Even an Ivy League Grad Can’t Pass the New GED

[cali]

A corporation privatized the test, made it four times more expensive, and made it almost impossible to pass. Trust me.

The number of people who passed the GED—the high school equivalency test long seen as a “good enough diploma”—plummeted this year. About 86,500 people passed the new test in 2014, compared with 540,535 in 2013.

The GED administered in 2014 was dramatically tougher than its previous iteration, which had been in use since 2002. The GED Testing Service overhauled the test to align with Common Core standards and rebut a growing consensus that the test didn’t actually indicate if someone had learned what they would have in high school.

The new test is hard for high-school dropouts, sure. But what would it be like for those of us who made it through high school and college?

I’m a reasonably smart person: I scored 1370 on my SATs back in high school, went to a good college, just got a master’s degree from Columbia, and tend to be a strong member of a bar trivia team. So I searched online, found a test aligned with the new, harder GED, and printed out the 169-page behemoth. I figured I’d spend a couple hours on Saturday working through the test and ace the thing. Surely it couldn’t be that difficult.

I couldn’t have been more wrong.

<snip>

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/13/ivy-league-grads-can-t-pass-the-new-ged.html

[NaturalHigh]

1. Hmm...very interesting.

I used to teach GED classes, and my students had a very good success rate. Just for the heck of it, I took the practice test we had once and missed one question. I wonder how those same students and I would fare on this test.

[pnwmom]

2. A community college student is living with us, who has been making excellent grades.

She's a high school dropout and was able to take the old GED in its last year -- thank goodness. It would have been a shame to deny her the chance of a good education just because of that new -- and unproven -- test.

[lonestarnot]

39. And you handily point to the reason for the new test. Keep an entire population at their disposal

for slave labor. Everything is economically based. Richies in on the test change at some point in the process somewhere, someone is making a profit on the subclass and the test administration would be just my guess.

[pnwmom]

41. I think all of this test mania is for the sake of the profit of a few. It's disgusting. n/t

[lonestarnot]

42. Certainly fucking is. Most assuredly is. Without a doubt is.

[ND-Dem]

108. it's also about ranking people and putting them into boxes so tight they can never escape.

and rationing all the good jobs for the upper middle class and better.

[pnwmom]

112. Yes, I think so, too.

[mountain grammy]

3. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

It's all about the money and squeezing it from those who have the least, a large percentage of GED testers. It's really unbelievable that our government can't find a way to fund this testing.

So when the rich and the corporations have all the money and can extort no more from the masses, will they turn on each other?

[demwing]

8. Then they will start a big war

Armageddon style, to decrease the surplus populations.

They will dine on our miseries, and drink from the wells of our sorrows.

[City Lights]

25. "They will dine on our miseries, and drink from the wells of our sorrows."

Truer words were never spoken.

[LittleBlue]

4. Shouldn't it be difficult to pass?

A GED is seven hours of testing instead of 4 years of education. That test should be pretty hard. He mentions not being able to find the answer to "balancing equations", ie basic algebra problems. I would expect more from an Ivy League grad.

[cali]

7. first of all, those who take the GED have some high school

but beyond that, it shouldn't be so hard that people such as this guy have such a difficult time with it- particularly the reading comprehension piece.

[ND-Dem]

47. and often, college ged courses as well.

and making it 4 times more expensive is pretty clearly a way to make sure fewer people take it, fewer poor people especially. and if they take it, more likely to fail.

close to $900 for the full series of tests, as opposed to the old price of around $200.

ged courses, which used to be free or close to it at community colleges, now carry fees too.

I hate these vampires that suck on the blood of the citizens.


"people who passed the GED didn’t catch up with those with a high-school diploma until they went on to get some post-secondary degree or certification"

but now they can't pass the ged so they can't get post-secondary education. win-win for the vampires who rule us.

[F4lconF16]

12. When's the last time you took one of those tests?

It wasn't that long ago that I was doing a whole bunch of them, from AP tests to SAT/ACT and practice tests, to GED equivalency tests that I did with a friend for fun.

They're not easy.

