This Californian to the anti-vaxxers: F.U.

[RandySF]

With the Disneyland measles outbreak expected to grow in the coming weeks, Bay Area hospitals and doctors’ offices are preparing for new cases and a flood of questions from patients worried about getting sick.

Health care providers who have never seen a case of measles also are being trained on how to recognize the illness and what to do with patients who show up in clinics or emergency rooms with suspicious symptoms.

“We don’t typically see measles cases, and that’s required a fair amount of education of our physicians, nurses, emergency departments, so they’re prepared and know what to look for,” said Dr. Stephen Parodi, director of hospital operations for Kaiser Northern California.....

“Unfortunately, we are off to a bad start in 2015,” said Dr. Gil Chavez, deputy director of the Center for Infectious Diseases with the California Department of Public Health, in a teleconference with reporters earlier this week. “Clearly from this particular outbreak we can anticipate additional cases. If we can get people who are not vaccinated to get vaccinated, that would be super helpful.”


http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Area-hospitals-doctors-prepare-for-the-6036168.php#photo-7429409

[hunter]

1. Yep. I got mumps just before the vaccine and it fucked me up a little. Unfortunate timing.

Ask the scarred remains of my left testicle... It still hurts "down there" sometimes.

My body is also covered with chicken pox scars, everywhere, even in my mouth.

My mom's chicken pox returned again with vengeance as shingles, in one of the zones any reputable physician will automatically prescribe high powered opiate pain killers for, damn any DEA review.

I get flu shots too. Once upon a time I got the flu and it turned me into skeleton man when it complicated into pneumonia and I could hardly breathe, let alone eat.

My kids always had their shots. They are adults now, but we still encourage them to keep their vaccinations current.

[NuclearDem]

7. Didn't realize the library was open this late on Saturday.

[zappaman]

8. !!!

[hunter]

15. You just want to see pictures?

[joeglow3]

18. Haha. You believe that shit?

Really?

[LiberalElite]

40. I have chicken pox scars too - but

I've polio vacc followed another year by the dose on a sugar cube, diptheria vacc, and flu shots every year since 1988 when I was diagnosed with asthma. there was some other vacc but I forget what it was for. (No measles vacc because I had it as a kid in the '50s.) I finally gave in and got the shingles shot after my doctor recommended it a couple years ago. (Cost was over $200 and not covered by insurance, bless their hearts.) I also got a tetanus shot after the cat zinged me in the finger and it got infected.

I have total confidence in vaccinations.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Kick for exposure!

[shenmue]

3. Yep

[zappaman]

4. I too say "fuck you" to anti-vaxxers.

Dumber than fucking rocks.

[Initech]

5. Same here.

[zappaman]

10. Seriously, what time does the library close on Saturdays?

[zappaman]

14. Lol!

[NuclearDem]

19. Will you and Silver Buzzard just kiss already?

[uppityperson]

16. Did it really take you 5 posts to post shill? Maybe you could start collecting frogs for a hobby?

[NuclearDem]

11. Oh come on, you can do better than that.

[zappaman]

13. It's late...give her a break.

[KeepItReal]

20. These fools brought measles back.

I'm paranoid about giving my future kid (fates be willing) multiple vaccinations at one time, but can't they be done sequentially in a prudent fashion?

[RandySF]

21. What are you talking about?

Kids don't get all of their vaccines at once. Here is a recommended schedule.

http://www.vaccines.gov/who_and_when/infants_to_teens/index.html

As you notice, the first measles vaccine is not until 9 months, plenty of time to get infected by some loony couple's kid.

[KeepItReal]

24. According to the schedule there are 6 different vaccines needed at 2 months old.

And they all need to be done before 4 months old.

I'll be sure to ask my pediatrician friend what is the best course of action given my concerns and the desire to make sure my future child *IS VACCINATED FULLY*.

[jeff47]

22. Tip your head back and inhale through your mouth.

You've now been exposed to hundreds of different pathogens that cause a wide variety of diseases.

Children are exposed to many thousands of disease-causing organisms every single day. Doesn't matter how much you scrub down your house, you can not eliminate them all.

Multiple vaccinations are lost in the noise. Their immune systems can easily handle it*. They will be exposed to far more germs by crawling around on your floor and putting any random thing they find in their mouths.

(*assumes the child is not immunocompromised or allergic to vaccine components, since those are rare.)

[KeepItReal]

23. I'm not a "germaphobe", thanks.

eom

[jeff47]

25. Then why do you think multiple vaccines are somehow difficult to handle?

Kid gets exposed to 303 diseases that day instead of 300. And the last 3 were weakened so they can't actually make the kid sick.

