

171. I'm glad to be here, thanks.

[AgingAmerican]

189. That was last time

...this time it's different

[hrmjustin]

190. This time she win.

[TheKentuckian]

25. What does looking to be popular have to do with looking good?

[hrmjustin]

27. It was a play on what others have said here. a joke.

[TheKentuckian]

163. So nothing. Gotcha.

[randys1]

65. While I am not a big fan of mainstream anything, I am very hopeful that If she is the nominee

and IF she is elected, the first WOMAN president of the USA, after the first AfAm President.

Well hell, talk about sending a message to that white, straight, misogynist group of Americans which will be DEAFENING

And as friendly as I am certain she will be with Wall Street, I am also certain that Women's rights might actually make the front page of what is important for once.

Obama was too busy with HC and racists to deal with some stuff, but Hillary will be ready for the hate where Obama really wasnt



p.s. if you look at what Obama has accomplished, it is as if he is Superman, by the way

[misterhighwasted]

77. oh the conspiracy.

Haaaha

[Tuesday Afternoon]

2. If Hillary runs she will get a lot of cross over votes. I know many Rs in my area who have already

said they will vote for her. This is coming from one of the reddest counties in purple/red state.

anecdotal evidence, I realize.

Still ...

[Cali_Democrat]

22. This is true....but it also begs the question...

why would those people vote for her, but not Obama when it appears both are very similar in terms of policy?

What makes Obama so much more different than Hillary where these folks are willing to vote for Hillary, but not Obama?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. Subconscious racism but I believe that group is small.

It's always been my contention that if you weren't inclined to vote for an African American you probably weren't inclined to vote for a Democrat...

I see both of em performing the same with the same groups with HRC doing a tad bit better among Latinos and women.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. oh Honey, around here it is Not even Subconscious. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. Where are you?/NT

[Tuesday Afternoon]

64. sorry. This is the internet and I do not post outright where I am. you understand, I hope.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. Sure, np, /NT

[Tuesday Afternoon]

29. Please, don't make me pull out that card.

that and because the General Population is about as bright as the dirty dishrag in my sink right now.

[GreatGazoo]

44. JEB is perceived as a "big government" insider by the Righties

They blame his father for pooping on Reagan's legacy and his brother for ruining the GOP brand. It is not just the fringe that is hating John Bush, from Reuters:

Then President George W. Bush took office and rolled out compassionate conservatism, viewed by conservatives as yet another rebuke of Reagan’s brand of conservatism. Because compassionate conservatism also meant “big government Republicanism.”

Bush’s varied programs included No Child Left Behind, nation-building in faraway lands and unnecessary wars, bloated farm and transportation bills, and the explosive growth of medical welfare for senior citizens. Combined, they were a vehicle to blow a hole in the budget, squandering the $280-billion surplus left by Clinton. (The Clinton administration had projected this surplus would increase to close to $5 trillion within a decade.) The GOP Congress — at Bush’s bidding — greatly expanded government and increased the national debt by trillions.

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/02/06/a-president-jeb-bush-would-trample-on-reagans-legacy/

Bill Clinton ran a smaller government than any of the Bushes.

[Reter]

57. I don't blame them, she will vote in their interests

[CrispyQ]

107. I too know many repubs that say they will vote for her.

Which leaves me wondering, "Why would I support a candidate that republicans support?"

[Tuesday Afternoon]

159. Yeah, pretty much my thinking, too. I know a lot

Of -R women that like her and men too for that matter. Just goes to show (to me) just how far right the R party has gone.

[AgingAmerican]

191. Yeah, right

The GOP just love the Clinton's, as we all well remember. If I recall, most Republican women were convinced that Hillary was a witch.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

194. that is a pretty broad brush you are using there ... {MOST Republican women.}

Maybe where you live but, I tell you a lot of Rs in my area LIKE Hillary, especially the women.

Hillary will get a lot of women voters if she runs and, is not challenged in the primary and, gets to the general election,
Hillary will get A lot of WOMEN'S VOTES. R women WILL cross over to VOTE FOR A WOMAN. Period. End of discussion.

DUH and DERP.

You understand this, right?

[AgingAmerican]

195. Where were you during the 90s?

Republican women hate Hillary and if you believe that Republican women are going to put Hillary over the top, I have a couple bridges to sell you.

Or to put it more bluntly; Cool story, ma'am.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

196. whatever. I almost hope she runs now just to prove you wrong. We could do a lot worse than her.

put that in your blunt and smoke it.

[AgingAmerican]

197. I'll sell you half of Mars, REAL cheap! The side with the face and pyramids!!1!

Then you can populate it with all these Clinton loving Republican women. For an additional $20 I will build you a ladder to mars. Much cheaper than building a spaceship to fly them there.

[AgingAmerican]

199. Awe, shucks!

Good luck with your Republicans heart Hillary crusade

[VanillaRhapsody]

4. and this has CONSISTENTLY been her record....

Much to the consternation of the Left Leaning Independents on DU!

[android fan]

5. Question for you all..

how about Generic Democrat vs those idiots?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. There is a pretty big electability difference on the Democratic side though.

There is a pretty big electability difference on the Democratic side though. In the off chance that Clinton were not to run for President, both Joe Biden (45/39) and Elizabeth Warren (43/41) would trail Jeb Bush in hypothetical contests. We've pretty consistently found Clinton running about 10 points better against the Republican field than potential Democratic alternatives.

