"The Glaring Ignorance of Some DUers Posing as Pundits and Experts on France ..."

[Surya Gayatri]

Last edited Wed Jan 14, 2015, 07:50 PM - Edit history (1)

This was my response to another OP which ripped apart the French for an allegedly simplistic, black & white, disingenuous, and dishonest reaction to last week's shocking events in my city of residence.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026083343

"But for the people of France to refuse any nuance in their understanding of the attacks, to permit themselves to indulge the temptation of simplistic, self-righteous, Manichean narratives that reduce the events in Paris as being explainable in terms of a barbarians-at-the-gate myth, while disingenuously (and somewhat dishonestly) holding their own country out as some kind of bulwark of free speech against assaults by those who hate France because of its freedoms (sound familiar?), is for the people of France to fall into the same delusion that overtook many Americans in the wake of 9-11..."

It is painfully obvious that you are not in France and have not been following events within and around the country in the last week.

It is impossible here to turn on a TV news program or open a French-language website without running into yet another nuanced and meticulously argued debate on the significance and consequences of these events for the nation and the Fifth République.

Not a discussion goes by without a "mise en garde" against over-reaction "à l'americaine".

Never make the mistake of accusing the French of "lack of nuance". Especially in contrast with American's simplistic penchant for black & white solutions, the French may be the most nuanced thinkers on the planet. They are the masters, bar none, of hairsplitting, nitpicking, and even quibbling political argument. They invented it.

"JE PENSE, DONC JE SUIS !" (I think, therefore I am) could only have been proclaimed by a French intellectual.

ETA: We bilingual expatriots sometimes have a laugh at French expense by tweaking Descartes' famous dictum to read "JE CRITIQUE, DONC J'EXISTE !" (I criticize, therefore I exist). LOL!

There is nothing the French won't debate about and criticize exhaustively. Often, ad nauseum.

Sometimes, you want to slap them silly and say "just DO it, goddamn it, and stop TALKING about it! Enough with the endless 'dialogue'!" LOL!
Critical thinking and speaking is the sap of intellectual life to them.

Edit: As for the interdiction on Muslim headgear, the ban is only on full-face coverage in public places, and this for security reasons. All religious symbols, i.e. crosses, scull caps, and head scarves are prohibited in France's resolutely secular public schools.

[Albertoo]

1. Well said. nt.

[Surya Gayatri]

2. LOL! I don't post much, but this French-bashing will NOT pass!

[orpupilofnature57]

3. It's another form of " Freedom Fries " for not being duped in to War by ShrubCo

And the fact that " some " DU'ers have become Blind Zealots for the atrocities THIS administration carries out against Liberty, a French word .

[Surya Gayatri]

4. Yes, just ignorant French bashing...

As I replied in another thread:

"As for your ignorant assertion that "France does not have free speech, period", I'll pit France's free press against America's any time.

Self-censorship for fear of R/W corporate blow back, as practiced in the US, is worse than codified restrictions."

[sabrina 1]

101. I could not agree with you more on this:

Self-censorship for fear of R/W corporate blow back, as practiced in the US, is worse than codified restrictions."

[Surya Gayatri]

103. Very glad, sabrina1. I was afraid I was being too indirect.

As you can see in this exchange, poster Boreal was confused when I used the exact same phrasing:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026083343#post7

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026083343#post11

[sabrina 1]

104. There is a lot of hypocrisy going on. And America is not known for its ability to get nuance.

Or to understand other cultures and see things in any context other than from the American pov.

Black and white thinking is prevalent here. The media plays a huge role in that.

We SAY we don't have censorship here, but right now even as we are running around touting our superior culture on free speech, we are getting ready to throw a journalist in jail for refusing to hand over his sources.

If you say that, suddenly America is alive with 'nuance'. He's 'endangering' well, someone or another, with all that free speech.

Maybe it's just a period we have to go through, as you guys have already done.

I hope so, because all this black and white thinking makes it very easy for the War Machine to keep on going. We have 'enemies' everywhere, the entire world of Islam is our enemy.

Your comment hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned, but don't expect too many to get it.

[Surya Gayatri]

105. Nice to hear a reasoned voice of sanity. And no, I expect

very little in the way of nuanced discussion from most Americans (including, sadly, some DUers), starting notably with my own wingnut family back in the States.

Black or white, friend or foe, etc. etc. It's so frustrating sometimes trying to make blinkered bigots see anything from a bit wider perspective.

[orpupilofnature57]

124. MSM, Misanthropic Sycophant Monsters.

[markpkessinger]

79. Oh please . . .

I am the author of the OP in the thread to which this one refers. I would point out that (1) the insane right (yes, the same people who came up with the absurd "freedom fries" term) are, in the present moment, upholding France as a grand exemplar of "Western values," which they accuse the current President of failing to uphold; and (2) you might ask some members of the Barack Obama Group about exactly how "zealous" I have been in defending this administration. I have been quite critical of this administration, particularly of its assaults on civil liberties, as a quick search of my postings here readily attests.

[orpupilofnature57]

123. I too indict this administration, Not You .

[markpkessinger]

125. Sorry, but I have been highly critical of this President and the administration on MANY fronts . . .

. . . over the years, including:

• his administration's unprecedented, aggressive prosecutions of whistleblowers;
  
  
• his failure to prosecute the war crimes of the previous administration;
  
  
• his unwillingness to condemn the CIA's use of torture in the strongest possible terms, instead saying, "We tortured some folks";
  
  
• his administration's failure to prosecute Wall Street criminals;
  
  
• his public statements that he supported a "public option" for healthcare reform at a time when he had already given it away at the bargaining table

among others. To say that I have not done so is an outright, scurrilous lie (as were the implications in your previous post that I was some zealous defender of anything and everything this President might do, and that the OP in this thread is fueled by some anti-French animus akin to that of Republicans who insisted upon renaming French Fries as "Freedom Fries." You made statements that had no basis in fact, and I called you out on them. I'm not talking about your disagreement with anything I said in my OP -- I'm talking about your claims that I am some kind of zealot who reflexively defends the current President, right or wrong, and the false imputation of motives. And instead of doing the decent thing and apologizing, you have compounded your original lies by adding another.

