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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJapan and their messed up power plants
There were fifty nuclear power plants being used just 4 years ago. Today, none are producing any electricity, yet somehow Japan is still cranking out Toyotas.
The 4 plants we all are familiar with, in Fukushima, are a smoldering mess after the earthquake ruptured the mechanics of the reactors making it so the nuclear reactions could not be cooled down and all four either melted down, exploded or burned. Not even the Japaneses are quite sure just what happened.
Almost 4 years into this mess, the scientists just now think they have designed a robot that can go in the melted reactors and see what condition the reactor vessels are like. See, the radiation inside is so damaging that previous robots wasted away and it is a no-man's land down there with open nuclear cores throwing off their elements.
In the mean time they have kept the cores from further explosions by flooding the cores with water. But that water just runs off into the nearby ocean , which means the ocean is being polluted like never before.
We don't know what that will do, but science has found traces of the radiation offshore of California to Canada, so we are about to find out.
There are some theories that radiation will kill sea creatures, and those theories are backed up by pure science, but nothing on this scale has ever happened before so we'll just have to wait and see, eh?
Good Luck, everyone.
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Omaha Steve
(99,678 posts)K&R!
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Why am I not surprised.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) said it is installing a muon detection system at the unit. The system comprises two measuring devices. The first was installed on the north side of the reactor building yesterday, while the second was scheduled to be put in place on the west side of the building today. Once the system is installed, it will be ready for testing, the company said.
Muons are high-energy subatomic particles that are created when cosmic rays enter Earth's upper atmosphere. These particles naturally and harmlessly strike the Earth's surface at a rate of some 10,000 muons per square meter per minute. Muon tracking devices detect and track these particles as they pass through objects. Subtle changes in the trajectory of the muons as they penetrate materials and change in direction correlate with material density. Nuclear materials such as uranium and plutonium are very dense and are therefore relatively easy to identify.
The 3-D image produced by the detectors should give a clear picture of the condition and location of the fuel in the cores of the three damaged reactor at Fukushima Daiichi. The detector system currently being installed at Fukushima Daiichi was developed by Japan's High Energy Accelerator Research Organization (KEK). The system uses the so-called permeation method to measure the muon data. The analysis of the data is scheduled to be completed by the end of March.
...snip...
Tepco intends to install a second muon detection system featuring different technology at unit 2 in the coming months.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS-Looking-inside-Fukushima-Daiichi-unit-1-1002154.html
Worth the read. The article goes on to discuss a new robot design that will be used in the coming weeks to enter the containment area through pipes to take a look. That could help not only with the obvious (finding remains of the core), but should also help to refine the muon tomography mentioned above.
FBaggins
(26,754 posts)Small error... but there's a difference between reactors/units and "plants".
yet somehow Japan is still cranking out Toyotas.
There's no "somehow" about it. How they did it is quite clear. They cranked up coal, gas, an ever oil-fired generation and gut-punched their trade balance by having to import more fossil fuels (also driving the price up for mc of the rest of the world). Then they put restrictions on demand (including many plants that are NOT "cranking out" as much product any longer... while other factories shifted to nighttime production and/or purchased their own fossil-fuel generators to ensure supply. Oh... and lets not forget the increase in heat stroke cases for the elderly that couldn't run their A/C units during heat waves even with higher electric bills.
In short... let's not pretend that "cranking out Toyotas" means "the loss of that generation was no big deal
after the earthquake ruptured the mechanics of the reactors making it so the nuclear reactions could not be cooled down and all four either melted down, exploded or burned.
Still wrong there. The earthquake cut primary power and did minor damage to parts of the plant, but they were still cooling effectively on backup power until the tsunami hit. Nor did they need to cool "nuclear reactions" since those ceased within seconds of the start of the quake. It was the decay heat that the couldn't handle for long without the backup generators.
Almost 4 years into this mess, the scientists just now think they have designed a robot that can go in the melted reactors and see what condition the reactor vessels are like. See, the radiation inside is so damaging that previous robots wasted away
You're still pushing that imaginary line after years of correction (including photos and video of robots going all through the plants except the containment itself)? The actual problem that the new robots are designed to overcome is that they need to get into containment without cutting through steel/concrete. They've finally designed a unit that can travel through a 10cm existing pipe all the way to the RPV. They eventually need to close up the leaks and refill the containment with water in order to cut out the damaged core material... they don't want to be cutting robot-sized holes into the containment.
In the mean time they have kept the cores from further explosions
Oh lordy... not this again?
We don't know what that will do
Actually... we do. Because the ocean is in no sense being polluted "like never before" and we have many decades of experience watching the impact.
There are some theories that radiation will kill sea creatures
There are no such theories. There are a couple of nutty UFO/alien/chemtrail/HAARP sites on the internet where people with precisely zero capacity to form a valid "theory" who imagine this. But that's not in any way "science"... let alone "pure science".
but nothing on this scale has ever happened
Dead wrong as usual. Here's just one example. It's the largest... but still only one of many.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Nuke power's gravestone is marked with the name Fukushima.
You keep on dreaming tho. Dreaming that the melted cores are not hot and that they have it all under control. That it is not polluting and that your precious are safe.
The rest of us, the realist and pragmatists, will continue with the wisdom that like the father of the nuclear US Navy said: Get rid of nukes before nukes destroy life as we know it.
If they could have closed up and cleaned up Fukushima by now, they would have. But they can't because it is way too deadly. They could send a million men with shovels in there and maybe a few would come out alive.