[android fan]

14. Interesting.

Thank you!

I think the polls at this stage are overrated, but I think it's mainly name recognition at the point...

I think the primaries will be underway starting next month....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Yes And No

Yes, polls are snap shots.

No, it better to be ahead than behind.

[VanillaRhapsody]

10. How about we don't need to use Generic....we KNOW that Hillary has consistently had this record...

and the fact that she is 50 points ahead of the rest of the pack of Democrats...sort of makes your point moot!

[android fan]

21. I'm a Sanders supporter

and you may call me "Left Leaning Independent" for now, - when Bernie Sanders declares his affiliation to the Democratic Party next month and throws his hat in, then you would have to address me as a fellow Democratic supporter who thinks Bernie can go all the way and win the nomination.

I still believe you are taking the polls way too seriously and using it to herald Clinton as the coronated one again. May I remind you, carefully, what happened in 2008? Very ugly primary, with the result of the fracturing the Democratic Party with no direction as to where to go.

[VanillaRhapsody]

24. If you are not willing to vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton should she win the Primary

then that still makes one a Left Leaning Independent

How can you even use the term "coronation" when you are looking right AT the statistics right on this page!

I know why....because you have a pre-conceived narrative...that's why!

[android fan]

26. If she does win the nomination....

Then yes, she has my vote.

But she has a long way to go, and a lot of primaries to get through, and voters to talk to.

And she hasn't quite announced yet....

and neither has Bernie.

So we just have to sit on our hands and try not to intimidate people...

[VanillaRhapsody]

115. and a 50 point lead....and double digit leads over all Republicans....

and she only loses to Jeb Bush by 3 and tied at 46 to Walker in FREAKING South Carolina!

Do you have anyone in mind that has better odds?

[Cosmic Kitten]

108. Pre-concived narrative you say?

That pretty much defines the pro-Hillary
spin we see here EVERY day.

She is INEVITABLE!!!11!1!1
according to 691 people

PPP surveyed 691 registered voters,
including 310 Democratic primary voters, from February 20th to 22nd.
The margin of error for the overall survey is +/- 3.7%,
and for the Democratic primary component it’s +/-5.6%.
This survey was conducted through automated telephone interviews
and interviews over the internet to voters who don’t have landline phone

[William769]

32. Senator Sanders knows he does not have a rats chance in hell

Of securing the Democratic nomination.

If he runs, he will do so as an Independent so his voice will be heard.

That's the plain simple fact.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

35. I thought Sanders has already said he would NOT run as an I. Pretty sure I read it on here.

About a month ago.

[William769]

37. I don't remember that.

If that's true then he will not run.

The Democratic party will not give an outsider the nomination. Anyone with a inkling of past Democratic experience knows that.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

41. Let me see if I can find the link/thread. Give me a minute.

[VanillaRhapsody]

42. Cue Jeopardy theme...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

48. cute.

[NCTraveler]

51. I do recall what you are saying.

I believe he said he wouldn't run as an I. Not that it is that big of a deal.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

70. It is still so early in the process that I really take a lot of this "posturing"

with a grain of salt, don't you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. Here

If Bernie Sanders Runs For President, It Won’t Be as an Independent: “I will not be a spoiler."


http://inthesetimes.com/article/17572/bernie_sanders_president

[Tuesday Afternoon]

55. yes, thanks.

[NCTraveler]

60. I think this is where the thought came from.

I could be wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026140372

Posting to you and not the other member because of their passive-aggressive tone toward you. Sorry Tuesday, I would rather they converse with you and not me. lol.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

67. no problem -

[Tuesday Afternoon]

53. take your pick --- ~o^o~

https://www.google.com/search?q=bernie+will+not+run+as+Independent&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com&gws_rd=ssl

[William769]

62. Thanks.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

66. you are most welcome

good to see you

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. He said he wouldn't be a spoiler and should be taken at his word.

HRC should make him Labor Sec and watch right wing heads explode.

[William769]

58. Agreed.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

61. I say let him cross over D and let Her cross over R and watch DU heads explode

[William769]

68. Why would she do that?

the Hillary haters have lost.

but watching the nonsense that still being posted is hilarious!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

72. she wouldn't, of course. but, in my mind, it is more a truthful reflection of their politics ...

somehow this country has pulled so far to the right and this would pull it more center.

I know, I know.

Try living in My Brain

[Tarheel_Dem]

150. Do you honestly think Sanders would get the nod from his colleagues for Labor Sec? Unless HRC.....

drags a whole bunch of Democrats into office with her, I don't think there's a chance in hell that Bernie would be approved by the Senate Republicans. If Elizabeth Warren couldn't get approved by the Senate, I don't think Bernie stands a chance.

[android fan]

192. You took it out of context.

He said he would not run as an Independent to be a spoiler. He said he would change his party affiliation to Democratic Party when he decides to run, and his announcement is next month.

[nichomachus]

84. No, no, no

If he runs as an independent the two right wings of the Corporate Party -- the Republicans and the Democrats -- will make sure his voice isn't heard.

[zeemike]

143. It is just part of the selling of Hillary as the only one.

And I expect that to grow every day from now until then
If you have millions to spend you can sell it no problem.