Even for people like me, who have always done particularly well in school, the tests are often far too hard. I can do calculus with ease, I love playing with differential equations and writing out long equation lists for physics, but I have a hard time with some of the SAT/ACT math problems. The terminology they use I've often never heard of, questions can be poorly worded or misleading, and on a rare occasion, I've simply never heard of what they're asking for. I aced my AP English tests, and yet I bombed parts of the writing section of various practice SATs because they ask you to choose what word fits best. If you've never heard of any of them, then it's a literal crapshoot. These tests are not just testing common knowledge and high school equivalency; they're testing whether you can figure out the test itself. It shouldn't be easy, but it should at least be doable.

Also, 7 hours is a terrifyingly long time to be taking a test. That's exhausting, and it makes thinking that much harder. Multiple-hour AP tests are rough; 4-5 hour SAT tests are really bad; I don't even want to imagine taking a test for 7 hours, even with breaks. Even bar exams are spread out over multiple days. Doing it after paying $120 and knowing that if I fail I have to pay that much again? That's a ton of stress.

He mentions not being able to find the answer to "balancing equations", ie basic algebra problems.

That's the thing--it's not always just "basic algebra problems". Often there's geometry involved (stuff that I know I haven't studied since middle school), which isn't too hard to figure out if you're good at math and have the time. There's often confusing wording, language that you're not familiar with, and other stuff.

[LittleBlue]

17. I took the SAT and didn't find it misleading

I googled the GED and it only goes up to geometry. Not even trigonometry. Geometry is a sophomore class. A normal progression at my high school took students from trig in junior year to pre-calculus in senior year.

That's the most difficult form of math on the GED. And it's multiple choice. 7 hours is grueling, but 4 years is much more grueling. Especially if you went into calc, honors English, AP history, etc. This test should be extraordinarily difficult if we're going to pretend it substitutes for 4 years of high school. Unlike high school math classes, you can guess at multiple choice and don't even have to show your work.

[pnwmom]

44. The writer of the OP said he got his lowest score on the liberal arts section,

even though he has a Masters Degree in a liberal arts subject and makes his living writing. The hardest section for him was in reading comprehension. That tells me something is seriously wrong with the new GED test.

[LittleBlue]

87. And if he took a comprehensive exam of the material from all his liberal arts programs

without studying, 10 years after completing his degree, he would also fail.

[pnwmom]

90. Reading comprehension tests, unlike math tests, are not supposed to rely on prior or

taught knowledge. They should NOT require studying -- just reading and thinking ability.

Unfortunately, the "correct" answer for a reading comprehension test can often be very subjective. Test makers are notorious for writing poor reading comprehension questions.

[LittleBlue]

93. You can study for those

Like the SAT, you can familiarize yourself with the thought process that goes in to solving critical reasoning problems.

George Bush is an Ivy League grad. Merely being from the Ivy League shouldn't guarantee passing the GED with no preparation. That is pure arrogance on the writer's part.

[pnwmom]

102. Again, reading comprehension tests are supposed to measure reading comprehension --

not test-taking tactical skills.

And many of them are far too subjective and/or confusing. And even with a well-written test, reading comprehension doesn't occur in a vacuum; it is more related to a person's overall background knowledge than to his or her de-coding ability.

http://educationnext.org/lets-tell-truth-high-stakes-tests-damage-reading-instruction/

A substantial body of research has consistently shown that reading comprehension relies on the reader knowing at least something about the topic he or she is reading about (and sometimes quite a lot). The effects of prior knowledge can be profound: Students who are ostensibly “poor” readers can suddenly comprehend quite well when reading about a subject they know a lot about—even outperforming “good” readers who lack background knowledge the “poor” readers possess.

Reading tests, however, treat reading comprehension as a broad, generalized skill. To be clear: Decoding, the knowledge of letter-sound relationships that enables you to pronounce correctly written words, is a skill. This is why early instruction in phonics is important. But reading comprehension, the ability to make meaning from decoded words, is far more complex. It’s not a skill at all, yet we test it like one, and in doing so we compel teachers to teach it like one. Doing so means students lose.

