If you don't think we're already living in a police state, consider this.

[99th_Monkey]

In the USA, over the past 35-40 years, we've seen the steady (albeit gradual) criminalization of things that were once considered tolerable, normative or even admirable: I'm thinking of behavior or states of being that were once tolerated by authorities are now increasingly being criminalized to eliminate, by a thousand cuts, those deemed mostly likely to resist or become embarrassing or inconvenient for an emergent totalitarian regime. Here I'm thinking of homeless people and those in extreme poverty, whistle-blowers and investigative journalists (see Assange, Greenwald, Aaron Swartz), people of color & protesters (see Ferguson, Occupy Wall St.).

Conversely, alongside this criminalization of resistance, the PTB are busily "legalizing" -- and thereby normalizing -- the 24/7 surveillance of all citizens (once considered unconstitutional) , overt bribery & corruption of public officials (see Citizens United), rampant police violence & brutality towards unarmed innocents, secret international courts and tribunals (see the TPP), refusal to prosecute known torturers and war criminals (see Cheney, GWBush, John Yoo, et. al.).

When I add all this up, and look at it in once place, I'm finding it difficult to escape the conclusion that we are ALREADY there, sadly. Stick a fork in us. We're done, well done proverbial frogs in a boiling cauldron of corporate-driven fascism, aka a full-blown Corporate Oligarchy.

While the Koch Bros gleefully drive the last few nails in the coffin of our constitutional democracy in America, progressives are still looking for our car keys. There is no turning this around, not anymore. We're about 10 years too late. Obama really was our last best hope for turning all this around, and we've seen how well that's gone. I'm not anti-Obama. I suspect that Obama really tried, did his best, but was stymied at every crucial turn by dark forces fully capable of assassination at-will.

OK. Now. I'd love to be completely wrong about what I've written above, so please talk me down or prove me wrong if you can.

[blkmusclmachine]

1. 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism (http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm)

Controlled Mass Media

Corporate Power is Protected

Labor Power is Suppressed

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Supremacy of the Military

Obsession with National Security

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

Religion and Government are Intertwined

Fraudulent Elections

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Disdain for Intellectuals

Rampant Sexism

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism



http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

[99th_Monkey]

4. 13 out of 14

Every one of those is totally in place, except for "Religion and Government are Intertwined"

I don't see that happening yet, but 13 nails in a coffin still seals the lid on pretty tight.

[haikugal]

10. It's already happening...

Pay attention...it's well on it's way.

[Jackpine Radical]

66. How about the fundamentalist control of the Air Force Academy?

Or the Fellowship?

Wikipedia:

The Fellowship, also known as The Family,[2][3][4] and the International Foundation[5] is a U.S.-based religious and political organization founded in 1935 by Abraham Vereide. The stated purpose of the Fellowship is to provide a fellowship forum for decision makers to share in Bible studies, prayer meetings, worship experiences and to experience spiritual affirmation and support.[6][7]
The organization has been described as one of the most politically well-connected ministries in the United States. The Fellowship shuns publicity and its members share a vow of secrecy.[8] The Fellowship's leader Doug Coe and others have explained the organization's desire for secrecy by citing biblical admonitions against public displays of good works, insisting they would not be able to tackle diplomatically sensitive missions if they drew public attention.[8]
Although the organization is secretive, it holds one regular public event each year, the National Prayer Breakfast held in Washington, D.C. Every sitting United States president since President Dwight D. Eisenhower, including President Barack Obama, has participated in at least one National Prayer Breakfast during his term.[9][10][11][12]
The Fellowship's known participants include ranking United States government officials, corporate executives, heads of religious and humanitarian aid organizations, and ambassadors and high-ranking politicians from across the world.[2][13][14][15][16] Many United States Senators and Congressmen who have publicly acknowledged working with the Fellowship or are documented as having worked together to pass or influence legislation.[17][18]

[billhicks76]

67. Only Idiots And Fools

Only idiots and fools can deny we live in an actual police state. Physical repression, intolerance of protests, police shootings, constant phone surveillance, license plate readers, unprecedented political blackmail and an expanded Drug War are just some of the obvious factors.

[Enthusiast]

129. Those "free speech zones" were only a hint of what was to come.

[Octafish]

103. Hillary's Prayer and The Fellowship

Under Jones' mentorship, Clinton learned about Reinhold Niebuhr and Paul Tillich—thinkers whom liberals consider their own, but whom young Hillary Rodham encountered as theological conservatives. The Niebuhr she studied was a cold warrior, dismissive of the progressive politics of his earlier writing. "He'd thought that once we were unionized, the kingdom of God would be ushered in," Jones explains. "But the effect of those two world wars and the violence that they produced shook his faith in liberal theology. He came to believe that the achievement of justice meant a clear understanding of the limitations of the human condition." Tillich, whose sermon on grace Clinton turned to during the Lewinsky scandal, today enjoys a following among conservatives for revising the social gospel—the notion that Christians are to improve humanity's lot here on earth by fighting poverty, inequality, and exploitation—to emphasize individual redemption instead of activism.

SOURCE: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-hillary-clintons-religion-and-politics

Get ready and stay rock steady and pray.

[Enthusiast]

128. They are working on that last one, day and night.

[happyslug]

160. It is 14 out of 14, the first step is to define realized what religion is being intertwined

Religion is more than a belief in God (or gods, or the belief that there is not god), it is how people see the world. It is what is "Good" and what is "Evil". Religion helps define who is one's friends who someone must help and who is an enemy who one need NOT help. I have seen "religious" atheists who do all they can to help they fellow man, and I have see "devout" Christians who would not go out of they way to avoid stepping on a man lying in the streets.

Fascism always tries to appear to be true to whatever is the existing dominate religion. Thus Mussolini (a known Atheist) did all he can to improve relations with the Vatican and even help built Rome to make the Vatican the center of the City of Rome. Not to be outdone, Stalin, another atheist, did his best to develop Communism into a Religion, but when he was under severe attacks by the Germans, embraced Orthodoxy (and after WWII, forced the Unities of the Ukraine to join with the Orthodox under his control).

Hitler outdid both by making the old Germanic Tales of the ancient Germanic Gods the bases of Nazisim. Hitler did try to bring Catholicism within the Nazi Orbit, but he knew he failed when Pius IX sent a letter in 1938 denouncing him and Nazism (and the subsequent attempts to kill Hitler, while ran and operated by Protestant members of the German Army, used the Catholic Church as their method to get word to the outside word AND to arrange for the coup).

What Mussolini Hitler and Stalin did was to try to developed a new religion, based on ancient Rome (Mussolini), pre christian Germany (Hitler) or Communism as preached by Marx (Stalin). All three were willing to corrupt that they embraced religions if would enhanced their power (i.e. Rome was First in Europe, the Germans defeated the corrupt and debased Romans, the Workers are on the March to the Worker's paradise) if such change would enhanced their power.

These were the religions these Fascists embraced (and Stalin was a Facist after he came to power in the late 1920s, even Mussolini called Stalin the Greatest Fascist is the age, yes the Communists kicked out the old middle class, but Stalin then installed a new Middle Class to govern the same industries and that New Middle Class, that New Bourgeoisie was his power base and the "Corporate" power in the old Soviet Union). They each had to tolerate Christianity, but they barely did that, while emphasising these non-christian religions.

Now, how is that being done in the US today? First the worship of "Greed is Good". That the best way to improve society is to ignore the poor, leave the weak die and grab all you can. This Religion of Greed is what you see Corporate America Embracing. It is the Religion American Fascists are embracing. It is the world view that the Fascists want America to embrace and become they true religion.

Does the Government stand up to Corporate American? Does the Government help the poor? Is it the job of Government to protect the poor? These are all ways to view the world and thus "Religion" and you see more and more of these concepts being intertwined. They tolerate traditional Christianity, for like Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin they know better to go directly after any religion that oppose what they want done. On the other hand, these Fascists already get people to reject traditional role of Government and to embrace that Government is NOT they to help the poor and other, but only to protect property rights. Christianity, Judaism, Islam and most other religions do NOT view property as the primary thing they need to protect, but it is the "Religion" of Corporate American and thus the Religion of the Fascists among us, and you see this religion and government becoming more and more intervene as time goes on.

The religion that is becoming intertwined with the Government is this radical protection of property, even if it means people die as a result of that radical protection of the ownership of property. I do not advocate elimination of the right to own property, but excess concentration of ownership of anything is bad for any society. Corporate America want this concept, this religion of protection of owning property, intertwined with Government and we are seeing it becoming more and more intertwined.

Thus Religion and Government are being intertwined, but it is the Religion of Property NOT Christianity and that is why we are not seeing it.