[Tarheel_Dem]

154. Please allow me to disabuse you of the notion that Bernie could possibly "win the nomination".

Democratic party chairmen are not going to committ to someone who just joined up to take advantage of party infrastructure & resources. That's not going to happen. You heard it here first. Write it down.

[Logical]

116. You honestly have no idea how early numbers mean nothing! nt

[RadiationTherapy]

6. She can get more if she tracks right in her policy positions!

Votes and donors! Move to the right!

[VanillaRhapsody]

13. She doesn't have to move to the right...she already HAS the donors and support my friend....

and she has EW in her camp!

She polls 50 points ahead of all the other Democrats....she doesn't NEED to do anything at this point.

[RadiationTherapy]

17. Ah, well, that makes it more interesting if she does track right as many candidates do post-primary.

Can she afford any political capital to move left? I would be interested in that for certain.

Good luck to all!

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. what makes you think she will track right? Her record sure doesn't show that...

Perhaps you are just someone else that thinks she is joined at the hip to her husband!

[RadiationTherapy]

178. To me, she is quite conservative, particularly in regard to wealth aggregation.

My opinion that she may track right post-primary is just based on observation of past presidential elections. She has yet to make it past the primary, so I am open to hearing some left critiques of society from her, but I am not holding my breath.

[VanillaRhapsody]

204. To you but you are wrong...You want Left critiques.....here you go...

http://www.ontheissues.org/hillary_clinton.htm

Read up grasshopper!

[android fan]

30. At this point?

Okay, she just can expect that the voters flock and vote for her because she's the One and they barely know her?

Or will the voters flock in and vote for another candidate that they MET and liked their policies and positions?

Let's wait and hear what she has to say on the campaign trail, if she does decide to run.

[VanillaRhapsody]

38. Why is she "expecting" them to? They already are....

she is 50 points ahead of all the other Democratic potentials...including Joe Biden, Warren, or Sanders....she isn't "expecting" anything....the polls show the Democratic Party is "Ready for Hillary".

and she consistently beats all the republican contenders by double digits....you can ignore that stat if you want....but regardless...it IS significant!

[Logical]

117. Why did she just pay off the 2008 debt last year???? nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

118. Perhaps because she is running in 2016?

[Logical]

122. She had trouble raising money, not a good sign! nt

[still_one]

7. I guess the assessment of some on DU regarding Hillary being a disaster is wrong

Again

[djean111]

8. Looks like she would win the GOP primaries in a heartbeat!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. How did you make that inference?/NT

[VanillaRhapsody]

15. its just the sour grapes talking!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Or hard drugs?/NT

[VanillaRhapsody]

43. AND or!

[djean111]

76. Are you actually accusing me of being on drugs? New low for you people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. It's just a phrase but I apologize to you if anybody took it literally./NT

[djean111]

81. Oh, I don't want an apology - this is just a sterling example of why I feel

alienated from Hillary and her supporters. Y'all have done more to make me believe the the Democratic Party is not a club I want to belong to - nassty little bunch of vipers. Oh, that's just a phrase.....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. You implied that Hillary is a Repug because she's beating a bunch of Repugs...

You implied that Hillary is a Repug because she's beating a bunch of Repugs and by extension those that support her are Repugs...

You're obviously a smart man or woman. Don't you see how that is bound to rustle some feathers?

[djean111]

91. A personal attack, accusing me of being on drugs, and then that

doubled down on by another supporter, is more like what I would expect at the Discussionist.
Low class and tacky. Your personal attacks do more to drive off votes than you are capable of imagining. Makes me wonder who you work for.

Done with conversation, not descending to your level.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. Whatever

When posters start threads to elevate Democrats they like that I don't like or am ambivalent about I largely leave the threads alone as I don't want to be the guy that's invited to a party and pissed in the punch poll...You and a couple of other posters had no compunctions about doing that in this thread as is your right.

But you should expect some pushback...Liberals need more folks among their members who are willing to push back...

[wyldwolf]

75. Great quote from DUer 'The Magistrate.'

Paraphrased:

The Statement (DINO, 'real Democrats,' etc.) Is Nonsense on several Levels... the perennial brouha here about what constitutes a "real Democrat" is conducted along lines that bear very little relation with the actual states and history of the Democratic Party. The idea that figures like (Hillary Clinton) are not "real Democrats" is nothing but the punch-line to a very poor joke, although it is certainly true that they embrace many policies and ideas that some of our radicals detest. But that latter is hardly an indication they (are) not "real Democrats"; rather, it is an indication that such radicals are somewhat out of step with the Democratic Party as a real institution and political force, as opposed to an ideal item they imagine not only to be fact, but to be wholly agreeable to them. The faction of the Democratic Party ('progressives') had its political trial with the campaign for President of Sec. Wallace in 1948, and failed utterly, gaining the votes of only a handful of people. What is repudiated at the polls by the overwhelming preponderance of Democratic voters cannot be the real face of the Democratic Party. It really is that simple.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

80. What positions have Bill or Hill ever held that would make him, her, or both apostates?/NT

[wyldwolf]

100. None I'm aware of

[Kingofalldems]

20. I don't care who the Democratic nominee is--

I am supporting him/her.