Even our best schools serving low-income children—public, parochial, and charter alike—have a much harder time raising ELA (English language arts) scores than math. This is unsurprising. Math is school-based and hierarchical (there’s a logical progression of content to be taught). But reading comprehension is cumulative. The sum of your experiences, interests, and knowledge, both in and out school, contribute to your ability to read with understanding. This is why affluent children who enjoy the benefit of educated parents, language-rich homes, and ample opportunities for growth and enrichment come to school primed to do well on reading tests—and why reading scores are hard to move.

[LittleBlue]

103. Would that be the same challenge faced by children at high schools?

The article says the questions are based on Common Core.

[pnwmom]

106. But the new GED test is not pre-tested for biased or misleading questions

and it has never been tested for scientific reliability -- unlike at least two other tests that other states are using which cover Common Core skills. And instead of costing students $30 a test, this private company is charging $120 a test -- too much for many students who need to re-test. So we allow them to charge a premium for a product that isn't proven to be reliable.

Why do you feel the need to defend a test designed by a private company, Pearson, that you're not even familiar with? Even though this untested test is now failing hundreds of thousands of students a year? Shouldn't you be asking questions about the reliability of that test when the results affect so many lives?

The article below compares the new GED to two other tests that cover common core and that other states are using instead. The new GED isn't the only option out there.

http://restoregedfairness.org/hiset-a-fairer-option

Educators write better tests the Wall Street Hedge Fund Managers

To begin with the University of Iowa College of Education has an excellent reputation for developing accurate, reliable and scientifically valid educational tests. This may not mean much to the general public or to political leaders. But it means a great deal to someone like me who has a degree in Science Education and believes in using the scientific method to design tests. By comparison, my experience with private for profit corporations is that they care very little about the scientific method. All they care about is maximizing short term profits.

Price is important when you have no money

The second factor is price. This is very important because most young adults who are taking these tests are either unemployed or working for a minimum wage. They simply cannot afford paying $120 for the first test and another $60 for a retest and another $60 for a practice test and another $200 for courses to prepare them to take or retake the test.

Not everyone has access to a computer

The third factor is is access. HiSET and TASC are can be taken the old fashioned way with paper and pencil while the GED is only available online. One may wonder why we still need a paper and pencil test. It is not merely that older people are not good with computers. It is also that many poor people do not have access to computers. They therefore may fail the test simply because they did not know how to use the computer. A “computer only” test therefore discriminates against the elderly and the poor.


Free Training and Free Practice Tests Increase Chances of Success

The fourth and very important factor is the availability of free practice tests and free training materials. The HiSET practice tests and training materials are much better than either those offered by the new GED or TASC. Having free access to better training materials will greatly increase the chances that students will pass the test.

SNIP

[LittleBlue]

110. I'm attacking the conclusion in the OP, not giving blanket support for the test

That because an Ivy League graduate couldn't pass without study, therefor it is too difficult. I don't agree with that. I don't agree that the sample questions I've seen are too difficult for a high school grad to tackle.

I will agree that increasing the price is bad, though.

[joeglow3]

116. True, but the things he said he missed ARE covered in high school

If we feel it needs to be dropped from the GED, we need to also discuss dropping it from high school.

[pnwmom]

129. Pearson's test isn't pre-tested with actual students or backed by

scientific tests showing its reliability. It isn't as if there's only one possible test or way to test whether students have learned Common Core skills.

And the writer says his worst score was in reading comprehension. The answers to reading comprehension tests are notoriously subjective -- and don't primarily measure skills taught in school, whether or not as part of Common core. Reading isn't primarily a matter of de-coding, or following rules: it's a matter of encountering content, and thinking, and putting it into context. People who are already familiar with the content of a test's reading passages have a major advantage over other people, and this knowledge can come from material taught in school OR just from living in a family with highly verbal, educated parents.

