I'll admit I'm slightly conflicted over this American Sniper trial verdict.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

Honestly, I hate that I could be perceived as a "blame the victim" type of guy at any time.

But on the other hand, I just can't help but think how stupid Kyle was in contributing to his own death. He knew that a fellow veteran was suffering from PTSD (or if not PTSD, some other serious mental issues), and his notion of helping him cope with it was to take him target shooting. Target shooting.

I mean, did taking the guy fishing or to a ballgame ever cross his mind instead? I just don't get it.

Plus the fact that the guy was charged with capital murder so there'll be no mitigation of his sentence. He'll spend the rest of his life in prison. It's Texas, so he's lucky they didn't want to execute him. Still, the guy clearly had some mental issues that contributed to his actions but there'll be no mitigation of the sentence, all for a situation where he should have never been placed in the first plae.

And the timing of the trial sucked for the guy. Right after the American Sniper movie was released.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the guy should have walked free, but I just think there's a greater tragedy at hand and that the victim's complete cluelessness to the situation played a role.

Instead, he'll spend the rest of his life in prison. Another stain to the reputation of Chris Kyle in my book.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

1. PTSD... from combat? n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

2. Apparently.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/eddie-ray-routh-ptsd-suspect-chris-kyle-murder_n_2621764.html

He served in Iraq from 2007-2008.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

5. he was a FOBit... never saw a minute of combat. n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

8. He also was involved in Haitian earthquake recovery efforts.

Which was reportedly a horrific task.

PTSD or something else, I just can't help but shake my head that it was Kyle's idea to take him to a shooting range to work through his problems. Like Skinner said, it probably didn't register in Kyle's mind, but caution should be played out in future circumstances.

[riderinthestorm]

9. The defense said Routh is a paranoid schizophrenic with psychotic episodes

i don't think he did combat but he was in a "hot zone" with a lot of mortar activity which can be pretty stressful Imho.

[Hoyt]

3. I agree. I think the last thing a vet with PTSD needs is to play army at a shooting range.

Sounds like Kyle dragged the poor guy to the range. I have to believe that contributed significantly to the tragedy.

[riderinthestorm]

4. I agree with all of this. The guy clearly had mental issues.

I actually kept thinking here's another mentally ill person who will never get the treatment he needs in prison.

I felt sadness at the verdict. He needs treatment (and incarceration).

And Chris Kyle does indeed have another black stain on his record as well.

[Skinner]

6. It does sound a bit like a blame the victim type of thing.

Yes, if you know someone is mentally ill it probably isn't a good idea to hand that person a gun. But (speaking as a person who does not have any familiarity with guns or gun culture) I imagine that in the mind of someone who is familiar with guns and gun culture (like Chris Kyle) taking someone to a shooting range is more-or-less like taking someone bowling. It's a recreational activity. This isn't the same thing as handing a gun to a visibly mentally ill person you meet at random on the street.

I think that the fact that Chris Kyle was trying to help a fellow veteran with PTSD casts Kyle in a very favorable light. It is not a stain on his reputation.

[brendan120678]

13. Excellent point, Skinner.

Some people like to go to the batting cage, some people like to go to the firing range.

[riderinthestorm]

15. Routh is a paranoid schizophrenic with psychotic episodes.

Im not trying to "blame the victim" but there's no way Routh should have EVER been near a weapon. Even if you grew up in gun culture, I can't believe it's ever okay to give a mentally disturbed person a loaded weapon. Gunners can correct me but I'm thinking that would be a no no.

Now this mentally ill guy will go to prison without getting the medical care he needs, forever.

[redgreenandblue]

21. There are plenty of stains on Chris Kyle's reputation.

That he was helping a fellow veteran doesn't add to them. It doesn't substantially remove any either. Chris Kyle bought into the ideas of nationalism and racism. That camaraderie exists amongst groups doesn't excuse the dehumanizing of "the other".

[Enrique]

7. good points

I don't know anything about the trial, but his defense would have been able to make those points at the trial, I wonder if they did.

[HappyMe]

10. It seems to me that none of the guys involved here

were operating with 100% of their mental health intact. I don't think that guys like these are going to sit around playing Monopoly or Scrabble to help with their issues. I'm just not down with blaming Kyle for his own death. I have no idea what it's like to serve in the military, let alone serve during a war. Even if you are driving a supply truck, I am going to figure it's scary to say the least.

[LanternWaste]

11. I imagine it comes down to whether Routh enjoyed fishing or ballgames

"did taking the guy fishing or to a ballgame ever cross his mind instead? I just don't get it..."

I imagine it comes down to whether Routh enjoyed fishing or ballgames and if Kyle knew that or not. Many people calm down doing things they enjoy-- things that in other people, could easily cause stress or panic.

