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NutmegYankee

(16,199 posts)
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 11:42 PM Jan 2015

OMG - this football thing is out of hand.

I think I know what happened. The Pats used warmer than room temp air to inflate the ball to the bottom end of the proper pressure range right before the officials checked them. The balls pass. They don't feel warmer because they are made of naturally heat insulating materials. You could use them to safely grab an oven pan. After several hours the balls cool to the cooler outdoor temps, the air contracts and the football is now at a lower pressure.

The funny thing - any football inflated to the bottom end of the regulation scale inside and them brought outside in winter will "deflate" to a lower pressure out of spec.

87 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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OMG - this football thing is out of hand. (Original Post) NutmegYankee Jan 2015 OP
Someone get the Pats' balls in hand! NuclearDem Jan 2015 #1
Yawn GeorgeGist Jan 2015 #2
And this didn't happen to the Colt's balls why? jberryhill Jan 2015 #3
They didn't inflate them with hot air? NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #4
Same air is used for both. eom MohRokTah Jan 2015 #6
They were inflated somewhere else? jberryhill Jan 2015 #9
Or they used helium in the Colts balls AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #35
Recalling when Ray Guy’s kicking football was tested for helium Go Vols Jan 2015 #66
Okay, so put this together for me jberryhill Jan 2015 #45
honestly? NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #51
The act of compressing the air heats it dumbcat Jan 2015 #61
Two things jberryhill Jan 2015 #62
Very good dumbcat Jan 2015 #63
"Would not the temp of the air going into the later inflated balls be lower?" jberryhill Jan 2015 #64
It depends, as you say dumbcat Jan 2015 #65
Let's assume a constant volume jberryhill Jan 2015 #68
OK, but don't laugh dumbcat Jan 2015 #69
Can I at least chuckle? jberryhill Jan 2015 #74
Maybe they were inflated at the higher end of the range???? Hassin Bin Sober Jan 2015 #34
Your thought is wrong. MohRokTah Jan 2015 #5
I doubt that very much. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #7
The home team provides all 24 balls. MohRokTah Jan 2015 #8
No, each team provides their own 12 balls. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #12
And the NFL HAS ruled out temperature as a factor in the matter. eom MohRokTah Jan 2015 #14
Yawn. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #16
Heh, can't take the truth. eom MohRokTah Jan 2015 #17
I'm sure they did a real thorough investigation to state that, just like they did with Peterson... NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #19
Cheatriots are cheaters. MohRokTah Jan 2015 #25
Ah. Now we get to the matter at hand. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #26
Precisely, deflating the balls is the second time the cheaters were caught cheating. MohRokTah Jan 2015 #27
I was thinking more along the lines of hate. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #28
No hate. MohRokTah Jan 2015 #29
Good luck proving that. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #30
The NFL already have. eom MohRokTah Jan 2015 #32
The fact that Belichick is now pointing fingers at Brady AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #37
Some poor worker at the bottom will get the blame. MohRokTah Jan 2015 #38
Here's the Perpetrator! NBachers Jan 2015 #46
He did not. former9thward Jan 2015 #52
If your theory were true, they would have announced it days ago. pnwmom Jan 2015 #49
Do you have a link to that statement? Justice Jan 2015 #77
here ya go, Nutmeg KMOD Jan 2015 #10
Thanks! That was really interesting... petronius Jan 2015 #18
You are very welcome. KMOD Jan 2015 #31
Agree. Thanks for the link. earthside Jan 2015 #39
yup. KMOD Jan 2015 #40
Next thing you know football players will be taking steroids. B Calm Jan 2015 #11
I think many are confusing PSI with actual weight differences that can be sensed. NRaleighLiberal Jan 2015 #13
I know. Nearly impossible to feel the difference. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #15
The haters remind me of the IRS - guilty until proven innocent. Oh well - makes me laugh. NRaleighLiberal Jan 2015 #20
It's not just that. NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #21
lol, ok KMOD Jan 2015 #24
There ya go with that sciencey thing again! AgingAmerican Jan 2015 #43
I know, right? KMOD Jan 2015 #44
And yet Tom Brady, a perfectionist, says the perfect number is 12.5. pnwmom Jan 2015 #50
He's not talking about the weight of the ball pipi_k Jan 2015 #60
If he's so innocent, why isn't he begging for a real investigation to let him off the hook? pnwmom Jan 2015 #67
He's kind of busy this week. bluedigger Jan 2015 #70
The difference is in the hardness of the ball. brush Jan 2015 #78
thanks Lefta Dissenter Jan 2015 #41
pssst KMOD Jan 2015 #48
Well, Lefta Dissenter Jan 2015 #53
Nah, KMOD Jan 2015 #54
The issue is not the weight dpibel Jan 2015 #56
that is indeed the issue, but that is getting lost in much of the coverage NRaleighLiberal Jan 2015 #59
An underinflated ball also flies shorter and slower. bluedigger Jan 2015 #71
Where's the zone? dpibel Jan 2015 #72
Hence the 12th ball. bluedigger Jan 2015 #73
you do realize you are making the case for the prosecution rufus dog Jan 2015 #75
Maybe if kicked but I doubt that with a thrown ball. nt brush Jan 2015 #79
Because the means of propulsion makes a difference... how? bluedigger Jan 2015 #81
The rebound effect when the ball is compressed by being kicked brush Jan 2015 #82
Good answer! bluedigger Jan 2015 #83
Thanks for the video post brush Jan 2015 #84
No problem. bluedigger Jan 2015 #85
I agree. They can't really do anything this close to the Super Bowl. brush Jan 2015 #87
Uhmmm. Brady & Belicheat's wife was breast feeding a baby in an Olive Garden madinmaryland Jan 2015 #22
Yeah, but was the baby circumcised? NutmegYankee Jan 2015 #23
Circumcised by a Pit Bull undeterred Jan 2015 #33
Yes. With an Asian woodcarver!! madinmaryland Jan 2015 #57
Was she smoking? jmowreader Jan 2015 #55
And this strikes me as part of why I loathe sports culture. Care to explain to me why that is Bluenorthwest Jan 2015 #80
Interesting information. oldandhappy Jan 2015 #36
I have found this footage, direct from the Commissioner's office... Buns_of_Fire Jan 2015 #42
Go Hawks! flying rabbit Jan 2015 #47
They sound guilty as hell. nilesobek Jan 2015 #58
Heat could also be applied externally. "Conditioning" and "warming up" of balls is... Faryn Balyncd Jan 2015 #76
And in other news, the NFL vows to suspend Marshawn Lynch for the wrong color shoes. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2015 #86
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
9. They were inflated somewhere else?
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 11:49 PM
Jan 2015

