If someone tells you "I'm not an Anti-Vaxxer, but"....................................

[trumad]

Thy're an Anti-Vaxxer.

Nuff said!

[Shrike47]

1. Yup. And they can't offer any evidence to support that 'feeling' they have that vacs are bad.

They just know.

[Chemisse]

2. Very little in life is all good or all bad.

I've always thought that the ability to understand nuanced ideas is what separates us from the more simple-minded Republicans.

This attitude presented by this OP - so prevalent at DU lately - makes me question that assumption.

Nevertheless, in what will clearly be a fool's errand, I will say:

I am not an anti-vaxxer, BUT:

I will not brainlessly endorse any new vaccine without knowing something about its risks and benefits (and I point to the Hepatitis B shot for newborns as an example of one that gives me pause). I think kids should be vaccinated with the recommended schedule of shots in order to attend school or day care, but I am comfortable with mandating something like the flu shots.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

4. You mean the HepB vaccine that's been around since th 90s?

The one that helped to stop the spread of HepB?

Why does it give you pause? It's been in use for over 20 years.

[Chemisse]

7. I think it's fine, if needed.

I just don't think a one day old infant with no risk factors needs to be getting this, at this time.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

10. It is needed.

HepB is highly contagious. Between 800,000 and 1.4 million people are infected with the disease in the US. 30-40% of those were acquired at birth. Hence, they vaccinate at birth. Since vaccination started in the 1990s, the rate of new infection is down 90%.

Oh, and further reading, I found the vaccine has been around since 1981, but wasn't added to the vaccine schedule until 1991. It's not a "new' vaccine by any stretch.

[Chemisse]

11. It's new to the schedule.

And it's great for those whose infants are at risk for one reason or another. It's also great for those of us who find ourselves at risk.

In fact, I think it might be a good idea for people to get the vaccination as part of the routine, perhaps in their early teens, before entering an age of higher risk.

I am just uncomfortable with it being given to a newborn if there is no risk factor. I think that is a choice parents should have the right to make, without being labeled 'anti-vaxxers' and being subjected to being labeled 'idiots' and sent off to anti-vax concentration camps (all suggested here on DU).

[Dr Hobbitstein]

12. 1991 was 24 years ago.

That's not new. 30-40% of new cases happened at birth and just after. That's an established risk. That's why it was added to the schedule.

And parents should have NO rights to choose on vaccinations. That's a social contract. You want to live in this nation? Vaccinate. Unless you have an underlying medical condition that prohibits it.

[Chemisse]

18. LOL - I guess when you are as old as I am, 1991 doesn't seem so long ago.

To me, new to the schedule means it wasn't around for MY babies.

Anyway, if I were a young mother right now, I would say no to hepatitis B for my infant, because I KNOW I don't have it, so could not have passed it along. Since the chance that my baby could contract this is ZERO, why would I subject her to the risks of the vaccine? Bad effects are rare, but they are not zero.

With the other vaccines, the risks of the disease itself far outweighs the risk of the vaccination. And that would be true of this one as well, BUT ONLY IF the infant had any risk factors.

This is why I say we need a little nuance on the subject.

On edit - deleted the quote I had since that link was NOT from the CDC (I got there from the CDC website, so mistakenly thought I was still on it)!

So I went back and found this:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/hepb.html#schedule

[Dr Hobbitstein]

23. Once again, HepB was a big problem until the vaccine happened.

Everyone was at risk. Now, the risk is less BECAUSE of the vaccine. That is no reason to stop vaccinating, however.

You can ignore the data all you want, but in the end you're either and anti-vaxxer, or an apologist for the nutters.

[Chemisse]

29. Which demonstrates my original point exactly. Thanks. n/t

[Dr Hobbitstein]

30. Your original point is that HepB vax isn't needed.

I demonstrated that it is. Are you firing on all 8 cylinders?

[Chemisse]

32. Perhaps you could scroll up a bit.

I'm not sure how many cylinders YOU were allotted, but I imagine you can manage that anyway.

[Logical]

26. LOL, at one time all of them were new! nt

[Hassin Bin Sober]

39. The risk of someone contracting chronic hepatitis after hepatitis B is 90% is acquired after age 2

The risk is 10% before age 2.

I had a friend tell me about his experience with hep B. I ran, not walked, to my doc to get vaccinated.

Science says get it before age two. Why not set it and forget it?

[phil89]

31. What are you basing this opinion on?

Science? Feelings? Why do you think you know better than professionals, assuming you are not a medical professional? This kind of thinking is not helpful.

[Chemisse]

33. I am basing this on my very strong feelings

About the validity of science.

According to the CDC, there is a risk of serious reactions, although they are rare.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/hepb.html#schedule

If an infant has no risk factors, it makes sense to me to wait until he/she is 10 or 12 to get this series of shots. There is a schedule available at that site for adolescent hepatitis B vaccinations.

Oh, and please use science - not emotions - if you would like to criticize my personal stance on this particular vaccine offering.

[pipoman]

13. I might add the "swine flu" vaccine of 1976 that was all the rage

As another example of why we should be weighing risk/benefit. .

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak

[Chemisse]

16. Ahhh, I had forgotten about that.

If I remember correctly, the government gave the vaccine manufacturers complete immunity from lawsuits as part of the agreement to make the vaccine very quickly. It was a big gamble.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

22. 500 claims of GBS.

