Pope Says It's OK to Spank Kids, if Their Dignity Is Kept

[trotsky]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/02/05/world/europe/ap-eu-rel-vatican-spanking-kids.html

Francis outlined the traits of a good father: one who forgives but is able to "correct with firmness" while not discouraging the child.

"One time, I heard a father in a meeting with married couples say 'I sometimes have to smack my children a bit, but never in the face so as to not humiliate them,'" Francis said.

"How beautiful!" Francis remarked. "He knows the sense of dignity! He has to punish them but does it justly and moves on."

...

The Catholic Church's position on corporal punishment came under sharp criticism last year during a grilling by members of a U.N. human rights committee monitoring implementation of the U.N. treaty on the rights of the child.

[marym625]

1. liking him less and less.

And I wasn't one that was thrilled with him in the first place

[dissentient]

2. I agree, as long as there a fine line kept between spanking and child abuse

I think we have so many spoiled kids in our society today, and part of that is many parents no longer seem interested in disciplining their children, along with giving them anything they want or ask for, and never saying the word, "No".

I have seen the result of what spoiling a child can do, and it is not pretty what happens, when they get older. It is not their fault that they grow up to become arrogant and demanding and spoiled, where they feel entitled to whatever they want, and then throw a temper tantrum if they don't get their way.

That said, of course there has to be a fine line always kept between potentially committing child abuse, and spanking a child on occasion. Things like that blood should never be drawn, never a closed hand used, and it should not be used as a punishment very often.

[Cleita]

5. Do kids get spoiled like over ripe fruit?

Frankly in my experience the brattiest kids seemed to be disciplined and spanked a lot. I think it brings out the worst in them. The meanest nun I had in grade school always had the most unruly class in the school the whole time I went there. She actually inspired some of the brattiest kids to challenge her every chance they got. Yet, this was the same class I had in the grade before and the grade after we had to be in her class, and we were much nicer when she wasn't our teacher. This is only my experience and my opinion. You may disagree if you like.

[dissentient]

7. All I know is what I have observed and

personal experience. I have a friend who has kids and he disciplines them, so they know what is permitted, and what is not. They are very respectful children, by and large, and are not wild and obnoxious like other kids I have seen.

[Brickbat]

11. Is it respect or fear?

How can you tell? How does he discipline them? Does he hit them when you're there?

[dissentient]

16. By using his authority as their father

In my presence, it is by using a stern word, and using his authority as a father figure. I don't think he spanks them that often, only as a last resort, and in private.

[Brickbat]

22. Do you think he'll still spank them when they're bigger than he is?

I mean, he'll still be the father figure.

[dissentient]

23. Nope

That would be very weird. Spanking should only be done to young children. If I had to guess what a good cut-off age would be, oh, maybe ages 9-12, somewhere in there. That is off the top of my head.

[Brickbat]

24. Why that age?

[dissentient]

25. It just seems like a good age range before kids become teens

By the time they are teen-agers I don't think spanking is appropriate. They should know better by then, and have discipline and control,up to a point, anyhow.

[Brickbat]

43. When you say "appropriate," what makes it "inappropriate" when they are teens?

What if they don't "know better" by then? Wouldn't spanking help? Or does that mean spanking didn't help, when they were children?

[Brickbat]

44. When you say "appropriate," what makes it "inappropriate" when they are teens?

What if they don't "know better" by then? Wouldn't spanking help? Or does that mean spanking didn't help, when they were children?

[LiberalAndProud]

36. You have a friend who has kids.

If that is the extent of your expertize, pardon me while I discard your opinion. Like the pope, you have no clue.

[Jefferson23]

9. Ugh. n/t

[Brickbat]

10. Where is that line? Could you define "very often?" Should they be spanked on the ass, on the face,

on the arms, on the bottoms of the feet? The stomach? The knees? What part of the body is most effective?

Is there an age they shouldn't be spanked past? Why or why not? If the kids grow up to be spoiled and arrogant, maybe we should spank them as adults. If they're arrogant at work, their boss could spank them. If that doesn't work, maybe the HR lady could spank them. Maybe parents should spank their adult children if their adult children misbehave.

Can you provide some numbers on how "many spoiled kids there are in our society today," and how that corresponds to spanking?

[dissentient]

15. so many questions

I meant traditional spanking, on the bottom.

I don't think adults should be spanked, unless they are into that sort of thing, and want it done voluntarily.

I can't provide hard numbers, it is based on my observations and experience from going to shopping malls, taking public transit, and so on.

[Brickbat]

21. Maybe spanking on the stomach is even more effective and we don't even know it.

Maybe people should try that! Hitting different parts of the body might produce different results, don't you think?

I don't think adults should be spanked, unless they are into that sort of thing, and want it done voluntarily.

If hitting modifies behavior effectively, why shouldn't we do it to adults?

I can't provide hard numbers, it is based on my observations and experience from going to shopping malls, taking public transit, and so on.

How do you know that the kids you see who misbehave in public aren't spanked at home?