The GOP is now as far right as the John Birch Society in the 50's and 60's. Google them and then tell us you won't vote for Hillary. This Hillary hating is insanity IMO.

[LittleBlue]

31. That's nothing for Hillary. She once blew a 33 point lead on Obama

For the first time, Clinton (N.Y.) is drawing support from a majority of Democrats -- and has opened up a lead of 33 percentage points over Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.). Her popularity, the poll suggests, is being driven by her strength on key issues and a growing perception among voters that she would best represent change.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/02/AR2007100202365.html

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. Any port looks good in a storm./NT

[VanillaRhapsody]

45. still not enough....she is ahead by 50!

good luck with your grasping at straws!

[brooklynite]

98. Are you of the opinion that Sanders has the political skills and resources of Obama?

I'd seriously love to have an explanation of your thinking.

[Tarheel_Dem]

152. "Are you of the opinion that Sanders has the political skills and resources of Obama?"

Excellent question, and I'd love to hear an "honest" answer from the poster.

[Tarheel_Dem]

144. Fortunately for HRC, there are no Barack Obama(s) waiting in the wings. BHO made his mark in '04...

with the party (and the country). Coming out of that convention, everyone knew BHO would be president someday, we just didn't think it would happen so soon. No potential challenger to HRC has done that, and that includes EW.

The weird thing is, the country tends to agree with more progressive policies, until you put an actual face on it. Liberals don't fare well nationwide. It's why, despite appealing to base groups in the primary, everyone tries to angle back to the center for the general.

[jwirr]

34. Are there any polls showing how the other progressive candidates shape up against the Rs?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. There is a pretty big electability difference on the Democratic side though.

There is a pretty big electability difference on the Democratic side though. In the off chance that Clinton were not to run for President, both Joe Biden (45/39) and Elizabeth Warren (43/41) would trail Jeb Bush in hypothetical contests. We've pretty consistently found Clinton running about 10 points better against the Republican field than potential Democratic alternatives.

[cascadiance]

82. Name recognition really messes with the polls now though...

I'd bet if you took a similar poll measuring Obama against some Republican challengers when he was 20 point behind Hillary in the polls about this time in the campaign in 2008, you'd find a similar result versus Republicans then.

Just because Hillary is "more ahead" now, doesn't mean another Democratic challenger can't even be further ahead of the Republican after the nomination process firms up. The corporate media wants us to believe that Hillary is the only option, when the nomination race hasn't even had a chance to start yet.

I think Biden is more in a handicap by these polls than other challengers that America really hasn't had a chance to see in executive office yet. I would be concerned about Biden as nominee for his age, his position on bankruptcy bills as a senator, and that he doesn't have perhaps the draw of someone like Elizabeth Warren might for women voters.

I think once more Americans are aware of someone like Warren hitting hard on issues that the 99% care about, and the 1% DOESN'T want us to care about (thinks like Wall Street reform, etc.). Many Republicans and independents are just as concerned about the cozy relationship that banksters have with politicians (whether they be the Obama administration or other pols) that we do on the progressive side of the party. Someone like Warren, who's emphasized those issues over more divisive social issues, I think would draw a lot more from the middle than many realize, or would like her to be characterized as.

[VanillaRhapsody]

46. You can read all about it here...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. HRC is killing it in the TX primary because she's hugely popular with Latinos.

[Robbins]

90. Hopefully

This means latinos in texas start coming out to vote then.

Hillary is going to do very well with latinos nationwide.She supports immigration and rights for them while republicans eather want to deport them or have them as low paid workers without education and health care.

[Robbins]

47. yeah

Warren would be in dead heat with jeb.He gets 43% vs her 41% Bernie wasn't tested.

Bernie actully has more support than Webb or o'malley for nomination.Elizabeth is running at 12%.I think with her not running some of that goes to him.Biden is running at 16% in primary.Some of that could also go to him.

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. so in other words....

Hillary is still the best bet

[closeupready]

79. Except for one thing: she lost the race which was "her race to lose" in 2008.

AND she helped every Democratic candidate lose, for whom she stumped last year. !!

[VanillaRhapsody]

83. No exception...she didn't lose by 50 points!

and that was before she was Sec. of State...

[hrmjustin]

89. Are you saying they lost because of her last year?

[closeupready]

49. Why did every single candidate, for whom she stumped last year, FAIL?

[hrmjustin]

56. Same reason the ones Warren stumped for failed.

They ran against the president and the party and low turnout.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. Because there has been a red tide in the past two mid-terms and popularity isn't transferable./NT

[Capt. Obvious]

59. Even better

On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton continues to gain support and build on her lead. She led her nearest competitor by 23 points last month -- 46 percent to 23 percent. She now leads the field by 30 points -- 51 percent to 21 percent.

....

Expectations are building fast. Nearly two-thirds, or 64 percent, of those polled expect Clinton to be the Democratic nominee.

CNN

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. Except she leads the field by fifty points now.Too bad...Too sad.../NT

[Maedhros]

86. I agree! She's the best Republican in the field! [n/t]

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. Is that why she's leading her Democratic challenger by fifty percent?

Why do you hold your fellow Democrats in such low esteem?

[Capt. Obvious]

88. Too bad.. Too sad

[DemocratSinceBirth]

92. For you, I agree...You should read Elisabeth Kubler Ross' five stages of grief.

You appear to be in the denial stage. There are four more stages to work through...DSB loves everybody so I'll be here for you.

