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[WilliamPitt]

This message was self-deleted by its author (WilliamPitt) on Fri Apr 27, 2012, 08:00 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[WI_DEM]

1. Not trying to make excuses for the guy, but didn't his affair and the baby come after '04

So it is conceivable that had he been elected VP he might not have even met Hunter

[WilliamPitt]

2. That's a finely-split hair

You really think it wouldn't have happened anyway?

[cali]

5. yeah. I think it's quite likely it never would have happened.

He may never have met Hunter. Not saying he wouldn't have had another affair, but that doesn't mean he would have impregnated the woman or been found out.

[joeybee12]

18. He might not have the time even if he had the inclination...nt

[WI_DEM]

9. Well, who knows? It might have been somebody else, not necessarily Hunter

If he was going to go ahead and cheat as a presidential candidate, I guess there is a good chance he would have cheated as VP and hoped that his top level security would keep things quiet.

Mind you, I'm not a huge fan. In '04 I was for Dean and thought that Edwards brought absolutely nothing to the ticket.

[unc70]

10. Would not have happened, certainly not with Hunter/Druck

This story is far more complex and involves more people than just the Edwards and Young families. The trial has revealed that Young was scamming Mellon and Baron while using their money to build the new Young mansion near here.

But I don't think it would have happened.

This time I area with Cali.

[blm]

11. Yes - his affair was late in 2006. I doubt his ego would've needed salve in 2006 if he was VP, and

he would have stayed on track with his 'good guy' persona, though to some of us we recognized it early on as only a 'persona' being maintained for outward appearances. Hate to say it, but, Elizabeth had shown some signs of disingenuousness when it suited her, too.

He also would have Secret Service to deal with and plenty of CONSTANT media scrutiny and added workload. Maybe he's the kind of guy who NEEDS that attention and workload in order to do the right thing.

Bottom line - no way would he have taken such a great PUBLIC risk and upset his own applecart if he had, indeed, been living as VP.

[jenwilson]

29. Good point about the loss causing this problem

.

[gateley]

6. I think he came to believe he was untouchable, so something similar probably would

have occurred.

[loyalsister]

37. I would be more inclined to wonder how many came before

He wanted to be Clinton 2.0. What better way to solidify that than to leave a trail of used women. T think an ego that size has to be endlessly stroked.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. You have stated the facts quite clearly, my dear Will.

They are irrefutable.

I applaud your very clear thinking, and your lucid writing.

Thank you!

[gateley]

4. It would have provided fodder -- "First Clinton, now Edwards".

In Game Change, Edwards was painted as insufferably egotistical and only caring about himself (shock, I know). Even when this was breaking he still felt he was viable and thought Obama should snap him up for VP. He was incredulous that Obama didn't feel the same way. Out of touch with reality. I've no doubt had he become VP, he'd have fucked up royally.

[grasswire]

7. think about what has recently been emphasized about Rathergate.

Dan Bartlett was shown the memos by CBS. He sent them to the go-to guy for verification. The go-to guy said they were falsified.

Knowing that, Bartlett did not object to them. They were released by Rather and Mapes and CBS. Bartlett did that with strategic purpose. He knew it would blow up Rather's story.

I'm sure that Rove and Bartlett were licking their lips at the prospect of blowing up the Kerry-Edwards administration in this same manner.

[karynnj]

25. They would have tried, but in reality just as it is the Obama administration,

it would have been the Kerry administration. Kerry has been a target of the right since 1972 and they have not found anything real on him. If Edwards became a problem, he would have been told to resign. It would not be a positive development, but it is very likely that Kerry could have handled it well. Likely picking a new VP, who was of unimpeachable character.

Even with Clinton , it was not the affair, but the fact that they could use his lying under oath to impeach him - knowing full well that the Senate would vote on party lines.

[DCKit]

8. Even among those we like, even love....

I doubt there is a single person in politics of "unimpeachable character".

Just sayin'

[Nye Bevan]

13. I actually think Obama comes pretty close.

I don't think there's ever been so much as a hint of any kind of personal scandal, ever. He and Michelle always strike me as genuinely still in love.