[niyad]

19. so do you think it is okay for parents (the father, in your posts) to send a message to

their children that it is OKAY for bigger, stronger people to hit smaller, weaker people? because THAT is the message that spanking sends.

[laundry_queen]

30. Why, in your mind, are the only choices spanking or spoiling?

Spanking is for the lazy. It is possible to discipline and raise your children well without spanking. I have VERY well behaved children - not just my opinion, that's the opinion of their teachers, coaches, friends' parents, extended family, even MY profs (had to take my youngest to class a few times - she was 5 at the time and spent 8 hours in a classroom and didn't disrupt us once).

I have never spanked them - not even once. I DID discipline them using a variety of techniques and *gasp* treating them like human beings. There are rules and boundaries in our household, and the kids are expected to follow them. It was never necessary to hit them. Never. Because I spent so much time when they were younger building a base of trust and respect that when they grew older usually all that was needed was a quick talk. But that's 'too much work' for most spankers. That was my dad. Couldn't be bothered with us. A good whack kept us in line quickly and efficiently. And it meant I have no meaningful relationship with him now and when I do think of him, it's with disgust and resentment. I'd rather have a relationship with my kids when they are adults, thanks.

[dissentient]

31. I'm glad things worked out so well for your children, but

I simply happen to think there is a widespread culture of spoiled children out there, and I have run into them often, as I am out and about quite a bit in the city.

I think the reason for it is a lack of discipline. I appreciate this is a very personal thing and subject for people, and what I think about it is my opinion, and others can disagree. That is fine, I have the live and let live philosophy, and believe every parent has the right to raise their children the way they see fit. If that means spanking, or not to spank, that is their decision.

It is something that is hard to debate or discuss, because people can get emotional about it. I think discipline is very important when it comes to children, and spanking can be a part of that. Like I said, not all the time, that actually would rob the punishment of its power, but on occasion.

If you disagree, fine, this is a very personal subject, and I don't have a problem if others don't see it my way.

[laundry_queen]

32. Do you have kids?

I'm pretty sure I'm around kids more than you have, seeing as I'm also out and about in the city as well as constantly surrounded by my 4 kids, my friends' kids, my kids' friends etc. I see no such thing. In fact, most of the kids are far better behaved than anyone I knew when I was a kid.

And it's not a personal subject, IMO. It's a subject that eventually affects society at large. With all the detrimental effects spanking has, on a larger scale it can create issues within society. So no, it's not just a 'personal' decision. Kind of like vaccination. We know what the studies show. There is a ton of information out there on alternatives to spanking. There is no good reason for spanking except laziness. None.

By the way, my parents think my kids are spoiled because I don't hit them and they are allowed to have an opinion and I listen to that opinion. In their minds, kids should be ruled over. So, if that is your view, then I can see why you think there's an epidemic of spoiled children. My parents think that, too. Even though they readily admit my kids are better behaved than my brother and I were. But, you know, I don't spank so they MUST be spoiled. Somehow.

[dissentient]

33. I can answer in this way

Both my sister and my best friend has kids, and so I have been around them and also their kids friends frequently. I happen to agree with your parents regarding all the spoiled children around. But of course, I have no idea and can't say a word about what they think of your own children, because I don't know you, and have no way to base my opinion on in those regards.

I have to say that I disagree with you, in that I think it is a personal decision, and really none of anyone else's business how parents decide to raise their kids when it comes to this topic, with the caveat that they (of course) should not abuse their children or commit any crimes like that.

I think all parents have the right to raise their children the best way they see fit, as long as they are not doing something unlawful. I'm afraid we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject, and that is ok with me.

[laundry_queen]

37. Um. No.

Take a social psychology course. The wider societal implications of physical discipline are HUGE. You can agree to disagree all you want, but the science is clear here. And making spanking illegal would solve your little 'lawful' issue.

[LiberalLoner]

39. +1

[BreakfastClub]

35. What does this mean, "fine line" as it relates to spanking and chld abuse and

why do corporal punishment proponents so often use the phrase "fine line?" Do you know what a fine line means? It means there's very little difference between two things. There's a fine line between two things means the two things are very similar and can easily cross over into the other thing. There should be a large broad THICK line between spanking a child and abusing them, but the lines are often blurred, and maybe there are no lines after all. Maybe all hitting is abuse. If you strike an adult, it is assault and you go to jail. There are no lines whatsoever in that regard, and it should be no different with children. It is pretty insane that it is totally legal to commit assault and battery on kids. I don't' care where you hit them either, head, butt, legs, arms, back, it's all assault and it all crosses the line. Nobody is made "better" by being assaulted and it should be a crime to commit battery across the board, especially on a defenseless child.

[Generic Brad]

3. There's dignity in kicking a child in the ass?

If we don't leave marks it's ok? That's the most fucked up thing I have heard this week.