But you just keep dreaming. Or grab your shovel and get to work, eh?
FBaggins
(26,754 posts)That has to be some sort of record.
No defense for a single point? Just a new entirely unfounded assertion that nuclear power is dead (despite all the evidence to the contrary)?
All anyone has to do is go read the reports at ENEnews.com
No one believes you when it comes to Fukushima and you made no points worthy of refuting here, so I pretty much didn't even read your words... like who ever does?
All along you have treated Fukushima as your own personal fairy tale of 'Nukes are safe' and nothing bad ever happened there. When you do wake up and begin mentioning the bad things, well talk.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)
Please don't ever change, Bob!
FBaggins
(26,754 posts)Even his argumentum ad hominem draws a chuckle at this point.
One wonders whether even he is buying that nonsense now.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Is a great resource that is a news aggregator with links to mainstream media sources from Japan and elsewhere detailing the world's nuclear catastrophes.
And the fact of the sea life along the west coast of the Pacific ocean dieing in mass.
It is required reading for anyone who seeks the truth.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)" Oh... and lets not forget the increase in heat stroke cases for the elderly that couldn't run their A/C units during heat waves even with higher electric bills."
Even during the worst of the crisis, in the summer of 2011, there were threats of rolling blackouts in a few places, but for the most part they were only threats. The vast majority of electric customers had uninterrupted power for the summer.
Also, Japanese home air conditioners are usually designed to cool only one room, two at the most, so that they do not consume too much power. They also have dehumidifying functions which act as low-cost coolers.
Moreover, and I am speaking as a TEPCO customer who spent the entire summer of 2011 in Japan, the increase in electric rates was barely noticeable. My summer electric bill, which was around 5000 yen (about $50) in the hottest month, was subjected to a surcharge of about 5%, or roughly $2.50. The summer weather that year was actually cooler than expected.
Finally, there has been a sharp increase in the number of heat-related deaths in Japan that began in 1994, with various spikes since then. However, there was actually a big decline in the number of heat-stroke deaths in 2011 compared to the previous year. Based on the available data (through 2012), 2010 was by far the worst year for heat-related deaths in Japan.
http://www.env.go.jp/chemi/heat_stroke/manual/1-3.pdf
FBaggins
(26,754 posts)There were still ~20 reactors running that summer. The economic impact (of electrical generation costs) was larger in 2012/2013/2014 than it was in 2011.
With all due respect to your anecdotal evidence, your electric bill may not change much if the higher rate is partially offset by lower consumption. The rates that the power companies have been charging have increase substanially faster than the negligible rate of inflation. That first summer, commercial rates jumped quite a bit more (15% IIRC) than consumer rates because, while they encouraged consumers to use less, it was the large manufacturers who needed to slash demand (particularly during the middle of the day) in order for the ends to meet.
Many utilities charged higher rates and then added fuel surcharges on top of that (which should at least have the benefit of moderating increases somewhat now that oil prices have declined so significantly)
As for the heatstroke stories... I'm going from memory, but we discussed it a great deal at the time and even the prime minister was warning people that although power needed to be conserved, cutting A/C would risk increased heatstroke problems. Here's one article that came up with a quick search:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-07-12/heatstroke-deaths-quadruple-as-japan-shuns-ac
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Last edited Sat Feb 14, 2015, 01:07 AM - Edit history (1)
in Japan. That was nonsense. There has been an increasing trend in heat stroke deaths in Japan since 1994, but the most dramatic increase in heat-related deaths in Japan occurred in 2010 (1745 deaths) , which was the summer *before* the reactor accidents, when nearly all nuclear reactors in Japan were operating. And yet, the next summer, 2011, just after the disaster when numerous nuclear plants had been taken off-line, either because they were damaged or because the government had mandated inspections, there was actually a significant DROP in the number of heat-related fatalities (less than 1000 deaths), and that DECREASING trend continued into the summer of 2012 (less than 800 deaths), after the last operating nuclear reactor, in Hokkaido (which is much more likely to be the scene of cold-weather deaths than heat-stroke deaths) was taken off-line (on May 5).
See Figure 6 (I 3) in the Japanese Environment Agency's report http://www.env.go.jp/chemi/heat_stroke/manual/1-3.pdf
In summary, the reason why 2011 is significant is because it was the only year when there were rolling blackouts which could have led to an increase in the number of heat-related deaths. And yet, there was actually a SIGNIFICANT DECREASE in the number of such deaths from the previous year, when nearly all of the country's nuclear reactors were operating. The decreasing trend continued in 2012, after the last reactor had been taken off line. Subsequent years (2013, 2014) are irrelevant because there has not been a significant interruption in summer electric power in Japan since 2011.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)That's 'cause they're burning coal, BeFree.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/12/climatechange-japan-idUSL3N0TL1U220141212
Encouraged by eased environmental rules, companies are planning to install about 14.8 gigawatt of coal-fired capacity, an increase of 37 percent, in coming years.
Japan's appetite for cheap coal, to counter a soaring oil and gas bill after the nuclear shutdown, saw it import a record 109 million tonnes of coal in 2013.
Funny, you never comment about the amount of radiation that's in coal emissions.
Sid
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)For years I have worked against coal, and for solar and wind power.
One thing we must realize is that there has never been a permanent evacuation of residents near a coal plant explosion like there has been with Fukushima and Chernobyl. So that gives one an understanding of the relative dangers.
The point of the matter is that Japan can certainly thrive without nukes.
And for your further education I suggest you ask the people of Japan which they'd rather have - nukes or coal.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)