[orpupilofnature57]

126. Sorry, but a little defensive ( or a BUNCH ) ?? I MEANT AND SAID " I too " an inclusive word .

Where did you get one Iota of all that garble,, from what I posted, I'm a half a click away from asking for a jury on this one, " Oh Please " is pretentious and why I nailed you. Cool out and Happy MLK Day .

[Divernan]

5. Let's translate for the philosophically illiterate

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum
Wikipedia
Descartes' original phrase, je pense, donc je suis (French pronunciation: ​[ʒə pɑ̃s dɔ̃k ʒə sɥi]), appeared in his Discourse on the Method (1637), which was written in French rather than Latin to reach a wider audience in his country than scholars.

[Surya Gayatri]

20. Thanks, I should have translated it in situ.

[SidDithers]

6. DU rec...

Sid

[MattSh]

7. I see the same nonsense about Ukraine and Russia...

I live in Ukraine. Yet there are so many experts about these countries here on DU, even though they probably couldn't find either country on a map. (And the would be quite difficult in the case of Russia).

But in the case of France, at least the media is covering it. Maybe not all that well, but they are. In the case of Russia and Ukraine, they're missing or lying about 90% of the story.

[Surya Gayatri]

21. As I said in another thread: I'll pit France's free press

against America's cowering, self-censoring press any day.

[LawDeeDah]

40. Yes.

Some of the posts here are laughable. Screeching about free speech when they obviously don't have a clue how unfree American media speech is. But I guess if you can call the democratic President a piece of shit, that's coolio free speech.

[Surya Gayatri]

43. Say it loud and clear, LDD! Amen to that!

"Screeching about free speech when they obviously don't have a clue how unfree American media speech is".

[cwydro]

42. I remember when

many papers quit carrying Doonesbury, for crying out loud, DOONESBURY!

[Surya Gayatri]

48. Well, they might get some R/W blowback or have

FAUX Noise on their ass.

[cwydro]

49. Yeah,

our press is utterly craven and cowardly.

Very sad.

By the way, I love France. It's been years since I visited. My favorite was the coast of Normandy, omg, the coffee there!

I somehow managed to get lost in the Louvre lol.

[Surya Gayatri]

57. I used to have a "pied à terre" (little digs) in upper Normandy on the coast...

but had to give it up for mobility reasons.

Getting lost in the Louvre is par for the course. There are urban legends that visitors have been discovered wandering and starving in the nether regions.

They say you could visit it everyday for 6 weeks and still not see everything.

[cwydro]

58. Lol!

And those fearsome women that guard some of the rooms scared the crap out of me! I guess a hiss is universal language for NO.

Maybe they're not there anymore, but they would hiss if one approached a work of art too closely.

[Desert805]

82. Right across the river is the Musée d'Orsay

and it's magnificent!

http://www.musee-orsay.fr/en/home.html

[cwydro]

84. My next trip...

[uppityperson]

90. I finally made it into Musée de l'Orangerie and had to laugh

The huge Monet paintings are exceptional, very calming and gorgeous. I had to laugh because the silk scarf in my bag that I'd hand painted/dyed last year looked like this mural.

There is always more to see, more places to hang out at.

[cwydro]

99. Beautiful!

I love Monet.

[L0oniX]

122. ^^^this^^^

[Blue_Tires]

61. At least DU tries to discuss Ukraine/Russia...

Try finding anyone to have a real, in-depth discussion on Nigeria...

[Surya Gayatri]

66. True that! n/t

[PeaceNikki]

8. Ah, yes. Let's take this tragedy in which innocent French were killed and use it as a sounding board

For how France sucks. But, Allah forbid we discuss the things that such about Islam and the ideology that fueled these killers.

Should we go full wingnut and start calling them "freedom fries" now, too?

(Copy and paste of my reply from the other thread)

[Surya Gayatri]

23. Hi PN, glad you chimed in. God knows, I don't post much,

but this flagrant, ignorant French-bashing will not go unanswered.

[PeaceNikki]

30. And the timing is impeccable.

In the wake of this tragedy the discussion should be about the ideology and events that caused it. And the victims and nation in which they live are not responsible for the violence. The killers and the forces that drove them are.

To me it feels like the point of this line of thought is to imply that France didn't do enough to protect the delicate sensibilities of these zealots. And that's bullshit. They don't have a right to be protected from satire or criticism on any secular society. And even if they did, a reasonable punishment for that is not imprisonment, injury or death.

[Surya Gayatri]

33. Wish I could write as well as you do...

I may plagarize parts of this post to make points elsewhere...LOL!

"To me it feels like the point of this like of thought is to imply that France didn't do enough to protect the delicate sensibilities of these zealots. And that's bullshit. They don't have a right to be protected from satire or criticism on any secular society. And even if they did, a reasonable punishment for that is not imprisonment, injury or death."

Wow! Just wow!

[PeaceNikki]

38. aw shucks, you DO! And you're multi-lingual as well.

Yes, please use it freely. I stand by my words.

[Surya Gayatri]

44. <<<Hug>>>!

[PeaceNikki]

55. Back atcha.

I would try to say that in French but would probably botch it so badly I'd be unintentionally offensive. and

[Surya Gayatri]

59. Bisous! (kisses) et à toi de même (same to you)!

[leftynyc]

9. Great OP

I saw the thread you linked to and saw how you were fighting back against the abject ignorance of so many. They revere Chomsky (it was his article/video that sparked the thread) and believe every word he says is gospel. I believe he said there is no such thing as free speech in France - obvious bullshit. I hope you realize it's the same cast of characters over and over that are merely trying to deflect from what these jihadis did.

[Surya Gayatri]

24. Yeah, Chomsky is their divine incarnation...

[Enrique]

36. i can't watch the Chomsky clip at the moment

but I expect when I do, his point about France will turn out to be carefully stated and factually correct. Maybe something like that France doesn't have a First Amendment, or something equally specific.

[leftynyc]

52. And I'm guessing it will be along the

lines of "it's horrible, but" someone somewhere did some more horrendous as if that matters at all.

[Enrique]

60. i.e., providing context

something he does well.