[bobclark86]

65. Good job... you just described every year in our lifetimes...

Name one of these that wasn't in effect in 1915 or 1940 (100 and 75 years ago):
Controlled Mass Media
Corporate Power is Protected
Labor Power is Suppressed
Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Supremacy of the Military
Obsession with National Security
Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
Religion and Government are Intertwined
Fraudulent Elections
Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Disdain for Intellectuals
Rampant Sexism
Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

Go read the newspapers of the day (I do as part of my job). Go see the bigotry, the sexism, the disdain for anything not "Red White and Blue Forever!" in history books, the rampant cronyism and corruption...

Nihil novi sub sole.

[lexington filly]

79. But to this degree and such highly sophisticated organization against democracy for ALL?

[bobclark86]

82. Might not have the tech, but "nihil novi sub sole."

Rich people will always try to keep their money and power to themselves. They just have some shinier gizmos and don't outright throw people from boiling pots of water into snowbanks (and repeat until the skin falls off) than they used to.

[SamKnause]

2. I'm in complete agreement.

[Dont call me Shirley]

3. At some point, the pendulum will begin to swing away from this practice toward equality for all.

I, although, am an optimist.

[99th_Monkey]

6. Me too, pretty much

I'm generally an optimist about the future, even in dark times, yet I fear that
my optimism nay have blinded me to the severity of our true situation.

I'm still holding onto the crazy woo-woo notion that at some point a critical mass
of crazy triggers some kind of mass awakening, that would prove unstoppable in
the end (hence my monicker).

[Dont call me Shirley]

13. I consider it the most sane of woowoo notion that at some point a critical mass of sanity triggers

a mass awakening. Crazy is what we are living in now. Sanity is what we must awaken to.

[99th_Monkey]

15. That too.

I think we're just seeing both sides of same awaking coin.

[Dont call me Shirley]

25. Mine has been a slow awakening. LOL!

[TimeToEvolve]

60. i hope that eventually a switch will be thrown in the unconscious mind of everyone.

and then it will occur to everyone that the status quo sucks. when that will happen i hope is soon.

#t=1332

[Hestia]

137. To further the notion, we are living in Interesting Times because

when we all voted for PBO and the Hope and Change platform we didn't specifically state, out loud and in print, what exactly we wanted to Change and what exactly we were Hoping for. Our fallibility as humans is that we think everyone thinks exactly as we do and grew up the same. I've read where the only thing that is keeping us from out and out revolution is middle class values and manners. We don't want to be the one's to fire the first shot.

So, yes, Critical Mass towards Reason to Prevail is that we need to address exactly what that means so everyone is on the same page. It is boring and hard work and will most likely turn people off but that is their problem.

Bernie Sanders is the only one I have seen/read who does address specifics on what we as a country need to address. It has taken him years to get his message out. If it wasn't social media he'd still be languishing along with other progressive voices. His message isn't being filtered by MM.

When you wish for something be extremely specific on what is you want. We fell for the Change tagline, and got exactly what we wanted - change but for the worse. But hey! it's change! Woo hoo!

[HereSince1628]

7. Ever read THE PIT & THE PENDULUM? Yes, the pendulum swings, for us.

[Dont call me Shirley]

24. Yes and I have been in the blackness of eternal night, and I made it through.

[Hestia]

138. The phrase actually comes from Hermeticism - A swing to the right is a swing to the left

The whole point is to get the pendulum to not be so drastic in it's swings.

"Everything flows out and in; everything has its tides; all things rise and fall;
the pendulum-swing manifests in everything; the measure of the swing to the
right, is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates."
— The Kybalion

The great Fifth Hermetic Principle — the Principle of Rhythm —
embodies the truth that in everything there is manifested a measured
motion; a to-and-from movement; a flow and inflow; a swing forward and
backward; a pendulum-like movement; a tide-like ebb and flow; a high tide
and a low-tide; between the two-poles manifest on the physical,
mental or spiritual planes. The Principle of Rhythm is closely connected
with the Principle of Polarity described in the preceding chapter. Rhythm
manifests between the two poles established by the Principle of Polarity.
This does not mean, however, that the pendulum of Rhythm swings to
the extreme poles, for this rarely happens; in fact, it is difficult to
establish the extreme polar opposites in the majority of cases. But the
swing is ever "toward" first one pole and then the other.

There is always an action and reaction; an advance and a retreat; a
rising and a sinking; manifested in all of the airs and phenomena of the
Universe. Suns, worlds, men, animals, plants, minerals, forces, energy,
mind and matter, yes, even Spirit, manifests this Principle. The Principle
manifests in the creation and destruction of worlds; in the rise and fall of
nations; in the life history of all things; and finally in the mental states of
Man.

Beginning with the manifestations of Spirit — of THE ALL — it will be
noticed that there is ever the Outpouring and the Indrawing; the
"Outbreathing and Inbreathing of Brahm," as the Brahmans word it. The Kybalion

Universes are created; reach their extreme low point of materiality; and
then begin their upward swing. Suns spring into being, and then their
height of power being reached, the process of retrogression begins, and
after aeons they become dead masses of matter, awaiting another
impulse which starts again their inner energies into activity and a new
solar life cycle is begun. And thus it is with all the worlds; they are born,
grow and die; only to be reborn. And thus it is with all the things of
shape and form; they swing from action to reaction; from birth to death;
from activity to inactivity and then back again. Thus it is with all living
things; they are born, grow, and die — and then are reborn. So it is with
all great movements, philosophies, creeds, fashions, governments,
nations, and all else — birth, growth, maturity, decadence, death — and
then new-birth. The swing of the pendulum is ever in evidence.

[snippage]
more at http://kybalion.org/TheKybalion.pdf

The Kybalion was written in 1921 and reads as such. It takes a bit to delve into the vernacular of those times. I am so surprised when those who don't read Hermetic texts because it is not a religion but a Philosophy of the Mind.

[HereSince1628]

162. Interesting, but the pendulum I referred to is meant to cut victims in half

[Hestia]

166. Oh, yuck...;)

[japple]

69. Same thoughts here, Dont. Though I have read of many Jews in Germany who

kept thinking that their status in society as professionals, scholars, thinkers and/or wealthy elite would protect them from the dark forces that enveloped their country.

I am optimistic, hopeful, that there will be an awakening of our society to the more rational, enlightened, forward-looking culture we need to make this world a better place for all.

[AndyTiedye]

97. The Pendulum Only Moves in One Direction

[annabanana]

143. I said that during the Reagan administration . . . . . .

hasn't happened yet..

[Javaman]

149. but when it swings back, it won't be pretty.

never once in history has there ever been a peaceful transition from zealots to the ones with common sense.

there will be blood.

[Faryn Balyncd]

5. The big picture .....

Important post.


Thanks.

[99th_Monkey]

8. Thank you. nt

[haikugal]

9. Well said and I completely agree...

[treestar]

11. Nothing has been criminalized that has not gone through the legislature

The elected legislature, and signed by an elected executive.

[99th_Monkey]

16. Yes. On that we agree.

But not really. Not when you consider new "laws" bought and paid
for by armies of corporate lobbyists throwing fistfuls of money at officials
who do their bidding. When just this one thing is factored in, then
the "legitimacy" of such "new laws" is vaporized.

[Faryn Balyncd]

12. Here's Naomi Wolf's prescient views from 2007:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

[99th_Monkey]

22. I remember that - Naomi nails it.

which was one of the reasons I worked my ass off to elect Obama.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

14. Yup! When I saw the beatdown of Occupy and the neo-military response to Furgoson

I knew our bold experiment in Democracy had failed. Dissent = terrorisim.

It will be interesting to see what happens when rest of the peasants figure it out.

Thank the Godess I don't have kids.

[99th_Monkey]

17. Dissent = Terrorism

Absolutely spot on. I should have included that. Thank you.

[OilemFirchen]

36. ...

:large

[WillowTree]

18. Well that's certainly cheery!

Happy Sunday to you, too!!

[99th_Monkey]

19. LOL

Thanks for lightening things up a bit.

[WillowTree]

23. Thank YOU so much, for understanding my intent.

That doesn't happen all the time around here so I really appreciate it when it does.

[Fred Sanders]

30. Brightened my day! We still got Obama, the White House, all the good States, and all the good ideas.

[Octafish]

20. A REAL Democrat tried to warn us in 1976.

Last edited Sun Feb 8, 2015, 08:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Frank Church was a patriot, a hero and a statesman, truly a great American.

The guy also led the last real investigation of CIA, NSA and FBI. When it came to NSA Tech circa 1975, he definitely knew what he was talking about:

“That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide. If this government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.

I don’t want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capability that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return.”

-- Sen. Frank Church (D-Idaho) FDR New Deal, Liberal, Progressive, World War II combat veteran. A brave man, the NSA was turned on him. Coincidentally, he narrowly lost re-election a few years later.

Newly minted CIA director George Herbert Walker Bush would help shut down the investigation by making a case that former agents leaked the CIA station chief in Greece's name. Of course, no one brought up the point that the man's name was well known before any leaks, as detailed in here on DU.