[KeepItReal]

26. See post #24

eom

[jeff47]

27. The post that doesn't actually answer the question.

Why do you think multiple vaccinations are hard to handle?

[3catwoman3]

57. Children are exposed to thousands of every day...

...life-on-planet earth antigens the moment they are born - thousands. The immunizations given in the first 6 months of life contain fewer total antigens than used to be contained in a single smallpox vaccination. 2 shots protect against 6 diseases, and one oral immunization against a nasty GI virus.

[abelenkpe]

61. Yes you can space them out a bit instead of getting them all at once

Doctor suggested we do that with my son when he was very small because he was a preemie and didn't weigh much. He still doesn't weigh much. Ten years old only 62 pounds. Strong as heck though. All muscle, swims two hours everyday on swim team. Just a bean though. And vaccinated. Flu shot every year, too. So yes you can space them out a bit. Instead of getting four shots during a visit we came in every two weeks for a couple months...that sort of thing.
Oddly though most of his schoolmates in West Hollywood do not vaccinate. Thought one had to vaccinated to go to public school, but maybe not?

[HockeyMom]

28. It's not unvaccinated children, but vaccinated adults

spreading it. They are mostly older adults getting this. Read a report that before the mid 70s the measles vax given back then was with a killed virus. Today, they use a small amount of the live virus. Article also said that in the years when the live virus first started being used, some people were still being vaccinated with the old one. Cannot know which vax these people received in those days. Back in the 60s, some of these people with the old vax, not only caught measles, but what they called Atypical Measles. meaning it mutated.

Might make you wonder if this is also what is happening with whooping cough too. The old vax is not the same as the one today either. Basically, it is not quite as simple as kids not being vaccinated.

[Cal Carpenter]

29. What's your source?

Everything I've seen on the current CA outbreak says most people who are getting it are unvaccinated.

"Overall, 82% of those infected in this outbreak were not vaccinated, either because they're too young or because they elected not to be, officials said."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/21/health/disneyland-measles/index.html

eta: and unless I'm mistaken, 'patient zero' - the person thought to have brought it to disney, was an unvaccinated non-American visitor.

I haven't seen anything about what you are claiming about vaccinated adults spreading it around.

[HockeyMom]

30. NBC

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/have-you-had-your-measles-shot-maybe-you-need-another-n290786

There was another article which "speculated" that these vaccinated adults may have been undervaccinated; not up to date on boosters, or only one shot of the older version of measles vax.

Obviously the 70 year old would have been not immunzied. It was not around when he was a child. MMR is not recommded for people born before 1957 since it was so widespead back then and people either had measles or were exposed to it but didn't catch it and it is assumed they have immunity. The 70 year old may never have had measles himself though.

[Cal Carpenter]

31. Yeah, that doesn't back up your claims above

According to your link, 6 of the 59 people who were diagnosed with measles when that article was written had been vaccinated (the total number keeps rising).

About 10%.

Your claim that "It's not unvaccinated children, but vaccinated adults spreading it. They are mostly older adults getting this" is completely false according to your own link and everything else I've read about this.

The issue of measles booster shots for older folks is not a new revelation, although what *is* new is the increased risk among that population -- with the increased risk coming from an outbreak caused by unvaccinated folks.

The bottom line is that the increased number of unvaccinated people in the last couple of decades in certain parts of the country due to 'personal belief' exemptions is putting everyone at risk.

[HockeyMom]

32. Define "older folk"

I had measles, as did majority of people born before 1957 before the vax came out. You can include Seniors in that unvaccinated population. I have never heard any source, not even the CDC, say if you had measles yourself, a booster is necessary. Passive, Natural, Acquired Immunity. Know the difference?

[Cal Carpenter]

33. Your initial claims are still wrong

and now you've changed the subject entirely. I'm not going down this rabbit hole with you.

Spreading misinformation bothers me.

Have a nice day.

[HockeyMom]

34. have a nice life

Now all these people will have natural immunity to measles. They won't be DEAD, and will join the rank of us "ghosts" who died from Measles before vaccinations, They will not need to worry about boosters, while the rest of you YOUNSTERS will be terrified of catching measles.

[uppityperson]

54. All the people who survive will have "natural immunity". Those who die will be dead, like so many

did? Before the vaccine hundreds died every year in the USA. Yes, you survived, but many did not.

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/vaccination.html

Worldwide, an estimated 20 million people get measles and 122,000 people die from the disease each year—that equals about 330 deaths every day or about 14 deaths every hour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles

The death rate in the 1920s was around 30% for measles pneumonia.