And this supply of hot air - only used on the Patriots balls - was connected to the pump how?

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
45. Okay, so put this together for me
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 01:21 AM
Jan 2015

What sort of apparatus are you assuming is used to heat air and provide it to a compressor for inflating footballs?

dumbcat

(2,120 posts)
61. The act of compressing the air heats it
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 11:13 AM
Jan 2015

due to the work involved in compressing it. It goes into the compressor holding tank much hotter than ambient temperature. If it is immediately used to inflate the ball, it will be inflated with hot air. However, if the balls are not inflated immediately, the heated air in the tank will begin to transfer heat to the surrounding environment and soon reach equilibrium with the ambient air temp. If the balls are inflated then they will be inflated with cooler, ambient temperature air. IIRC, NY is a mechanical engineer, he can back this up.

It's physics, it's what engineers do. Trust us. You do law, and we trust you.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
62. Two things
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 11:35 AM
Jan 2015

First off, I don't know whom you mean to refer as "us". My undergraduate and graduate degrees are in engineering, and my thesis work involved a lot of thermodynamics (semiconductor crystal growth from molten metal solutions). The law degree came later, and in order to be a registered patent attorney, a science or engineering undergrad degree is required.

Yes, compressing air does heat it. That is why bicycle pumps get hot, among other things.

However, that effect would not be unique to the Patriots balls and not the Colts balls.

So, you are saying that this proposed thermodynamic effect varies as a function of the name of the team which uses the balls?

dumbcat

(2,120 posts)
63. Very good
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 11:57 AM
Jan 2015

I'm quite happy and impressed to hear that you have the engineering degrees. It increases my already high respect for your posts even more.

So, then think about this scenario. The compressor is turned on and pumps the 30-60 gal tank up to 120 psi or so. It gets hot, right? Now, the Pats balls are inflated first, and right away. Then the Colts balls are inflated. There was enough compressed air in the tank that the compressor did not kick on again during the inflation of the 24 balls. Would not the temp of the air going into the later inflated balls be lower? What if there was a break between receiving and inflating the Pat's balls and the Colt's balls?

But, as I understand it from all the conflicting accounts, each team prepares and delivers its own balls to the refs, so there would be no correlation between the inflation air temperatures anyway. They are not all inflated by the refs before the game. This is my current biggest problem. I am not seeing any consistency in accounts of how the balls are prepared, "certified", measured, documented, or chain of custody before a game, or at the halftime check point. In reality, it is all speculation to me at this point.

