Pope's "rabbit" comments are coming into context.

[Fred Sanders]

Last edited Tue Jan 20, 2015, 05:06 PM - Edit history (6)

Verbatim quote, translated from Italian:

"Some think that - excuse me if I use that word - that in order to BE good Catholics, we have to BE like rabbits? - no. No. Responsible paternity. That is clear".

CNN Banner: Pope: Parents Shouldn't BREED "Like Rabbits"


Context is important. The message I got, with the still partial, but not full context, was a message FOR birth control.

He was responding to some question from a journalist aboard the plane as he flew back to Rome from The Phillipines, where 6,000,000 folks.....estimated.....attended a Mass.

More context to come? Maybe a correction by the.....journalists of American mass media?

Fox?

.....................

Edit: Did not know this:

"Francis has largely shied away from emphasizing church teaching on hot-button issues, saying the previous two popes made the teaching well-known and that he wants to focus on making the church a place of welcome, not rules. But his comments were clearly a nod to the local church, which recently lost a significant fight when President Benigno Aquino III pushed through a reproductive health law that allows the government to provide artificial birth control to the poor."

I do not agree with the opinions expressed in the highly editorialized report from cbc.ca, no link.

Apparently President Aquino had a struggle with the Catholic Church in the Phillipines over providing these services to the poor, who are really, really poor.

Edit:

Video and translation at post #36.

[Ninga]

1. Sorry Fred. This pope doens't mince words. He didn't say what he was For. The only thing he did

was how Catholics don't have to Be. The Vatican (pope) has not changed its stance on birth control. Can't use it.

[Fred Sanders]

2. I think the simple politics of the Church prevent him from being more explicit.

The priests and Cardinals of the Phillipines, to who this message was directed, have a lot more power in that populous nation than in the West. His message was for them. Birth control is triumphant in the West among Catholics, not so much in some other places.

[Ninga]

3. Take comfortant then, reading between the lines. I don't happen to hear his words the same as

you do...

Actions speak louder than words. No action out the Vatican thus far....

[Fred Sanders]

4. I understand, but the change has to come from the bottom in the Phillipines, and from the top.

I would love to see the whole video tape and not the chopped clips on American media.

[tblue37]

5. You mean Pope Francis, I assume. nt

[Fred Sanders]

7. ..............

Thanks.

[Arugula Latte]

6. I think about how much better off this planet would have been if the RCC had never existed.

Population is just one factor in that.

[merrily]

8. Yes, abstinence is a form of birth control. Not especially effective in the real world, though.

I think there a couple of prongs to things some Catholics were taught, whether it was official doctrine or not. One, of course, was not to use contraception other than abstinence, maybe also the rhythm method, but that's all. The other was that having lots of babies, "if God should bless you with them," is a good thing. So maybe you shouldn't even use abstinence and rhythm. But, definitely nothing else.

I think the Pope is trying to cut back from the language I bolded.

[Fred Sanders]

9. My opinion is that he saw first hand that folks in Phillipines in poverty are having 10 children as

means of personal income support and it is being encouraged by the right wing that rule the Catholic Church in that nation.

He has said he thinks the ideal family size is 3, it is more like 6 in The Phillipines.

And he is encouraging all of them, in that nation, to take another look at birth control. The country is choked with people. He saw that.

[msongs]

15. and they are all catholic children who can give their last pennies to the church nt

[Fred Sanders]

17. You think he saw that vast sea of poverty caused in part by explosive population..and wants more?

For what a family making a dollar a day can provide? The Catholic Church in The
Phillipines is right wing reactionary, to use a term, and Francis does not strike me as a hater of the poor and left wing Catholics.

There is a thread on that in DU somewhere with fairy convincing argument about Francis's internal political struggle with the right wing leaders in the Church.

I am just struggling to look at the big picture and make sense of loving the poor on one hand, and enslaving them to right wing Catholic hierarchy in the Phillipines.