If anyone doesn't want the context that Chomsky provides, they have plenty of other choices, a lot of which don't provide any context at all.

[leftynyc]

62. i.e. providing excuses

for murderous scum. See how that works?

[TBF]

10. I've never been to France

and did not read the other thread. I do know in general terms there is a strong tradition of resistance by workers against oppression in that country - one to be respected. I'm glad you are speaking up and letting people know since you've actually lived there.

[Boreal]

15. Maybe you should look at the other thread

and see why the OP copied his/her post from there to here, starting another thread, rather than address what was said there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026083343

[Surya Gayatri]

18. I DID address what was said there...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026083343#post3
However, the OP has not seen fit to respond.

[TBF]

37. I just read the entire thing -

thank you for the link. She did address it there.

[Surya Gayatri]

16. Live here right now (and for the past 30+ years)!

Dual national--Franco-American.

How true that France has a "strong tradition of resistance by workers against oppression". I'll pit France's "democratic liberal" credentials against America's any time.

[FSogol]

29. Franco-American?

[TBF]

34. Typical.

Do you have anything substantive to add to the conversation?

Or are we just all hating France now?

How predictable from a certain faction.

[FSogol]

41. So goofing on the word "Franco-American", a company that made inedible food from my childhood

is "all hating France now?" Joking about a term puts me in a "certain faction"?

Sure, as long as that faction isn't folks with their heads stuck up their asses that take themselves too seriously.
Congrats on your substantive additions to the conversation!

Is the puke from Franco-American food products or that certain faction I mentioned above? What do you think?

[TBF]

69. I think folks inside the beltway

are clueless about what goes on in the rest of this country. Not that it will matter to you.

[FSogol]

71. Clueless is very apt.

LOL: "Not that it will matter to you."
I wonder about people who spew so much hate to an anonymous person on a web forum for the crime of not agreeing with them. They should grow up.

[TBF]

77. It sure is. nt

[Surya Gayatri]

35. Yes, proud Yankee/Frog here, but non-meat-eating! LOL!

[Pacifist Patriot]

11. Thank you for this.

As someone who has lived in several European countries and traveled in countries on four continents, the ignorance that doesn't prevent pontificating can get exceedingly frustrating here at times. Reading and watching pundits, even liberal ones, especially if it's always the same sources, really cannot take the place of personal immersion and experience.

[Surya Gayatri]

13. You, M/Ms. Patriot, are a person after my own heart!

[Pacifist Patriot]

31. Actually feeling a bit house bound right now.

I haven't been out of the U.S. in several years and it's driving me mad!

and it's Ms.

ETA: Hoping to make a trip to France in June 2016. I imagine my avatar will give a clue as to what I'd be doing there at that time.

[Surya Gayatri]

32. I was obliged to spend a month in the States this summer/autumn

and was never so happy to get back on a plane to France, the land of the sane.
From the perspective of an expatriot, looking on mostly from the outside, it appears that my beloved country of birth has gone collectively bonkers.

By the way, I'm a Ms. as well. We in France will open our arms when you get back here!

[brooklynite]

12. UNREC

You're perfectly free to criticize anyone else's opinion, but claiming they're "Posing as Pundits and Experts" absent any specific claims is uncalled for.

[Surya Gayatri]

14. Have you read the OP to which I refer?

Blatant pontificating without a shred of firsthand, on-the-ground support for their argument.

The OP poster has not replied to me, by the way.

[brooklynite]

17. Then it'll be easy to defeat their arguments without insults...

[Surya Gayatri]

19. Who has been insulting whom....?

Last edited Wed Jan 14, 2015, 12:16 PM - Edit history (1)

[cwydro]

45. I haven't seen you insult anyone,

and I think you did a great job addressing the OP in the other thread.

I don't want to kick that thread, so I won't answer in it.

[Surya Gayatri]

46. Thanks for the clear vision, cwydro...

The OP did not see fit to answer me directly, so I started another thread!

[TorchTheWitch]

100. I did answer you directly and several times

You wrote a call out post about me before that. You also continued to talk about me and made unsubstantiated claims about me concerning other things entirely that you know nothing about. You continually ignored everything I said about DU ignoring the attack on Hyper Cacher and the media's ignoring it. You blamed me for what English language media I could find and threw all kinds of French language media links at me that is useless to me as I can't read French just like most people here can't.

Because unlike you I am not on the ground I obviously can't have the same knowledge or perspective as you just as no one else can that isn't also on the ground yet you blamed me for what information I found and didn't find when I'm not the media nor is anyone else here. I would have been more than happy to edit my OP had you asked based only on your personal information going on faith that you were correct. But that's not what you did. Instead you ignored the whole premise of my thread about how the attack at Hyper Cacher was being ignored on DU and woefully minimized in the English language media - which is entirely true - and that I was in solidarity with those shoppers. At no time had you mentioned that you were in solidarity with them also or thanked me for bringing up Hyper Cacher even after my pointing it out, and I find that very puzzling particularly after all your efforts to make the discussion all about me personally and when - as I have said before - call out posts here have never been allowed. I still haven't alerted on any of them though and likely won't.

And here you are calling me out again. Since I've been busy I forgot about putting you on ignore. I've barely been on the internet at all since then as like you I have more important things going on in my life. I excused your more important things as reasonable yet you don't extend the same courtesy to me and here you are saying I didn't respond to you when I most certainly did and more than once.

Despite what you have been so up in arms about it turns out that what I said about France having tried all three of the terrorists with various terrorist related crimes and waived/greatly reduced their sentences after being found guilty while ignoring what they were up to is true. In my OP I linked to a post here about that information though there is more of it that I've found since even by a French author.

What I said about how long it took the police to stop the terrorist at the market is also true and I got from survivors of that attack who have been speaking to the media. You are free to deny it all you like. You are not free to blame me for what they have said or what the media has said - I am not them nor the media anymore than you are or anyone else here is.

So how many call out posts of yours is this now? How interesting it is that you have gone to such effort to make it all about me personally rather than what I said and to say things about me that are untrue when you aren't allowed to call out people here at all much less make up shit about them. I've been here for something like a dozen years or so. In all that time the Admins have always said you can discuss the post but not the poster. Though I likely won't be wasting my time alerting on your posts doing that (and there are many) that's not stopping anyone else from doing so. I would suggest you delete all of them, but that's your choice.