What do you think of the possibility that some corrupt refs deflated the Pat's ball at halftime? Possible?

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
64. "Would not the temp of the air going into the later inflated balls be lower?"
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 01:06 PM
Jan 2015

What is your calculation for the requisite temperature drop required to create a 2 psi decrease in pressure?

dumbcat

(2,120 posts)
65. It depends, as you say
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 02:02 PM
Jan 2015

on the delta volume of the bladder, so I don't actually know, though I suspect (with no proof) that the delta V would be very small. But I do know that the air coming directly out of my 5 HP compressor is definitely hot, and air that has been in the tank for awhile (notice the precise measurement? ) is at ambient temp and cools as it is released.

I didn't mean to start an argument, or even say what really happened, I just wanted folks to know that the temp of the air being used to inflate the balls can vary from ambient for several reasons.

What do you think of the fact that most people are jumping right to the conclusion that someone on the Pat's team must have done it, and not someone looking to get the Pats in trouble or embarrassed, even maybe the refs? Yes, there is the issue of motive, but there could be several.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
68. Let's assume a constant volume
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 03:21 PM
Jan 2015

As a first order approximation, taking the elasticity of the bladder out, and assuming an adiabatically isolated container of constant volume, then what temperature change is required for the reported reduction in pressure.

Engineers do tend to work out the numbers...

dumbcat

(2,120 posts)
69. OK, but don't laugh
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 04:27 PM
Jan 2015

I used the same basic procedure as in this post by former9thward:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026123544#post21

and so it boiled down to P1/T1=P2/T2. After doing the pressure to pascal and °F to °K conversions I came up with about 91° F. Thus, if the ball was inflated to 12.5 psi with air directly from a compressor at 91°F (which is entirely possible, mine is much warmer than that), when it cools to 51°F ambient temp the pressure could drop 2 psi to 10.5 psi.

I'm an EE and not a gas guy, so it's been a long time since college Fluid Dynamics (like, 45 years!) And I ran this quick with only the stupid algebraic calculator on the PC rather than a proper RPN HP calculator and an internet conversion calculator (see how I am subtly building my excuses here?) So I wouldn't bet a lot of my own money on the result without further checking and another opinion.

What do you get?

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
74. Can I at least chuckle?
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 01:56 AM
Jan 2015

In this thread, among others, you repeatedly refer to the temperature of your compressor, as if that had any bearing on the temperature of the gas when introduced into a larger volume. This indicates failure to understand both why your compressor gets hot, and why the temperature in the compressor chamber will not be the temperature of the gas in the receptacle.

Your compressor gets hot from the work you are putting into the gas in the piston (or an offset rotary vane chamber) in order to compress that gas into a small volume so that the pressure in the compression chamber EXCEEDS that of the larger volume chamber into which you want to pump the gas.

In other words, if the gas is going to go anywhere, you need to establish a NON-EQUILIBRIUM condition between the compression vessel and the receptacle, and you need to throttle the flow of gas from the compression vessel into the receptacle. I put non-eq in all caps, because it should always be a red flag when you are applying a model which has a built-in assumption of equilibrium conditions.

So, where does that work go, aside from heating the walls of the compression vessel. Well, one of the places it goes is in the EXPANSION of the gas after passing through the throttle (the inflation needle) into the receptacle.

Let me ask you this. If you use your compressor to fill an air tank, and then later use that air tank to inflate something else, how does the nozzle feel?

It feels right fucking COLD, that's how it feels. Same as using s CO2 cartridge to inflate a bicycle tire. If you aren't careful with those, you'll freeze your finger off, which is why bike inflation kits include a neoprene insulator for the cartridge.

You keep mentioning that the compressor gets hot, but you don't mention whether the air coming out the nozzle matches the temperature of your compressor when pumping. It doesn't, and it can't, because the Joule-Thompson Effect (the cooling of a gas when it expands) is doing the opposite of what is happening inside the compressor.

You know this. Anyone who has ever used a can of "dust off" to clean their computer keyboard knows this.

You started by saying that compressing a gas makes it hot. That's true, but only HALF the story. At the other end of the pipe, the gas EXPANDS, and thus cools. That's the entire point of "inflating" something.

It is also part of how your refrigerator works. Does the compressor get hot? Sure does. Does the inside of your refrigerator get hot? No. The working principle of a refrigerator is to compress a fluid (and using a phase change for extra thermodynamic oomph), let it expand, and to use that cooling from expansion to make the inside of the refrigerator cold, while venting the heat from the compressor to that thingie on the back of the refrigerator.