[merrily]

16. Didn't at least one of the news stories specifically say birth control was still

prohibited?

Also, I find it hard to believe this was the first time he's seen large Catholic families in poverty. Hell, I've seen them and I was born in the USA.

[Fred Sanders]

21. I have been to more than one third world country, seeing it is even not believing the abject poverty

[PeaceNikki]

10. Oh, no, no no.. No, he is 100% AGAINST BIRTH CONTROL.

He just thinks people should stop fucking.

http://www.rte.ie/news/world/2015/0120/673941-pope-family-comments/

Pope Francis said that Catholic teaching on birth control does not mean that people should behave like "rabbits" and have large unplanned families.

Standing firm against artificial birth control, the Pope said he knew many ways allowed by the church that could ensure families only had as many children as they wished.

The Pope said: "Some think, and excuse the term, that to be good Catholics, they must be like rabbits."

[Fred Sanders]

24. That is a highly editorialized report that relies on the same misquote.

[PeaceNikki]

26. Ermahgerd, no.

[Fred Sanders]

11. That is apparently not the quote, mine is from a CNN broadcast:

Verbatim quote, translated from Italian:

"Some think that.....excuse me if I use that word. That in order to BE good Catholics, we have to BE like rabbits. No. Responsible paternity. That is clear".


I checked the video and the closed captioned oral translation from CNN and my TV closed caption and that is accurate.

Edit: more accurate edited quote in OP. The video is posted with captions.

[merrily]

18. I don't think the CNN version is inconsistent with my post.

[Fred Sanders]

22. "Breed" versus "be" is significant. Adding the rest of the sentence is significant.

[merrily]

33. How you get, "Use condoms, not only the rhythm method and abstinence" out of those differences

is not clear to me.

[NYC Liberal]

35. And what was it about rabbits that he was making the analogy from?

Their breeding. It's the same meaning. And the rest of the sentence solidifies that even further.

[Fred Sanders]

37. That is a slightly different issue.

[Fred Sanders]

36. I think I found the video, in the middle of the report :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2917146/Pope-Catholics-dont-like-rabbits.html

It is translated the same way as I had heard from CNN.

[Humanist_Activist]

12. You do realize he is advocating, unofficially, for NFP, go ahead and google it...

colloquially it could be called the rhythm method.

Its also notoriously unreliable.

[Fred Sanders]

13. He is not. I know what it is.

[Humanist_Activist]

14. You are implying that the Pope is advocating for some type of birth control...

I'm just mentioning the ONLY method that he supports.

Neither the Pill nor Condoms are being endorsed here, do not pretend the Pope is someone he is not.

He also, in the same speech, slammed "gender theory", which translates to feminism and homosexuality, but I don't see Pope fans mentioning that, and instead downplaying it.

[Fred Sanders]

19. I am saying it outright. What was his full statement on "gender theory"?

[Humanist_Activist]

34. Here you go...

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Elaborating on comments he made in Manila Jan. 16 about "ideological colonization that tries to destroy the family," the pope offered a 20-year-old example of an unnamed government official, apparently in his native Argentina, who was offered a loan to build schools for poor children on the condition she assign students a textbook on "gender theory."

Catholic leaders often use the term "gender theory" to refer to ideas that question or deny the God-given nature of sex differences and the complementarity of man and woman as the basis of the family.

Pope Francis said African bishops attending the October 2014 Synod on the Family had complained of similar restrictions on funding for projects in their countries,

"Why do I say ideological colonization? Because they use a people's need as an opportunity to come in and impose their will on children. But this is nothing new. The dictatorships of the last century did the same thing; they came in with their doctrine. Think of the Balilla. Think of the Hitler Youth," the pope said.


http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1500255.htm

[beam me up scottie]

38. "Think of the Hitler Youth," the pope said...

Wow.

Just fucking wow.


Thanks for the link.

Apologists for the pope seem to be like rabbits too.