And what happened to Church, for his trouble to preserve Democracy:

In 1980, Church will lose re-election to the Senate in part because of accusations of his committee’s responsibility for Welch’s death by his Republican opponent, Jim McClure.

SOURCE: http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=frank_church_1

Spanning from the pre-war years to the present day are the people who tried to overthrow FDR in 1933 and their kids.

The BFEE represent the Dulles Brothers in the present Age. As David Talbot, Salon.com co-founder put it: Allen Dulles was the chairman of the board of the assassination. Since the assassination of President Kennedy 50 years ago, money has trumped peace. Its agent is secret, unaccountable government, which has worked to create the richest and most powerful class in history, and wars without end and now the best STASI money can buy to keep them that way.

[99th_Monkey]

27. I remember the Church Committee's good work

but I wasn't as politically aware or active in 70s.

Thank you for refreshing my memory with your excellent post.

[MinM]

73. Daniel Schorr was fired by CBS over the Richard Welch case too ..

...On January 16, 1975 he held a White House luncheon for the editors of the NY Times. Someone asked why Ford had picked such a conservative and defense minded panel to make up the Rockefeller Commission (e.g. Ronald Reagan was a member). The president said he needed people who would not stray from the straight and narrow. If they did, they could stumble upon matters that might hurt the national interest. The editor asked "Like what?" Ford replied with, "Like assassinations!" (Schorr, p. 144) Ford added that this was off the record. But reporter Daniel Schorr deduced that since the Rockefeller Commission was investigating domestic matters, Ford must have meant American assassinations. (ibid) But later CIA Director William Colby effectively spun Ford's comment . He told Schorr that the CIA had run assassination plots abroad, but not in America. (ibid) This deftly neutralized Ford's slip. The committees would now look at CIA assassination plots against foreign leaders. In regards to the JFK case, the Church Committee would only investigate the performance of the intelligence agencies in investigating Kennedy's murder.

But even Colby was too much for Ford. He was deemed too open with congress. After all, when mobster Sam Giancana was murdered before testifying, Colby went out of his way to say the CIA had nothing to do with it. (ibid, p. 155) Colby was later fired for being too forthcoming. Ford picked George Bush to replace him. And as further signal of his new "get tough" policy, Ford made a young Dick Cheney his Chief of Staff, and moved Donald Rumsfeld into the Pentagon.

With all these elements in place, Ford decided to use the 1975 murder of a CIA officer as a way to squelch and smear any further investigation. Richard Welch was the CIA station chief in Athens. The CIA and Ford blamed his death on the fact that his name had been exposed by an American journal called Counterspy. In fact, the leftist rebel group who killed him had issued a communiqué beforehand that revealed they knew his name then. (Schorr, p. 191) In a classic case of political propaganda, Ford and the CIA pulled out all the stops in using Welch's funeral as psychological warfare against the committees. Welch's body was flown into Andrews Air Force Base. But the plane circled the base for 15 minutes to time the landing for the morning news shows. (ibid) Ford attended the chapel service. But the press was barred in order to suggest that they were to blame for Welch's murder. Colby issued a statement saying that Welch's death was the result of a "paranoiac attack on ... Americans serving their country." David Phillips was interviewed by CBS and said, American agents are in less danger today from the KGB than from the "moral primitives" who "condemn my label". (ibid) Welch's body was buried at Arlington with full military honors. His coffin was carried on the same horse-drawn caisson that carried President Kennedy's. Colby gave the flag draped over it to Welch's widow. As Schorr wrote, "This is the CIA's first secret agent to become a pubic national hero." (ibid)

It worked. Henry Kissinger jumped on the committees: "I think they have used classified information in a reckless way ... " (ibid p. 194) Both committees closed up shop shortly after. Ford and the CIA held veto power over what could be published. When Otis Pike defied that agreement, Congress bottled up his report. A copy was smuggled to Daniel Schorr. As he was arranging to have it released, his boss, Bill Paley, lunched with Bush. (ibid, p. 201) The Pike Report was published in a special issue of The Village Voice. Forgetting his own use of classified material for his Oswald book, Ford now proposed an FBI investigation to find out who gave the report to Schorr. (ibid, p. 208) After Paley's meeting with Director Bush, Schorr was taken off the air by CBS. After a two hour impromptu interrogation – during which he was not represented by counsel – Schorr was fired by the network. He was later investigated by the House but refused to reveal his source for the report...

http://www.ctka.net/2008/bugliosi_8_review.html

William Colby stipulated to "foreign assassination plots"

[navarth]

74. Octafish, the second-to-last link

is referring to The Plot To Seize the White House? I'm clicking on it but it seems to be throwing a DU error message of some kind.

Smedley Butler is one of my personal heroes.

Thanks for not letting us forget Frank Church.

[Octafish]

77. From DU2: The people who tried to overthrow FDR in 1933 had kids.

Almost same thing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024780249#post107

[navarth]

87. great thread. thanks.

[Enthusiast]

131. +1 an entire shit load.

[hifiguy]

21. Kick and Rec for TRUTH. nt

[uhnope]

26. oh pleeeez...you insult people being persecuted around the world by using this term for the USA.

Go to the streets of North Korea or China...go to Russia and try to write an article condemning Putin...go to Byelorussia...go walk down the street in Iran or Saudi Arabia without a headscarf...go live in Turkmenistan or Uzbekistan for a month...THEN get back to us about what a police state is.

Honest to god, you insult people being persecuted around the world by using this term for the USA.

[99th_Monkey]

29. The USA is catching up at light-speed, to N. Korea and China.

Which you apparently want us to completely ignore.

Your post is an insult to all lovers of a real constitutional democracy.

[uhnope]

31. you're really in tinfoil hat department there

such extreme exaggerations are ridiculous. Why don't you just get it over with and call the USA a Nazi government? yeah, start in with FEMA camps and conspiracies to confiscate all guns...

[99th_Monkey]

37. Nice try

i.e. trying to hang some "Libertarian-leaning" Alex Jones albatross around my neck,
hoping to discredit my OP by (false) association.

Sorry, no cigar.

[uhnope]

41. words have meaning. You undermine the fight for human rights when you

promote ridiculous exaggerations.

[99th_Monkey]

47. I don't know about your "fight for human rights"

but mine includes paying close attention to creeping fascism to
stem it's rising tide in the USA in particular, since that's where I
hold citizenship.

Excuse me for being a wee bit suspicious of your true intentions
and motivation, when you try to trash my OP with dismissive
distortions, insults & hollow accusations.

[uhnope]

50. read post #46. Your view is one-sided and a bit silly.

There have been increases in freedom in the last 40 years, too.

[99th_Monkey]

57. Please see post #53

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026198402#post53

[Enthusiast]

132. +1 an entire shit load.

[StoneCarver]

102. You should zip it and think about it...

Really, this is a serious point and concern. Yes you can always find a worse example but this is our country and the birth place of democracy -if we can hang on to it. So your N. Korea, etc examples are hollow. So zip it.

[Faryn Balyncd]

54. When younger, I would NEVER have believed the USA could EVER sink to 46th in press freedom

The United States plunged 14 places in the annual Press Freedom Index released by Reporters Without Borders on Wednesday. The group said it was "one of the most significant declines" in press freedom it had tracked during 2013.

The US in now ranked 46th on the RWB list, in between Romania and Haiti. It was ranked 32nd in the 2013 index. (Finland tops the entire list.)

The press freedom group was blunt in its explanation. It cited increased efforts to track down whistleblowers and the sources of leaks, mentioning Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden in particular. It also condemned the Justice Department's surveillance of reporters, and the continued leak battle facing New York Times journalist James Risen. . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024487392

As Naomi Wolf notes:

Of course, the United States is not vulnerable to the violent, total closing-down of the system that followed Mussolini's march on Rome or Hitler's roundup of political prisoners. Our democratic habits are too resilient, and our military and judiciary too independent, for any kind of scenario like that.

Rather, as other critics are noting, our experiment in democracy could be closed down by a process of erosion.

It is a mistake to think that early in a fascist shift you see the profile of barbed wire against the sky. In the early days, things look normal on the surface; peasants were celebrating harvest festivals in Calabria in 1922; people were shopping and going to the movies in Berlin in 1931. Early on, as WH Auden put it, the horror is always elsewhere - while someone is being tortured, children are skating, ships are sailing: "dogs go on with their doggy life ... How everything turns away/ Quite leisurely from the disaster."

As Americans turn away quite leisurely, keeping tuned to internet shopping and American Idol, the foundations of democracy are being fatally corroded. Something has changed profoundly that weakens us unprecedentedly: our democratic traditions, independent judiciary and free press do their work today in a context in which we are "at war" in a "long war" - a war without end, on a battlefield described as the globe, in a context that gives the president - without US citizens realising it yet - the power over US citizens of freedom or long solitary incarceration, on his say-so alone.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment

[woo me with science]

100. +10000 And..The United States has the largest prison population in the world,

The United States has the largest prison population in the world and the second-highest per capita incarceration rate. Not behind North Korea or China, but behind Seychelles.