[Capt. Obvious]

93. Clinton LOL

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. Captain Oblivious, LOL

[Capt. Obvious]

96. Clinton LOL

[DemocratSinceBirth]

97. I troll you with love, Captain Oblivious

#lol@Captain Oblivious

[Maedhros]

101. Not all Democrats -

just the ones that condone torture, support illegal wars and craft harmful trade agreements.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

104. Don't light a match next to your straw men./NT

[Maedhros]

110. Did she not vote for the IWR, and push for the bombing of Libya?

Did she not help craft the TPP?

Has she denounced those responsible for torture and called for their prosecution?

As far as I can tell the answers are "Yes", "Yes" and "No". Not a strawman.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

111. Joe Biden and John Kerry voted for the IWR ...

Joe Biden and John Kerry voted for the IWR and Barack Obama made them one and four heartbeats from the presidency.

It's the pres who is agitating for TPP...

As to Libya the SOS doesn't go to the bathroom without the president's permission.

Your beef is with the party and you are using Hillary Clinton as a surrogate for your beef.

[Maedhros]

112. To the extent that the Party supports illegal wars, pushes for bullshit trade agreements

and refuses to take action for war crimes, yes - I have a beef with the Party.

Given that Hillary is an enthusiastic participant in all of that activity, I also do not want her anywhere near the White House.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

113. That's fair I guess but I would argue she is right in the center of Democratic thought.

The next president is either going to be a Democrat or a Republican and I will support that Democrat that offers the greatest possibility that the next president is a Democrat.

[Maedhros]

120. She's to the right of Obama, who is waaaaaayyyy to Right for me. [n/t]

[DemocratSinceBirth]

124. Hillary Clinton and Elizabeth Warren are both on the same square of the political compass, ergo:

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/hillary-clinton-and-elizabeth-warren-are-both-on-the-same-square-of-the-political-compass-do-you-ag/question-4558643/


And there's this:

[Maedhros]

126. Thank you for proving my point.

"But the entire Democratic Party are Authoritarian Rightists" doesn't really solve my problems with them.

I will vote for candidates who are not Authoritarian Rightists.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

128. As i said I'm in the bottom left quadrant with the Dalai Lama and Mandela

But if i have to choose SPAM or starvation I'm choosing the former.

[Maedhros]

156. If we concede our convictions and vote for Authoritarian Rightists,

we will get an Authoritarian Right government.

I just can't do that anymore. I sincerely hope the Democratic Party fields a Libertarian Left candidate. Sanders would fit the bill.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

157. I applaud your idealism.

No snarky comment.

[Maedhros]

161. There is a practical component to my stance as well.

As long as we in the bottom left quadrant continue to give our votes to candidates in the upper right quadrant, those candidates (and the Party in general) will (correctly) interpret that action as supporting their Right-leaning agenda. The effect is to encourage Democratic politicians to drift even farther Right, because that is the path of least resistance with regard to campaign funding and, hence, election/re-election.

The only way to stop this rightward drift is to stop rewarding it with our votes.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

166. Here are some interesting graphs

IMHO, third parties be they left or right, invariably hurt the parties closest to them, even if they seem far away.


These graphs deal with parties of the left:


http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~wright/621%20&%20929%20-%202014/OUTLINE-week-10-2014.pdf

[Maedhros]

167. I understand.

The argument used is:

2.5 Logic of Third Dilemma: strengthen capitalism & win next election vs pursue socialism & lose next election

My point is that we have been operating under this model for at least 40 years, and we have seen ever-increasing divergence away from social-democratic policies. This model hasn't worked in the past, so why should we continue to expect that it will somehow deliver positive results this time?

ON EDIT: I'm also not arguing for "Socialism." I'm arguing for traditional Liberal Capitalism as formerly practiced by Democrats. It's not accurate to portray having expectations of Liberal policies with expectation of a transition to Socialism. I am a Socialist, but in the context of the Democratic Party I realize that they are not.

[GeorgeGist]

134. Sick country.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

138. There are other charts and most of the leaders in Western Europe were pretty much in the same place.

[Savannahmann]

99. Well shit.

I was worried about issues, and here I didn't realize that Hillary being wrong on so many issues wouldn't hurt us after all.

I'm absolutely certain that the Unions will turn out in record numbers to support a Free Trade Democrat. Everyone knows that Unions really care about the two issues that Hillary has that are different than Republicans on. Gay Marriage, and a Woman's choice.

http://www.aflcio.org/Blog/Political-Action-Legislation/Poll-Shows-Voters-Will-Hold-Lawmakers-Accountable-for-Fast-Track-Support

I'm just as certain that the people who think that Civil Rights like the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments that were eviscerated by the PATRIOT ACT matter will utterly ignore this particular issue for the sake of defending a Woman's right to choose, oh, and Gay Marriage.

We might even get some of the RW to vote for her depending on which Republican they nominate. She's way more in favor of war than some of the Republicans are. Hillary wanted to bomb Syria.

So yes, you've convinced me with a poll before a single debate has been held in the Nomination, or a single interview about issues was conducted. Now, if we don't nominate Hillary, I'm not voting!