[Fred Sanders]

44. In context it is not what you use to become outraged at all.

"Why do I say ideological colonization? They use a people's need as an opportunity to come in and impose their will on children. But this is nothing new. The dictatorships of the last century did the same thing; they came in with their doctrine. Think of the Balilla. Think of the Hitler Youth," the pope said."

I whole point of my OP is context. And accuracy.

[beam me up scottie]

57. "Gay marriage is 'ideological colonization,' says Vatican spokesman"

In an address to more than 1,000 Filipino families in Manila on Jan. 16, Pope Francis decried the “new ideological colonization that tries to destroy the family.”

The Pope also warned against increasing efforts “to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life.”

The Holy Father made similar statements in defense of marriage earlier in the day, as he said Mass in Manila's cathedral: “Proclaim the beauty and truth of the Christian message to a society which is tempted by confusing presentations of sexuality, marriage and the family.”

He then warned the faithful against “powerful forces which threaten to disfigure God’s plan for creation and betray the very values which have inspired and shaped all that is best in your culture.”

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/gay-marriage-is-ideological-colonization-says-vatican-spokesman-89365/

Stop pretending this is about context, Fred, nobody's buying what you're selling.

FUCK the pope and every one of his apologists.

Sideways.

[Fred Sanders]

58. Seems kind of generic comments to me, but interpretation is individual. And the statements are

again chopped up in your article pasted. Also, your first sentence.

[beam me up scottie]

63. LOL! Individual interpretation? That's from the fucking VATICAN.

Do you really think they got it wrong?

Individual interpretation my ass.

What a piece of work you are.

[Fred Sanders]

64. Ditto.

[beam me up scottie]

65. Look, I agree with a lot of your posts on other issues

and I think you're a good guy, but when you run interference for a misogynistic homophobe on DU you gotta expect some blowback.

If you want context look at everything else the guy said about gay marriage.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6107342

[Bluenorthwest]

20. He's 100% opposed to all forms of birth control. That same speech was full of anti gay and anti

feminist diatribes, denigrating and insulting language hurled at good people and their families for the sake of this confused, sexless old man's rantings.

[Fred Sanders]

23. It might be, I have no idea, a full transcript of his address to a 6 million folk live audience

would tell.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. No transript is needed, he is the world's leading anti birth control activist. He and his Church

forbid the use even of condoms to prevent transmission of diseases like AIDS. This is one of the reasons that about 1.5 million people died from it in Africa last year. It is an unspeakable wrong, and it takes some sort of stones to claim the opposite is true while standing on a million and a half dead.

[Fred Sanders]

28. My confusion then is why be such a strong advocate for the poor, say that the ideal family size is

three, say capitalism is bad, etc., then say he encourages as many children as possible, in a country mired in poverty and population explosion?

It is incredibly illogical. It makes more sense that he hid a message of pro birth control to appease the RW in the Phillipines and it got distorted by the instant outrage, factually distorting mass media.

[PeaceNikki]

31. Exactly. It's total BS to try to help poverty and NOT support birth control.

Total and utter bullshit.

[Bluenorthwest]

32. Religion is made of hypocrisy. He's a hypocrite. His views are conflicting, not based in reason

You are looking for consistency? Why?

[AtheistCrusader]

81. Wait, are you appealing to LOGIC in defense of a man who represents his invisible friend?

The RCC/Pope, when speaking ex cathedra has been quite clear on its position on birth control of any sort. Period. End of story.

In America, fortunately, most catholics disregard this doctrine. Around the world, not so much. They implement the doctrine much more verbatim. It is killing people.

No, you want logic? Logic would mean hundreds of millions of Catholics disregarding the sexual/reproductive advice of a 78 year old professional virgin.

[PeaceNikki]

29. EVERY interpretation, in EVERY language says or is headlined with:

"Birth control ban doesn't mean breed 'like rabbits,' Pope says"

Bolding mine.

