'A Form of Permanent Wage Theft': When the Soaring Price of College Isn’t Worth It

[n2doc]

Ian Sherman was happy to be in Florida's subtropical climate and far from the cold weather of his native Detroit as he walked onto the paved streets of Full Sail University's campus in Winter Park, Florida in the summer of 2006.

Months earlier, the 22-year-old had been working in Detroit's local music scene, and was looking for a way out of his hometown. For a young person diagnosed with dyslexia and Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), Sherman found the traditional university system route an intimidating prospect. So when a friend mentioned a school in Florida offering programs designed to launch a career in the music business, he went down for an open day.

"It's a beautiful place. I was coming from seeing burnt-out buildings in Detroit to seeing palm trees," he told VICE News. "There was a sense of solace for people passionate about music. It really was a Willy Wonka factory for music dorks… Being young, foolish, and seeking instant gratification, I chose what was put in front of me."

A month after his open day, Sherman enrolled in Full Sail's two-year Music Business program, which today costs a total of almost $60,000 before any grants and scholarships. On-campus housing was not an option for Sherman's program, and because of the course's intensive schedule, neither was working. So he took out a mixture of federal and private loans worth a staggering $130,000 to cover tuition, rent, and living expenses.

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https://news.vice.com/article/a-form-of-permanent-wage-theft-when-the-soaring-price-of-college-isnt-worth-it

[MADem]

1. Lots of community colleges have music programs....and business classes, too.

Many state colleges and universities have very high quality classes, too. One of the best schools in the USA is a state school in the rather hardscrabble city of Lowell, MA--they're regarded as a very good value for the cash, and the education is first-rate.

This poor kid, he got snookered. And that's not "college." That's unarmed robbery. The only thing in "Full Sail" is your wallet.

I mean, come on--what bullshit!!!

According to the Department of Education's (DOE) College Affordability & Transparency Center website, Full Sail's average net prices are in the top 5 percent of all colleges in America. After scholarships and grant aid is subtracted from the total cost of attendance, Full Sail charged an average of $30,769 in the 2011-12 academic year.

This was $9,000 more than the average for-profit college and almost $19,000 more than a four-year public university's average tuition. According to the data collected by the DOE, the equivalent cost to attend Harvard University was a bargain basement $18,277.

Full Sail University disputed being listed in the most expensive 5 percent of colleges when contacted by VICE News, pointing out that their bachelor's level degrees are "accelerated" programs that pack in more tuition time than other four-year colleges.

These are the fees for one of the finest music schools in the world--not cheap--but not sixty grand, either: http://www.berklee.edu/bursar/tuition-and-related-costs

The latter degree is actually WORTH something.

[n2doc]

3. Ah, but the fly in the ointment is admission

Try getting into Berklee or Harvard if you aren't one of those supremely self-driven kids who knows what they want to be in grammar school, and works every day really hard to get there and is in a school that can give them the opportunities they need, or is a genius who is recognized for their abilities. For the 99.9% of the rest of us, lesser schools will have to do. Hell even going to a state school nowadays means that one has to have done well on their grades, 3.0 or better. The University of Georgia is now up to 3.5 as their admissions standard for most.

Part of the scam of these for-profit schools is the idea that one can get a top end experience just by borrowing money to pay for it. You don't obviously get that, but for the person who is sold on 'pursuing your dreams' it is a siren's call.

[Drahthaardogs]

6. I know a Princeton Grad who works as a parochial english teacher. Makes $35,000/yr

I know an MIT graduate who is a regulator for a state health and environment department. Fancy schools do not guarantee a high paying job.

[daleanime]

17. And I hate to say....

they shouldn't.

But no college should be allowed to profit off a students dream like this.

[MADem]

7. But you can get into Bunker Hill Community, Cape Cod Community,

Northern Essex Community and a host of other affordable schools with great programs--even with "not great" grades. You can get into the UMASS system of four year colleges too if you've done well in your last couple of high school years. And odds are, you'll get a better education at those schools--smaller class size, teachers who aren't burnt out, and special needs/unique learner accommodations for kids with ADD/ADHD and other learning issues.

And if you're not smart enough to get in on the first go-round, you can take a course or two as a non-matriculator, do well, and then apply again. And if you're agoraphobic or have mobility issues, or have to work a lot, you can take many classes online, or do a "hybrid" version (online w/some in-class interaction). I know a LOT of young adults in college, many are related to me, and I've seen all the experiences--from the community college all the way up to the Ivy Leagues, and the snazzy "upscale" schools in-between.

I do understand what is going on here--it's called a scam, a con, and the students they recruit used to be called "easy marks" or "dupes" or "suckers" in days gone by. These kids were let down by their public school "guidance counselors" who spend very little time guiding children and teaching them to know the difference between trash and treasure when it comes to higher education.

Any one who thinks that a joint called "Full Sail" is going to be around in a hundred years is in full sail, themselves--high on dreams. That's not a "top end experience" --it's an ersatz version of same, sort of like the University of Phoenix with their red socks ads (Say, I'm an idiot, too! I also OVERPAID for an inferior education--hire ME!!). These joints exist to separate money from "marks." Education is a secondary goal--at best.

[ND-Dem]

8. Part of the scam of these for-profit schools is the idea that one can get a top end experience just

by borrowing money to pay for it. = exactly. Often by people whose families' don't have a lot of, if any, college grads and thus mystify the system.