We want free trade. What are the Unions going to do, leave us? Oh, those peace loving folks, who are they going to vote for if not Hillary? Like the people who care about Civil Rights will go vote for a Republican, get serious.

Oh wait. They did, in 2014. Black leaders came out and called on people to vote against Democrats. http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/09/17/african-american-politicians-form-fannie-lou-hamer-coalition-cite-disrespect-from-democratic-party/

Well, I'm sure they won't do that again. I'm just as certain that they won't stay home and ignore the election. It's not like the War on Women ever failed to motivate people into voting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/opinion/the-worst-voter-turnout-in-72-years.html?_r=0

So we can't get them on the issues, because for some reason, Gay Marriage and of course the War On Women didn't do it in 2014. But this time it will be different. I can feel it. We're going to break the mold and win, somehow, the polls or something will get us across the line into a huge victory. Hillary has some magic, and she's going to need it to win the election. I'm talking Fairy Godmother pumpkin into a carriage level of Magic. I'm talking full Hogwarts student body working overtime levels of magic.

Because where issues come in, Hillary is a giant stone chained to an anchor, and set in cement before being tossed overboard just as the boat is passing over the Challenger Deep portion of the Marianas Trench.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

103. Your beef is with the Democratic party, ergo

She's right in step with her party though I am blown away by how far right the Democratic party is on that graph.


I will add two things...

1) Don't blame me. When I take the political compass test I fall in the same quadrant , bottom left, as the Dalai Lama and Gandhi
2) Using marriage equality as nothing more than a rhetorical device screams heterosexual privilege.

[Savannahmann]

193. Baloney

You and the others who keep going straight off of the polls are the ones to blame. Especially when we are so early in the campaign that nobody has announced yet. It would be one thing to settle for this is the best we can do after we take a look at choices and listen to the speeches and the debates. It would be one thing to say this is the best we can hope for after the process has run it's course.

It's another thing to ignore the process and just run with the idea that this is the best we can do before we do anything. So yes, when we lose in November 2016, I am going to blame all of those Hillary is our only choice cheerleaders here, and in the media. I'm going to blame you because you all have given up on issues before we began. We haven't even gotten to the starting line yet and according to you and others just like you the race is over. The rabbit is going to win, so don't even bother having the race.

The Republicans are going to win the 2016 election. The same way they won in 2014. I called it then, and it was worse than even I thought it would be. I was operating under the assumption that it would be 52 seats in the senate worst case. It was worse than even I thought.

Because i look at the polls, but I look at them to see how the Public feels about issues. When the candidates are uninspiring, and Hillary is, the issues are the next thing people look at. So when we get to issues, Hillary is pretty much exactly like the Republicans, with the exception of War on women, which worked out so well for us in 2014, and Gay Marriage. So we know those issues alone don't decide the elections in our favor. Yet, it's all we have to grasp on to. It's all we have this early in the process. We've already settled for that.

So yes, I'm going to blame you. I've already started bookmarking threads just like this one. So that way I can come back after the election and ask how those polls look now. Because when we lose because the Hillary media machine chased out any alternative candidate before the first debate, it won't be her fault. It will be the fault of those who carried the water.

But on the off chance I'm wrong, and we win in November 2016, we'll still lose. We'll still have a free trade RW corporatist in the White House signing off on anything the Republican Congress feels like passing. The only thing that she won't sign off on is Woman's Choice, and Gay Marriage. So we'll have those two issues to keep us warm at night. The best we'll be able to hope for is a moderate to replace Ginsberg on the Supreme Court. We can cheer that we got a moderate and how awesome that is later I suppose.

So yes, I do blame you, and I will be blaming you. Because you and all the other folks carrying the water are the ones to blame.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

200. I can't match you word for word, that would be impossible...

I can't match you word for word, that would be impossible , so we will use the Socratic Method to elicit the truth.

Question #1

On what issues is Hillary Rodham Clinton outside of the main stream of the Democratic party?

[Savannahmann]

201. That's not the Socratic method, and it's not even a good analogy.

The Socratic Method is to reduce things to their most basic truths. A better use of the method would be thus.

What is the purpose of a Primary?

The answer is that the purpose of a primary is to allow supporters to examine, and select the best candidate. Your criteria for selection may differ from others. But your support is based upon beliefs, your weight your beliefs based upon your own values.

You've said. Don't blame me. When I take the political compass test I fall in the same quadrant , bottom left, as the Dalai Lama and Gandhi So obviously you would examine the candidates if you believe your values, your ideals are right, and moral and select someone that represents your values most closely. Instead, you have diminished your ideals and instead used an old political compass to determine who you should support.

John Edwards is on there, he was a candidate, but not since 2008. Realistically his political career ended in 2004 when he was the Vice Presidential nominee.

But let's use analogy to discuss the situation. Let's say you are looking for a new car. You announce that you're starting with an open mind, and you're going to buy the best car available for the money. You set a price maximum that you will not go above. Then you announce the competition over since you're going to buy the Ford Fusion since it's the best car available. People point out that there are cars with better safety records. You insist that the Fusion is the best car. Your reason, it's American Made. People point out that it is manufactured in Mexico, and is constructed using nearly 80% foreign made parts, which pretty much rules out Fusion as American Made. People point to Volkswagen as having better mileage, Toyota for better reliability. Nissan and Subaru for durability.

