When you invade another country, people are going to fight back. WE were the bad guys.

[Hugabear]

I honestly don't see how anyone can consider Chris Kyle to be a "hero" for killing a shitload of people in Iraq and Afghanistan. We were the invaders. We were the occupiers. Were there people trying to kill American soldiers? Of course - but we'd be doing the exact same thing if another country sent its army to invade our land.

It would be like remaking the movie "Red Dawn", but casting the Russians (or North Koreans, I suppose) as the heroes of the movie.

[Octafish]

1. But that would be telling the truth.

And if we want the Wars without End for Profits without Cease we gotta believe in the BFEE motto: Money Trumps Peace and keep our wugs shut.

[arcane1]

2. Like Vietnam, how we tend to regard it as a horrible thing THEY did to US.

Actual context is lost on too many people.

[BlueCaliDem]

30. Vietnam was also about oil, just like Iraq.

This was the true reason why the United States attacked Vietnam. It wasn't about not spreading communism or the USSR (unless the USSR wanted that oil, too). Here is a bit of eye-opening history how this happened:

http://www.luckinlove.com/oilinvietnam.htm
USA KNEW there was MEGA DEPOSITS OF OIL IN VIETNAM IN THE FIFTIES!

And under the guise of fighting communism, in which 58,000 American soldiers and half a million Vietnamese died, they, Standard Oil (Exxon/Rockefellers), found the exact spots in the ocean where those deposits were through dropping bombs.

Even close-up observers would only notice many small explosions
occurring daily in the waters of the South China Sea and thought it was
only part of the 'war.' The U.S. Navy carriers had begun Operation
Linebacker One, and Standard Oil had begun its ten year oil survey of
the seabed off of Vietnam. And the Vietnamese, Chinese and everybody
else around, including the Americans, were none the wiser. The oil
survey hardly cost Standard Oil a nickel, the U.S. taxpayers paid for it."

Marshall Douglas Smith. (2001). Black Gold Hot Gold, Ch. 3

It appears that except for WWII, all the wars that the United States engaged in was just for oil - and the American taxpayer got to pay for it. Great gig if you can get it, right?

[hunter]

51. Oil played a huge roll in the war with Japan.

The Dutch East Indies campaign of 1941–42 was the conquest of the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) by forces from the Empire of Japan in the early days of the Pacific Campaign of World War II. Forces from the Allies attempted unsuccessfully to defend the islands. Indonesia was targeted by the Japanese for its rich oil resources which would become a vital asset during the war. The campaign and subsequent three and a half year Japanese occupation was also a major factor in the end of Dutch colonial rule in Indonesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_Indies_campaign

[BlueCaliDem]

52. So, it has always been about war for oil for the U.S. My father and his family were put in Japanese

concentration camps in Indonesia. It was also the time when the vast wealth of my family was taken away in a single night.

So it appears that even WWII was about oil, too. How disillusioning.

[bvar22]

58. That was only after the USA...

..stopped ALL Oil Exports to Japan.
Japan was pushed into a corner from which they took the only option.

[Basic LA]

3. Similar thoughts.

I was struck by the same thought once, looking out from the deck of my destroyer in Vietnam. That thought changed everything.

[KingCharlemagne]

4. Actually, if the Russians and Chinese invaded with the sole purpose of

capturing Bush, Cheney and other members of the Junta for purposes of putting them on trial for war crimes, then the Russians and Chinese would be the heroes.

I've never seen Red Dawn so not sure I'm responding to your point. If not, please disregard (or let me know I'm full of it

[glasshouses]

5. His job was to save lives

That's what he did

[sibelian]

6. D'aw, poor lad.

[edhopper]

7. And the CIA agents' jobs

were to get information with whatever means they could, including torture. And that is what they did.
Heroes too I guess?

[glasshouses]

11. If anyone in America want's to think of him as a hero that's on them

I look at as he didn't start the war
or any other foot soldier who was there.

They got put in a bad spot and did their job.

That's how I look at it.

People who look at him as hero are people that were never trigger pullers.

[edhopper]

22. Thanks for explaining

[Bandit]

8. His job was to kill people...people who did absolutely nothing to the USA

Justify killing all you wish but it is and always will be wrong...

[kelliekat44]

12. Many, many more lives would have been saved by not invading Iraq in the first place.

His job was to kill. And that is what he did.

[glasshouses]

14. There's not a whole lot of people left who defend the invasion of Iraq

Pretty much everyone knows it was a mistake that cost not just our country
but many countries involved lives and treasure .


The clock is still ticking with more soldiers being deployed there now .

no end in sight..

[on point]

28. Correction. Not a 'mistake', but a premeditated, intentional war crime committed by Bush regime

Small correction perhaps, but the history on this needs to be clear....