And of course, I Am Hyper Cacher whether or not you like it.

Once again, I have real life to attend to.

[Surya Gayatri]

102. G'day, TorchTheWitch. Glad to see I'm not on your ignore list...yet

It so happens that the post and the OP you're replying to was not addressed to you, but no matter.

Yes, you did respond to me in your OP yesterday and I thank you for the exchange. But, there were more nuances that I wished to bring to people's attention, so I posted my own OP.

Sorry, had to reference your OP at that time for mine to make sense.

By the by, did you see my apology for using French media links? Hope so...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026074523#post49

[TorchTheWitch]

118. of course it wasn't addressed to me

and that's exactly the issue. It is ABOUT me which is a call-out that is not and never has been permitted here just as your other call-out thread was and your numerous posts ABOUT me personally making false claims about what I have said, what I think, how stupid you think I am for not being omniscient, etc. You have repeatedly lied and said in numerous posts that I didn't respond to you, which I did numerous times as you well know and anyone that cares to look at my OP whose link you so conveniently continue to provide.

Your ENTIRE OP is all about ME personally. Your thread title called ME personally glaring ignorant and posing as a pundit and expert on France NONE of which is true. In no way did I pose as a pundit or expert on a fucking THING! I have told you REPEATEDLY that the information in the media that I had discovered over hours of research ignored any solidarity for the people that killed, injured and terrorized at Hyper Cacher. Yet you blame ME personally for what I had discovered in English Language media as if I was responsible for that media. You then peppered me with a list of French language links that I TOLD you I couldn't read as though I should have been able to and thus found through my own research and read.

Apology for the French language links? Pfffttt... you really think I give one teensy fart for an apology for THAT? How about apologizing for calling me out and insulting me in at least two threads now. How about apologizing for discussing ME personally with other posters further insulting me in my own thread? How about apologizing for lying about me several times in several of your posts and that I never replied to you when anyone that cares to look at my OP I most certainly DID several times and you know it? How about apologizing for blaming me for what information I DID find that you just don't like such as how all three of the terrorists were known to be so, found guilty by the French justice system yet one had his sentence waived and the other two extremely reduced, then ignored them once they were free which allowed them to make these attacks? I linked in my OP where that information came from (another OP that gave links) and have since found a lengthy article that details it all...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/12/-sp-charlie-hebdo-attackers-kids-france-radicalised-paris

How about apologizing for blaming me for information I found from survivors and family members of survivors that claim that the police did nothing to rescue them for 4 to 5 hours which could probably have saved at least one of the victims, Yoav Hattab, age 21...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4614387,00.html
{snip}
"I spoke with the President of France Francois Hollande and I told him that if the police had not waited 4-5 hours, maybe my son would still be alive. He lost blood," said Rabbi Hattab in the interview with Channel 20.
{/snip}

There is also this...

http://www.jewishledger.com/2015/01/among-jews-little-faith-french-authorities-stories/

{snip}
Joel Oalid said his brother spoke with him immediately after being freed and said “the terrorist said he wanted to die. He said, ‘I will die today, but you before.’ My brother told me, he told all the people, ‘You are Jewish, and today you are going to die.’”

He also reported his brother had tried to alert the police after Coulibaly entered the store and killed one employee. Coulibaly had held up a Kalashnikov in each hand, according to Patrice Oalid.

"My brother ran outside and told the police to come in, and the police said, 'No, no, no, we don't go in, we don’t have the order to come inside.'"
{/snip}

I've read other survivor testimony that is similar but didn't bookmark them. Since I don't run the world's English speaking media or have any control of it nor write it, you'd have to find them yourself.

These articles all at that link one after the other say that several survivors of the attack at Hyper Cacher including a former police officer whose arm was injured and is still in the hospital as well as the manager of the market have now decided to emigrate to Israel. It also talks about French Jews being the overwhelming number or Israeli immigrants suddenly in the past year and the numbers which there is a reason for....

{snip}
In 2014, France became for the first time Israel’s largest source of Jewish immigrants, with 7,000 new arrivals – more than double the 2013 figure of 3,289. The year before, 1,917 French Jews immigrated to Israel.
{/snip}

And then there is also this...

{snip}
"The issue for the future of our lives here as Jews is how France reacts, not its government. And right now, France is reacting to Charlie, not to Chaim," Bitton said of public outrage at the Jan. 7 attack on the offices of the satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo.
{/snip}

How about apologizing for blaming me for not being on the ground in Paris as you are? Well, DUH. You're likely the only one HERE that is! But are you attacking anyone else here? NO. You completely singled me out, and every bit of this pile on you've been doing is not only vindictive as can be but you continually deny everything I've said including that I never responded to you which you knew every time you said it was entirely false, and anyone that cares to is free to read them since you keep diligently referencing my thread.

Your ridiculous excuse that you just had to reference my OP in this and your other call-out thread in order for it to make sense is the biggest load of BS that's ever been written here. Well, yeah, when the intent is to attack, insult and lie about a poster then of course you needed to reference my thread, and that's EXACTLY what this and your other one did along with all your other BS posts about me personally. In the dozen or so years I've been here every fucking day people reference things that were said by others here and are able to do it without calling them out personally nor referencing their posts in order to not run afoul of the no call-out rule that I have several times now told you is not allowed here. I've not alerted on either of your call-out threads nor your multitude of insulting and false claims about me posts because juries here are fucked, and it was probably too late to do so anyway by the time I was able to get back here from my real life. That doesn't mean that Admin won't address it though. They most certainly have before.

Furthermore, as to you insulting post you made to another poster in my own thread that I must be some kind of idiot when it comes to police tacticts you're absolutely WRONG. I bloody well AM familiar with hostage situations as one of my cousins in the Boston area is a police officer and has for decades dealt with exactly that. When the hostage taker has already shot hostages you go in as fast as you possibly can if a sniper can't take them out tossing in smoke granades, flashbangs, or any other useful device, storm the building, sneak into the building, etc. - whatever the hell can be done to take out the hostage taker not only to keep other hostages from getting shot but to try to medically save whoever already has been. At least one victim died because the police were not willing to do anything for hours while he bled to death during that time. It competely sickens me that that was allowed to happen. How many other people died or were injured because of their hours of non-action?

