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What did Marx mean when he said he "stood Hegel on his head" ? (Original Post) DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2015 OP
The Hegelian Dialectic is about thesis and antithesis, followed by synthesis Electric Monk Feb 2015 #1
I thought it had more to do with Marx discounting Hegel's "great man" theory... DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2015 #2
Yep. Hegel posited an endless thesis/antithesis/synthesis hifiguy Feb 2015 #4
It's hard to get folks to do stuff without incentivizing them. DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2015 #8
This assumes that you know your premises Laughing Coyote Feb 2022 #13
Welcome To The Forum, Sir The Magistrate Feb 2022 #14
Adding to the above reply...Marx used Hegel's dialectical method of explaining history YoungDemCA Feb 2015 #3
+ struggle4progress Feb 2015 #5
man's reality does not come from his consciousness, but his consciousness comes from his reality DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2015 #6
Well Done! Anansi1171 Feb 2015 #7
Makes sense but seems to distort the meaning of "consciousness" Cosmic Kitten Feb 2015 #9
Good summary. I can't improve on it. eom. rogerashton Feb 2015 #11
I'm pretty sure he meant this.... pkdu Feb 2015 #10
Can I get a coffee without cream or sugar? Electric Monk Feb 2015 #12
 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
1. The Hegelian Dialectic is about thesis and antithesis, followed by synthesis
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:17 PM
Feb 2015
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis

The triad thesis, antithesis, synthesis is often used to describe the thought of German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel. Hegel never used the term himself.

The triad is usually described in the following way:

The thesis is an intellectual proposition.
The antithesis is simply the negation of the thesis, a reaction to the proposition.
The synthesis solves the conflict between the thesis and antithesis by reconciling their common truths and forming a new thesis, starting the process over.


https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/help/easy.htm

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
2. I thought it had more to do with Marx discounting Hegel's "great man" theory...
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:21 PM
Feb 2015

I thought it had more to do with Marx discounting Hegel's "great man" theory and opining that the environment influences events and not "great men."

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
4. Yep. Hegel posited an endless thesis/antithesis/synthesis
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:29 PM
Feb 2015

process. Marx said he found the end of history and thus of the Hegelian process.

Couldn't agree more with the OP - Marx's description of the fall of capitalism was spot on but, like all other utopians, his prescriptions fail to account for human nature and 10,000 years of recorded human history.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
8. It's hard to get folks to do stuff without incentivizing them.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:44 PM
Feb 2015

Money is just one form of an incentive but folks need to be incentivized to do things.


I have seen the argument that folks are willing to help in disasters without no benefit to themselves and there are folks that are just altruistic but that's not nearly enough to organize a society around. That's where a nasty thing called force came in.

13. This assumes that you know your premises
Fri Feb 11, 2022, 04:16 PM
Feb 2022

Last edited Fri Feb 11, 2022, 04:51 PM - Edit history (1)

This involves a Cartesian dualism implied in the word dialectic, whose etymology means across or between things which are gathered or selected, and thus predicating on what is gathered or selected as significant. This implies exclusion of other possibilities in the things not gathered or selected.

A good example is of how this limitation has dogged Marxism is the manner that Hegelian categories of historical development are assumed not just to be valid as Hegel used them, which itself has been demonstrated by anthropology and historical investigation to be false, but are said to be determining human history universally. There is assumption among many Marxists, including a Nepali communist who recently sent me his paper, that all history everywhere necessarily follows a path of primitive communism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism, socialism and communism because their internal movement and contradictions require singular outcomes. But a growing body of ethnographic research and more extensive study of history show these fundamental premises as being incomplete or wrong, leading consequently to fallacious conclusions.

Marx, for example, described intellectuals as always serving in the interest of other classes and not having their own class interest. Thereby in revolutionary settings intellectuals describing themselves as serving in the interest of working class as its "vanguard" can erect highly centralized bureaucratic states that serve primarily their interests and more specifically those of its party chiefs, yet call them workers' states. The supposed bourgeois sociologist Max Weber, by not accepting this premise was able to establish in a series of articles in 1918, republished as the 2nd appendix to his Economy and Society, that the ruler of the modern state and its institutions, both state and civil, is the bureaucracy. Calling bureaucratic rule "hierarchic monocracy", he furthermore not only predicted that the emergent Soviet Union would tend towards bureaucratic totalitarianism as intellectuals established power in their role of vanguard of the proletariat but anticipated bad things happening in Germany. Similarly he predicted the dominant role of bureaucracy in all institutions of capitalist states as well, due to the growing complexity accompanying capitalism. Marx himself became aware of the danger of bureaucratic domination as the Leviathan of the bureaucratic imperial state consolidated its power throughout the second half of the 19th century, and thus well before the French revolution of 1870 he had given up the idea the proletariat taking over the state to bring socialism in the form of dictatorship of the proletariat. In 1871 he looked to the example of Parisian workers' councils as alternative. The intellectuals who successfully emerged as leaders following 20th century revolutions, however, subsequently still justified their use of bureaucratic domination in consolidating their power within the party and state in terms of the Marx's discarded dictatorship of the proletariat.