Between 1987 and 2000, the case fatality rate across the United States was three measles-attributable deaths per 1000 cases, or 0.3%.[17] In underdeveloped nations with high rates of malnutrition and poor healthcare, fatality rates have been as high as 28%.[17] In immunocompromised persons (e.g., people with AIDS) the fatality rate is approximately 30%.[18]

(clip)
In 2011, the WHO estimated that there were about 158,000 deaths caused by measles. This is down from 630,000 deaths in 1990

[KitSileya]

63. Don't you know HockeyMom doesn't care about the fatality rates,

because she survived a plethora of these childhood diseases. Vaccines are silly, perhaps even dangerous, because she survived, and by golly, any decent person should do the same!

It's a very Republican, social darwinistic way of thinking - I survived without help, and if you can't do the same, well, then too bad.

[uppityperson]

65. "We" survived so why should we care about those who did? Sigh.

I see this all too often, not a good argument.

[demigoddess]

78. you are right

the reason they developed the vaccines is because children would die. The vaccines turned the nightmare disease into a 'childhood disease' that didn't hurt anybody. Actually, vaccines are the best thing modern medicine ever did. saved more lives.

[SidDithers]

71. If only scientists could create a vaccine out of a sample of HockeyMom blood...

Then no child would ever be sick again.

Sid

[zappaman]

79. Genius!

[trotsky]

86. That's it in a nutshell:

It's a very Republican, social darwinistic way of thinking - I survived without help, and if you can't do the same, well, then too bad.

[HockeyMom]

35. Censorship on the Internet

FB pages for Anti-Vax groups being dropped. Just happened today with a group of over 1,000 people that I was on. ARTICLES on the Net getting 401 Error Messages?

Whatever your pesonal views on this subject, do you agree with this censorship and free exchange of information, including if you do not agree with the current medical views? Totalitarisn society.

This just happened to me today. Do you seriously think that with this vaccination panic you can prevent the free exchnage of ideas? Can we not use our VOCAL CORDS to tell others, family members, and people who we come in contact with? Can we send SNAIL MAIL to others expressing our views? Open up our mail to see it's the correct content in this regard? Did the First Amendment go out of the window because of some "epidemic"?

Personally, I find this FAR more disturbing than any epidemic; measles, mumps, whooping cough, or flu. FREE SPEECH is the key to our Democracy, and as a Democrat you should be very, very worried about this, WHATEVER your view on vaccinations are.

[zappaman]

36. That's because anti-vaxxers are just as fucking stupid as

Climate change deniers, birthers, and creationists.
Maybe even fucking dumber!

[trumad]

37. link?

[NuclearDem]

38. Ugh.

The First Amendment doesn't prevent Facebook from dropping groups it doesn't want, being a private company.

[HockeyMom]

39. Precisely

Free Speech, whether your agree with their Pro or Anti Vaccination stance, they have the right to talk about their views. Republicans can spew all they want. I agree they have the First Admendment rights to say whatever they want about Legitimate Rape all they want, even if that flies in the face of Science. Debate them. Cite sources. Do not attempt to SILENCE them because it goes against what you believe in. It goes the same for Anti Vaxers. They should not be silenced just because some people do not like what they are saying. What medical science says should not prohibit the First Admendment Rights.

If you say NO to this, then it will come back to bite you in the ass on other issues. Nieed to look at the bigger picture of First Amendment Rights.

[NuclearDem]

41. Facebook gets to decide what's hosted on Facebook.

That is not a First Amendment issue. Anti-vaxxers don't have a right to have groups on Facebook.

And frankly, fuck anti-vaxxers. They lose Facebook groups, parents lose children to easily preventable diseases because some fucker believed Andrew Wakefield. Boo fucking hoo. Frankly, it's about time websites starting purging this nonsense.

[HockeyMom]

42. CLOSED groups are still there

Which means no free exchange of ideas. Ok, FB decison, BUT that still cannot prevent the First Amendment right of individuals to speak out on issues they want; Net, email, snail mail, verbally. You may not like what this Granny has to say on vaccinations, but I have every right to say it to whoever I choose. I also have the right as an adult to refuse every damned vaccination or other medical intervention that I want for my adult self.

[NuclearDem]

44. You have the right to not have your speech infringed by the state.

You don't have the right to a private company's resources if they decide they don't want anything to do with you.

Which is why this outrage is entirely confusing. There is absolutely zero assault on your right to free expression.

[HockeyMom]

48. Closed groups there

Public groups gone. Sounds like somebody doesn't want the free exchange of ideas.