Interestingly, the same company (Pearson) that sells the test produces curriculum packages they sell to schools which -- just by coincidence, of course -- include some of the same reading passages they'll encounter in the tests. Other students using non-packaged curricula won't be exposed ahead of time to these texts. Guess which group of students does better on the tests? (And which curricula nervous principals are tempted to buy?) But it doesn't show that students are better on the Common Core SKILLS -- just that they were pre-exposed to the particular reading passages in their Pearson-packaged curricula.

[MADem]

82. Plenty of people graduate high school without having to pass calculus or trig.

Not all high school diplomas are the same--there's the "graduating and going into the workforce" diploma, with easier math classes, maybe a little algebra and geometry and not much more than that, and the "graduating and going on to college" diploma with tougher classes.

Many people don't take "honors" classes--they take the basics, they muddle through, and they get the paper and go out to work or the military. They probably couldn't pass this GED test, either.

[ND-Dem]

50. you don't have to -- or didn't use to have to -- sit for all the tests at once. you could take

one subject one time, another another time.

but it's $120 for just ONE of the 7 tests, not for the whole series. IOW, it's close to $900 to finish all 7.

[F4lconF16]

59. Ah, okay, thanks for the clarification.

And that is absolutely ludicrous.

[vive la commune]

67. That's just insane n/t

[ND-Dem]

69. You mean the $900? Agreed, and especially considering who the typical person sitting for

GED is: low income, family low income, young or slightly older, with kids.

Let's just put another block in any hope they might have of changing their lives, shall we? Because all they deserve is to be shat on by the rich.

[vive la commune]

75. Yeah, the $900 is insane

I was lucky to be able to get my GED (and GED classes) for free, in the late 80's. I had to go to work to support myself as a teenager. My mom and I lived in one of those (heavily roach infested) pay-by-the-week old downtown hotel rooms, and she didn't make enough money to support both of us. After I got my GED, I was able to get a minimum wage job and save up to eventually move out on my own. I did go to college much later. It's terrible that it's even crappier for young poor people now than it was for me in the Reagan era.

[ND-Dem]

76. The one thing that used to be great about this country (as opposed to many other 1st-world

countries) was that people had multiple chances to better themselves. In some places (much of the far east, parts of Europe) you're tracked from high school or even earlier, and there are few paths to leave your track once you're in it.

I hope we're not turning into that, but I fear we are. IMO, the post-war period was this country's greatest, in every field, and it was because of democratization in nearly every aspect of life.

[JonLP24]

21. Here is someone come along to defend it

Meanwhile more people go unemployed and earn less money.

[LittleBlue]

22. GEDs don't solve job shortages and poor pay

Our problem isn't that there aren't enough GEDs. It's that we don't have enough jobs paying a living wage. Granting a GED just means there are more people competing for the same limited number of crappy paying jobs.

Your problem is elsewhere.

[JonLP24]

24. More people are unemployed, more people earn less income

because more people won't earn GEDs.

This is what all this is really about. Anything else is "smoke and mirrors".

[LittleBlue]

26. That doesn't matter

Employers don't hire and pay based on the number of GEDs.

[pnwmom]

45. It does matter. Drop-outs can get into community college and certificate programs

by taking a GED.

[LittleBlue]

79. Yes, but it has nothing to do with the existing number of jobs and their pay

Getting a GED and then a community college education doesn't increase the number of well paying jobs.

It just means you can be one of the pool competing for those jobs. A GED solves an individual problem but does not increase the pay or number of jobs for everyone.

How is this so hard to understand?

[pnwmom]

86. You are conflating two separate issues.

Yes, there is a problem with the existing number of jobs. We need more.

But that doesn't mean that GED's -- the subject of the OP you are responding to -- are unimportant. They are very important to the people who need them to have any chance to be in the job pool.

How is that so hard to understand?

[ND-Dem]

51. are you for real?

[LittleBlue]

80. The level of critical reasoning on this forum

is utterly depressing. How can you all not see that the issue of well-paying jobs has nothing to do with the number of GEDs granted?

Shocking.

[ND-Dem]

81. how can you not see that nobody said they were? Heal thyself, physician. Or work on

your reading & logic skills.

1. More and better paying jobs are needed in the US.
2. Regardless, a GED is a path to getting more education and a better job.

Both are true.

