Poll on Poverty 1

[Ken Burch]

One of a series of polls I'm starting on wealth and poverty issues on DU

This poll's question is:

"Do you believe that people who are more financially secure than the poor are entitled to morally judge poor people and to blame them personally for their situation?"

Corollary questions:

"If you yourself are not poor, to what degree do you believe that the poor are to blame for their own poverty and to what degree do you personally feel entitled to pass judgment on them? Do you believe you can be certain that, were you in their situation, you would not be faring just as badly as they are?"

10 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	I believe that the rich and the middle class are fully entitled to judge the poor.
	0 (0%)
	I believe such people are largely, but not fully entitled to judge the poor.
	0 (0%)
	I'm not sure whether such people are entitled to judge the poor or not.
	0 (0%)
	I believe such people are largely, but not fully NOT entitled to judge the poor.
	0 (0%)
	I believe such people aren't entitled to judge the poor at all.
	10 (100%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[marym625]

1. interesting

No, no one has the right to pass judgment on others like that.

That second question can't be answered regarding a group. But if I must, I will say I believe it's not their fault and I am not going to judge

[daredtowork]

5. Yet they do

because wealth influences political "representatives" and political representatives create policies that "judge" the poor every day.

[Newest Reality]

2. I am wondering

on what basis a judgment of the poor by wealthy would stand?

Is there some demonstrable harm that the poor literally do to the wealthy that should be judged, and is it voluntary?

By whose moral compass would the wealthy form their judgements and to what avail? Would their judgements be of any practical value to the poor in lieu of their ability to financially support means and methods to assist the poor and eradicate poverty? Would they not have to exonerate themselves from the idea that poverty is built into the capitalist system and actually contributes to their wealth, seeing how they are investing heavily in services to the poor and making a fortune on a growing sector of income?

Since they benefit from the labor of the poor, how can they place themselves in judgment of those trapped in poverty without first making sure that the companies they own, hold shares in and invest in are not paying a living wage?

Since the wealthy exist in their own Elysium and are so far removed from the stark and difficult reality of poverty, why would they think that their judgements of those who are in dire financial circumstances and impoverished neighborhoods and living conditions be anything but a form of delusional self-aggrandizement? How accurate could their judgements even be, in that case?

Since there is a shared responsibility in society to keep it functional and the wealthy benefit equally, (if not in a greater proportion) to the infrastructure that is provided to them by the social structure, it would be best for the wealthy to justify their impact and support of that complex system in a way that proves that they are not contributing to social decay, as well. I say that in relation not only to infrastructure, but in the light of gentrification and property ownership.

[Ken Burch]

3. Thanks for that thoughtful post. n/t.

[katsy]

4. My journey has taken me

thru all classes.

I didn't judge anyone but myself.

That's as far as any one person can judge IMO.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

6. "Judge poor people" is a pretty loaded term

The gut reaction of most DUers is to say "Good Lord no, you shouldn't judge the poor." In thinking this, a typical DUer would envision a comment like, "There's no excuse for being poor. Anyone can get out of poverty if they only apply themselves. My grandfather arrived in America with twelve cents in his pocket and built a plumbing supply empire....etc." I have nothing against people who rise from poverty -- actually, I have great admiration for them. However, most of the people who make those comments learned everything they know about politics at Amway meetings, and we don't see many of them here at DU.

However.....

Take a comment along these lines: "Many poor Americans hurt themselves and their families by using payday advance loans." Some DUers would look at that comment and say, "Yes, that's true. It's a fact that taking out payday loans, whcih charge loanshark interest legally, are a means by which the poor harm themselves." However, other DUers would look at that comment and say "Poor Americans take payday loans because they have no other options, and you have no right to judge their actions until you've walked a mile in their shoes." Is it "moral judgement" to say that the poor harm themselves by taking payday loans, or is it empirical analysis?

[Ken Burch]

9. It's a moral judgment to condemn people for doing something they have no alternative to doing.

Virtually all of those who take payday loans do so because the alternative is to see their kids go hungry.

These aren't people for whom "saving for a rainy day" is an option.

[el_bryanto]

10. Do you have data on the statement that virtually all who take payday loans

do so because they have to?

I do agree that many are in that position; but wasn't sure the number was quite that high.

Bryant

[Ken Burch]

12. We can clearly conclude that payday loans are driven solely by necessity

because people who are poor enough to need them can be assumed, simply due to the realities of their lives, to have no other access to credit and no possibility of accumulating savings(you can't create savings when every penny has to go to food, rent, and clothing for yourselves and your kids.

People who take payday loans are fully aware that they're subjecting themselves to usury-they simply have no other options. There's nothing else out there for them. Sorry to have to tell you this, but some things really are that simple.

[el_bryanto]

14. OK - so you don't actually have any data on it - you could have just said that. nt

[Ken Burch]

15. Nobody's keeping data on that. There's no data to post.

What I said in the last post was enough.

Nobody gets payday loans for frills or luxuries, for God's sakes.

You've got nothing here to be a stickler about.

[Tsiyu]

7. The rich today judging the poor today

is akin to a slasher cutting up a man's face, and then that same violent thug having the audacity to call the man he maimed "ugly."

[Ken Burch]

13. And then to complain that the poor bastard is messing up the sidewalk with his blood. n/t.

[Tsiyu]

16. And then throw him in jail because he can't pay the penalty fee for the bloody mess. nt

[Katashi_itto]

8. They are all lazy, let them eat cake.

[el_bryanto]

11. Like a lot of issues, I suspect your answer to this comes from your personal experience.

If you have a relative or friend (or yourself) who is poor or has been poor because they make a lot of bad choices, than you are probably less inclined to view the poor charitably. Inversely, if you know someone who is poor because of circumstances beyond their control, you are probably more inclined to view them charitably.

If you are insulated from the poor, than you probably just form your opinions on what their life is life by what you read in the news or see on the television, which isn't likely to encourage empathy.

Bryant

[MohRokTah]

17. I believe anybody is entitled to judge anybody on anything

That is freedom of thought.

The morality of that judgement then becomes in question and here I doubt whether anybody's judgement of anybody else holds any moral authority save those areas well defined by law such as in a court room.

[Glassunion]

20. Judgement is simply forming an opinion based on evidence.

More importantly regardless of one's financial situation, is to ask where they obtained their evidence.

If an opinion of the poor is based on anecdotal comments on poverty from Fox News, or from the mouth of someone struggling in poverty... The two opinions may vary greatly, regardless of their financial situation.

[Glassunion]

19. Depends on your definition of Judge.

If your definition of Judging: is the simple act of forming an opinion based on evidence. This is something we all do regardless. It is impossible to avoid.

If your definition of Judging: is to come to a conclusion, and from that to keep someone down, criticize, or reprimand. This is avoidable and circumstantial.

The latter would be better defined with the word: Rebuke.