And our corrupt corporate government is aggressively expanding our for-profit prison system, attaching a profit motive to and creating a PROFIT INDUSTRY out of CAGING HUMAN BEINGS.

The Obama administration is aggressively growing private prisons.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4034692

[damnedifIknow]

140. "Almost 12 million people cycle through local jails each year"

?v=6

"There are almost 15,000 children behind bars whose “most serious offense” wasn’t a crime."

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie.html

[Enthusiast]

133. PLUS ONE, a whole bunch!

[Kalidurga]

32. an interesting we don't have it as bad approach...

to the OP. As if the worst case senarious happened over night or without a power structure to allow them to happen.

[JDPriestly]

62. Did you participate in Occupy Wall Street or visit any of their sites?

Did you watch as the police in military garb weapons ready cleared the Occupy Wall Street sites?

Obviously, I was not a participant in Occupy Wall Street. But I visited some of their sites. The people were not armed. They were not violent. They were not dangerous. Vandalism was associated with their activities in a couple of cities. But I suspect that the overall amount of vandalism or worse yet crime in those cities was not increased by much due the activities of some of those hanging around Occupy Wall Street.

Based on my visits to those sites and on watching videos of some of the repression of Occupy Wall Street, I think it is probably fair to say that it would take very little to turn the cities in the US into a police state. I've been in police states. It would take very little to round up people the government (any government by any group in the US) did not like. We are all categorized and cataloged along with our friends and acquaintances. The police are well armed and well organized and quite wiling to follow orders.

Just read a little history of NAZI Germany.

Here is a good start:

They Thought They Were Free
http://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

I have wondered why there are not more books on the STASI and the situation in East Germany after WWII. I will let you guess.

The standard text on WWII is
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany Paperback – October 11, 2011
by William L. Shirer (Author), Ron Rosenbaum (Introduction)
1,187 customer reviews
http://www.amazon.com/The-Rise-Fall-Third-Reich/dp/1451651686

There are members on this board (I know one of them), who lived through part of the time of the Third Reich. They did not have the technology that our government has, but they controlled people very efficiently. Most people went along with what was going on. A minor violation of the law could put you in jail and worse. We could easily get there. Never take it for granted that we could not.

That is why I along with Frank Church believe that we should insist on carefully upholding our constitutional rights and reject as we can the idea that our papers, our e-mails, any correspondence on the internet that we require a password to post or review may be subject to government collection or review without a warrant issued upon probably cause and the specific information required by the Fourth Amendment.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment

This amendment was included by Madison and the Congress in the Bill of Rights. It was modeled on a provision written by John Adams. If you read the history of the American Revolution beyond the superficial tea party story you get in school, you will understand that the Fourth Amendment is the heart and soul of our Constitution and why it was so important to the Founding Fathers.

I hope you will be able to learn more about these issues. Yes. A security state, an oppressive state can happen anywhere. The tremendous surveillance capacity of the US government is a danger to every citizen. Intelligence is necessary for any country. But our intelligence surveillance capacity is out of proportion to the kinds of dangers we face as a country.

[uhnope]

70. I agree with and know about everything in your excellent post

My problem with the OP is it's hyperbolic to say the US is a "police state" "already" when we are far from that (not that I am pleased with the status quo.) That actually detracts from the fight for human rights IMO

[JDPriestly]

107. I think we are on the edge but we can pull back from it.

[AndyTiedye]

98. The Countries You Mentioned Have Lower Incarceration Rates Than the USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

[whereisjustice]

112. "I mean some people who claim to be poor even have microwave ovens and TVs..." Fox News

I see - so we still have far to go in our decline, so we should shut the fuck up until we are all sleeping in cardboard shacks and sewing designer jeans for rich teenagers at .50 a day in sweatshops?

As a mater of raw incarceration, police violence and corrupption, poverty, health care, infant mortality, wealth disparity, infrastructure, opportunity for advancement, racism, and opportunity for citizen participation in Government, we may not be North Korea, but who gives a fuck? We are at the bottom of the Western world in almost every category except for military power. And in states like Texas, Michigan, Mississippi, the poverty IS AT THIRD WORLD LEVELS.

Is this the new Democratic Party standard for quality of life - North Fucking Korea?

Christ almighty you have to be brain fucking dead to not acknowledge the immense police state infrastructure being put in place to keep our class war from being a hot war.

The more the rich plunder our labor and our wealth, the more they are afraid we may actually rise up against them.

[Enthusiast]

134. Nice!

[CrispyQ]

28. From a while back, but interesting, nonetheless.

Nonconformity and Freethinking Now Considered Mental Illnesses

http://theunboundedspirit.com/nonconformity-and-freethinking-now-considered-mental-illnesses/

Is nonconformity and freethinking a mental illness? According to the newest addition of the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), it certainly is. The manual identifies a new mental illness called “oppositional defiant disorder” or ODD. Defined as an “ongoing pattern of disobedient, hostile and defiant behavior,” symptoms include questioning authority, negativity, defiance, argumentativeness, and being easily annoyed.

~more at link

Don't like the way a certain group is thinking? Categorize 'em as crazy & lock 'em up.

[99th_Monkey]

33. Wow, yes.

That is yet another very important area where people can be silenced, marginalized
& locked up indefinitely for not conforming to totalitarian demands.

I have one son who could easily be diagnosed as ODD, so I completely get this..
Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

[uhnope]

34. and can you tell us who in the USA has been arrested for "freethinking"?

cuz I'm thinking: nobody

[CrispyQ]

39. They love the Internet & are collecting data on all of us.

They will use it selectively when the time is right.

Glad you're not worried about the surveillance state, though!

[uhnope]

42. I see. So the police will bust down the doors of the freethinkers when?

Please tell us more about this.

[99th_Monkey]

43. That's silly

Our totalitarians don't call it "free thinking". They're a bit smarter than that.

They call it resisting arrest, disturbing the peace, espionage, having "Oppositional
Defiance Disorder" diagnosis, driving while black, sleeping in public, et. al.

Actually, now that I think of if, I suspect you're a bit smarter too, than to think our
Corporate Overlords would overtly pass a law against free thinking.

[Initech]

35. Sascha Cohen said it best at the end of "The Dictator":

[TeamPooka]

38. K&R!

[world wide wally]

40. We lost this game a long time ago. The two minute warning was when we let the Supreme Court

decide who our President was. The final bell sounded when we allowed that president to lie us into invading a foreign country and we said nothing.
There were numbers events leading up to all of this, nut for the sake of simplicity, I am only discussing the final minutes of the 4th quarter.

[JEB]

71. That ushered in the "watch what you say" era.

Is that Habeas Corpus back there in the rear view mirror standing beside un-prosecuted torturers?

[Enthusiast]

135. PLUS ONE, a huge bunch!

We tend to forget about that supreme court decision. They ruled, "Stop counting the votes."

The fear was, Gore had won the election. They did not steal that election with good intentions in mind. Just examine what has transpired since then. It is clear. It simply cannot be a coincidence.

[cheapdate]

44. I'm not sure there was a ever a golden age in America's past,

when we weren't faced with extremely serious problems, injustices, and threats. During the McCarthy era, and arguably during the George W. Bush era, we were probably at a point that could have very easily turned toward fascist totalitarianism.

The civil rights era was a time of enormous unrest, violence, and police abuse, that easily rivals anything occurring today.

The labor movements in the late 19th and early 20th century were often very violent and the clashes with the state were, at times, almost like a state of war.

I'm not sure there was ever a golden age when the homeless were treated with compassion, either.

I think we've seen worse. Today's oligarchs, corporations, and bankers are powerful, but we can beat them.

[Cryptoad]

45. The Age of Privacy

is dead and gone with the birth of the Digital Age! Please Tell Papa Paul !

[Bluenorthwest]

46. I think your first paragraph could use more detail because as I read about the last 40 years being

a period of more things becoming illegal I started thinking about the many, many laws against LGBT people and things that have been overturned, voted out, exchanged for laws protecting LGBT people and things. The Immigration Act excluded homosexuals until 1991. You probably did not know this, being not one.
It's been slightly more than 40 years since Roe, but until then 30 States, abortion a crime.

Then there's marijuana, which many States are legalizing and decriminalizing. Historically and in unreformed areas, marijuana laws have long been a tool for oppressing minorities and the poor, legal, less illegal.

So I guess as a guy who was previously a criminal being, the whole notion that formerly tolerated things are being rapidly criminalized might need some examples. I note you just speak in generalized terms. I'm talking about people put in jail for being at a gay bar or getting an abortion and you are talking about what now?