[Fred Sanders]

30. Yes. True. Today. But look at how chopped up the quote is. Have you seen the video, from the plane?

It was in Italian, so there had to be a translation but the video would tell, if the audio is good.

[snooper2]

42. what if the audio was ah just okay?

[Fred Sanders]

43. You would have to ask someone who speaks Italian about that, the video with audio-captions is at

post #36.

[Act_of_Reparation]

27. Oh, it's an argument for birth control, alright...

... by way of the only methods his church approves... abstinence and the rhythm method. One doesn't work, and the other... well, priests can't even be relied upon to use it.

[beam me up scottie]

39. And when nfp methods fail women are forced to become incubators for the Church.

Of course he's counting on that since it's the only way to keep the pews and coffers full.

I like this pope!

He's a breath of fresh air!

A real progressive voice for catholics!

[Act_of_Reparation]

48. Yeah, he's a real revolutionary, alright!

He's sure distancing himself from his predecessor... by reiterating everything his predecessor already said! While wearing black tennis shoes!

[beam me up scottie]

60. And he drives a Renault !!!

And and and he lives in a drafty room with no running water in the slums of Vatican City.

What more do you expect him to do for the poor?

Let them use modern methods of birth control so they can lift themselves out of poverty?

Ludicrous!

[Act_of_Reparation]

66. Well, I've been told "you gotta start SOMEWHERE"...

So, I guess that "somewhere" is back in the 19th century... where the Catholic church has been since, like... uh... the 19th century.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. This thread marks a whole new level of dishonesty about Francis. This shit gets old, folks.

He's anti choice, he's anti gay. If you find those things acceptable, fine, you are a conservative and you should be proud of that. But it is utterly contemptible to support an anti gay,anti choice political figure and pretend they are pro gay and pro choice. That's is simply wrong. His fans need to stop that.

[PeaceNikki]

41. Yeah, it's literally trying to say he is FOR the thing he and the church are vehemently against

[Bluenorthwest]

45. The most telling part is that none of the many people who know better are posting to correct this

bullshit. They have no objection to utter dishonesty. This is the same shit they pull with 'who am I to judge' which came from a terrible anti gay speech. They are not honest, and they don't care to be. I think it is the anti gay attitude, they feel it is ok to lie to and about LGBT people and women who use contraception 'cause we are sinny old sinners.

[Fred Sanders]

46. Have you seen the video and the translation?

[Bluenorthwest]

47. Stop it Fred. The Church and the Pope are stridently against any form of birth control other than

not fucking. The forbid, as I have already told you, even condoms to prevent AIDS. The level of dishonesty you and other promoters of religion engage in is part of why I don't care for religion all that much. I have no respect for bullshit. This is bullshit.

[PeaceNikki]

49. To back up what BNW just said...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/07/pope-francis-chastity_n_5105240.html

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Francis has praised church workers in Africa who promote chastity as a key way to prevent the spread of HIV.

Francis was speaking Monday at the Vatican to bishops from Tanzania.

Many non-Catholic health care workers advocate condoms as an important weapon to fight the spread of the HIV virus that causes AIDS. The Vatican opposes condom use because church teaching forbids contraception.

It bears repeating: they do not even condone condom use to prevent the spread of HIV.

[Act_of_Reparation]

52. Yes, they would rather people die than use profilactics.

Yet, not a week goes by that someone here doesn't fall over themselves ecstatically praising the liberalism if the new friendly Pope. It's sickening.

[PeaceNikki]

54. I feel exactly the same way.

[Act_of_Reparation]

50. Why? Does he say something about condoms?

Birth control pills? Diaphragms? Depo? Any of the myriad scientifically-proven effective forms of birth control the Church has stood, and still stands, steadfastly against?

Give me a fucking break. When the repukes push an abstinence only program, we tear them to shreds. The fucking pope does it and we sing his fucking praises? What the hell is wrong with this place?