The most fucked up thing about what you've been doing is that not once did you ever ask me to edit my OP concerning that teensy bit of it that referenced France's reaction concerning Hyper Cacher, and I gladly would have despite the fact that I can't read a single one of the French language links you provided and would have just took your word for it. However, just as I posted here, I have since found other people on the ground that happen to agree that the vast majority or even "all" of the gathering in response was about Charlie Hebdo. Even now in the English language press the attacks are being called "shootings/killings" at CH, "shooting/killing" of a police officer and a "hostage crisis/hostage taking" (no mention of any shootings or deaths) at Hyper Cacher though many are now calling it by its name rather than just a kosher market or grocery.

[Surya Gayatri]

119. Thanks for that exhaustive list of links and references!...And, I regret

having to disabuse you of your cherished but misguided belief that:
&quot My) ENTIRE OP is all about (YOU) personally."

Sorry, but no.

With hand on heart, I can honestly say that the thought of you didn't cross my mind while composing this particular OP.

With all due respect...

[Pacifist Patriot]

25. I'm not sure I'd consider...

pointing out ignorance or expressing frustration about making claims in the absence of knowledge and/or experience to be an insult.

If I made some judgments about the situation in Ukraine and it was pointed out to me that I was wide of the mark because I didn't know XYZ about the situation, I'd indeed be guilty of ignorance.

Now if that person said I was stupid, which carries with it the implication that I am incapable of grasping the knowledge I lack, I'd consider that insulting.

[Surya Gayatri]

27. Thanks again for your understanding, PPatriot.

By the way, the OP to whom I was referring hasn't deigned to answer me.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. I think people calling an entire country racist over cartoons the critics simply do not understand

qualifies as posing and as punditry. It's amazing to me to see Americans claim to suddenly 'get' French humor and satire after a long history of decidedly not getting French humor and satire going back to Moliere. It floors me to see people who do not even read French engage in opining over the meaning of words in French that have political, cultural and social contexts that are not our own and not easily understood by anyone who is not deeply connected to that culture.
I spent much of yesterday talking with artists from the US who live and work in Paris because France is more receptive to their work than the US, which is fearful of religion and does not at all mind spitting on LGBT and other minorities in the rush to display 'respect' for religion.

[Surya Gayatri]

39. Thank you, thank you, thank you, BlueN.

I sometimes feel like one of the few voices of reason in a wasteland of ignorant heathens.

Edit:
You wrote: "I spent much of yesterday talking with artists from the US who live and work in Paris because France is more receptive to their work than the US..."
I know some of them myself and then just look back through history.
How many black musicians, artists, writers, ad infinitum, had to seek artistic asylum in France during the 20th Century, not to mention the "réchappées" (escapees) of the House Un-American witchhunts?

[Laughing Mirror]

53. Satire targeting minorities

I don't know what I think about satire when it is used against a minority, being a practicing member since birth of a despised minority myself, as are you.

Things I have learned looking at some of this Charlie Hebdo satire:

One sure-fire laugh you'll get as a cartoonist intending to make fun of a guy you love to hate: dress him up as a girl. Do this as often as necessary; it always works. Put your right-wing fascist in a tutu and have him twirling and mincing right off the page.

Pose the Muslim with his hairy ass in the air, being penetrated by the Muslim star. Flies buzz around this delightful scene.

Or you put another Muslim in the picture, and have one sodomizing the other, neither enjoying it, naturally. Who could enjoy that? It's got to be the worst you can imagine, right? After all, what can I possibly imagine, for me as an old lefty heterosexual cartoonist, to be more awful than being sodomized by a hairy bearded Arab? I could hardly imagine anything worse, so I'll just have to keep having them fucking one another other in the most brutal manner I can imagine. How simply hilarious.

Or you want to put a gay in a cartoon, a gay Jewish Nazi, for example, only you will not call him a gay Jewish Nazi, you will call him a Jewish Nazi Péde (Faggot). You have to say pédé instead of gay, because "gay" just doesn't get your declining weekly readership laughing much anymore, while "pédé" will still do the job. It's comic gold.) And pédé is always a good and reliable slur, either in or out of context, the context being making fun of another minority.

What I have learned from this recent episode: When you have satire that does not mind spitting on LGBT and other minorities in order to offend, in the case of Charlie Hebdo, apparently, it's perfectly acceptable because it is just puerile juvenile humor in the great Franchouillard tradition. After all, Charlie Hebdo satirists say they are left-wing, anarchists, ecologists who deride everybody. So it is all okay. Who is to say otherwise?

Their obsessive use of the word pédé, then, is just for laughs. It's not meant to be a slur, and how could it be? Because the people at the magazine say it isn't. So it isn't. And the Muslims they have obsessively ass-fucking (when they are not buying prostitutes, another hilarious target) is such great humor. Such great art with such an interesting message coded into it.

Yes, how truly hilarious satire can be, especially when targeting the most excluded, most fragile members of a society. Surely everyone would like to laugh at the Roma, the fags, the Arabs. But I wonder that if you can only get less than 60,000 to buy an issue of this ribtickling satire every week, to the desperate point of having to issue calls for donations a few months ago, as Charlie Hebdo did, maybe you just ain't so goddam hilarious after all for the large overwhelming majority of French people.

Latest reports are that the new issue of Charlie Hebdo is selling out 3 million copies, however. Profits going to all victims' families. What I wonder now, is how many of those 3 million new impulse buyers will keep on buying once they get a look inside at the goods. And, how long will the terrorist reaction mass hypnosis hold out?