[uhnope]

52. yes. The INCREASE in freedoms in the USA in last 40 years doesn't fit into the narrative

of anti-Americanism, of the guilt complex, of the psychological projection, the black-and-white thinking or whatever motivates folks to start saying the USA is a "police state." That's a very strong term, and there are many places in the world that really qualify for it.

[99th_Monkey]

53. Thanks for your thoughtful post

I don't deny that in areas such as gay rights, abortion and weed that we are indeed "better off"
than we were 40 years ago, and I celebrate that with you.

IMNO these were the proverbial "carrots" as in carrot and stick. The Oligarchs know how to
pick their battles to serve the long game, and they are winning big right now.

[uhnope]

59. I see. So there's a plan by the "The Oligarchs" to fool us by giving us some freedom

while actually imposing a "police state" that is already here.

Is that about right?

[99th_Monkey]

63. First the came for the poor,

Then they came for black males, then they came for OWS, ...

Using the fact that on some "social issues" we've made progress, to
suggest that we shouldn't give a rats ass about basic civil rights for
blacks, homeless people, protesters and whistleblowers is ludicrous.

Eventually they'll get around to whoever attempts to stand in their way.

But that IS what you are saying, right? You're suggesting that since
women wanting abortions and gays now have new rights, that they
should not even care about others who are being criminalized for
spurious reasons.

[uhnope]

64. Are you aware that you are quoting from the Holocaust and Nazi Germany?

The "First they came for..." quote is from Martin Niemöller about the Nazi Holocaust. So now you're comparing the US to that?

I'm saying that hyperbole like yours really turns a lot of people off from human rights work. Because if someone sounds nutty, rational people don't want to get involved.

Because, no, the USA is not a police state, and no, a Nazi Holocaust is not in process. You seem to really think that. Which is just bonkers, sorry.

[99th_Monkey]

76. You misrepresent my point

My point is not that we're exactly like Nazi Germany.

Our emerging Oligarchy has it's own unique characteristics
and stages of development; and prefers to avoid mimicking
Hitler's ways as much as possible, so as to not be too
obvious, until it's too late. <-- and we're rapidly approaching
or are already "there" by equating dissent with "terrorism",
filling profit-driven prisons with black males, punishing
whistle blowers, etc.

You appear to be A-ok with proceeding down this road to
total tyranny, but I'm not.

[99th_Monkey]

156. Please don't put words in my mouth

In the first place I have never said "oh we're just like the Nazis', those are your
words, not mine.

In second place, as you know, not every take-down of democracy by dark
totalitarian forces looks exactly the same; and I know you know better
than that. Thats just simplistic thinking.

The point is that the US is incrementally steadily moving in that direction, with
a lot of help from Koch Bros and their ilk. The signs are all over the place, as
was the point of posts numbered 20 and 63.

[Bluenorthwest]

91. You demean the years of struggle against your straight culture that produced the progress in

LGBT rights, and you fail to answer my request for actual examples of your complaints. I list 3 major areas of progress, and there are many more, but you just dismiss them, 'carrot and stick' as if there is not worth or meaning to them. Why? Do you not see the inherent disrespect in your exchange? You ignore my questions, dismiss my arguments out of hand, huge strides forward are 'carrots' to you. You who just can't manage to offer examples of what you are talking about. Straight privilege. It's what for dinner.

[99th_Monkey]

94. What is it about

"I don't deny that in areas such as gay rights, abortion and weed that we are indeed "better off"
than we were 40 years ago, and I celebrate that with you. " that you do not understand?

Given the vitriol of your post, accusing me of demeaning LGBT peeps, I can't resist asking you:

So you are advocating that LGBT peeps should ignore abuses of other minorities (protesters,
blacks, whistle-blowers, etc.) who ARE being subjected to abuse, arrest, or worse? You are
in effect then saying "we got ours, so you can just fuck off and die".

I kind of doubt you mean to say that, but can you understand how it might sound that way to
a protester, or black or journalist who've been beaten, jailed, or worse?

[Bluenorthwest]

141. I think the fact that you feel you can characterize me with impunity suggests a lack of equity in

the way you approach LGBT people. It's rude, mean, full of bullshit accusations. You create verbiage out of your own mind and ask me to answer for it? Do you think you own me?
Still you failed to simply offer your examples of the regressions after I offered examples of great progress, hard won after centuries of brutal oppression by the straight society. 'That's just the carrot'. So very full of straight privilege it is surprising that so much room is left over for bullshit.

[99th_Monkey]

150. You act like LGBT is the ONLY issue anyone should care about

and if I don't bow to your demands you get even more abusive towards me.

I apologize if the "carrot" thing seemed to somehow diminish or belittle the LGBT cause.
That certainly wasn't my intent, my intent was to look at the whole 'big picture' of issues
we ALL care about (mostly related to civil and human rights for all).

But you never answered my question: Does the hard-won positive change for LGBT peeps
rights mean that now LGBT community should just hang up their fighting gloves and hunker
down while unarmed black males are publicly executed in our streets, protesters are beaten
and jailed, and war criminals and torturers walk free?

[LanternWaste]

144. What specifically leads you to believe that gay rights was a "carrot" developed by oligarchs?

What specifically leads you to believe that gay rights was a "carrot" developed by oligarchs? Which specific oligarchs were involved, and is there any documentation of this plan being put into effect?

[99th_Monkey]

155. I'm not wedded to that point of view.

It was a mere conjecture on my part offered to help explain why it is that huge advances have recently
(over past few decades) been made in the areas of LGBT, abortion rights & weed, while at the same
time a repressive Oligarchy is rapidly eclipsing our constitutional democracy.

I could be wrong about it. I haven't spent days or even hours researching it. I suspect the PTB are
smart enough to pick their battles carefully enough to be able to advance their long game steadily
and incrementally, so as not to trigger a mass violent uprising. <--this was the context of the 'carrot'
speculation.

[zeemike]

48. I wish I could talk you down from it.

But anything I say will just confirm it for you.
Things have changed in this country and I have seen it, and it is not an improvement.

[uhnope]

55. and how does this supposed Police State USA compare to actual police states in...

China, North Korea, or Saudi Arabia?
How does it compare to what happens to journalists in Russia who condemn Putin? Or try to expose his corruption of robbing Russia blind? How does it compare to what happens to gays in Russia:

The ‘Hunted’ Gays of Putin’s Russia: Vicious Vigilantes and State Bigotry Close Up
Targeted on all sides by thugs, the Kremlin, and the Orthodox Church, Russian LGBTs face a desperate situation that is graphically evoked in HBO’s new documentary.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/06/the-hunted-gays-of-putin-s-russia-vicious-vigilantes-and-state-bigotry-close-up.html

Now please tell us how the USA is a "police state"

[99th_Monkey]

58. I refer you to post 53

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6198794

[zeemike]

101. The OP has already answered the question.

And I have no intentions of being distracted by someone pointing over there.

[rhett o rick]

145. Asking questions in lieu of presenting an actual counter argument seems to indicate

that you don't have a counter argument but hope to dissuade the OP by asking insinuating questions.

Tell us how you feel. Are you ok with the status quo?

[uhnope]

147. police reform is of the utmost importance IMO but reform is stalled by yahoos yelling "police state"

Part of the situation in the US is that the police abuse problem is decentralized--not the definition of a police state at all. When sensible people hear someone crying "police state," they will quickly proceed in the other direction, and they will suspect that the crier is either working out some personal issues that make them want to fantasize about living in a police state, or the crier has ulterior motives (like the apologists for actual police states in the world who want to bash the US.) A third possibility is that the crier is just naive. I think all three types are represented on this thread.

Good?

[questionseverything]

153. ..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017243872

[uhnope]

154. Kevin Gosztola is a joke and any program on RT is compromised

[questionseverything]

158. dif source same info

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014998639

aclu does good work

[uhnope]

159. thanks! yes I heard about that a while ago, it's insane

and we have to fight it

[questionseverything]

161. so the police power is centralized (dea=feds)

the surveillance is illegal and the stated goal is to confiscate property without due process

and it started in 2008

[bluestateguy]

49. Non criminal citations become increasingly criminalized

Like this scenario:

1) Somebody gets a parking ticket
2) The ticket is not paid either because the person can't afford to pay it, or simply forgot about it.
3) So now an arrest warrant is issued
4) Sometime later that person is picked up and arrested
5) At court the judge suspends his driver's liscence and levies a small fine
6) He can't afford the fine, and needs his car to get to work, so he drives anyway
7) He gets pulled over for a broken tail light, and is then arrested and taken to jail

and on it goes.