[geek tragedy]

12. Imagine if he had won the 2008 nomination . . . nt

[Nye Bevan]

14. We would be working on the campaign to oust President McCain (nt)

[Arkana]

24. Considering the events of the last four years I'd say we'd be looking

to oust President Sarah Palin.

[truebrit71]

15. I bigger issue for me is the fact that knowing all this he ran in 2008 ANYWAY....

...did he really think he could keep it quiet if he won????

[loyalsister]

36. That is the essence of his betrayal

On some level he had to have known that if he had gotten elected, his 2 Americas message would die with his perceived character. And with it any hope of it gaining traction as for long as the facts could be overlooked.

[DefenseLawyer]

16. What's your quota for "Fuck John Edwards" threads per day?

I hope you've reached it. We get it.

[WilliamPitt]

19. Thanks

for kicking my thread.

[calimary]

17. "This is tactical thinking: cold, hard and unforgiving. But it is fact."

Sad but true, Will.

And one other thing needs to be pointed out here: "Tactical thinking" is indeed cold, hard, and unforgiving. But it's the way we have to start thinking, on general principles, if we're gonna win in this day and age. That's the currency these days. Both on offense AND defense. And if we're to win, we have to get very good at that, very quickly. That's how the enemy fights, and if they're bringing guns to gunfights and we're still arming ourselves with feather dusters, then guess who'll win every time.

We especially have to be cold, hard, and unforgiving against all things GOP. Against ALL things GOP. No mercy - as you yourself would say - "utterly."

[unionworks]

45. And the danger

In trying to match the GOP in their warped zeal is that you end up becoming more like them than a democrat. Which is, in my opinion, exactly what has happened. They have managed to move the democrats further to the right every election.

[Kalidurga]

20. I never liked him.

But, I never played the I told you so game. People had their reasons for backing him. My theory is that many people were desperate to get rid of Bush. I had hoped calmer heads would prevail and Edwards wouldn't have come so close to the Vice Presidency, but he did. So now we get to see Gingrich supporters fall all over themselves to point out how rotten Edwards is. It is somewhat embarrassing, but at least we aren't the ones being hypocrites.

All that being said, I don't have bad feelings towards Edwards, he made a lot of terrible mistakes. I hope he gets a fair trail and if he is guilty he can rot, I won't lose sleep over it and I won't lose sleep if he is not found liable for something his campaign may have done without his knowledge.

[karynnj]

21. It is not clear that Edwards, if he were VP would have met Rielle

or had an affair with anyone. If he did, it would be less a scandal than if it were the President - and the problem for Clinton was that he lied under oath about it. As VP, he could be pressured to resign and if he wouldn't, the President could very easily make him a lame duck - signalling that he would be replaced. (Given so many bad things that likely couldn't be stopped and the dysfunctional 109th Congress, I would guess that Kerry would not have been reelected, though he would have done substantial good. No one could know how bad 2008 really was going to be under Bush.)

I think had Kerry won, the two things that would have been different are that he would have handled Iraq differently - likely as he said in 2004. (That he spoke to Jordan, Egypt, France and Germany and got them to agree that they would offer to train Iraqis soldiers quickly in their countries suggests that he would have done this and had international support. That would have allowed him to deal with Afghanistan 4 years earlier than Obama - and there he was for something more limited than what Obama chose. The other thing is likely more important - he clearly would not have appointed Alito and Roberts - which moved the court right. He would have replaced a swing vote and a right vote with two people we likely would respect. There would likely be no Citizens United.

The fact that the incoming President would replace a conservative and a swing vote is possibly why 2004 was played on such an uneven playing field and the media allowed character assassinations of Teresa and John Kerry.

[Major Hogwash]

40. Those are all very good points, karen.

I don't think Rielle would have even come into the picture back then.

[Ruby the Liberal]

22. I don't care about his sex life.

I care that he misused campaign funds in violation of FEC law.

There aren't 2 Americas, there are 3. The 1%, those who think laws don't apply to them, and the rest of us (Noting crossover).

[unc70]

28. The trial is refuting the allegations that Edwards violated FEC law

Andrew Young was running a scam on Mellon and Baron and using the money himself to build the Young's dream house here.

[Ruby the Liberal]

32. No, this trial is about 2 sets of attorneys

attempting to play the "whats the meaning of is" game in a battle of wits to prove who is smarter.