Finally you admit you want the car only because everyone else seems to like it. If that is your criteria for selecting a car, it's what a greater number of people think, then by all means. Get yourself a fusion. But don't pretend that you are buying a car based upon logical well considered reasoning. You're not. You've selected a car for the most basic and craven of reasons, because more people buy that car.

Oh, how do I buy a car? I decide on a car type that meets my needs. In the last case, a mini van to carry a handicapped family member around. The height of the seat made it easier for them to get in than a sedan which was lower, or a truck which was higher. The ability to carry support equipment if needed in the future in the large storage area was a plus as well. Then I examined the various models, looking at fuel economy, value for money, reliability, safety, and general driving quality. After eliminating several possible I was down to Toyota, and Ford. I test drove the Ford, and the Toyota. I examined them from every angle I could imagine, and in the end selected and purchased the Toyota.

Now, is my way superior? It is for me. I gave all the candidates consideration. I selected the best available that best represented my needs. I wasn't basing my selection on the opinions of majorities. Expert and customer reviews were a part of the consideration, as was ratings from Consumer Reports. However, in the end I made the decision based upon my own criteria and my own needs.

You've told me that you are selecting Hillary before anyone has announced, including Hillary, and before any process has begun to identify other possibilities, not because she represents your own views, or your own ideals, or your own passions. But because she represents the views of the bulk of the Democratic Party pretty much the same as any other candidate. Pretty much the same as any Republican candidate too, from 2008.

If you want to like the Ford Fusion because more people like it. That's fine. It's your right. But you should admit you're the kind of person who does things because others might like you if you choose what they do. You subjugate your own ideals, likes, and beliefs to the whims of others. You don't have core beliefs, you have core things you wish other people believed so you could believe them too.

I'll give you credit though. You've admitted what I suspected has been going on for a long time. That most of the Hillary supporters online are hoping to be able to say they were onboard for X amount of time, they support her because they think she's going to be popular one day. Like buying the Holiday Barbie thinking it will be worth money in twenty years. You don't like it, but you figure someone will eventually. However since everyone is buying it for the same reason, it will never be worth nearly as much as you think, because one of the factors of value is how rare the item is. 90% of the dolls are wrapped in plastic and set in humidity controlled storage. They'll never be rare.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

202. So we are in agreement that Hillary Clinton is in the main stream of the Democratic party?

William Buckley used to say he voted for the most electable and most conservative candidate running. I use that formula as well except I vote for the most liberal and electable candidate running.

It's actually a vastly different process than choosing a car. My choosing a car is largely a self directed act. It mostly affects me. My vote affects others and I if I withhold or use it unwisely it not only affects my fellow citizens but citizens of other nations as well...

[Savannahmann]

203. Your process has already fallen down.

Nobody is running yet. So you can't vote for the most electable candidate running, they aren't.

Here is my technique. I wait until we have candidates. Then I make my selection based upon their stated beliefs and goals. Then if that candidate falls out of the race, I select another, and another until there is only one left. Then I vote for that candidate in the General Election. I may settle in the final vote, but I don't start out to settle.

[Tarheel_Dem]

102. K&R! Expect to be trolled BIG TIME!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. Sticks and stones may break my bones but insults from random internet posters will never harm me./NT

[Tarheel_Dem]

141. +1

[DemocratSinceBirth]

142. Let's hope those polls hold until 10/8/16./NT

[Tarheel_Dem]

146. There are those for whom polls that they don't like tend to be dismissed as "wrong sample size";

or some other equally inane cause not to believe in science. Yet they don't mind presenting "push polls" as proof that Hillary's "in trouble".

[Cosmic Kitten]

105. At least according to 691 people

PPP surveyed 691 registered voters,
including 310 Democratic primary voters, from February 20th to 22nd.
The margin of error for the overall survey is +/- 3.7%,
and for the Democratic primary component it’s +/-5.6%.
This survey was conducted through automated telephone interviews
and interviews over the internet to voters who don’t have landline phone

Impressive numbers

[DemocratSinceBirth]

109. Those polls are confirmed by other polls, ergo

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/2016_presidential_race.html



So they are impressive numbers



#DSB working in this thread

[hrmjustin]

114. All othe reputable polls show the same results.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

119. Why does a Democrat leading her Republican(t) challengers make some Democrats so upset?/NT

[hrmjustin]

121. Because it puts her in a strong position and some here can not stand it.

They should move on.

[Capt. Obvious]

123. It's just the MRA brigade

[hrmjustin]

125. MRA?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

127. I googled MRA and this came up

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=MRA

[hrmjustin]

132. Basically Male dominance garbage.

Thanks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

136. I'm a a guy but it will be nice to shatter another barrier like we did with President Obama.

I really don't get the animus for her on this board. Her politics aren't really different than any national Democrat. Maybe because she usually eschews red hot rhetoric.

[hrmjustin]

139. Been trying to figure out the hatred myself.

Being against stuff she voted for or her actions is very legit but the hatred is so sad.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

140. IMHO, DU is quixotic and loves an underdog.

That is not Hillary...i'm a bread and butter Democrat and my ideas are less ethereal.

[hrmjustin]

145. I consider myself a realist when it comes to politics.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

148. That's a realistic space to occupy./NT

[OilemFirchen]

147. Just think...

Somewhere out there is a General or Admiral Obvious.