[NuclearDem]

49. Or maybe someone at Facebook doesn't want anti-vaxx crap spreading during a measles outbreak.

Or did you actually think there weren't consequences for anti-vaxx rhetoric?

[HockeyMom]

73. No Free Speech now too?

Can we use our vocal cords? How about Snail Mail?

[NuclearDem]

76. Knock yourself out.

Absolutely nobody is saying you can't push anti-vaxx crap; there are simply people and groups who don't want anything to do with it.

[uppityperson]

55. Maybe they decided to not allow maliciously spreading falsehoods which can hurt so many people.

Liability and all of that.

[joeglow3]

59. Do you say the same thing when a right wing loon comes on DU?

[HockeyMom]

74. This is a site for Democrats

They can have their's. Should their sites be shut down because we don't agree with them? Same for sites for vaccinations from both points of view.

[joeglow3]

90. And Facebook has decided it is not for bat shit crazy anti-science loons

Those people can have their sites. And no one nor Facebook is advocating those bat shit crazy sites be shut down.

[hatrack]

69. First Amendment my Aunt Fanny!

What the First Amendment says is that you can't be arrested, prosecuted, censored or otherwise punished by THE GOVERNMENT for what you say, print, publish or broadcast.

What it does NOT say is that private interests, businesses, employers or organizations will similarly restrain themselves, or that you can say, print, publish or broadcast whatever you want without consequences of any kind.

[YoungDemCA]

52. Anti-vaxxers are maliciously spreading proven falsehoods-resulting in deadly outcomes

By doing so, they are reckless assholes-at best. "Free speech" my ass.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

91. It's not censorship to shut down dangerous and ignorant Facebook pages

The less dangerous anti-vax horseshit on Facebook, the safer the rest of us will be. Because honestly, there are idiots who will believe ANYTHING they see on Facebook if it's being promoted by a "friend". (For some reason, critical thinking is not something that Americans are very good at, and the anti-vax movement is exhibit A.)

The assholes that refuse vaccination put people like me, that are immuno-compromised, at greater risk for DEATH. Someone espousing an anti-vax viewpoint gets a hearty "fuck you" from me, because seriously, how can you be against something that is harmless to you but has the possibility of killing me? Really, how fucking selfish can you be? Can you answer those questions? What makes your "choice" more important than my fucking life?

[HockeyMom]

43. You ProVaxers would love this

My 66 year old husband had a heart attack last July. Code Blue 4 times. Before he was released, his cardioligist told him he needed a pnemonia, flu, shingles (aleady had before), and a Hep vax. He agree to all EXCEPT the Hep vax. "Do I look like a IV Drug User to you?" "Do you think after all I have been through, I am going to run out and look for a HOOKER?" Nurse couldn't stop laughing. His doctor look annoyed. Then looked at ME and said, "Have YOU had these vax yourself?" No, and I won't for any of them. I am not YOUR patient. You never will be MY doctor. He THREW his chart on the bed and stormed out after this. Arrogant Bastard. Could he keep unvaccinated me out of the hospital? Sure, he could, BUT what else could he do to me? Nothing. I was not his patient. WHAT could he do to me? Sorry, honey, you can keep going to that doctor since that is your choice, but don't EVER think I will accompany you to your visits with him.

That doctor, and a lot of people who I do not know, can do NOTHING if I as an adult refuse to go along with your program for vax, or anything medicine declares necessary.

[NuclearDem]

45. ...or you could have just said "No, I haven't, and don't want to."

Because honestly, it seems like you and your husband were the "arrogant bastards" in that situation.

[HockeyMom]

47. Me maybe

My husband for refusing ONE? lol

[NuclearDem]

50. No, for being unnecessarily smartass about it.

Again, all that had to be said was "No thank you." Instead, the doctor, who seemed to be just doing his damned job, had to deal with two unnecessarily difficult people who escalated the situation.

In short: you two were the problem, not him.

[HockeyMom]

75. If he is not my doctor

it is not his job to say anything.

[NuclearDem]

77. As far as I can tell, he just asked you if you had gotten the vaccines.

That's not the worst possible thing ever, and I imagine since your husband was his patient, your health was probably relevant given you live with him.

Again, I'm failing to see where anybody but you was the problem in this scenario.

[HockeyMom]

83. He got pissed at my husband's reaction to Hep Vax

Husband made a joke of his refusal. Doctor apparently did not like the questioning of his medical authority and perhaps belittle it with a joke. I thought it was funny. Nurse thought it was funny. Guess doctor didn't think it was funny. Maybe he chided the nurse in private, but he took it out on ME with his questioning me. Sorry, but I wasn't going to let him get away with his arrogant attitude because he thought he was being attacked by husband's joke. My husband LAUGHED too when I said what I did.