Hassin Bin Sober

(26,330 posts)
34. Maybe they were inflated at the higher end of the range????
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 12:13 AM
Jan 2015

When it gets really cold out my tire pressure light goes on in my truck.


Don't have a dog in this fight.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
5. Your thought is wrong.
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 11:46 PM
Jan 2015

Same air was used to inflate the PAtriots balls and the Colts balls.

The NFL has ruled out temperature as a factor in the cheating scandal.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
8. The home team provides all 24 balls.
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 11:49 PM
Jan 2015

They inflate the balls to specs and hand them over to the refs.

Same devices inflate all balls.

You are wrong.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
27. Precisely, deflating the balls is the second time the cheaters were caught cheating.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 12:07 AM
Jan 2015

In addition to the required $275K in fines, I hope they lose a first round draft pick.

Regardless, nothing will be announced until after the super bowl.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
29. No hate.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 12:09 AM
Jan 2015

Just wanting to see cheaters who are caught red handed cheating get the appropriate punishment.

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
37. The fact that Belichick is now pointing fingers at Brady
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 12:21 AM
Jan 2015

...tells us they aren't denying the balls were doctored; so all 'outside air temperature' defenses are now just a bunch of hot air.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
38. Some poor worker at the bottom will get the blame.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 12:22 AM
Jan 2015

And whoever it was probably had standing orders from the top, but they will be fired and the Patriots will be fined, maybe lose a draft pick, and it will all be swept under the cheating rug again.

former9thward

(32,017 posts)
52. He did not.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 02:03 AM
Jan 2015

Do you think you were the only one who saw the press conference? He said no such thing. Don't try and mislead people.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
49. If your theory were true, they would have announced it days ago.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 01:34 AM
Jan 2015

But there is no innocent explanation so they're reduced to people pointing fingers at each other.

Justice

(7,188 posts)
77. Do you have a link to that statement?
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 06:04 AM
Jan 2015

I have followed this closely and have seen no such statement.

NRaleighLiberal

(60,015 posts)
13. I think many are confusing PSI with actual weight differences that can be sensed.
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 11:50 PM
Jan 2015

The difference in weight between the two PSI measurements is the weight of a dollar bill.

It shows the general ignorance of science in the media - and the public in general.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
50. And yet Tom Brady, a perfectionist, says the perfect number is 12.5.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 01:36 AM
Jan 2015

One minute he sounds like he can tell the difference, the next he pretends he can't.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
60. He's not talking about the weight of the ball
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 10:59 AM
Jan 2015

he's talking about how the ball feels in his hands dependent upon the pressure being exerted outward by the air inside, which is inside of bladder.

If you hold one ball flat in each of your hands you can't tell the difference.

If you squeeze two balls with significant psi differences, you can tell the difference.


In the heat of the game, and only getting the ball when it's snapped to him by the Center, and he either hands it off or passes it, he's not focused on how the ball feels for those few seconds.

He wants to get rid of it as quickly as he can.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
67. If he's so innocent, why isn't he begging for a real investigation to let him off the hook?
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 02:52 PM
Jan 2015

According to him, the League hasn't even bothered to interview him yet.

And he seems undisturbed by that.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
70. He's kind of busy this week.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 05:23 PM
Jan 2015

Solving the NFL's whodunit isn't his job. I've also heard that the delay in the investigation is because the player's union wants to be present at any player interviews.

brush

(53,784 posts)
78. The difference is in the hardness of the ball.
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 07:57 AM
Jan 2015

The under inflated balls are softer and thus easier to grip.

The weight of the balls doesn't even come into it.

Lefta Dissenter

(6,622 posts)
41. thanks
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 12:34 AM
Jan 2015

I was wondering what the difference would be, but not wondering enough to actually look it up anywhere. I don't even WATCH football, but find this mildly interesting.

dpibel

(2,832 posts)
56. The issue is not the weight
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 03:02 AM
Jan 2015

The issue is how hard the ball is.

It seems that there are a number of former quarterbacks around who are pretty sure you can tell the difference in how much give there is.

The idea is that an underinflated ball is easier to grip, especially when wet.

Not that it's lighter.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
71. An underinflated ball also flies shorter and slower.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 05:26 PM
Jan 2015

A competitive disadvantage that the media chooses to ignore.

dpibel

(2,832 posts)
72. Where's the zone?
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 11:30 PM
Jan 2015

Not so much of a disadvantage if the team specializes in short passes.

Any guesses what the Pats do?