[sabrina 1]

53. Killing a child saves lives! How so? The best way to save lives would be to remove

all US Troops from other people's countries. And if our leaders won't that, THEY are the ones putting them in danger.

Some soldiers refused to kill innocent people in Iraq. THEY are the heroes and probably save more lives than this killer did. All his actions did was to make people even more angry at US troops, understandably.

And that, according to some veterans I have spoken to, the torture, the gratuitous killing, see Fallujah eg, endangered soldiers more than anything else.

We have no idea how many troops died as a result of this guy's actions.

[progressoid]

56. Here ya go...

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

9. God I'm tired of glorifying killing.

[SheilaT]

10. My sentiments exactly.

I don't know why anyone is at all surprised that the locals resist invaders.

[tecelote]

16. Or why there are more terrorists today than before the war.

[The Green Manalishi]

18. But that's better for the bottom line!

Gotta have bad guys, or nobody's paying.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

13. Fuck Chris Kyle. Fuck 'em!

[oberliner]

15. He's been shot and killed

So you don't have to worry about him troubling you any more.

[Arugula Latte]

57. That's a shame.

[tclambert]

24. I don't think Chris Kyle was the bad guy.

We were. We sent those soldiers over there. We let Bush and Cheney and Rice and Powell lie us into that war. We didn't do enough to stop the lie. Kyle fell for the lie, too. But he was just dumb enough not to know they lied. We did. I did. I know I didn't fight hard enough to save all those people.

I don't blame Chris Kyle, or the other soldiers, or the pilots who dropped bombs that killed on a massive scale. I blame Bush and Cheney and Rice and Powell and Fox News . . . and myself.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing."

[roody]

31. I was protesting my heart out.

There is no "we" here. The war machine will be fed.

[ncjustice80]

32. All volunteer military though. He CHOSE to be part of it.

[The Green Manalishi]

17. Why don't you love

'Murica?

[catbyte]

19. The jingoistic, empty-headed reactions of so-called "patriots" actually makes me queasy.

The whole "I wanna kill those rag heads too" reaction is just so fucking pathetic and infuriating. What the hell happened to this country? We're sliding backwards at breakneck speed, and I don't see things improving in my lifetime. I will be 60 this year, and I feel that everything I have fought for my entire adult life was a fucking waste of time. And that's mighty depressing. I am so thankful I never procreated.

[FLPanhandle]

20. People didn't have to fight back though

They could have worked to build their own new government. Instead of prolonging a conflict that killed many more on both sides, if they hadn't.

Fighting the forces who came after their leadership was a waste of time and lives.

Of course, war gets people into "who's got the biggest dick contests" and "I'm a man so I have to fight".

There was no reason for the US to get into Iraq and no reason once the leadership changed to continue the fight except for emotions.

[Yupster]

45. There was an interesting scene in Bremer's book

When he took over in Iraq he met with the Iraqi exiles who flew in with the American troops.

They basically told him "thanks, we'll call if we need anything."

Bremer was indignant. To paraphrase Bremer was shocked that the exiles expected the US to leave quickly. Camn you imagine? The people have no history of voting, they don't even have voter registration cards. We will start with municipal elections, then write a Constitution, then move on to Parliamentary elections.

Bremer said the exiles looked at him and said, but you don't have time for that. The Iraqi people will not accept an occupation.

[upaloopa]

21. So when I got my draft notice in 1966 my older brother's

friends said I should go to Canada.
My friends had gotten draft notices or were about to unless they were married or in college.
It was easy for those who didn't have to make that choice to tell us what to do with our lives.
I didn't want to hide out in this country and I didn't want to leave it for the rest of my life.
I went to Vietnam and did my best to stay alive for my tour.
You have to have been there. With nothing to risk it is easy to criticize someone like me.

[The Wizard]

25. I was in the same position in 66

I went to Vietnam with the sole purpose of getting it behind me and walking in my home upright.
The choices weren't easy, and we did what seemed right at the time.
Unfortunately we've become a nation of uniform worshipers because of two primary factors: the way we were neglected by the mainstream when we returned. It was like expecting some recognition and we were essentially ignored by the people who drafted us and sent us into combat to hunt for those who were hunting for us. Second was the images of the uniformed personnel rushing into the World Trade Center to rescue victims only to be crushed under the collapsed buildings.
People still refer to me as a hero, but I tell them no, I was just a kid who was placed in a dangerous situation and got lucky enough to walk in the front door upon returning. I got some medals, but I don't recall doing anything heroic.
I still refer to myself as a well armed civilian rather than a soldier.

[upaloopa]

26. I agree we are not heroes. Still today cousins and

Others send me facebook thanks and I think it is more for them than for me.

[tclambert]

23. Bad guys are always surprised to find out they are the bad guys.

[Dawson Leery]

27. He signed up for the SEALS so he could

go to Iraq and murder Arabs. He has admitted such in his book.

There is no way he can be a hero.