[Ramses]

51. Thousands of Occupy beat up and arrested

Felony arrests that forever take away a persons right to vote. Mass spying on virtually all communication. Literally the largest prison population on the planet. Hundreds of thousands more on probation and parole. 50 plus million on food stamps


Criminalization of a beneficial plant. Military equipment and weapons in the hands of most police departments. State and fedeal court system packed with right wing lunatics hell bent on criminalizing as many people as possible

Yea, its a fucking police state

[woo me with science]

56. Huge, huge K&R. Of course you are correct,

Last edited Sun Feb 8, 2015, 07:51 PM - Edit history (4)

and we are already there, notwithstanding the relentless drumbeat of lies from the 24/7 propaganda machine.

(Can you take me off your list of known torturers and war criminals?)


[font size=4]Me:

John Yoo:

[/font size]

(Just teasing... Thank you for this very important OP.



.

[erronis]

61. And the legitimization of corporate theft from the people's coffers

To take this argument into the realm of the thieves who occupy Wall St, the banks, the insurance companies, your friendly investment company:

Conversely, alongside this criminalization of resistance, the PTB are busily "legalizing" -- and thereby normalizing -- the 24/7 surveillance of all citizens (once considered unconstitutional) , overt bribery & corruption of public officials (see Citizens United), rampant police violence & brutality towards unarmed innocents, secret international courts and tribunals (see the TPP), refusal to prosecute known torturers and war criminals (see Cheney, GWBush, Woo, et. al.).

The money that is being robbed from our savings, our homes, our children is not being prosecuted by "our" government. Could it be that our government is run by the foxes?

[pinto]

68. OK, you may be conflating a number of issues, hyperbalizing things and calling up a mythical past.

The extremely poor, the homeless, itinerants have always been marginalized. Sometimes through simple public neglect, antagonistic public opinion or overt legal actions. It's not a new situation by any means.

Journalism has always been in contrast to the official "line" when appropriate and documented. While the 24/7 social media aspect of it all has changed the game, I think the bulk of journalism still holds to an independent voice. And journalism has often challenged the record when it has the verifiable info.

War criminal charges against Cheney, GWBush, John Yoo, et. al. are a whole another issue. One I think is unlikely to come to a federal court. The court of public opinion is a whole another matter.

Appreciate your passion, but suggest you pick and choose your spots. Conflating them all together may be essentially ineffective and in some instances, damaging to some of the basics we support.

[99th_Monkey]

83. I realize that can be accused of "conflating issues"

yet I know of no other way to get the "big picture" without doing
that to some extent.

I did notice some other posts actually added even more
issues to my list ... such as how dissent can be diagnosed as "crazy"
Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), or the War on Drugs, or the
fundamentalist control of the Air Force Academy, etc.

So I'm standing by my OP, for sake of connecting dots and tracking
overall trends.

[pinto]

85. See your point.

Mine was in a sense of caution, ends to means and all that.

[99th_Monkey]

86. Thanks for that.

It probably needed to be said.

[grasswire]

72. the only stickler in the argument is the guns

Can it be a true police state while the citizenry are armed?

I'm not arguing against your essay. Just wondering.

[99th_Monkey]

78. Good point you make.

But like I've said about progressive "wins" (gay rights, abortion & weed),
they just can't do everything they want to all at once.

One of the far-Right's big "wins" (although I hate to admit it, because I'm
not enamored with our gun-nut culture) is championing a deadly gun-nut
culture that's brought us public shooting sprees nearly on a daily basis.

I suspect that the Right isn't too concerned about the gun thing, as long
as it's Right-wing open-carry survivalists and not Occupy or radical blacks
wielding them. Think Blackwater, and which side they are on, when push
comes to shove.

But you're exactly right, that this is an anomalous aspect of Americas
unique path to total Oligarchy.

[grasswire]

81. a gun grab could follow a false flag attack

....but many Americans will not fall for that, even so.

[rhett o rick]

146. The answer is two fold. "Can it be a true police state whil citizenry are armed?"

Yes. The arms the citizens have do not pose a threat. After Kitrina, the National Guard went door to door and confiscated guns. The gun holders wet their pants at the sight of heavily armed men aiming automatic weapons at their faces. One little old lady objected and they ended up dragging her out of her house by her heels.

Secondly, the Oligarch Rulers view arms in the hands of the Right Wing as an asset. IMO if there is a citizen uprising it won't be the RW and the Left Wing joining together. What will happen IMO is the RW will blame the Left and there will be a civil war orchestrated by the Oligarchs. The Oligarchs know they can take away all the guns whenever they want.

[TransitJohn]

75. They've criminalized normal childhood play.

Kids can't even walk to the park and play anymore.

[woo me with science]

80. Yes, a police state is being constructed around us:

Apologies for repeating this post, but I think it's relevant here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, a police state is being constructed around us. And yes, it's used to further political goals...
http://election.democraticunderground.com/?com=edit&forum=1002&thread=5914695&pid=5915944

...and defend our corporate oligarchy and its corruption. It's a corporate-authoritarian state being very carefully and deliberately constructed around us.

All the indignant denials take the same form:

There's no Hitler, we're not being burned alive in ovens, or we're still typing on the internet, or we aren't being lined up in the streets and shot (well, that one's certainly debatable, isn't it...).

As though the corporate owners of the United States of America, who rely on its reputation as the beacon of freedom and democracy in the world, can't find more effective and less politically damaging means to make sure dissent never materializes into anything seriously threatening to the PTB.

Psst. Our president has a "Kill List." And indefinite detention. And a surveillance state. And an entire secret government, secret laws and secret courts, operating alongside the one we are taught about in school. And all it takes to become part of that is for someone to invoke the word, "terrorism" and relate it to you.

"But that's a high bar!" all the sensible woodchucks will protest. "I TRUST my president! And it's only for TERRORISTS!"

Really? And do we trust the next one?

Actually, we're all being spied on. And "terrorism" is being invoked as a weapon against political dissent.

Report Details How Counter Terrorism Apparatus Was Used to Monitor Occupy Movement Nationwide
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12527647

Whoop, There It Is... 'Evidence Homeland Security Coordinated Occupy Crackdown' -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002462465

ACLU discovers FBI is labeling peace activists as 'potential terrorists'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4500788

And the most sinister aspect of all of this is the fact that the language of terrorism and espionage is being actively expanded to include whatever citizens or groups the corporatists consider to be irritants: political enemies, protesters, even journalists.

Protestors against Energy Company charged with terrorism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024175848

Mission Creep: When Everything is Terrorism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023279560

US Uses Espionage Act To Convict Manning Using Words Added In 1990: "with a computer"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023375845

Fed Court: Just changed interpretation of Espionage Act to cover leaks that are NOT Harmful To USA
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023365713

NY Times: White House Uses Espionage Act to Silence Employees, Press
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101616764

Obama Has Charged More Under Espionage Act Than All Other Presidents Combined
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023080388

If you are a One Percenter trying to effectively use the government you have purchased to manage unpleasant press about what you are doing, what do you do? Well, one tactic might be to try to get the government into the business of deciding who is a journalist. That way you can claim to establish "protections" for whistleblowers, when what you are actually doing is creating categories through which you can exclude from protection those you don't want to protect.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023708417
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4976955
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4976082
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4976955

Yeah, journalism isn't doing too well in this country. One might say it is being murdered. There's a reason it's supposed to be protected by the First Amendment. That reason is not compatible with increasingly totalitarian corporate control.

Petition Calls On Obama Stop Intimidation Of Journalists And Whistleblowers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025509395

Why Is President Obama Keeping a Journalist in Prison in Yemen
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023300531

James Clapper Calls Journalists "Criminal Accomplices" -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017174990

Reporters without Borders: 'Security interests threaten press freedom'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11333723

US Plummets In Press Freedom Rankings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024487392

Obama's escalating war on Freedom of the Press
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023314296

Risen Case: War on Journalism coming to a head
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101699216

Government Surveillance Is Crippling Press Freedoms, Report Shows
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023902153

So....you shut up the journalists.

And you shut up the protesters.

Who else do you need to shut up?

Ah....all the people who work for the government, many of whom can be assumed to still have consciences and thus be potentially dangerous to the corporate coup of democracy. How do you handle them?

Well, you can fire them. See, it's *useful* for the government of an ostensibly free nation to have highly visible groups engaged in protest...like the Black Panthers, etc....and not to deny them employment or do anything serious to them. It gives the illusion of freedom. But look what we learned of recently, about how firings happen at the Federal Reserve:

The Secret Goldman Sachs Tapes
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025587384

But you can also wage legal war against their power to function as whistleblowers. And you assault the unions that protect them.

The Obama administration/DOJ war on whistleblowers, federal unions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5586389

You can institute draconian snitch rules to intimidate those who might be thinking about whistleblowing:

President's 'rat out your co-worker' plan unlikely to work, experts say
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023214675

And you claim the right to spy on them even at home.