[Starry Messenger]

64. +1

[Bluenorthwest]

67. You don't get it. Charlie Hebdo is a very strong supporter of LGBT equality and an aggressive

defender of our community against the constant and virulent open bigotry that simply streams out of religion. Their comics do not offend me, they defend me.
You simply fail to comprehend the meanings of the cartoons. I can't really help that. But I do note that you, while defending religion, manage to employ the slur 'fags' repeatedly and for no reason, in English and without even bothering to cite any specific cartoon by them that you see as homophobic. You come to explain to me that I should be offended, to preach from a place of privilege. You do not offer examples, you characterize your own perceptions of the works and seem to demand that I accept your opinion about them as fact. That is not acceptable.
Further, you are suggesting that the leaders of Europe and millions of French people just marched in solidarity with a racist, bigoted and homophobic publication, which is a huge insult to hurl. You do so without citation, without example, offering only editorial commentary instead.
If you wish to hang a person for what they say, you need to quote what they say, not what you think they were saying or what you thought it meant. To do otherwise is dishonest.

[Laughing Mirror]

70. I'm sure they say they are a defender of gay people

I question why they must continue to use offensive gay stereotypes in their work, especially when they use them in conjunction with offensive stereotypes of other hated minorities. Using the stereotypes of one to attack the stereotypes of another.
I don't see how it defends me or them. That may be, as you say, because I fail to comprehend the deep meanings of these fabulous cartoons.

When I repeatedly used the word pédé (fag) I was using the word that Charlie Hebdo uses repeatedly, Fags. As if they can't think of anything else to demonize a detested minority with, so they use the slur of another detested minority. I am obviously misunderstanding their noble intentions, of course.

Here are a few from the grab bag of images I'm come across to illustrate some, with barebones translations to give a brief sampling of the output of the great supporters of LGBT equality, a great magazine that until today, nobody used to read, but onto whose pathetic bandwagon many now want to be jumping on.


"No, to the (mariage pour tous) protest of two old dykes." The one on left is Christine Boutine, well known right-wing Catholic hater. The one on the right is, I'm guessing, Frigide Barjot, the leader of the hate marches. The two personalites in question are kind of old and ugly. So of course they have to be dykes.


Rumor: National Education wants to turn our kids into faggots" That some parents are ass-fuckers (in the passive sense, enculeur is active), well, that's not a rumor."


The fags, jews, freemasons run the world! Yes, but it's a tough job. If somebody else wants to do it, go ahead!


Don't let gender theory transform our Zemmours (famous islamophobe) into little girls.


The new name of the UMP (Sarkozy's right wing party): ONEPOP: We Are Not Faggots


After having gotten closer, the UMP is pulliing away from FN (Front Nationale). It's the fags!

These are just some, as described. The ass-fuck Muslim-Arab-Islamists pictures are everywhere to behold and I'm not going to bother with them any more.

If I do not see these pictures exactly the same way as you do, that is fine. Each of us sees the world out of a different pair of eyes. Sometimes I look at things and look at them, and I'm sorry I just can't laugh. Some of us never get the joke.

My point is this. If you, as a satirist, want to make a point picking on something you hate, do you think always dragging in fags and dykes and getting fucked in the ass is the best most effective way to get your message across in a funny way? I am a gay person who lives in Paris with my husband. I have lived here 31 years. I never looked at the rag before, and I have started to pay attention to it in the last week, like most others. When I see what I see, I don't see what's so funny about it. Go pick on somebody else.

No, I don't always understand being the useful butt of a joke, whether I have the intellectual capability to "understand" the joke or not.

In the collective mentality, I wonder to what effect such not so subliminal messages linking gay/lesbian slurs to what some satire magazine wants to make fun of, will sink in? Providing the three million new readers keep reading.

[Bluenorthwest]

72. You don't get the jokes. I do. I am gay, they do not offend me they defend me, each and every one

of them. Sorry if it 'offends' you that I, as a gay homosexual, can think for myself. What bothers me, but of course does not bother you in the least, is the constant stream of real, actual, clearly spoken contempt for LGBT people that spews forth freely from various religious quarters, particularly Christian and Muslim religious quarters.

Charlie Hebdo is my friend. Religions are all opposed to my rights. Your lack of comprehension about what you are looking at is yours to deal with. Knowledge = Life.

[Laughing Mirror]

76. Well that's good that Charlie is your friend

I don't know why you think it offends me, so there is nothing for you to be sorry for.

[Bluenorthwest]

95. Because you respond with lectures, with snark but not with any respectful discussion of anything

I have said or asked of you. When a person just preaches at another and ignores all they say or ask and then just preaches some more, that person is not indicating that they see their status as equal to the person they are preaching at. Condescending and uncalled for.

Again, no words of criticism at all from you for the anti gay hate speech that streams out of the 'faith communities' all day every day. Why is that, exactly, if you are such a guardian against offensive speech?

[Surya Gayatri]

93. Que Dieu te benisse, mon ami(e) LGBT. Toi, tu piges. Lui, il pige pas.

Last edited Thu Jan 15, 2015, 04:59 AM - Edit history (1)

God bless you LGBT friend. You get it. He doesn't.

French satire is some of the most scurrilous and scathing in the world. Not for the faint of heart, but sometimes scaldingly funny.

[Laughing Mirror]

73. Also, yes you are correct about the marchers

That march of world leader hypocrites setting themselves up as the front line in defense of free speech ... most of them there didn't even have to sign onto solidarity with a racist, bigoted homophobic publication when most of them are already racist, homophobic, and bigoted themselves.

If you sign on to JeSuisCharlie, you're signing on not only to freedom of speech but you are endorsing the content of that particular magazine. Because in this JeSuisCharlie campaign which sprang up, the two concepts were merged together. You cannot accept one without the other. I endorse freedom of all types. I don't have to endorse the content. Now most of the people at that march never read CharlieHebdo. Most of the people never read the fine print of a contract they sign either. But their hearts are in the right place, they are in mourning, they are easily manipulable, they are in a hurry to sign, so they do.

[Bluenorthwest]

97. So you, like LePen, don't endorse Charlie. Of course religions people never endorse that

which shows respect for LGBT people's rights nor do the far right.
And I did not say anything about the marchers being hypocrites and nothing about the world leaders at the event. Nothing. So don't put words into my mouth. That is called being a liar. Does your 'faith' permit that sort of bullshit bearing of false witness? No faith I have ever heard of permits that. It's wrong. Stop it.