[Hugabear]

40. Yep...and he said he wished he could have killed all of them.

Also in his book, his own words.

[oberliner]

50. This is another lie

He does not say this.

What page did you get this from?

[oberliner]

49. That is BS

That is not why he says he joined the SEALS.

What page in the book did you get that from?

[nilesobek]

29. My father was a combat veteran from the Korean War.

He killed a whole bunch of people too and did not ever talk about until a week before he died. He told me he knew he was dying. He was a squad sargeant in an infrantry division and graduated 3rd in his battalion. He also served as a prison guard at a prison that was made famous for the Chinese jumping the wire and running with their little red books right into machine gun nests. That was my Dad's job after he was shot in the leg. It was considered light duty.

He also told me to never give anyone credibility who brags about killing people and warfare. He was drafted, he had to go. After he died I found this trunk that was full of letters from the war and his medals.

Real heroes don't get drunk and brag. They don't write salacious books either.

[Skittles]

33. I do believe your dad was a wonderful man

yes indeed

[sibelian]

37. It was the same with my grandfather.

He fought in the second world war. He was at the liberation of Belsen. He wouldn't speak about it at all.

There was one time when he nearly said something about something that happened over Christmas during his stint in front of his wife and daughter (my mother) and he he stopped before he said and said he just couldn't talk about it, it was so horrible.

I was thinking about him this morning, that sacrifice he made, was required to make. He lived and aged and spent the last of his life in his garden shed, like a railway car shunted into a siding.

[Cha]

34. That's what we all told bush-cheney before, during and after the US War on Iraq. Sounds like a lot

of reality has been left out of the movie on the pillage of Iraq.

[quadrature]

35. collective punishment works

I realize that revenge, collective punishment,
whatever you call it,
is against the morals of many people,

but sometimes, it is
the only option you have
other than doing nothing.

[CJCRANE]

44. Who was being punished? And how did it work?

I don't think it's ever the only option.

Knowing the full truth should be the first option. Everything should proceed from that.

[arthritisR_US]

36. I'm going to be flame basted but I so agree

with your assessment!

[oberliner]

38. Like when we invaded Germany?

A country that never actually attacked us directly.

[Hugabear]

41. Apples and oranges.

Germany was allied with a country that did directly attack us. Also, Germany had directly attacked several countries that, while not technically allied with us at the time, were still very friendly with us.

I don't recall Iraq or Afghanistan directly attacking anyone.

[oberliner]

46. Fair enough

I do hate Nazi Germany comparisons so I will take that back.

I will assert that good guys/bad guys isn't always so clear cut. On both sides.

Also, Iraq did attack a country that we were very friendly with (Kuwait).

[Hugabear]

60. They did that in 2002?

Kuwait had already been liberated when we invaded Iraq.

[oberliner]

61. No, much earlier

But the same man who was in charge during that invasion continued to be in charge. Also, we had forged agreements with the Kurdish minority that we would act to protect them on numerous occasions, although we did not always live up to those agreements.

I am certainly not meaning to justify the Iraq War - just making the point that it was the extension of our decades long involvement in the region and a variety of promises made. Some people forget the the Senate unanimously voted for regime change back in the 90's.

[malaise]

39. Looks like you're forgetting all those cowboy and Indian movies

Listen - we make up shit for propaganda reasons. We ignore history, right from wrong and most importantly the most obvious of facts - we are the true aggressors, murderers of people in their own lands because we want their resources.

[oberliner]

47. There is a lot of aggression to go around

While it is silly for people to say US good Everyone else bad - it is equally silly to do the same thing in reverse.

[progressoid]

54. The only interview I've seen about this movie was with Bradley Cooper.

Interestingly, he said he was drawn to the movie because it was being treated like a western.

[Avalux]

42. When people believe Saddam was going to blow us to extinction, then Kyle is a hero.

That's the issue here, that the lies from Bushco are still held as truths by millions of people in this country. Yes, we were the bad guys. Kyle may not have been a bad guy, but he bought into the lie, and killed a lot of people by believing it, justifying it in the name of 'protecting' Americans. Or maybe he just liked to kill people.

[backscatter712]

43. Chris Kyle was essentially a serial killer in uniform.

Glorifying him is disgusting.

He was a psychopath who thought killing people was fun.

[oberliner]

48. This is ridiculous

Also the movie didn't glorify him. Did you see it? There was definitely nuance and complexity to the character. And he was a character in a movie, remember. Lots of movies feature characters who are less than noble. In fact some present actual serial killers in a relatively sympathetic light (Natural Born Killers, for example).

[madokie]

55. i'm telling you

I 'd be doing the same things the insurgents as, bushco called the people trying to protect their home, family and life, was doing. Same thing happened in 'Nam. We called them guks but we were the guks

[Doc Holliday]

59. My question to the OP:

"Why do you hate America?"