You let the dissent flourish, as long as it's safe dissent. But you take care of the stuff that has the potential to be truly threatening. Most importantly, you make a vicious example of those who carry through with revealing corruption:

Daniel Ellsburg: Snowden would not get a fair trial today, was right to flee US
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11784497
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023198130

Bradley Manning: top US legal scholars voice outrage at torture
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x871563

That includes those who whistleblow on financial institutions, not just the government. Since you're not prosecuting the banking criminals, you have plenty of time to send up a guy who tried to identify them:

Bradley Birkenfeld, UBS Whistleblower, Finds Himself in Federal Prison
http://www.cnbc.com//id/41257962

It's a delicate line to walk, all this intimidation while still claiming to be the beacon of freedom for the world. But the intimidation is necessary, because people are starting to catch on.

No, nobody has sent the jackboots to line up the protesters in front of everyone and methodically kill them. But we're seeing the next best thing.

Militarizing the hell out of the police departments. That way it's blamed on some "programs"....but it sends a clear psychological message to the upstarts.

Stopping police militarization: Once again, the solution requires confronting corporate politicians.
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10025416709

Federal grants drive the militarization of police departments in America.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025383806

And then you get this:


And this:


And this:


Quite a few of the Occupy violence pics I used to use regularly now I cannot find anywhere on the internet; if I could, I'd put them here, too. The elderly woman tear-gassed, the mobs of jackbooted storm troopers surrounding a few people on a blanket...

And, meanwhile, out in the community, the militarized police are starting to terrorize ordinary citizens, mostly the impoverished and voiceless ones. But the corporate-controlled federal government keeps sending the hardware and the storm trooper uniforms, even encouraging it with grants, and they refuse to keep records on how many citizens have been murdered. How many were there this week?

"What I've Learned from Two Years Collecting Data on Police Killings...
...I'm convinced to my core: The lack of such a database is intentional."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025429276

Twenty-Three People Killed by American Police in the Span of One Week
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025593137

We're all suspects, potential terrorists now. and the mechanisms are in place to ensure that any dissent that begins to bubble up can be handled and eliminated before it materializes in any serious way.

The truth is that we don't know what dissent may have already been cut off at the root, because of the elaborate, secret, unaccountable system that has been put into place. We know that the president has sought the power to lie in response to Freedom of Information requests. We know that data collected from NSA spying has been used to imprison Americans using false evidence trails. We know that the CIA can spy on the Senate Intelligence Committee with impunity and nothing is done about it, and that Clapper can lie to Congress and the Department of Justice can lie to the Supreme Court about spying and nothing is done. These are just the things we know.

DEA Manuals Show Feds Use NSA Spy Data, Train Cops to Construct False Chains of Evidence
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4507611

Obama Admin Seeks Permission TO LIE In Response To Freedom of Information Requests - Even To The COURTS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2185303

DOJ lied to Supreme Court about domestic surveillance
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140514/06214727229/doj-still-trying-to-hide-fact-it-flat-out-lied-to-supreme-court-about-domestic-surveillance.shtml

The sensible woodchucks keep telling us that someone has to be actively involved in VERY SERIOUS TERRORISM against the United States of America in order for our government to start throwing *that* word around, or showing an interest in us. But we are all surveilled, and the methods for it keep expanding. If you think about it, it's GOOD for corporate control to have people posting dissent on the internet. It helps you know whom to watch. Voiced dissent is USEFUL as long as it doesn't lead to anything...you know, serious. Our corporate government is keeping an eye on us.

OKC protestors slapped with terrorism charges
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024175848

A Nation of "Suspects"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5011487
http://www.truth-out.org/nation-suspects/1314810046

American Protesters Declared Enemy for Weapons Testing Purposes; Rules of Engagement
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2132808#2139011

DoD Training Manual: Protests are "Low-Level Terrorism"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/100227662

Ridiculous FBI list: You might be a domestic terrorist if...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1790765

Doctors asked to identify potential terrorists under government plans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1261120&mesg_id=1261120

Do You Like Online Privacy? You May Be a Terrorist
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002257966

Top US counterterrorism official: drone critics are Al Qaeda enablers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002279862

"Arrogant complaining about airport security is one indicator Transportation Security Administration officers consider when looking for possible criminals and terrorists"
http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/04/15/tsa.screeners.complain/

N.S.A. Examines Social Networks of U.S. Citizens (Decision Made In Secret, in 2010)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014605329

Now, tell me.

Why would the corporatists who have purchased into our government and rely on its reputation as the beacon of freedom and democracy for the world, use such heavy-handed and politically damaging tactics as shutting down the internet or ostentatiously lining up protesters to shoot them in the streets, when they have already put into place and legalized this elegant system to control dissent?

Yeah, I'm typing on the internet. That PROVES we're free.

------------------------------------------------------------------


Thank you for this important OP.

[99th_Monkey]

92. And thank YOU.

for this post.

I can't seem to be able to bookmark it for some reason. Is it only OPs that can be bookmarked?

Thanks again

[Oilwellian]

120. You have outdone yourself, Woo

Outstanding! Bookmarking.

[GliderGuider]

130. Bravo! A brilliant post, on a supremely important thread! nt

[CrispyQ]

139. Outstanding post.

The truth is that we don't know what dissent may have already been cut off at the root, because of the elaborate, secret, unaccountable system that has been put into place. We know that the president has sought the power to lie in response to Freedom of Information requests. We know that data collected from NSA spying has been used to imprison Americans using false evidence trails. We know that the CIA can spy on the Senate Intelligence Committee with impunity and nothing is done about it, and that Clapper can lie to Congress and the Department of Justice can lie to the Supreme Court about spying and nothing is done. These are just the things we know.

[obxhead]

84. Wait a minute

We have the bestest most liberal POTUS ever!

Or so I've been told through the thousands of worship threads on this site.

Hell, some are so f'in proud they post pictures of the new swag they've ordered to proclaim their hero worship.

[99th_Monkey]

88. I don't necessarily blame Obama

as I said in OP, Lord only knows what kind of threats he and his family
are subjected to on a regular basis. (see the Zapruder Film)

Yet I have noticed the worship thing, from same peeps who accuse me
of hero-worship because I respect what Snowden & Greenwald are
doing to expose stuff we were NOT supposed to see.

[Scuba]

89. Of course we're living in a police state, and only fools and enabler deny it.

[guillaumeb]

90. Read the responses, your post is absolutely spot on but...

The United States was never intended by the Founders to be a true democracy. Athens was not a true democracy. The US Revolution was one group of rich educated people replacing another group of rich educated people. But that changed because of common citizens in action.

That said, there have always been social justice movements in this country. In the 19th Century the Abolitionist movement completely reframed the debate on chattel slavery. The resultant civil war ended slavery de jure if not in practice. The fight against slavery is still going, but the progress is undeniable.

In the 1870's onward, the Knights of Labor, International Workers of the World, CIO and AFL changed the debate on the rights of workers. Not an easy process, the fight is still going on, capitalists still make war upon workers, but minds were changed.

In the early 20th Century Suffragists changed the debate on female suffrage. Are women still discriminated against? Of course, but progress has been made.

Yes the Koch brothers and assorted fascist billionaires are attempting to reverse every bit of social progress that has been made, but they are aided by an apathetic citizenry that will not participate in the electoral process. And please do not tell me that both parties are the same. With rare exceptions politicians do not lead, they are pushed by a motivated citizenry. 34% participation in the 2014 election is the real reason there is a Republican majority in the Senate.

[99th_Monkey]

99. Labor history is a really fascinating subject

I got obsessed with it during graduate school. Did you
know that the entire labor movement prior to 1900 was
pretty much focused on worker-ownership (not collective
bargaining).

And yes, we've been in this struggle for a long time.

I think there was a moment in US history, during the Eisenhower
and JFK years where the CIA and the MIC were really at risk of
being taken apart, piece by piece by an aware citizenry.

We saw how that worked out, JFK's murder was a major
turning point, of no return apparently. The Dark Side has
been carefully and deliberately making sure they never get
seriously challenged again, and consolidating that power via
Koch Bros. Citizens United, and now TPP.

Anyways, thanks for your post.

[hunter]

93. Oh please, here in the U.S.A....

...we are free to say anything we like so long as we are ineffectual.

[99th_Monkey]

96. Yes. And when we are NOT ineffectual (see OWS, Ferguson)

we are beaten and arrested.

[whereisjustice]

117. +1

[PosterChild]

104. people of color have been criminalzed? Huh? (nt)

[99th_Monkey]

106. Have you heard of "Driving while black"?

Or as in the case of Michael Brown, summarily executed for Walking-while-black.

[PosterChild]

105. investigative journalists have beeen criminalized?

Like who? Snowden isn't a journalist and neithe Greenwald nor the washington post been prosecuted . Eric holder did not seek to compel testimony in the most recent spy case. and in any event, compelling testimony (which is a duty in a civil society ) is not criminalization.