My husband agreed to all the other vax; just not that Hep vax. He could have refused ALL of them if he wanted to.

[NuclearDem]

84. Your story seems to keep changing to make the doctor seem more like the bad guy

when it seems patently obvious you were the problem.

A doctor trying to do his job and keep a patient healthy gets treated like shit, and all of a sudden he's the bad guy. Got it.

[HockeyMom]

87. Guess the Nurse wasn't doing her JOB EITHER

for laughing? lol Doctor wanted to up all of us and I was the easiest to target as the wife of his subject, err, excuse me patient.

Whatever. Who my husband decides to see as his personal physican is his business, not mine. I do not have to COMPLY with anything his doctor says I must do. I do not have "my doctor" for this reason. I would not comply with what they would tell me to do anyway, vaccinations or otherwise. Felt this way going going back to the 70s. Reading the INTERNET in those days too?

[NuclearDem]

88. You live with your husband. You interact with him on a daily basis.

Your health and refusal to vaccinate have all the relevance in the world to your husband's health, and subsequently, to his doctor's treatment plan for him.

You do not know more than your doctor. Hate to break it to you, but these people go through years of medical training that you don't, and the only person demonstrating any level of arrogance on this matter is you.

[zappaman]

89. Where did you get your medical degree? n/t

[uppityperson]

82. It is his doctor's job to try and keep him healthy, and that includes not being exposed to

people with diseases easily preventable by vaccines. It also is the job of doctors to advocate health matters for the public good.

Serious question for you. How many of us do you have on ignore?

[RandySF]

46. Can't do anything about adults

Or, ultimately, what parents do with their kids. But what we can do, and should do, is make vaccinations the price of admission to public schools.

[Hekate]

66. +1

and amen to that

[Cal Carpenter]

51. So your personal beliefs trump the common good.

Your 'personal beliefs' trump measurable science and you have the right to put the lives of other, more vulnerable people at risk. You would rather politicize one of the few quite certain facets of our public health system than work to protect all people, young, old and immunocompromised.

Got it.

How very libertarian of you.

Yet, you think Facebook is somehow beholden to the first amendment....

Consider me flabbergasted.

[zappaman]

53. Can't say I blame the doctor.

I probably would have done the same thing.

[uppityperson]

56. The doctor was not the "arrogant bastard there. You won't accompany your husband if he sees that doc

again because you don't appreciate him trying to give him his best chance at health?

Why do you think he wants to "do" things to you?

This is a very odd take on trying to support someone's health.

[Starry Messenger]

64. I hope you're this proud when your arrogance kills someone.

[hobbit709]

68. Will your tombstone say "I told you I was sick"?

When you come down with something the vaccines would have prevented.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

92. You know what's arrogant?

People like YOU that think your uneducated, misinformed "choice" is more important than my life. THAT'S fucking arrogance.

[onecaliberal]

58. Standing with you.

Our local school district is scrambling to figure out what to do in central California. 2 cases nearby.
Anti vaxers should be isolated. I have no tolerance for these fucking people.

[chrisa]

60. Anti-vaxxers are very similar to climate change deniers.

They say it's all a big conspiracy to make money, and all of the scientists who offer proof are in on it. Rather than science, they say we should trust uninformed morons, like washed up celebrities, who aren't the least bit qualified to give medical advice.

[ripcord]

62. I have talked to some of these people here in California

It is becoming almost a religion here, you can't even blame just the poor and uneducated, many are just incredibly ignorant.

[Hekate]

67. The poor just can't get to a doctor regularly; the well-off are into the woo

It's really aggravating. They think the laws of science don't apply to them and their offspring.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

70. Just remember, Randy, you won't win people over by insulting them

(that's a sarcastic reference to a thread I posted on a similar topic)

Kicked. Rec'd. Thank you for posting!

[SidDithers]

72. Anti-vaxxers at DU should be treated the same as chemtrailers...

Sid

[NCTraveler]

80. I have been told this isn't the way to get to the anti-vaxxers.

I am told you must use small words and talk in terms similar to those used by cults. You have to be beyond nice and attempt to be sympathetic to their flat-earth stance. No science allowed as it is all government propaganda. I really think we need to start advertising vaccines as necessary to overcome US government created diseases. They would be lined up for miles to get the shot.

[KamaAina]

81. Extra butter on mine, please.

[Lancero]

85. Title reminded me of a picture I saw earlier...

[img][/img]