[LittleBlue]

84. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I replied to

Here is the post from above:

Meanwhile more people go unemployed and earn less money

My point is that precisely the same number of people will go unemployed and earn less money whether an individual is granted a GED or not.

[ND-Dem]

88. It may be. However, with GED at least some people from the bottom of the income distribution

will be able to compete for some of the better paying jobs.

Got a problem with that? Would you prefer only the middle class and better have access to them? Cause it's sure starting to seem like it.

[LittleBlue]

91. I would prefer we increase the number of well-paying jobs

and pay overall. And I would also not criticize the GED if it wanted to be taken seriously as a substitute for 4 years of high school.

[ND-Dem]

96. You set it up as a choice between the two when it's not and when there is no plan or programme

or movement to increase well-paying jobs (and little chance it will happen given the direction of politics today).

Then you give out with a lot of specious bullshit about how the GED needs to be 'taken seriously as a substitute for 4 years of high school" which is just another way of saying "make it so hard that few people can pass".

If you'd read the article you'd have read that GED students catch up with their HS-educated peers as soon as they take a few community college classes. It's not their HS education that makes it possible: it's the fact that they were allowed into college, because for anyone with a will to do it and basic reading and math skills, a basic college education ain't that difficult. It's all about jumping through hoops and learning the drill.

But you'd foreclose that opportunity in some specious demand for phony rigor. Rigor mortis, killing people and their hopes.

[LittleBlue]

99. Then why don't we just do away with the GED altogether?

The old GED obviously denied some people entry into community college. Not everyone was able to pass. If you're taking that line of thinking, shouldn't community college be open to everyone? Why deny someone a chance to better themselves at community college merely because they weren't able to pass high school or an easier GED?

[ND-Dem]

100. Actually, since you could take free classes, take the test multiple times, and it was free or

cheap, you could pass eventually if you were serious about it.

And yeah, personally I think community college should be open to everyone. GED classes were typically given at community colleges, which brought non-traditional students into college and familiarized them with its norms. That was a good thing.

Most of my students dropped out of high school for lack of interest, family reasons, because they got pregnant and the like. They weren't stupid by any means, certainly not as stupid as some middle class folks who presumed to judge them.

"An easier ged" = you not knowing what you're talking about.

[LittleBlue]

104. I googled one of these so-called impossible math questions

So just plugging in numbers to a basic y=mx+b problem without having to solve for the variables. The answers are right below and the test taker doesn't even have to show his/her work, unlike high school.

Sorry, but if this is the standard, I agree with the standard. With enough practice, anyone who is serious about community college can learn this. The only thing simpler than this problem is basic arithmetic.

[ND-Dem]

107. Maybe you don't get the fact that not every high school requires linear equations for

graduation. or that's it's possible to graduate while doing very poorly at linear equations if you did well in other areas.

If you think no one should pass 'high school' or be allowed to continue their education without mastering linear equations, I'd say that's stupid and counter-productive for individuals and for society as a whole.

To graduate from Thurston High School, students are required to pass 4 semesters of math classes, or two full year classes. This will result in two credits, the graduation requirement. These requirements can be fulfilled by completing any combination of the above classes, so long as they are done in the correct order. Math may still be taken after the requirements are met, but the credit will be put into the elective credit slot, instead of math.

for example, at Thurston HS you could fulfill graduation requirements by taking a year of general math and a year of pre-algebra.

http://ths.sps.lane.edu/math/

[LittleBlue]

109. You don't have to understand linear equations to pass the GED

Presumably the entire math section isn't linear equations. This is just one example. I fully agree with this level of testing. This is a basic standard and I'm shocked that this wasn't the standard before.

[ND-Dem]

111. you have to pass each one of the tests. if linear equations aren't the standard for HS graduation

why should they be the standard for GED?

In fact, if you could get through high school without ever doing linear equations (as I did, and went on to get a masters degree in a science), then why should you have to do them on a GED test?

You're shocked, shocked.

Me too.