Noting, I expected nothing less.

[unionworks]

46. by crossover

Are you perhaps referring to the protesters who Occupied Wall Street? It's funny how none of the real criminals on Wall Street never get charged....

[progressoid]

23. "What he did puts Bill Clinton's indiscretions in deep shade"

I hate to say it, but I think Edwards was just sloppier in dealing with his indiscretions. Plus Clinton has a charm that has given him more than few passes for his indiscretions.

[unc70]

26. You might want to withhold your judgement of Edwards until after his trial

By the end of the trial, it seems increasingly likely that almost everything alleged in books and in the indictment will have been refuted successfully except that Edwards and Hunter had an affair and are parents of a daughter.

I am not suggesting that Edwards will be rehabilitated and his reputation restored.

Depending on how aggressive his defense team wants to push things, the reputations of a number of other people might take a hit.

That doesn't include all those who worried at what Hunter might say on the stand about them.

[WilliamPitt]

30. Find in my post

anything referring to what's happening with the trial.

I'll wait.

[Major Hogwash]

38. What's the title of your thread, Will?

While the trial is currently going on.

Something else you failed to admit is that Edwards didn't have an affair until 2006, which has been pointed out several times in this thread, yet you didn't take it into consideration when making your post.

I'm just saying . . .

[WilliamPitt]

42. The word you clearly missed, though it was capitalized, is

BUT.

[Cleita]

27. You are right.

I wish next time we find the real deal. I really liked his message.

[whatchamacallit]

31. I supported him until he shit the bed

switched to Obama... and now I kinda feel like I'm 0 for 2.

[bvar22]

33. John Edwards may be innocent. John Edwards may be guilty. BUT...

..he DID bring the Issue of Plight of The Poor to Campaign 2008 with his Two Americas Campaign.
The LAST time "The Poor" were mentioned as a Democratic Party Issue was the day John Edwards dropped out.

John Edwards was also the first to propose a powerful, national Public Option to compete with the For Profit Health Insurance Cartel to "Keep them Honest".
This was quickly borrowed by other candidates during the 2008 Campaign
and as quickly discarded when it was no longer needed to get elected.

For THAT,
I THANK John Edwards,
warts & all.
I really don't care what he does on his own time behind closed doors,
as long it is with consenting adults.


We currently have much bigger Tom Cats in positions of power in Washington
and out State Houses.
Historically, we have had much worse,
and still Lionize them today as effective representatives,
Don't EVEN think about looking overseas at the Heads of States in Europe.

I wanted John Edwards to represent me IN GOVERNMENT.
I wasn't going to marry him.

Bill Clinton was a decent president,
but I wouldn't trust him alone with my teenage daughter
or my wallet.

Disclaimer:
John Edwards was not my first choice.
He was my 3rd Fallback choice.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their Private Lives.
SEE: John Kennedy
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[rhett o rick]

34. Well said. nm

[bluedeminredstate]

35. What you said

I think I'm one of the few people in the country who think JE has been punished enough.

[RB TexLa]

39. Had he become vice president, no one would have ever heard of the girlfriend

except from kook web sites saying that her deadly car accident was murder. And no would have believed them.

[WilliamPitt]

43. That makes it better.

Ask Elizabeth.

Oh, wait. You can't.

[RB TexLa]

44. What does she have to do with it? The girlfriend wouldn't have been a problem.

this is silly.

[jcboon]

41. I don't blame him a lot

Anyone who has had a spouse with cancer ought to know how difficult it can be. I think rather than being egotistical, Edwards was naive and showed an amazing lack of foresight. It's important to remember he wasn't Vice-President he wasn't even holding public office--he was just a guy with some good ideas and personal issues. One could make the argument that his biggest victim was himself.

Bill Clinton, God bless him, was a sitting President he had an affair and committed de facto sexual harassment his behavior damaged the Democratic Party and our country for years.

Democrats need to figure out how to find better candidates and once we find them we ought to judge them on the merits of their governing skills rather than on personal behavior. Heck, FDR one of our greatest Presidents had an affair. Abraham Lincoln our greatest President said he didn't trust a man with no personal vices.