[HughBeaumont]

12. It's one-size-fits-all therapy, a shortcut to thinking.

Typical online defense of Kyle's actions pretty much revolves around anecdotal evidence. Common example would be "PTSD is no excuse! I'm perfectly at home on a gun range, I saw babies being butchered and had to pick up my friend's remains with sandwich bags and I didn't think about shooting anyone!!" Again, it's playing amateur behavior specialist to think that what's right for one person will work for another . . . especially a person who has been in and out of mental hospitals and diagnosed as a schizophrenic.

Chad Littlefield, during this excursion, texted Chris Kyle to "Watch his six, this guy's fucking nuts". AGAIN, if red flags are going off and the supposed trust that veterans have with each other is obviously not there, WHY were they STILL at the gun range?

[sunnystarr]

18. Confused ...

Chad Littlefield, during this excursion, texted Chris Kyle to "Watch his six, this guy's fucking nuts".

So did Littlefield text Kyle to watch HIS ... like in "watch [your] six, this guy's fucking nuts." or did he text Kyle to watch Routh's ... like in "Watch [his] six, this guy's fuckin nuts."

It seems logical that he texted Kyle to watch his back not to watch Routh's back but I could easily be wrong since it's stated that way in your quote.

You're so right. Red flags screaming and they both didn't watch their 6. Unbelievable and so like men. No woman would have stayed even if a red flag was playing peek-a-boo (of course no woman would have gone to gun range with a PTSD veteran who had to be also showing signs of schizophrenia/paranoia).

I believe Routh is insane and should be in a psychiatric facility.

[HughBeaumont]

19. Sorry, bad wording -

Littlefield texted TO Chris Kyle to "watch his six", meaning for Chris to look out for Chad. "This Guy" referred to Eddie Ray.

[gwheezie]

14. Do not try this at home

I read several sources that said the court removed routes Fire arms. On Virginia if you are committed which routh was you can no longer own a firearm I don't know what it is in Texas. But I've worked with ptsd patients. I'm very familiar with treatment for ptsd and paranoid schizophrenia. Having non professionals bringing someone to a situation that may trigger a psychotic episode is dangerous.
I wonder if Kyle knew how sick this man was. His use of drugs and alcohol to self medicate didn't help. Very sad for everyone.
I once had a patient with ptsd who never left the country. She used to record the bodies returning from the wars. She didn't see the bodies but had to keep some kind of record. She had PTSD.

[nichomachus]

16. "Blame the victim" is a lazy and sloppy way of characterizing things

We use it all the time, and it clouds a rational discussion of any issue. When we say a person has some responsibility for something that happens to them, it's not necessarily blame. Blame implies that the person did something wrong. Saying the person is partly responsible is only to say that they somehow played a role -- which may have included stupid or poorly thought out actions -- and had they not done that, the result may not have occurred.

Example. I go to the local sleazy biker bar (why, I don't know). After a few beers, I go to the men's room, leaving my wallet on the bar. When I come back, my wallet (surprise) is gone.

Did I do something stupid -- yes. Did I do something that was poorly thought out -- yes. Did I contribute to the loss of my wallet -- yes. Did I do something wrong? Technically no. There is nothing to say I'm morally required to take my wallet with me. Who is to blame? The person who took my wallet. That is the person who did something wrong. But, it still remains that, had I taken my wallet with me, it would not have been stolen. So I bear some of the responsibility.

Responsibility is not blame, but we conflate the two and it ends up in confusing and sloppy arguments.

Saying it was not a good idea to take a mentally unstable person to a shooting range is not blaming the victim. However, the victim does bear some responsibility for what happened to him.

[cwydro]

17. The whole thing is heartbreaking.

The blame goes back to Bush imo...no reason these guys should have ever have been in Irag.

No good answer for this incident. I doubt he'll live out his life expectancy in prison.

Someone will want to kill him just for the notoriety.

[HughBeaumont]

20. And this, folks, is why the false narrative this movie promotes is irresponsible and reprehensible.

Linking 9/11 as the motivation/reasoning behind the Failure Fuhrer's wars of choice, that is.

Hours after 9/11 happened, the PNAC bunch were looking for any excuse to link it to Saddam/Iraq. They almost seemed disappointed when they could not find one.

That hardly stopped them from, two years later, getting their ginned-up wars and creating lots of deaths (and wealth for Cheney's MIC buds) and conveniently forgetting about Bin Laden.

This ginned-up occupation of choice is the reason this all-encompassing tragedy happened. It's why we made a national hero and martyr out of, by all accounts, a bloodthirsty hateful berzerker who seemed to think war was the best thing that ever happened to him.

Live by the Sword . . . . and all that . . .

[cwydro]

22. Yup. nt