General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSolly Mack
(90,779 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)The inability of some to see themselves is appalling. No self-awareness at all.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)really came about when many capitalists realized they could get most of the same money without taking the rap for 'owning' people. (Not that they saw anything wrong with owning people, but it was better PR to hire 'free' people, who didn't make enough to ever get out of debt to the company store. You still recaptured the 'wealth' you gave them, providing them the same goods earned by the sweat of their own brows, while skimming off the top, bottom, and sides.)
As long as it was merely a matter of the morality of outright owning other humans, it was going to keep going on. It was only when the owners could start pretending at least a little that they weren't simply parasites living off others' work, that we decided to 'get rid of slavery'.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)what the creator of that meme fails to recognize is the religious component regarding the START of slavery ...
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And certainly, the Southern transition from slavery being mainly economic to an entire social system, a way of life, was itself carried on the backs of a strain of (proto-fundamentalist) reactionary religious thought.....libertine, many Southern planters certainly *were not*! They were anything but such.....contrary, perhaps, to the fantasies of many a neo-Confederate.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)....after all, it truly was a terribly inefficient system, overall, that worked for & benefitted only for those directly involved in the system itself, and those who directly profitted from it's proceeds.....and it screwed everyone else over, big time. Of course, I think that if it hadn't been for Abe Lincoln and the abolitionists, the Tenth Percenters of that era would no doubt have tried to keep slavery alive as long as possible, at least up until the economic collapse that would have inevitably occurred at some point(though I'm sure many of those neo-Confederates who aren't in complete denial of reality of what the C.S.A. was really about, and their ideological allies, would gladly argue otherwise).
But the thing is, even some of the more solidly prejudiced Northerners of the era, let alone much of the rest of the public(including virtually every social liberal), realized what a raw deal slavery would have yoked them with, if introduced into states such as Illinois, Indiana, etc.; otherwise, do you think the Midwest outside of Missouri would have remained free, if the majority of whites truly thought slavery would benefit them? I really don't think so.
And after the Civil War ended, many of the Tenth Percenters, even some up North, still wished slavery hadn't ended; by the time of Lincoln's election, slavery was no longer just an economic system, but a complete way of life, a system of social control, if you will. The end of slavery, and the start of Reconstruction, ended up presenting a dilemma to them.....which led to their promotion of eugenics, and the KKK, etc., in an effort to revitalize racism and to keep people divided and conquered; and sadly, to some extent, it worked for a while.
But the thing is, we don't often hear about certain of these details, now, do we?
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Slavery was an economic benefit for raising very labor intensive crops like cotton, sugar cane, or tobacco. All those crops are pretty tough to harvest, and very labor intensive. The salve-based work force actually expanded pretty dramatically both in raw numbers and as a percentage of the population as the 19th century advanced towards the 1860's. There was no real sign that slavery was near the end of its tether for economic reasons. The pressure to end slavery was almost entirely social. It would have lasted decades longer at the least, IMO.
Slavery was an absolute poison, as you note, and beyond its economic significance, it really did shape the entire southern culture of racism and even misogyny as the system permitted, and even encouraged rape of female slaves, and forced the silent consent of southern gentry women.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Slavery may not have been in *immediate* economic danger in 1860, that may very well be true. But again, slavery was a system that benefitted very few people, and held back many others, and therefore, held back the actual overall development of the South.
"It would have lasted decades longer at the least, IMO."
Perhaps, but only if the Confederacy had successfully succeeded; without that, it would very likely have ended by not much later than 1905-10, even if it took a major economic depression, and/or even outright collapse to do so....and yes, this would be despite the evolution of Southern slavery into what it became, a system of social control.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)he could keep the Union united. I don't believe his emancipation freed slaves in the North. He freed the slaves in the South to cause chaos. My history is a little rusty, so feel free to set me straight.
FourScore
(9,704 posts)It's urban legend that the Civil War was all about ending slavery.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)From Alexander Stephens' (VP of the Conferacy) "Cornerstone Speech"
"But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the rock upon which the old Union would split. He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the storm came and the wind blew.
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal."
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Lincoln was an abolitionist, make no mistake, but before the Emancipation Proclamation, he did make it clear that his goal was preserve the union, not end slavery. HOWEVER, he did consider slavery a very deep evil. And after the fateful decision to issue the Proclamation, the nature of the war changed. Read the lyrics to "John Brown's Body," one of the most popular songs for federal soldiers to sing. It is very clearly an abolitionist song.
The EP did not, and could not end slavery in loyal slave-holding states like Maryland and Kentucky. This is because Lincoln's powers to do these kinds of acts were limited to those states in open rebellion. But he did, of course, pursue the 13th Amendment with vigor, which DID end slavery everywhere in U.S. jurisdiction. Where I grew up (Southern Maryland), sympathies for the South ran high, but even there, by late 1864, slave owners were making freedom bargains with their slaves to ensure their farms and plantations would remain operational. Essentially, many plantations turned to share cropping, or to hiring the slaves as hands directly. With the approach of the end of the war, many slaves in loyal states began abandoning their masters, and the slave owners found less and less support when the attempting to reclaim their "property."
ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)napkinz
(17,199 posts)whathehell
(29,084 posts)It's been "open season" on Christians on DU for some time now.
ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)napkinz
(17,199 posts)This narrative has become an important rallying cry for a movement that has found itself on the losing side of many of the so-called culture wars. By reframing political losses as religious oppression, the Right has attempted to build a justification for turning back advances in gay rights, reproductive rights and religious liberty for minority faiths.
The religious persecution narrative is nothing new it has long been at the core of the Rights reaction to secular government and religious pluralism but it has taken off in recent years in reaction to advances in gay rights and reproductive freedom, and to an increasingly secular and pluralistic society.
read more: http://www.pfaw.org/rww-in-focus/persecution-complex-religious-right-s-deceptive-rallying-cry
whathehell
(29,084 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)napkinz
(17,199 posts)KG
(28,752 posts)louis-t
(23,297 posts)Almost choked on my sandwich.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)napkinz
(17,199 posts)ck4829
(35,084 posts)In their minds, just by being different than them, you are already waging war on them.
They see every action they do is ALWAYS playing the defensive against all the attacks from all the number 1 threats of liberals, atheists, heretics, pagans, secular humanists, freethinkers, Muslims, feminists, etc.
This also explains why they love adulterers like Newt Gingrich and charlatans like Pat Robertson; they're already in the right by confirming their prejudices and so they represent the moral center, so they CAN'T be wrong or immoral, but everyone else is, and the Islamoliberalatheistpaganheretic genocidal attacks (AKA criticism) just prove how right they are and how wrong everyone else is.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Impeach!!!!
Mariana
(14,860 posts)of fantasizing about everyone they don't like burning in hell for eternity. I'm sure they derive much enjoyment out of that.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)definition of sadism
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)"their keen enjoyment hid behind a Gothic mask of duty'
sheshe2
(83,861 posts)Great Op napkinz.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)napkinz
(17,199 posts)sheshe2
(83,861 posts)I had to post and run today, had to finish digging out from all the snow and get to work...
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Wish I could rec this a hundred times.
yuiyoshida
(41,836 posts)MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)mountain grammy
(26,644 posts)Iliyah
(25,111 posts)I'm Christian (Protestant) and am aware of what "Christians" did in the name of Jesus Christ and God. The Voodoo Christians is still at it - present day. The prosecution of Gays, Women and Minorities . . the poor, middle class . .
napkinz
(17,199 posts)But we're not supposed to be "aware" of that history. We're not supposed to acknowledge it.
And the reaction ...
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)fallacy... interesting.
phil89
(1,043 posts)Committing atrocities were Christian? Based on what objective standard of Christianity??
calimary
(81,440 posts)I am LOVING it!!!!!
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)It's just awful what Christians are forced to endure to worship in this country. It's barely a step above feeding them to the lions for sport.
Thav
(946 posts)Someone had the nerve to tell me "good morning" instead of "This is the day the Lord has made, let us be glad and rejoice!" I WAS SO PERSECUTED AND OPPRESSED! For a moment, I thought I was going to be summarily executed for being a Christian! It was terrifying!
Then I remembered I was in the USA and not in a country where real persecution of Christians is happening.
Initech
(100,099 posts)We'll stop "persecuting" you if you stop actually persecuting and vilifying LGBT Americans, deal?
napkinz
(17,199 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Gothmog
(145,489 posts)atreides1
(16,091 posts)Until I see churches being turned into McDonald's franchises, an occupied crucifix every 20 miles along the interstate, and TV ads showing Pat Robertson wrestling a hungry bear...there isn't any Christian persecution taking place!!!
napkinz
(17,199 posts)The tales of horror keep pouring in: Two middle school girls are forced into a lesbian kiss as part of an anti-bullying program; an Air Force sergeant is fired because he opposes same-sex marriage; a high school track team is disqualified from a meet after an athlete thanks God for the teams victory; a Veterans Affairs hospital bans Christmas cards with religious messages; a man fixing the lights in a Christmas tree falls victim to a wave of War-on-Christmas violence; an elementary school student is punished for praying over his school lunch; a little boy is forced to take a psychological evaluation after drawing a picture of Jesus.
None of these stories is true. But each has become a stock tale for Religious Right broadcasters, activists, and in some cases elected officials. These myths which are becoming ever more pervasive in the right-wing media serve to bolster a larger story, that of a majority religious group in American society becoming a persecuted minority, driven underground in its own country.
This narrative has become an important rallying cry for a movement that has found itself on the losing side of many of the so-called culture wars. By reframing political losses as religious oppression, the Right has attempted to build a justification for turning back advances in gay rights, reproductive rights and religious liberty for minority faiths.