Yowza.

[hrmjustin]

149. lol.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

151. BTW, He was being saracstic

The animus for HRC here isn't a function of misogyny but it is in other quarters.

The animus for HRC here is a function of the fact she's a mainstream Democrat and that's bound to rub people who believe they are part of an Underground the wrong way.

[OilemFirchen]

153. Okay.

Some people can do sarcasm.

Just thought it would be a good opportunity to point out the otherwise obvious.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

155. He is a very ornery fellow.

We should appeal to his lighter angels.

[blkmusclmachine]

131. GOP versus GOP lite.

Meh.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

133. And...?

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

Hillary appears to me to be more greedy for office than she is principled.

[sadoldgirl]

158. Well, if that poll should predict

the 2016 GE results, my congratulations to the HRC
supporters.

I live in a swing state, my district though is heavily democratic.
The Clinton v. Bush election seemed to be indicated for a long time.
When I asked several people around here who they would vote for,
the answer was: no one.

When I asked why the answer was very clear: The Party does not
listen to us anyway, so why should we listen to it?!
That hurt, but was not unexpected. Therefore I am so glad
to read here that a lot of Repugs will vote for HRC, which means
the average disgusted Democrat will not be needed in 2016.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

160. No disrespect but I'm wary of anecdotal evidence.

Most of my peers as well as casual acquaintances are eager to vote for the Democratic nominee for president, regardless of whom he or she might be.

[sadoldgirl]

162. Good for you and your people

To me it just explained why my state turned
mostly red in 2014, which was sad to see.

You are probably right about anecdotal evidence;
however, grant me to see my own experience in
a little different light.

We shall see whether the public will be thrilled
about a Bush/Clinton election. I doubt it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

165. Again, in the spirit of harmony

Human beings also fall into the "confirmation bias" trap. They look for information to confirm what they believe they already know.

[Tarheel_Dem]

164. Cute anecdote, but here's something scientific to chew on. Hope this doesn't blow up your theory.

Young Voters Plan to Vote in 2016 and most back HIllary Clinton

<Young Democrats across all demographics pick Clinton to be the party’s next nominee, according to the survey. More than half — 57 percent — of the Democrats surveyed prefer Clinton, compared with 10 percent who choose Vice President Joe Biden and another 10 percent who want Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren. At 19 percent, a large chunk are still undecided.

More than three-quarters millennials say they are at least “very likely” to vote in the 2016 presidential election, a level of enthusiasm that has the potential to dwarf previous turnouts from young people in past elections.

In all, 77 percent 18 to 34-year-olds are “absolutely certain” or “very likely” to vote in 2016, according to the survey. Another 14 percent said they will “possibly” vote, bringing the total up to 91 percent. Just 8 percent say they are not likely to vote, while 1 percent is undecided.>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026182275

[AtomicKitten]

168. She's not polling over 50% and that matters.

It's largely name recognition now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

169. She's polling at 47-49% with ten or eleven percent undecided.

What's more likely; she gains a very small percentage of the undecideds or the Republican gets nearly all of them ?

And you are right, it is name recognition and the fact Hillary starts so close to 50% suggests her numbers now are more of a floor than a ceiling. Forty percent of Americans would vote for Satan if he had a (R) after his name.

[AtomicKitten]

170. No, it's a ceiling for her just like it was in 2008.

That's the downside of being a known entity with huge name recognition. She's got nowhere to go but down and we'll see that when the field declares and assembles.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

172. How can it be harder to go from forty nine to fifty than forty to fifty?

BTW, which field?

[AtomicKitten]

173. Exactly. There is no field.

Which contributes to the specious results. Nate Silver explained the phenomenon in 2008.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

174. This Nate Silver?

Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Have A Problem On Her Left


http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/hillary-clinton-doesnt-have-a-problem-on-her-left/

[DemocratSinceBirth]

175. Or the Nate Silver who gives her a 75% chance of wresting the nomination

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/listen-to-our-totally-subjective-2016-presidential-odds/

[AtomicKitten]

176. Nate, the OP polling, and I were addressing the general election.

But you knew that didn't you?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

180. I know you believe Hillary is a maladroit politician.

But I am literally willing to bet a kidney you are wrong.

[Logical]

177. LOL, 26 recs! nt

[hrmjustin]

179. Laugh all you want, she will be our nominee.

[Logical]

181. Like when she had a 30 point lead in 2008 over Obama and lost the nomination? LOL! nt

[hrmjustin]

182. Who could beat her?

[Logical]

183. We will see. She had trouble raising money in 2008 also. Not a good sign. She does.......

not have deep support. Just name recognition.

People won't work for her or donate to her in huge amounts like for Obama.

She comes off aloof.

She just paid of her 2008 debt in 2013!!!! So much for those big donors.

But she did pull herself out of poverty after leaving the White House, so she has got that going for her!!!

[hrmjustin]

184. Lol no deep support!

[Logical]

186. True, people know her, but you wait and see the money and volunteers she gets.....

get ready for disappointment.

Lets run a real liberal!

[Logical]

187. I also love the no comment on losing a 30 point lead to Obama! LOL!! nt

[hrmjustin]

188. Oh she lost and there is no denying that but 2016 is not 2008.

She will have to prove herself but she has my vote.

[WillyT]

185. weeeeeee...

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