[ND-Dem]

109. Right. only people like le pen don't 'endorse' 'charlie'. how long have you lived in france?

[Surya Gayatri]

98. Sorry, LM, but do you not know this most famous of

philosophical quotes from the French Enlightenment: “Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je me battrai jusqu'à la mort pour que vous ayez le droit de le dire”?

So totally wrong: "If you sign on to JeSuisCharlie, you're signing on not only to freedom of speech but you are endorsing the content of that particular magazine."

"CHARLIE" has beome the shorthand symbol of France's re-commitment to its founding republican ideals. People couldn't hand out tracts like back in the day, so they used an internet meme instead.

As you say, "most of the people at that march never read CharlieHebdo", but they know what underpins their cherished Valeurs Républicaines. And they won't allow those values to disappear gently into the night.

[markpkessinger]

80. Nowhere in my OP did I call, or imply, that the entire country of France is racist . . .

. . . nowhere. Did you even read it (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026083343 )?

[LanternWaste]

88. Nor did you specify who is calling France a beacon of free speech...

Nor did you specify who is calling France a beacon of free speech...

[ND-Dem]

81. not much of france got it either, with a circulation of 30-45K. in paris, no less.

[Surya Gayatri]

94. They have a small following of true devotees. Their scathing,

scatological style is not for the faint of heart.

They are, unfortunately, an endangered species for the same reasons that all print media are.

[ND-Dem]

106. even liberation has a circulation of over 100,000. Charlie is less than 1/2 that because most

people aren't that interested in their style of 'humor'.

I'd say that's one of the good aspects of france.

[Surya Gayatri]

107. Apples & oranges..."Libé" is a news DAILY,

"Charlie" a WEEKLY satirical rag. Hence, the rest of its name "Hebdo" for hebdomadaire, meaning weekly.

And, true enough, Charlie's pipi-caca-zizi (peepee, poopy, willy) brand of humour is not for the average joe.

But, there's room for all in a liberal, open democracy like France.

[ND-Dem]

108. i know liberation is a daily and charlie a weekly. so what? weekly or daily is irrelevant

to circulation figures. circulation = regular readers, not total readers divided by the publishing calendar.

if Charlie has a circulation of 40,000, that's about 40,000 a week, not 40,000/52 weeks.

if liberation has a circulation of 100K, it's 100K each day it comes out, not 100K/365 days.

[Surya Gayatri]

110. My point is really their contents and mission, news vs. parody...

I just wasn't sure whether you knew the profile of the respective papers.

In fact, Charlie is most often referred to as a magazine.

Two distinct species, albeit both on the left side of the spectrum.

[ND-Dem]

111. I also knew their respective profiles. one has a rather low circulation, indicating most

people in a very large and 'sophisticated' city aren't much interested in its contents or mission. in fact, it's subsidized by some larger entity, at least according to Robert crumb. Since the 911 bombing -- why since then, one wonders? Heightening the contradictions?

the other has a somewhat higher circulation (used to be higher though, signifying the movement of france to the right, likely due to economic factors).

[Surya Gayatri]

112. "Libé" (not to mention the venerable 'Le Monde') is also struggling for survival,

but due more to generally declining paper-press readership than the recent gains of Marion Le Pen and her FN cohorts.

Following the overall world trend, the French prefer to read their news on the Net nowadays.

Readership for all hard-print French newspapers has nosedived.

[ND-Dem]

113. charlie didn't nosedive. it's never been large.

[Surya Gayatri]

114. Niche audience, specifically targeted...see post 94

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026083439#post94

[ND-Dem]

115. targeted to people who like unfunny 'satire.' there aren't too many people who do, obviously.

[Surya Gayatri]

116. As my French compatriots say in their tolerant way:

"Les goûts et les couleurs--ça ne s'explique pas".
(Taste and color preference--you can't explain it)

So, I'd say, don't even try.

"Who can explain it,
who can tell you why?
Fools give you reasons,
wise men never try!" LOL!


ETA: Just in passing, have you seen Manny's most excellent OP entitled "So it seems that some people get really, really angry at satire..."
Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026086356

[ND-Dem]

121. You know, i lived in france once too. and i didn't find the french as 'tolerant' as you keep

saying. historically they weren't so tolerant either.

so yeah, let's just leave it there.

[deutsey]

22. I have no direct experience with France

but it sounds to me that what is probably lacking "any nuance in their understanding of the attacks" are the American mainstream "news" outlets, not the French.

[Surya Gayatri]

26. YOU SAID IT! And, as the ignorant French-bashers on DU cannot

read French (we can only assume), they go solely on what they're hearing from the craven US press.

[treestar]

47. If a person lives there, they can just tell us their experience

It isn't necessary to gloat about knowing more when the reason you do is so obvious. Of course the rest of us don't understand what it is like to live there. We'll still have opinions. And we won't even defer to yours, since millions of people live there and we know some of them won't agree with you either.

Americans will always be proud of the unfettered freedom of speech we have, even if there are people saying horrible things. I can't imagine having any limits, and having any seems dangerous. Once you start, you can continue. I hope there will be no reaction of limiting anti-Muslim speech.

[Surya Gayatri]

54. Excuse ME???? "It isn't necessary to GLOAT...?"

I fail to see how my refutation of the original OP's ill-founded and gratuitous trashing of France's reaction to its national trajedy, and my defense of same, could in any way be construed as gloating.

The author of that egregious original OP has not deigned to respond to me, by the way.

France is every bit as proud of and attached to its hard-earned tradition of "liberté d'expression" as the US.

As for "having any limits, and having any seems dangerous", I refer you to one of my posts elsewhere today, explaining the historical context of these 'limits':

"Yes, race baiting, rabble rousing and race-hate rhetoric are indeed prohibited in public places in France.

But, you must put these interdictions in their historical and social context.

In the last five hundred years, few countries have suffered as much as France from the effects of religious intolerance, fascism, and anti-semitism."

[treestar]

120. It was boasting that you know more than the others

I live there, so I know more than you, so shut up. It had a lot of unpleasantness you could have avoided. I live there and these are my observations. You went on about how others were ignorant because they don't live there.

[cwydro]

56. I don't see where she was gloating.

She made a very civil and well thought out reply to a rather offensive post.

[KingCharlemagne]

50. I find this debate (both this thread and the one it is posted in response to) very

interesting and remarkably civil.