[whopis01]

115. I think the Oregon Department of Education would disagree

Is Thurston HS accredited by the state? Because according to the state of Oregon, the graduation requirements include 3 math credits of Algebra I or higher. That would certainly cover single variable linear equations.

http://www.ode.state.or.us/teachlearn/certificates/diploma/diploma-at-a-glance-2013-14.pdf

[ND-Dem]

120. and i think you must have missed the star by the requirements that footnoted

"new requirement beginning in 2014"

http://www.ode.state.or.us/teachlearn/certificates/diploma/diploma-at-a-glance-2013-14.pdf

IOW, part of the common core crap, designed to produce more dropouts. the same corporate-sponsored crap that produced the new GEDs.

[whopis01]

124. I did not miss that star at all - and last time I looked at the calendar it is 2015

Perhaps you missed that this was for students graduating in 2014 - not entering high school in 2014.

Students entering 9th grade in the 2010/2011 school year had to meet that requirement to graduate last year.

Just glad to see Oregon is catching up with the rest of the nation here. I know that in Florida (which is always held out as a shining star for education standards) required algebra at least since the 80s.

In all seriousness - I doubt there is any state diploma that doesn't require algebra.

[ND-Dem]

125. Point being, the requirement is NEW. I graduated HS in WA with intro to algebra too.

And managed to finish graduate school in the sciences without anything higher, like algebra 1.

It's all of the same piece, sponsored by corporate America to further divide people into little boxes for profit and increase the percentage of poor people cut off from any opportunity.

A lot of people apparently buy into that crap. Like those who think Florida is a fucking "shining star" for education. What a crock.

[whopis01]

127. I guess they didn't cover sarcasm either when you where in HS

Otherwise you would have been able to see the "Florida being a shining star in education" comment for what it was. I even included an "in all seriousness" line after that to indicate it wasn't meant seriously, but rather as a joke.


May I ask what "sciences" your graduate degree is in?

[ND-Dem]

128. may i ask why you decided to put sciences in scare quotes, usually used

"to imply that it may not signify its apparent meaning or that it is not necessarily the way the quoting person would express its concept. The quotes serve a function similar to verbally prefixing a phrase with "so-called". When referred to as "scare quotes", the quotation marks are suggested to imply skepticism of or disagreement with the quoted terminology."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes


and your "sarcasm" was rather backhanded, since it more or less said "even florida has required algebra since the 80s" & I say so fucking what? it's perfectly logical for a state led by people whose aim is to create more poor people and grind them into the dirt.

And if florida has required algebra since the 80s, I must say it doesn't seem to have improved conditions in florida one fucking bit. in fact, just as expected, florida has ONE OF THE HIGHEST HIGH SCHOOL DROPOUT RATES IN THE COUNTRY.

Florida's high school graduation rate among lowest in nation: 75% of Florida students graduate high school; 5% lower than national average

http://www.local10.com/news/floridas-high-school-graduation-rate-among-lowest-in-nation/25699404

...which is great for the supply of cheap labor, crime and drug-dealing, but not for much else.


"Just glad to see Oregon is catching up with the rest of the nation here. I know that in Florida (which is always held out as a shining star for education standards) required algebra at least since the 80s.

In all seriousness - I doubt there is any state diploma that doesn't require algebra."

Until 2014, Oregon was a state which didn't require it to graduate, and it's only because of corporate sponsored common core that it does now.

Like I say, more ways for the rich to rank the general population, create more poor people, and grind them into dirt. You and your pal apparently support this effort.

[whopis01]

132. There are no scare quotes there - just plain old quotes indicating that the wording was not mine

I simply used the quotes because the phrase "to finish graduate school in the sciences" was worded in way that I found odd. Particularly the word sciences with no qualifier as to what area. I in no way meant to imply any level of skepticism regarding your statement. I actually was pondering which field of science would not require knowledge of linear equations and was having a hard time finding one. "Sciences" could imply anything from biology to chemistry to sociology, to physics, to political sciences, etc. But I kept coming back to the thought that in a graduate program in any of these, surely you would have to use basic algebra, even if just to plot historical trends and the such. I realize that I could be mistaken about this, but honestly couldn't think of a case where it would not apply - hence why I was asking you which field of science your graduate degree is in. It was in no way intended as a challenge, it was merely for my own curiosity and understanding. If it came across as anything else, I apologize, that was never my intention.