[MohRokTah]

4. He had me with the talk about income inequality and the poor.

He's lost me on equal rights for all (he HATES LGBT), his hatred of women, and now this.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. That was mostly PR, his predecessor was hugely unpopular but actually wrote and talked about

income inequality, poverty and globalization much more than Francis. Published books about it. But he was snarly looking and German. The entire 'his new message about the poor' thing was a sham, it was not new, it was pushed forward to help distract from the child abuse scandals and the fact that the actual teachings of the Church are not very popular in the world.
Francis is a man who tells people not to use condoms to protect from HIV, even in Africa where that is the number one cause of death, way over a million people last year alone. It's similar to the anti vaxx thing, but thus far way more deadly. In my view that is morally depraved. Horrific. Not at all acceptable.

[Cleita]

6. This person and those of the clergy who have never been married nor

raised children shouldn't have any opinions on what they know nothing about.

[Brickbat]

8. That would involve consent.

Awkward.

[pintobean]

13. Well, I'm glad that's settled

No more DU flame wars over spanking.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Ah, yes, the go-to organziation on children and...

Never mind.

[trotsky]

18. Ooh, well done. n/t

[SunSeeker]

17. Would Jesus spank a child, Francis? nt

[niyad]

20. so the woman-hating pope photo op sticks his foot in it again, eh?

[rug]

26. "In the United States, parents can legally hit their child as long as the force is 'reasonable."

In 19 U.S. states, it's still legal for personnel in schools to practice 'paddling'."

[caraher]

27. There is a part of this that resonates with me

First, I'm not defending spanking. On balance, it appears to be be ineffective and more often harmful than helpful, even when it is not physical injurious in a serious way.

But my own experience growing up involved getting spanked by both parents. My mother gave it up, I think in part because none of us had any fear of it; I don't particularly even remember when she stopped or whether she said anything about why.

But my father... well, he gave it up too, but I did not find that to be a change for the better. Instead of a quick couple of whacks and some physical pain briefly dreaded but short-lasting, we were served lengthy, emotional inquisitions that were far more painful. My siblings and I all adjusted to this in different ways. What I learned fairly quickly was that there was a power imbalance and the outcome had nothing to do with anything I might say. So my approach was to just go with the flow, whether or not I thought his assessment of the situation was based in reality, because I just wanted to be done with the talking. My sister (1 year younger) always insisted on sticking up for her view, and spent hours and hours in tears trying to reason about this or that, never quite accepting that his mind was made up and no amount of pleading and bargaining would make a difference.

So... I agree with the pope that dignity matters. And in my experience, there were things that violated my dignity more than being hit. (But that doesn't mean there's ever a truly dignified way to beat a child, only that there can, sometimes, be more damaging alternatives.)

[uppityperson]

28. I appreciate when he breaks loose from traditional church doctrine, am very sad when he does not

[greyl]

34. I don't understand why his followers

(for want of a better word) who strongly disagree with his moral judgement still respect his position and what it supposedly stands for, at all. It's like people give him the same import as they would to a goofy substitute teacher who is behind in the actual curriculum(Doing Good With Ones Life in the Eyes of God, in the Pope's case), but lets the class have a little fun.

[trotsky]

41. What "traditional church doctrines" has he broken loose from?

He opposes reproductive choice, just like all the other popes.

He thinks homosexuality is a sin, that marriage equality is "from Satan" and that homosexual couples should not be able to adopt. Again, like all the other popes.

He thinks equal rights for women is "off the table," just like all the other popes.

So where exactly is he different?

[phil89]

29. Shouldn't we be following what

peer reviewed, empirical evidence indicates about this? As opposed to a religious leader? Bizarre that people would listen to such a man.

[Jamastiene]

38. There is no dignity is searching for the branch that is going to be smacking

the backs of your legs and behind. I still don't see how smacking a kid teaches them the why, where, when, what or how of the corrective measure. It seems smarter to explain to the kid. Maybe I was a different sort of kid, but spanking never worked on me. My mother finally had to start doing other things to discipline me. Those other methods worked. I have also know plenty of people who talk about how they were spanked almost daily growing up and twice on Sundays. They were still the meanest little shits in the neighborhood. They knew they'd get smacked around. So, they did whatever they wanted.

The problem with this advice is that there are areas in this country and in the world where parenting is seen as an exercise is finding new and different ways to torture kids. Once, in my hometown, there was an article in the paper about how proud the parents were for locking their kid outside on a night that was below 32 degrees, for wetting the bed, and waking up to find the kid sleeping in the doghouse. They bragged about that like they were proud of what good parents they thought they were. They maintained their martyr status even as they were prosecuted for the crime. Many people agreed with them and lamented that the government was prosecuting them.

That is the kind of mentality he is fostering by saying that, whether he meant to or not. This Pope has said some stuff I agree with and some stuff I don't agree with. This is one of those times I don't agree with him, because of a deeper understanding of the mentality of so many people who take parenting as an excuse to think up new and inventive ways to torture kids.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. RCC says flogging the bishop, however, is still verboten.

...what?

[PeaceNikki]

42. And if the kid insults your mother? Punch him/her, right, Pontiff?

Fuck that guy.