[Fred Sanders]

51. There is no evidence he was pushing abstinence etc., or birth control, to the Phillipino people he

was speaking to. His message was between the lines for birth control - in context only available if you watch the video and listen to the tone and delivery and factor in the politics of the nation he was just leaving, government and Church politics.

The other argument is about the word "breed" not being said.

But I guess that will come out in the next few hours or days.

[Act_of_Reparation]

53. Logic, Fred.

Observe:

A. Frankie tells people to have only as many children as they can afford.

B. Frankie doesn't want you fucking unless you're planning on having kids.

Conclusion: STOP FUCKING.

[beam me up scottie]

59. Oh logic schmogic.

Just take it on faith that the op knows what the pope really meant.

We should just ignore everything else the two faced misogynist said on the subject.

Because stuff.

[Warren Stupidity]

79. WHY DO YOU HATE ALL CHRISTIANS!?

When you punches the pope you is punching America!

This is why something horrible.

[beam me up scottie]

84. I have to live by teh evul athIEst creed, Warren.

Just being true to my faith because DaWkinz!!1!


The pope better hope that Jesus' daddy hates gays and uppity women more than the bigots who oppress them.

[Bluenorthwest]

55. How does this OP fit in with the one about FoxNews where you were ranting about who is Catholic

but did not wish to talk about their largest non Murdoch shareholder being Muslim? I thought that was sort of anti Catholic, this one is like a defense of the Pope. You are all over the place. Rhetoric from the other day:
"WSJ owner, Liar, good Catholic altar boy and all round Xenophobe, mhomophobe and Islamaphobe Rupert Murdoch and company, bought the WSJ for a pretty Australian penny because it gave his fascist outfit some credibility, because folks do not see through the cloak.

Then he created Fox News and put kindred spirit Roger Ailes, another good Cafholic altar boy...."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026105113


I'm just looking for some consistency, some way to call your work a piece, to see a through line....

[Fred Sanders]

56. Consistently means agreeing on the facts before launching into the debate, to me.

I think the facts on his comments on the plane by Francis were terribly misquoted and taken out of context and my debate point is that he was misinterpreted on their meaning regarding birth control in The Phillipines.

And what is wrong with a little allegory and satire once the facts are agreed on?

You need to please watch the video.

P.S. I have no problem talking about the Saudi Wahibi prince who's is an 8% shareholder in Fox, it is a massive hypocrisy by Fox.

[Bluenorthwest]

61. To me a shred of consistency is required to prevent incoherncy. Something to consider.

Even a construct needs parameters.

[Fred Sanders]

62. You may be confusing consistency with complexity and nuance. You should see some of my other

anti-Fox and "anti-religion" posts.

[Warren Stupidity]

67. This just in: pope says contradictory shit that makes no sense.

Pope praises big families after breeding 'like rabbits' remark made headlines

On Wednesday, he said it gave him great "consolation and hope to see so many large families who welcome children as a true gift of God."

He said claims that big families cause poverty are "simplistic."

http://www.startribune.com/world/289267241.html

Pull out! Don't pull out! Whatever.

Actual scientific studies have shown that yes, Frank, large families lock the under developed world into poverty, and that education, particularly education of women, and access to birth control, and empowerment of women to take control of their reproduction are critical to ending poverty. And guess who is standing in the way of the empowerment? Frank is, along with the rest of the patriarchal misogynist religious moralists who "know better".

[Fred Sanders]

68. Since he did not say "breed" for starters....watch the video at post 36. It is not contradictory if he was

entirely misquoted and misinterpreted, and no one wants to research the context as I have, is it?

[Warren Stupidity]

70. Did you want a larger straw to grasp onto?

[Fred Sanders]

71. It is a war on stupidity.....you hate the Pope with a burning passion, how many different ways can

you type it? We get it, no paradoxes or nuance allowed.