I think that sarcasm, by its very nature, is backhanded, wouldn't you agree?

I think you are still missing my point regarding the graduation requirements of Florida. Let me be clear - Florida has a horrible education system. The education system in Florida is designed to produce a cheap labor force and not much else as far as I am concerned. You seemed to be laboring under the misunderstanding that I was trying to say Florida's requirements of algebra for graduation was something beneficial to the education system, or that this somehow made the education system better. I never said anything of the kind.

My point has been that you said "if linear equations aren't the standard for HS graduation why should they be the standard for GED?" and "Maybe you don't get the fact that not every high school requires linear equations for graduation", and I believed that those statements were incorrect and I still believe that they are incorrect. You may argue that at some point this was not required, but your statements use the present tense, and in the present (2015) I do not believe that they are correct. At least for state accredited high schools.

[ND-Dem]

133. you didn't quote the phrase, you quoted the word "sciences". that's a scare quote.

From your post #127:

May I ask what "sciences" your graduate degree is in?

and you said:

to finish graduate school in the sciences" was worded in way that I found odd. Particularly the word sciences with no qualifier as to what area.

the 'qualifier' was 'the'. "The sciences" = the entire spectrum of science-related disciplines, as in 'the arts' or 'the arts and sciences'. I chose not to specify which science because I really don't want people to know that much about me, especially internet people.


and no, sarcasm isn't and can't be backhanded or it stops being sarcasm.

compliments can be backhanded; i.e. insincere, oblique, equivocal


see, though I wasn't any great shakes at math, I was in the top 1% in the nation at language skills. that's how I passed high school and all those standardized tests.

apparently your talents and weaknesses lean the opposite way. maybe you should think about that little thing.

[whopis01]

134. I never claimed to have quoted the full phrase

To have done so would have been awkward the way I worded my question. In any case I explained my use of the quotes and even apologized if it came across in a way other than how I had intended. I assure you once again, there was never any insult intended.

I understand the desire to protect ones privacy. I was not attempting to pry into anything.

I do disagree with your comment that sarcasm isn't and can't be backhanded. In fact if you look up the definition of backhanded (via Merriam-Webster) you will see this:

1:indirect, devious; especially :sarcastic <a backhanded compliment>

http://i.word.com/idictionary/backhanded


You see, when I said that Florida "is always held out as a shining star for education standards" I was really meaning the exact opposite of that. I was using words with the opposite meaning for humorous purposes.


http://i.word.com/idictionary/sarcasm

I realize that without the tone of the spoken word there are less clues and hints as to what is sarcasm. Hence why so many people on discussion boards use a sarcasm tag of some form. I just find having the sarcasm labelled as such takes the fun out of it.

[ND-Dem]

135. You don't understand the meaning of backhanded. A backhanded compliment is really an

insult.

So backhanded sarcasm is? Not sarcasm.

As I said: I'm in the top 1% for language skills and the bottom 40% for math skills. You're likely something near the opposite.

[whopis01]

139. You are not following what was said very clearly.

I never said "backhanded sarcasm". I said that sarcasm was backhanded. Those two statements are not the same at all. Surely you can see that.

Clearly the definitions of the terms backhanded and sarcasm support what I am saying. Then definition of backhanded actually included sarcastic.

It would appear that this discussion has devolved to the point where it only exists for you to claim I said or meant something which I did not say or mean, and then argue against it.

I clearly am outclassed being up against a linguistic one percenter such as yourself. As such I will let you have the last word (I realize that is a thing on these forums and is quite important to some).

I concede all points you wish to claim and await your response.