Marx himself was always aware of this incompleteness in our abstractions, and thus he continually investigated additional evidence that could revise his original premises. Although he always was optimistic that the working class could establish an equitable society no longer dependent upon a capitalist ruling class, he also was always looking for additional factors that mitigated this possibility and required him to revised his work. This is exemplified in his notebooks accumulated in his last decade in life in which he turned to early ethnology, which unlike Engels he by no means accepted uncritically, and early ecological and agricultural research, to discover alternative ways that humans had and could engage with the world and with each other.

In this way I feel that Marx was less a post-Hegelian than someone who anticipated ideas of the 20th century philosopher, Alfred North Whitehead, who discarded the dualism inherited from late Greek thought while keeping the processual core, which he saw as central to every event in the universe from the smallest to the largest, along with a sense of inter-connectedness of everything in the universe found in early Classical thought but which was discarded in by the later thought that came to dominate the Enlightenment and rise of science. At the time of his writing in the first half of the 20th century Whitehead also was aware that the newly discovered theory of relativity and quantum mechanics changed everything, even if most sciences and society continued to proceed as if these discoveries did not exist. Marx was such a person who would have similarly leaped to understand such new ways of conceiving the universe and their significance in revising his ideas, much in the way that he greeted the work of Darwin. Whitehead's word was not dialectic, but "conscrescence," the coming together, the simultaneous making of subjectivity and objectivity of all things, represented in the events in the ongoing creation of the universe.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
3. Adding to the above reply...Marx used Hegel's dialectical method of explaining history
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:25 PM
Feb 2015

Where they differed was that Hegel thought that historical processes and movements were embodied in the world of ideas, while Marx maintained that historical processes and movements was embodied in the material world-hence, Hegelian "idealism" vs Marxist "materialism."

There's a quote from Marx that says (paraphrased) that, "man's reality does not come from his consciousness, but his consciousness comes from his reality." That "reality" was the material reality of economic and social relations. From there, Marx theorized his conception of class struggle as a historical phenomenon. Basically, Marx used the same method of analysis as Hegel, but he came to the opposite conclusion from Hegel about the relationship between ideas and material conditions. For Hegel, changes in ideology (ideas) were responsible for changes in the material world. For Marx, changes in the material world (economics and power relations) were responsible for changes in ideology (Hence, Marx's famous quote: "The ruling ideas of any epoch are the ideas of its ruling class." )

That's my relatively crude understanding of the differences, anyway... Hope that made some sense?

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
6. man's reality does not come from his consciousness, but his consciousness comes from his reality
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:32 PM
Feb 2015

That makes sense because how you think is largely determined by where you are or as Marx would say where you are in relationship to the means of production than vice versa. I suspect if i was in the brush somewhere i would see the world much differently.

Cosmic Kitten

(3,498 posts)
9. Makes sense but seems to distort the meaning of "consciousness"
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:52 PM
Feb 2015

In the excerpt you presented Marx seems to be repeating Hegel.
Marx just comes off as more militant about how the "ideas" change.

Understanding what Hegel intended by the idea
of "consciousness" is central to comprehension.

Our concept of "reality" or consciousness are not
necessarily what Hegel intended.
Translations alone can account for misunderstanding.

Hegel's The Phenomenology of Spirit aka
The Phenomenology of Mind illuminates
his meaning of the terms vs contemporary interpretation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phenomenology_of_Spirit

The Master Slave Dialectic really focuses on the idea
of consciousness as it relates to "self-consciousness"
and the nature of "The ruling ideas"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_dialectic

 

Electric Monk

(13,869 posts)
12. Can I get a coffee without cream or sugar?
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:36 PM
Feb 2015

Sorry, but we have run out of cream. We only have milk. Can I bring you a coffee without milk and sugar?

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