[Warren Stupidity]

77. Actually I don't hate the pope. I have praised him when he has done good things, like with Cuba.

However when he is a bone headed idiot I think the attempts to gloss that over are ludicrous.

Plus there is the whole misogyny and homophobia thing. That shit is awful and is not changing and is unforgivable and is a real problem with pope worshipping here.

[Fred Sanders]

80. I would be Ok with discussing the video and its message if you have watched it. Not demanding

anything, I just need to know we have at least the basic facts agreed upon.

No agreement on facts is just going to mean unproductive argument.

[Warren Stupidity]

82. I note that you made a specific allegation against me and that when I categorically refuted it

you promptly changed the subject.

That, Fred, is a dishonest tactic.

[Fred Sanders]

83. Dishonest is wanting to criticize a statement and refusing to look at it at all.

[Orsino]

72. For controlling birth rate, but against birth control?

"Stop fucking so much" is not a policy. It's wishful thinking, and adds nothing to any debate on the subject.

[Fred Sanders]

73. And that was useful in the debate on the subject? You want debate, fine, you want argument and

outrage, not playing....watch the video.

Why was he on a plane?

[Orsino]

74. Nothing less than real birth control will be useful. n/t

[Fred Sanders]

75. The man is politically constrained from saying that, more so in Phillipines...he has said things

between the lines before....."who am I to judge?", remember? The same political restraint that prevents Obama from saying he wants torture prosecutions, restrains him.

Watch the video, know the politics of the Philippines, the abject poverty, not even Breadbags for their shoes because they have no shoes, and the heavy influence of the Church there...watch the video.

Unless you have been to a nation with a daily wage of 1 dollar, you can not imagine the depth and breadth of the poverty.

Do you really think having witnessed that the message was to have more children....like rabbits?

That is absurd, that is not what he said.

You can not turn the Titanic around on a dime.

Watch the video.

[Orsino]

76. Very much so.

If any pope can ease the church's grip on dogma, it's this one. I believe that he is tacitly encouraging Catholics to lobby him for the change I think he knows is needed. By presenting the faithful with a ludicrous paradox, he is (consciously or otherwise) encouraging critical thought. That's not nothing.

I can only hope that the faithful will take up the debate and demand change--or abandon a church that refuses to evolve.

[Fred Sanders]

78. I think he is preparing the battlefield, he has made more enemies within the Church than all the

other Popes combined this century.

There are a lot of parralells between the careers and trials and tribulations of Francis and
Obama.

They are transformational figures, not the wanted revolutionary figures, and I remember the French Revolution took 70 years to shake out....baby Papal steps......for now.

[Bluenorthwest]

85. I'm so very sick of the misrepresentation of that 'who am I to judge' snippette from people who

have not read the entire nasty diatribe against what he calls 'the gay lobby' that contained that one bit of sarcasm. The continued suggestion that he was saying that about LGBT people is just a lie. He was talking about celibate people. The entire speech was about how same sex attracted people must not have relationships, communities or organizations. It was a very intolerant and Medieval rant overall.
It just gets old. The fact that people are so extremely dishonest about this very important issue. It is the essence of privileged behavior, of the religious and heterosexual sorts.
Basically, the use of this sort of duplicitous spin indicates a lack of respect for the issue and the advocates of that issue. That means the lack of honesty is in itself a symptom of the bigotry being discussed.
The whole thing is similar to what FoxNews does with every story. All the ethics of Murdoch without the glitzy graphics.

[skepticscott]

86. Fine, then...IN THE CONTEXT of a speech about birth control

what aspect of "being" like rabbits OTHER than breeding excessively are you saying he might have meant? Give us some alternative possibilities, please. If you're going to pretend that there are some, but that you just can't think think of them, or that you can't presime to read his mind, please don't weary our ears. That's just disingenuous nonsense, especially for someone who's been harping on "context" for the whole thread, and proves what was obvious to everyone else all along, from the CONTEXT.