[Drahthaardogs]

5. Agree.

My son started off at a Jr. College for the general ed credits, even with the 31 ACT score. He saved tens of thousands of dollars. Reagan made colleges a business, cause you know, the free market and all that stuff.

Tell your kids to get their degree as fast and as cheap as they can. A college experience is NOT worth $100,000 in debt that will follow you for 40 years.

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Obama calling for free Jr. College or Community College.

[MADem]

9. Personally, I think that community college is the new high school.

I think Obama has it right, too--years ago, a high school diploma was all a lot of people needed to do very well in life--now, it's nowhere near enough.

Kids today are taking longer to mature--and to my mind, that's not a bad thing. They say the human brain isn't fully developed until 25 (I guess in the old days, when people died young, achieving "wisdom" was nothing more than reaching adulthood!). Since people are living longer, there's nothing wrong with taking a little more time to learn the ways of the world. Taking a few more years of learning is all to the good.

[Drahthaardogs]

10. It can be used a springboard to University

Get your General Education Credits out of the way then transfer in as a Junior. Universities do not offer enough general education credits and the students wind up having to go 5 years instead of four because they could not get into the classes they needed.

[MADem]

13. They can avoid the "five year" thing by working in the same university system.

If someone transfers from a community college to a state school in the same system, they can avoid having to do extra classes, assuming they had something resembling a game plan starting in their sophomore year. Also, if they have enough discipline, they can take the required courses online. And for those who want to get moving, they can take summer courses and finish sooner.

The "Five Year College Experience" is the norm at a few schools--one of the most well known is Northeastern--they put the students in paid internships (the students have to apply and get accepted by the companies for which they work) and they do a half year at a crack (two separate times) in the "real world" working. The school isn't stupid--they get the benefit of two extra semesters of dorm fees from each student. They've spent a fortune on student housing in recent years--it's very fancy and upscale, much of it--they still have some of the older rooms, but they stick the freshmen in those, while they make freshman on-campus residence mandatory.

[daleanime]

18. Agreed, a good start.....

but it needs to be just a start.

[Liberal_in_LA]

12. it helps to come from a family w knowledge such as this

With college education,cultural capital to guide their young away from expensive ripoffs

[MADem]

14. It certainly does, and many families don't have this experience, which is why the guidance

counselors really need to step up and help in this regard. Instead of worrying about the Fauntleroys and Petunias with Trust Fund Parents who will helicopter all over their college application process, they should devote their energies to the least likely candidates, and steer them through the process.

Of course, in a lot of places, they're shitcanning the guidance counselors--it's a money-saver--and making the teachers fill in on that score.

I'd like to see something accessible, on TV or the net, that would walk kids through the process/potential pitfalls. I hate to see young people get ripped off.

[msongs]

2. article does not say if this guy learned what he needed to be a money earning musician

or whether he has any talent justifying spending that amount of money

[n2doc]

4. He has a job in the industry

So he has talent. He also says that he would have been better off not going to school as he didn't learn anything useful.

[mikehiggins]

11. think hard about college

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I had the opportunity to choose between going to college on a track that would lead to a job teaching history OR becoming an electrician. I went with the trade because I was bored with school and loved the working life. A zillion years later I can't say I regretted it for an instant. Many young men and women today would be far better off with a trade than with a diploma and I didn't leave my trade owing 100 grand either. Don't push your kids on the academic track automatically just because, well, a degree. The guy who fixes my car, or fixes my plumbing, or knows how to weld, does a lot better, many times, than the PhD next door.

Just saying...

[MADem]

15. This is a fair point--and if you make good money as an electrician, you can afford to go to college.

even if you have to do it part-time, online.

I have a young (well, thirty or so is young to me) relative who embarked on the work track and is graduating university magna cum laude (fingers crossed, assuming the last courses go well) this spring, after taking a hybrid part-time/online track.

It can be done if one is motivated and wants it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. People say "college is not a vocational school"

Okay, fine. Refusal to justify it on that basis doesn't mean "economics be damned". Even lifestyle purchases are subject to cost/benefit calculus.

Is one year of education @ $65,000 (that you don't have) plus $30,000 in lost wages, plus (insert large number here) in interest expense worth it? Is postponing adulthood another few years that valuable?

Absent inherited wealth, you're born with about 100,000 hours of working life available to sell. The 10,000 hours spent in college must increase the value of the remaining 90,000 hours by enough to not only recoup the cost of the tuition but also recoup the lost value of the 10,000 hours.

If a HS education renders your time worth $10/hour, your lifetime labor is worth $1 million. Let's call this the baseline.

If 5 years of college costs $25,000 annually, the total cost of that education is $230,000 ($125,000 + $105,000 in lost wages). This ignores opportunity costs; (the investment value of a dollar saved when you're 18 is far greater than one saved when you're 22), to recoup your investment, the education needs to raise your hourly labor value to about $14.

I'm happy with my decision to be a generalist. One of the primary reasons is that if I'd continued school to be a mechanical engineer, I'd be geographically constrained by commuting distance to the places I could live. I don't want (and wouldn't want to pay the costs) to live within 45 minutes of any mechanical engineers workplace.
A secondary reason is that I still have much of the money I sold my 19 year old hours for (as assets; house, retirement, etc). Due in large part to college debt, it took a great many years for my college educated peers to catch up, if they ever did.