The religious persecution narrative is nothing new it has long been at the core of the Rights reaction to secular government and religious pluralism but it has taken off in recent years in reaction to advances in gay rights and reproductive freedom, and to an increasingly secular and pluralistic society.
read more: http://www.pfaw.org/rww-in-focus/persecution-complex-religious-right-s-deceptive-rallying-cry
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)K & R
Many xtians want to BE god to everyone else, not worship their god. They are such sad, mixed up people, they think focusing on what they see wrong in others will solve their own deep-seated problems.
If their god is powerful, you'd never know it. Many Fundies make their god sound like a guy in critical condition in an ICU somewhere, who won't make it unless they can hurt someone in his name.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)and nobody understood it.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)LOL!
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)napkinz
(17,199 posts)Thespian2
(2,741 posts)But don't expect all those fake "christians" out there to understand. Ever. Concrete minds: all mixed-up and permanently set.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)oh ... great, they just took control of the Senate and tightened their grip on the House
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)Seems to me both sides cherry-pick from the same book, the arguments that are used to say one side is invalid are often the same to say the other is invalid too.
If they use the same text, worship the same God/Jesus, then how can you say they are fake. That is unless, they don't believe in God, which I highly doubt in most cases. It seems to be cases of God believing in what the person believes.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)Religion is the source of all evil.
Cha
(297,532 posts)close.. just the ones who work to give it a very bad name.
Mahalo napkinz for pointing out the fake "Christians" hypocrisy.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)what's scary is that's the Republican field in 2016!
Bush, Cruz, Huckabee, Santorum, Carson
Cha
(297,532 posts)misternormal
(1,269 posts)Raphael Cruz is a Christian Dominionist. Dominionists believe that they, and they alone are the stewards of earth, and they will take, and hold onto power, with dominion over mankind until the second coming, but that's not all..
"God anoints priests to work in the church directly and kings to go out into the marketplace to conquer, plunder, and bring back the spoils to the church. The reason governmental regulation has to disappear from the marketplace is to make it completely available to the plunder of Christian kings who will accomplish the end time transfer of wealth. Then Gods bankers will usher in the coming of the messiah. The government is being shut down so that Gods bankers can bring Jesus back."
Read more: http://www.politicususa.com/2013/10/30/left-accept-ted-cruz-dominionist-messiah.html
napkinz
(17,199 posts)misternormal
(1,269 posts)"Ted" is like calling the tech assist specialists for TracFone in Bangladesh "Chris" or "Don".
I guess Junior is as ashamed of his heritage as Gov. Piyush "Bobby" Jindal.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Leith
(7,813 posts)I've copied them all to my collection of cartoons that cheer me up every so often.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)all Christianity is to them is a tool to advance their agenda and to control people. Their misinterpretations and misuse of their religion is what makes them similar to terrorist groups such as Isis.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)ileus
(15,396 posts)whathehell
(29,084 posts)no one with a functioning brain would either.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)hence, conservatives lack a functioning brain
whathehell
(29,084 posts)why must we hear about this one 24/7? ...Just wondering
napkinz
(17,199 posts)from time to time, I pick a theme (or right-wing mantra) and post toons & infographics that convey that particular theme.
This week's theme was the right's Christian Persecution Complex.
edit: I picked that topic because of the conservatives' reaction to the President's speech at the National Prayer Breakfast.
whathehell
(29,084 posts)Christian bashing has become a virtual sport, and lots of us, even those,
of us who are not practicing, are becoming sick of it, ESPECIALLY because
the repeat offenders, will, when cornered, tell you they hate ALL religion,
but steadfastly refuse to criticize any of the other religions, like Judaism or Islam,
and that's just straight up hypocrisy.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)using their faith as a shield to persecute others:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026207247#post78
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026207247#post79
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026207247#post45
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026207247#post80
(If I wanted to argue about religion itself, I would have posted in the Religion & Spirituality forum.)
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Even here on DU, if you are not Christian, or of some mainstream religion, you are forbidden from posting in certain religion forums.
Sad as it may seem, this persecution even exists here, where some may think it has no place.
whathehell
(29,084 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Not, it is true. Even here, if you are not of a mainstream religion, your posts are not wanted in certain groups.
whathehell
(29,084 posts)which certain groups are they?
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)People who do not believe in traditional religions are not permitted to post in the "prayer circle" group.
It says so right on their sticky page there.
The moderator considers certain religions "fake" religions, and they upset the "believers" of traditional religions.
Perhaps the group should be renamed "Traditional Religion Prayer Circle."
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)They use the bible to justify their hate when in the end they just find something icky and have no other reason to justify why it's icky so they say 'The bible told me so'.
Hell it's like saying the reason I won't eat Brussel Sprouts is because the Bible says they are evil. In the end I just don't like Brussel Sprouts but then again my hatred towards all things Brussel Sprouts are not denying the rights of anyone else. I won't even get upset if you serve Brussel Sprouts, my refusal to eat them just means more Brussel Sprouts for the rest of the table.
napkinz
(17,199 posts)Response to napkinz (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
niyad
(113,527 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)It can only happen after Caucasian males are no longer oppressed by The System and Uncontrollable Urges.
(Insert PSA cartoon here which raises the irrational dander of the oppressed MRA)