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Is LBJ being treated unfairly? (Original Post) tavernier Jan 2015 OP
No, he's not being treated unfairly. elleng Jan 2015 #1
Sure, but Vietnam tkmorris Jan 2015 #2
As the recordings from his presidency are released, We see a Politician dealing something he hated. happyslug Jan 2015 #5
Probably MFrohike Jan 2015 #3
great post, sums it up very well. kwassa Jan 2015 #4

elleng

(130,974 posts)
1. No, he's not being treated unfairly.
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 12:26 AM
Jan 2015

I was there too.

He clearly had a lot of things going on, accomplished a lot, and failed in some ways. Recognizing the complexity of a presidency is not 'unfair.'

He WAS a staunch supporter of civil rights, but had to deal with the 'old' southerners in congress, and he knew his actions would result in losing them for Dems.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
5. As the recordings from his presidency are released, We see a Politician dealing something he hated.
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 01:56 AM
Jan 2015

LBJ noted from day one that Vietnam was going to be a milestone around him. Since the fall of China to Mao in 1949, only Cuba had fallen to Communism, but the "Who lost of China" was still being used as a campaign slogan against the Democrats (and added to that was "Who lost Cuba&quot . The Red Scare of the the late 1940s and 1960s were mostly over by 1964, but parts of it still echoed among a large set of Americans, thus permitting the lost of another country to Communism was a political no go for any politician of the era.

Thus, the majority of Americans supported the War in Vietnam till the summer of 1968. How could ANY American President go against the will of the people AND still get his domestic program through congress? Yes, George W. Bush did it (The Majority of Americans NEVER supported the War in Iraq, and the support for the War in Afghanistan fell the longer the US stayed in Vietnam, but George W, Bush domestic policy was to cut taxes on the rich which he did before 9/11 and always protected that tax cut, unlike LBJ who in his final budget balanced the budget despite increase spending on Domestic Programs AND the War in Vietnam).

LBJ, unlike Bush, had a plan to increase federal spending to help the poor and the working class, two groups Bush did his best to cut federal spending on. LBJ saw the War in Vietnam as the price he had to pay to get his war on poverty started. Civil Rights without economic rights means nothing and LBJ knew this and thus was willing to spend money on eliminating poverty.

There was a cartoon of the time period, it showed some Generals standing around saying "If it was not for the war on poverty and the Space Race, we could win Vietnam". In the next frame was some social scientists saying "If it was NOT for the Space Race and the War in Vietnam, we can eliminate Poverty" and in the final frame was the NASA Scientist saying "If it was not for the War in Vietnam and the War on Poverty. we could win the Space Race".

That Cartoon put LBJ's dilemma in a way people could understand it. The American People wanted ALL THREE till the summer of 1968 when for the first time a poll showed most Americans wanted to withdraw from Vietnam then to stay in it. LBJ tied to get these people on his side by pulling out some American Forces, but Nixon and his "Secret Plan" to end the War in Vietnam won the election (Yes, Nixon ran as a "Peace Candidate" AND as a "War Candidate" his "Secret Plan appealed to both sides and thus won as both the Peace AND War Candidate).

Side note: Texas went for Humphrey in the 1968 election, something Texas has NOT done since.

Thus even after it was clear Vietnam was un-winnable, LBJ had to stay committed to the war. As one General wrote after the War, the only way the US could win was to cut off supply from North Vietnam via Laos. The only way to do that was to invade Laos, an invasion the Red Chinese had said would trigger a Chinese intervention. To stop an Chinese Intervention meant invading North Vietnam AND attacking Southern China with increase air power. The troops needed for such an expansion would have to come from Europe and a massive expansion of the draft. The Withdraw of Forces from Europe would have left Europe open to a quick Soviet Strike, something the US could NOT afford to permit. The Soviets would also attack Iran and take the Persian Gulf Oil Fields, that Europe was then depended on (The US would NOT become Depended on them till 1969). Thus to defend Europe, the US had to Defend the Persian Gulf and lets not forget Korea.

In short, any expansion of the War in Vietnam was a potential disaster for the US, but how do you tell the American People that while the GOP is saying the War in VIetnam was winnable, but the Democrats were losing it deliberately? It was Korea all over again, to take and hold North Korea meant invading Manchuria, which would require massive US Troops, including Troops from the US AND Europe, again opening up Europe to a Soviet Invasion. In Korea Truman took the heat and drew a line on the 38th parallel that the GOP said was a sell out to the Communists. LBJ was in Congress and heard the GOP lies about Korea and see them being made again in Vietnam. LBJ was in a no win situation, he could NOT let South Vietnam fall, and at the same time not really save South Vietnam. LBJ thus decided the best political thing he could do was intervene to make sure the fall of Vietnam did not occur during his Presidency. When Kissinger went to see De Gaulle in 1969 AFTER Nixon had won election, De Gaulle ask Kissinger when would the US pull out of Vietnam and Kissinger made a comment that would imply weakness to the US, De Gaulle called the decision to stay in Vietnam a huge mistake by the US, De Gaulle told Kissinger to leave it fall to the Communists.

I bring up Kissinger's discussion with De Gaulle for it shows how much anti communism had become a cancer in the US right by the 1960s, the US right wing would prefer the US to stay in Vietnam and lose 10,000 lives a year rather then leave an unpopular government fall to a communist force that the majority of Vietnamese supported. Nixon knew his own right wing and their willingness to fight communism. The Saying "Better dead then Red" was the policy of these right wingers, right wingers Nixon depended on to get elected.

LBJ also knew of these Right Wingers and that they would be a solid base of opposition to any Democrat who let Vietnam "fall" to the Communist. LBJ knew he had to split that vote by showing he would NOT leave Vietnam fall. Remember in 1968 the Anti-War movement was at best a minor force in the election, but these right wingers were a major force. Thus until the Majority of American came to oppose the war, LBJ could not withdraw. When the Majority of Americans did change. in was in the Middle of the Election and a quick change could NOT be done, thus LBJ kept up the war in Vietnam, but did start some withdraw of forces.

US Forces stayed in Vietnam till 1972, when Nixon agreed to terms he had told South Vietnam to refuse to agree to in 1968 (Yes, BEFORE Nixon was President). Yes, Vietnam was a milestone around LBJ, but one he shouldered and did his best to work around for the GOP was waiting in the wings to yell "LBJ and the Democratic Party Lost Vietnam like they lost China and Korea and Eastern Europe". That threat to the Democratic Party was what LBJ did his best to avoid, and thus Vietnam festered during LBJ's administration. LBJ did not have the resources to win in Vietnam, but LBJ could also not leave Vietnam fall, thus it festered.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
3. Probably
Tue Jan 20, 2015, 12:40 AM
Jan 2015

His commitment to civil rights was pretty complex. He clearly said a lot of things, both publicly and privately, that indicate that he understood the evil of segregation in his gut. I can't say whether it was an act or genuine because the man was one of the all time political actors in American history. He may well have done it all out of a cynical political calculation, he may have done it because he believed it was right. Either way, he did it and we're better off for it.

All that being said, the civil rights laws didn't happen in a vacuum. LBJ's legislation was the capstone to the first part of the struggle. He got de jure and de facto segregation made illegal and provided the baseline for defending the vote. He did that because thousands of people did the hard work of making it an issue AND making it clear that those opposed to it were on the wrong side of the moral scale. I'm a big fan of LBJ, but he had the easy work. I'm glad he took the opportunity and ran with it, but I think it's really, really important to remember that it wasn't a president or Congress who made it happen; it was the people of America.

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