[99th_Monkey]

108. Just to name a few.

Judith Miller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Miller

James Risen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Risen

And they were the "lucky" ones, Michael Hastings and Aaron Swartz weren't so lucky.
Hastings was killed on the eve of a breaking a big story exposing corruption in the Pentagon,
and Swartz was "suicided".
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/19/us-usa-journalist-carcrash-idUSBRE95I04520130619
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz

Snowden, while not a journalist, would be jailed for his role in exposing US gov't lies and illegal spying.

Greenwald is generally regarded as a journalist, and is at risk of being jailed for his role in Snowden revelations.

Julian Aasange (remember him) is still in hiding in Equadorian embassy in UK

We can quibble about who's a 'real' journalist or not, but the pattern is pretty clear.
Exposing official corruption is a risky, sometimes deadly, profession.

[PosterChild]

163. Judith Miller....

... it is every citizen's duty to provide testimony in court when required to, either to exonerate an innocent defendant or to convict a guilty one. Refusal to do so is contempt of court, not "journalism" and punishment for contempt of court is not the "criminalization" of journalism.

James Risen....

Subpoenaed to give testimony in a criminal case, he challenged the subpoena and, eventually, lost on appeal to the supreme court. Spent no time in jail (according to the wiki article) and has not been compelled to testify. Once again, it is every citizen's duty to provide testimony in court when required to, either to exonerate an innocent defendant or to convict a guilty one. Refusal to do so is contempt of court, not "journalism" and punishment for contempt of court is not the "criminizlization" of journalism.

Aaron Swartz....

Huh? This guy? Committed suicide after being threatened with prosecution for breaking and entering? Has nothing to do with journalism, let along the "criminalization" of journalism". This is just breaking and entering. And stealing. As far as being "suicided", you might want to pursue that in the "Offbeat - Creative Speculation" group, where this sort of cheap innuendo belongs.

Michael Hastings....

More cheap innuendo. As before, belongs in the "Offbeat - Creative Speculation" group.


Greenwald...

In October 2014, around the same time that Greenwald dropped his first NSA scoop, Attorney General Eric Holder, speaking at a Washington, D.C. event, said this: “[T]he [Justice] Department has not prosecuted, and for as long as I’m attorney general of the United States, will not prosecute any reporter for doing his or her job.”

Snowden....

Snowden is not a journalist like Greenwald his case is very different different In the August 2006 opinion of U.S. District Court Judge T.S. Ellis III, in an espionage case "The first class consists of persons who have access to the information by virtue of their official position. These people are most often government employees or military personnel with access to classified information, or defense contractors with access to classified information, and are often bound by contractual agreements whereby they agree not to disclose classified information. As such, they are in a position of trust with the government. The second class of persons are those who have no employment or contractual relationship with the government, and therefore have not exploited a relationship of trust to obtain the national defense information they are charged with disclosing, but instead generally obtained the information from one who has violated such a trust."

[cui bono]

109. And it happened under BOTH parties.

Anyone who thinks the Dem Party isn't complicit in this needs to wake up.

[99th_Monkey]

110. Sshh.

We're not supposed to notice when Democrats do it.

[whereisjustice]

116. And we're Ready for Hillary to save the rich...

Democratic Party is so out of phase, they think it's 1980 and Reaganomics is gonna be the next big thing.

[demigoddess]

111. K&R

[daredtowork]

114. What bugs me the most

is how proposed solutions aren't allowed to tick off those who currently hold power - all change has to occur on THEIR terms. Thus we must continue to suck up to those who currently hold power and the status quo never changes. There can be no hope or change under those circumstances.

[whereisjustice]

115. Excellent post, the rich are funding a police state to stifle dissent as they steal

every last fucking thing we own together as a nation and sell it to Asia for pennies on the dollar.

[99th_Monkey]

121. Thank you.

Thanks for weighing in. As you can see, I've inadvertently stirred up a shit-storm
of police state deniers. wtf. who knew?

[Drunken Irishman]

118. The fact this post stays up, and DU actually exists, speaks against the idea of a police state.

It's interesting how white, established liberals so easily diminish the true problems in society by woefully inflating their own problems. There's a joke about a first world problems or white girl problems - and this fits it. In a true police state, if you said what you said, you, your family and maybe even anyone who's ever associated with you, would either be killed or jailed - if not sent off to a labor camp to spend the rest of your life.

My guess is that the biggest problem you faced today is what shirt to wear.

Not a dog on you at all - but reality. It's so easy for liberals living in the godawful United States to proclaim how shitty of a country we are. We're a third world nation! We're a police state! We're on the path to Nazi Germany! We have a 21st Century gestapo!

It's kind of offensive when you think about it and undermines the real atrocities that plague true police states.

Are we 100% free? No - but this idea we always were is a farce. Just look at Kent State in the 1970s or the jailings of civil rights protesters in the 1950s and 60s.

But it doesn't make us a police state.

[99th_Monkey]

124. Yes DU exists ... Until it doesn't

Just because a dedicated group of left-leaning Democrats have managed to create and maintain a forum
for self-governed discussion of political & social issues without yet getting shut down
or drummed out of existence by tyrannical forces ... this somehow proves what again?

Do you think that just because "DU still exists" (until it doesn't), that this somehow completely invalidates
or renders irrelevant all the abuses, the invasive & unconstitutional surveillance, the police brutality and killer-cops,
the torturers walking free, daily abuse and pubic executions of black males for no real reason except the color of
their skin, etc. etc. ... really?

There's more of your post I want to respond to also, but need to post this now.

[Drunken Irishman]

125. Yes. I think it invalidates your point.

Your point wasn't that the U.S. may become a police state - your post specifically said it was a police state. That's not how it works.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

119. Armed officers appearing at people's residences over building code enforcement

The DA probably got a tip that someone's water heater wasn't up to code and then sent armed officers with bullet proof vests and demand entry at the home without a warrant?

Los Angeles County waging a war against poor people out in the desert (who would otherwise probably be homeless) for building code violations and evicting them despite the fact they are dozens of miles from the nearest neighbor and they own the plot of land.

[defacto7]

122. It is exactly what you suspect.

Welcome to hell.

[BeanMusical]

123. Kick and R.

Thank you, this thread is very informative.

[blackbart99]

126. This is why we need to fight back by....

Turning the surveillance back on them.
My wife has a dash cam...because she kept getting pulled over for nothing.(5 times in 4 weeks)
Our phone cameras are the best. When something is going down we need to film it.
If one person is filming from 10 ft. away we need back-up at 20ft. and 50ft. and so on.
When they take the first persons phone we have that on film too.
It's up to us to try and keep the police honest. They won't willingly wear body cameras
so we must.

Shine the light on them....sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Take our country back one bad cop at time.............

[Enthusiast]

127. K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations!

Sorry, 99th_Monkey, I can't talk you down. It appears that some long term plan was put into motion some time ago.

The only way I would disagree is that I do not believe the President is an innocent victim in all this as you do.

[Madmiddle]

136. We have

like 545 lawmakers, against 275,000,000 citizens, that don't have to stand by and watch this happen. A set of balls would end corporate and government corruption over night.

[merrily]

142. A slowly boiled frog doesn't get it until he's dead, at which point, he's oblivious.

So, he never gets it.

The pain of being a slowly betrayed human is that, at some point, you finally wake the fuck up, but it's probably too late to reverse the tide.

We have to try, though. I simply cannot not try.

[Javaman]

148. I would only correct one thing...

we are much more than 10 years to late. more like 30.

[grasswire]

152. it was OK City that really opened my eyes.

I asked some savvy people then, how long til shit hits fan? Ten years, they thought.

[grasswire]

151. also criminalized are certain aspects of family law

aspects that have come about because of income inequality and the recession.

I'm specifically thinking of the non-custodial parent who falls behind in ordered support because of economic conditions and is then criminalized and jailed. The family court system makes money off this situation. The children suffer. The parent is subject to continued criminalization and marginalization. Better and cheaper solutions exist aside from criminalization.

[99th_Monkey]

157. Thanks for adding that to the mix

It is telling, and certainly 'fits the narrative', so to speak.

[woo me with science]

164. kick

[woo me with science]

165. kick

[raouldukelives]

167. K&R

I'd like to say you are wrong. Couple of decades ago I may have even argued against you.
But at every juncture along the way Wall St and its conscience lacking investors have stymied attempts at self-determination for struggling people across the globe. They have done an excellent job of funding & helping form exactly the types of governments they desire to increase corporate rape & pillage of the worlds natural resources and the worlds people for short term profits.
There is nothing that causes them to blink. Brutal dictators, mass starvation, death squads, drug cartels, terrorists, ocean acidification and even climate change. They literally couldn't care less.
Now they have taken all they have learned and are using it against us. Quite naturally. We are, after all, just another resource pool in the eyes of multinational corporations and the people who support them.

[woo me with science]

168. kick

[Blue_Tires]

169. You might want to re-think your "investigative journalists" with the benefit of hindsight