No scientific link after study by the CDC.

Although, one study says a rare side effect of one case per million. All that in your link. The benefit is much higher than the risk.

[pipoman]

38. Except there really was no risk in this case...

[HockeyMom]

3. Anti Wellness/Preventative Care

Vaccinations are just a very small part of the complete package.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

5. Preventative care is a good thing...

Why do you think it's a bad thing? It's not anti-wellness. Preventative care is PRO wellness.

[msanthrope]

19. Library open? nt

[Dr Hobbitstein]

24. Damnit!

I always miss LG's appearances.

[msanthrope]

27. Click early on a vaccine thread. Trust me. nt

[Chemisse]

34. Haha! Me too.

After all these years, I've never had a direct sighting.

[Humanist_Activist]

9. Being pro-vaccination is being pro-wellness/preventative care...

hell, there's a reason why all Obamacare compliant plans offer vaccinations for free.

[HockeyMom]

14. I said that vaccination is a part of the

complete package of wellness/preventative care and included in Obamacare plans and Medicare. I will take a pass on all of it, not just the free vaccinations.

Went through an employer Wellness Program. That was enough to send me over the edge. You are in non compliance for bla, bla, bla. Nasty emails up the whazoo. Paying the higher premium for non compliance was not the issue. I did not want to participate. Even after I quit, they still kept mailing me letters about not signing up for Cobra. Big Brother is watching you.

At least Medicare leaves me alone with all that Wellness stuff. Don't even have to get my own personal doctor or "health coach". Not bothering me with non compliance letters/emails for my free wellness exams,free flu shots, or free colonoscrophies.

Maybe we have to have health insurance now under the law but there is no mandatory compliance for USING it.

[NuclearDem]

21. "Big Brother is watching you"?

For enrolling you in a wellness program and helping you to keep some health insurance after you leave a job?

At least you beat their game before they injected you with the nanobots.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

6. And they're already here defending their nuttery. n/t

[HockeyMom]

15. I am not the parent of a young child

I don't think you understand the scope of this.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6305a4.htm
http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/5/7983509/adult-vaccination-rates-in-the-us-are-pretty-low

If you take away the kids from their parents and vaccinate them, eventually they will grown into adults who need boosters. Don't think these future adults will resent this? There are some whose parents did not vaccinate THEM. There are OLD PEOPLE who agree. It spans generations.

I am simply pointing this out to you because I think you cannot see the forest (entire population) for the trees (children).

The concept of Herd Immunity is unworkable without adult consent to vaccination. Childhood immunization alone won't give Herd Immunity.

You need to understand this. Simply information on my part. They are also DEMOCRATS. Surprised? I was at first also. They are not all who you think they are. Republicans are just jumping on the bandwagon to get votes, besides opposing Obama. It isn't a Democrat versus Republican movement.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

25. You are an anti-vax nutter.

And apparently, you specialize in word salad and non sequiturs.

[Chemisse]

36. Ideally, the children will all be vaccinated.

And then get boosters as adults.

There is no reason why children should be abducted and vaccinated. Parents will be happy to get these inoculations for their kids once or if they realize how deadly the alternatives can be.

I suspect the anti-vax pendulum swing will start to swing back toward the middle soon, if it hasn't already started.

[HockeyMom]

40. You cannot force Herd Immunity on ADULTS

You cannot achieve this soley with childhood immunization. I don't you understand the bigger issue on this. These people don't vaccinate their children. Do you think they are vaccinating THEMSELVES?

You cannot see the forest (entire population) for the trees (children).

[steve2470]

8. All these vaccine discussions need to go to Creative Speculation

I'd like to see them banned, but, as I told Skinner, I'll settle for CS.

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. tru Story

[Gothmog]

28. Agreed

Anit-vaxxers are sad and sick people who are in denial

[obxhead]

35. My cousin will start sentences with "I'm not a racist, but"

I always k ow a real fucking doozy is about to come falling out of her head.

[LWolf]

37. I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but

I personally find the current polarized frenzy to be ludicrous.

It's not the simplified black and white that the simple would like it to be. Very, very few issues are.

When DUers tell someone who refuses a small pox vaccination for their child that:

their child ought to be isolated from the general public: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026191344#post6

that his choice affects everyone and will spread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026191344#post55

that he's potentially putting others at risk, making him despicable, selfish, and ignorant: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026191344#post87

when routinely vaccinating for smallpox ended in the U.S. in 1972, just WHO is ignorant?

When politicians decide to make vaccinations an issue, and the masses follow along obediently, lining up to battle it out because a small fraction of people want to refuse vaccinations, despite the fact that all 50 states require vaccinations for children entering public schools...while shoving the much larger problem of poverty, and much more frequent other categories of child neglect and abuse under the rug, I'll damned well say:

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but if you are so damned concerned, where is your outrage and energy addressing those other much more frequent and widespread neglects and abuses? Refusing vaccinations is just one. Is it that neglect and abuse aren't an issue until they spread to others? Is that it?


FYI: I'VE HAD ALL MY VACCINATIONS, ALL MY LIFE. INCLUDING THE CHILDHOOD SMALLPOX VACCINATION. SO DID MY CHILDREN AND MY GRANDSON.