Question for you: what does 'free speech' mean to you and do the French currently practice it as you define it?

Reason i ask: Since 1990, France has criminalized the expression of Holocaust denial and punishes said expression (and the expression of denial of some other commonly-conceded crimes against humanity) with up to a five-year sentence.

Now I happen to find Holocaust denial patently ridiculous and absurd, so much so that I immediately tune out anyone who espouses such nonsense. But criminalizing the expression of Holocaust Denial? How does such a law comport with any conception of 'free speech'?

In France, the Gayssot Act, voted for on July 13, 1990, makes it illegal to question the existence of crimes that fall in the category of crimes against humanity as defined in the London Charter of 1945, on the basis of which Nazi leaders were convicted by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-46. When the act was challenged by Robert Faurisson, the Human Rights Committee upheld it as a necessary means to counter possible antisemitism. In 2012, the Constitutional Council of France ruled that to extend the Gayssot Act to the Armenian Genocide denial was unconstitutional because it violated the freedom of speech

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial#France

[Surya Gayatri]

65. Thanks for your very civil inquiry, KC. I'm of divided mind about this, I guess.

Last edited Wed Jan 14, 2015, 01:07 PM - Edit history (1)

I'd have to avow that, as things stand in France today, we do practice a "relative" form of freedom of expression, with a few no-go "points chauds" (hot spots) due to recent historical and social reality.

Don't forget that France is only now, 60 to 70 years after the fact, coming to terms with the appalling and shameful treatment of its own Jewish community during WWII, when "deniers" were thick as thieves.

Also, our beloved and resolutely secular public schools were being turned into religious-political battlegrounds, thus the ban on all religious symbols, i.e. headscarves, turbans, scull caps, prayer shawls, crosses, ad infinitum.

Hope this goes some way to clarifying my Franco-American perspective.

[KingCharlemagne]

91. A DUer named (I believe) JBerryhill posted a poll on DU about whether we favored

banning Holocaust Denial. I reluctantly said that I thought it should be banned, as offensive to the good opinion of mankind. (However, i would also be the first to confess that I am no First Amendment absolutist.) My point is only that 'Free Speech' is not an absolute value, either here or in France, but a social construct, contingent to an extent upon local conditions. Thus, free speech here is not the same as free speech in France. And yet each country claims she practices free speech.

[Surya Gayatri]

92. Well said...so true...

"'Free Speech' is not an absolute value, either here or in France, but a social construct, contingent to an extent upon local conditions."

A 'social construct' and ideal to be treasured, defended and worked towards, I might add.

[Pooka Fey]

87. Slander and Libel are also illegal in the USA, King Charlemagne, what exactly is your point here?

I mean, other than to lay down a huge steaming pile of off-topic shit for the OP to clean up for you?

[DrDan]

51. Thank you for the polite, coherent rebuttal

[Surya Gayatri]

63. Well, as I said somewhere else,

I very rarely post, but this flagrant French bashing will not go unanswered! LOL!

[markpkessinger]

83. Accusing someone of "posing as a pundit or expert" is polite? n/t

[DrDan]

85. I thought it was a polite response . . .

we see so few these days when posters disagree

[BeanMusical]

68. I totally agree. K&R

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

74. I have dual French-American citizenship and have lived in France

My mom is French and one side of my family is French. Over my 12 years here at DU I've noticed the overwhelming ignorance on the part of some about France and its history. But I've grown so tired of it I just don't respond anymore.

[Surya Gayatri]

78. I know what you mean...I very rarely post here myself,

but I couldn't let the ignorant and overt French bashing in that OP go unanswered.

God knows, I've dissed the French (being one myself, I feel it's my right), but that was just over-the-top and egregiously silly.

[markpkessinger]

75. If I am guilty of "posing as a pundit or expert" . . .

Last edited Wed Jan 14, 2015, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

. . . then so is just about every person who posts to this board. This is a discussion site, where people post their thoughts, opinions and observations concerning various topics. if I am "posing as a pundit or expert on France" with my post, then so is every other member of DU "posing as a pundit or expert" on whatever topic about which they post. I have never claimed to be an expert on France. But, as a New Yorker, and one who was in New York during the 9-11 attacks, I like to think that maybe I learned a thing or two about the dynamics of mass hysteria in the wake of a terrorist attack. It goes without saying that my read of the situation could be wrong. And I appreciate reading your perspective as one who lives in France (although I could have done without the "posing as pundit or expert" snipe).

[LanternWaste]

89. That's certainly one way to rationalize your unsupported editorial...

That's certainly one way to rationalize your unsupported editorial...

[Surya Gayatri]

117. Just realized I'd neglected to reply to you here in this OP...

Please see your justification in the original OP and my riposte re: using too broad a brush:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026083343#post77

With all due respect...

[Hekate]

86. KnR for a good subthread by BNW and LM, and lively OP and discussion in general.

It all makes for interesting back and forth reading, a rarity at DU these days.

Thank you Surya for kicking it off; also thanks for letting me know the famous phrase I have known all my life in Latin was originally stated in French. When I say "all my life" I am only exaggerating a little; I first heard it from my mother, a woman who prized rigorous thought. Now I have to relearn how to spell and say it -- if I mispronounce French that has made its way into English my husband winces and corrects me, as French was his first language.

Surya, I really hate those cartoons; scatology and the rest have little appeal for me. However, early on in this horror, the words of another French philosopher came to me loud and clear: "But I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Be well. Perhaps someday I will have the chance to visit Paris and get lost for days in the Louvre.

[Surya Gayatri]

96. Voltaire (whose boulevard we marched down on Sunday) knew from "free expression"...

and said it so memorably:
“Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je me battrai jusqu'à la mort pour que vous ayez le droit de le dire”.

That being said, I don't much like the pipi/caca/zizi (peepee, poopy, willy) side of CHARLIE, either. But, they are so on the mark sometimes in their skewering of hypocrisy.

Like I said up thread, Hekate, I almost never post, but the egregious trashing of my adopted and beloved France could not go unanswered.

Is your husband from Canada, France or somewhere else that's French-speaking? Get him to read Voltaire's words to you out loud--beautiful.