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
73. Hence the 12th ball.
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 12:54 AM
Jan 2015

Those devilish Pats had one in reserve for Hail Mary situations, because nobody cheats better than the Patriots!

brush

(53,784 posts)
82. The rebound effect when the ball is compressed by being kicked
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 12:24 PM
Jan 2015

You don't get that when the ball is thrown.

brush

(53,784 posts)
84. Thanks for the video post
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 01:06 PM
Jan 2015

Guess it proves that the deflated ball flies half an inch less I guess?

The people responsible for the deflation of the balls knew none of that of course.

In the cold those balls get hard as hell, and the rain makes them even harder to grip so what they were

probably after was a softer ball that would be able to be grasped better for throwing.

ESPN had a live demo on with a properly inflated ball, an overly inflated one and an under inflated ball.

Mark Brunell, the ex-Jacksonville QB and Jerome "the Bus" Bettis, the ex-Steelers running back were the testers.

Neither was told which ball was which but both picked the under inflated ball out immediately.

Brunell noted that the under inflated ball was easier to indent with finger pressure and thus easier to throw.

Bettis caught a pass from Brunell and felt there was no difference in catching the balls but the under inflated ball was softer and thus easier for him to hold onto as a running back.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
85. No problem.
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 02:30 PM
Jan 2015

I think it demonstrates that it's not an open and shut case, but that the perception is that there is an advantage gained. It would be stupid of me to argue it makes no difference, but I'm still unconvinced that it makes a significant difference in game conditions. Marginal, at best. Of course, at this level of competition, that's a good enough motive - look at swimmers shaving their body hair for .001 second, or speed skater's uniforms, golfer's clubs and balls, etc... (All of which are legal until they change the rules.)

I'm not condoning cheating, but trying to keep it in perspective. A guest on Chris Hayes' show (I think) compared it to a major traffic investigation over a failure to signal a lane change.

The NFL just needs to admit they screwed up when they changed the rules on this under pressure from the QB's (Brady included) and rethink the whole issue.

As for the Pats, I don't see anyone falling on their sword for this. (Unless Kraft grants them a magic parachute to survive the fall.) The league will probably fine them $25G x 11 and maybe a draft pick. No individual punishment for Brady or BB without direct proof of complicity.

brush

(53,784 posts)
87. I agree. They can't really do anything this close to the Super Bowl.
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 03:35 PM
Jan 2015

Certainly can't suspend Brady or forfeit the previous game.

It'll probably be a fine announced in a couple of months like you say.

madinmaryland

(64,933 posts)
22. Uhmmm. Brady & Belicheat's wife was breast feeding a baby in an Olive Garden
Thu Jan 22, 2015, 11:58 PM
Jan 2015

in Midtown Manhattan while Belicheat was screaming at the patrons in the restaurant.



I have to retire this picture now:




 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
80. And this strikes me as part of why I loathe sports culture. Care to explain to me why that is
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 09:09 AM
Jan 2015

'funny' and not simply bigoted? Thanks.

Buns_of_Fire

(17,181 posts)
42. I have found this footage, direct from the Commissioner's office...
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 12:35 AM
Jan 2015

This could result in cats and dogs living together, MASS HYSTERIA!!! So who ya gonna call?

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
58. They sound guilty as hell.
Fri Jan 23, 2015, 08:55 AM
Jan 2015

But it doesn't matter on Super Sunday because old man Brady is going to be picking the sod out of his helmet. Win or lose the Seahawks are going to pound this arrogant old man.

Faryn Balyncd

(5,125 posts)
76. Heat could also be applied externally. "Conditioning" and "warming up" of balls is...
Sat Jan 24, 2015, 02:59 AM
Jan 2015


.... extensively practiced, including scuffing, sanding, soaking in water (not on game day), sanding.

Brady say he inspected each ball 5 hours before kick-off, and they were inspected for pressure 2 hours before kick-off, at which time the officials kept control of them until kick-off.

Let's envision a literal warming up procedure long enough to raise the temperature internally to the 90's (still cooler than skin temperature). This could probably be done either with warm air inflation, but also through external warming.

The 40 degree drop to outside temperature could account for the 2 PSI drop after temperature equilibration, but would not on balls that were not warmed.




Certainly needle decompression is a possibility, but some "conditioning/warm-up" protocol involving heat prior to the official inspection 2 hours before game time has the interesting bonus feature that it might allow those involved to rationalize their actions, claim ignorance of the laws of physics, claim they were simply legally warming up/conditioning the balls, and deny any knowledge that this would result in a pressure change, and hope that if caught, that their claims would result in a less than harsh penalty.










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