[ND-Dem]

140. ah, but i clearly implied you were a math 1%er, so why the sarcasm and hostility?

see, there's no backhandedness: the sarcasm and hostility weren't disguised.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Sarcasm is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter gibe or taunt." Sarcasm may employ ambivalence, although sarcasm is not necessarily ironic. "The distinctive quality of sarcasm is present in the spoken word and manifested chiefly by vocal inflections". The word comes from the Greek ???????ό? (sarkasmos) which is taken from ????ά???? meaning "to tear flesh, bite the lip in rage, sneer".[1]

[jen1980]

29. Exactly. They don't want us to have jobs.

That is their plan.

[JonLP24]

32. It is obvious

Not necessarily jobs but a large labor supply which lowers the wages because the demand for work is sky high

it is going on all around us.

This is another trick aimed at the same result and this is just from last night
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/12/todd-rokita-union-wage-bill-could-be-part-of-minim/

[ND-Dem]

136. and some on this board feel the same.

[ND-Dem]

60. You're right that there aren't enough decent paying jobs. But GED is the first step for someone

confined to a crap job because of lack of a high school graduation. You can get a crap job without a high school diploma. GED is a first step to community college, college, or technical college.

These aren't mutually exclusive: GED or better jobs.

[LittleBlue]

83. I understand that. It is an economic solution for an individual person

So they can throw their hat in the ring for a better job. But that is just one more hat into a huge pool of people.

It has nothing to do with the scarcity of jobs that pay a living wage in this country. Throw your hat in that ring and everyone else's chance to get the job decreases accordingly. Only one person from that pool of applicants will be hired, the same as if that person hadn't gotten a GED. Except now one additional person has student loan debt from the community college.

My issue with the poster above is that he stated this in a way that misleads people into thinking that more GEDs = more opportunity. It doesn't. It just means more people are competing for the same piss-poor number of marginally better jobs.

[ND-Dem]

85. Yes, it's a solution for individuals. Would you deny them that without any viable alternative?

Do you want to deny them that to decrease the competition for better educated people (who are better educated usually because they were born into better circumstances).

What's your problem with it?

And no, since getting a ged can get you into college, and college can get you into more than a 'piss poor' job, you're wrong on the possibilities a ged can offer.

and since clever folks like you have still not managed to increase the supply of good jobs or jobs generally, why is it you have a hard on against geds, which at least offer non-graduates some chance to improve their situation?

[LittleBlue]

89. I would have the GED be a serious examination and not a joke

The idea that someone should be able to take a test over 4 years of knowledge, without studying, and merely breeze through it, that sort of thing is why the US education system has received so much criticism.

[ND-Dem]

92. It always was a serious examination, and people didn't "breeze through it" without studying

unless their reasons for not finishing high school weren't about doing poorly on the course work or not completing it.

Personally, it seems to me you want to keep poor people poor, and I find it sickening.

[LittleBlue]

94. You are a member who joined 2 days ago

Personally, it seems to me you want to keep poor people poor, and I find it sickening.

Your feigned outrage is recognized as an attempt to troll.

[ND-Dem]

97. I'm a person who's taught GED to poor students. And who, knowing a bit of logic, knows

that the number of days I've been a member on this website is irrelevant to my reasons for posting here or the truth of what I'm saying.

You have 7000 posts. Some people have over 100,000 so who made you boss of DU?

And at some time you were also a member of two days standing. Were you a troll then? And if so, when did you stop being a troll? What was the number of posts required?

[Fumesucker]

113. Welcome to DU

Nicely said, you'll do fine here..

[ND-Dem]

137. Thanks. I notice you have more posts than "Little Blue," too.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

40. I have never worked anywhere where GED applications didn't go...

straight in the trash.

[JonLP24]

43. I don't understand

Whatever the argument is, the reality is a push to make a GED more difficult to pass (especially if they try to trick you in the presentation) with corporate privatization behind it means they're putting an effort to have more unemployment and less earnings. It would also the already unemployed who doesn't have a GED will be less likely to get one.

No matter what we argue here today the result will be the same. See the GOP doesn't think in terms of the people that didn't show up to vote and it is their own fault, no they have a highly financed, multi-coordinated effort to make voting more difficult. They don't think "finish high school, not that complicated" no they think in the group based on education with the highest unemployment and least amount of earnings so lets make it more difficult to earn a GED. Another front on class warfare.

[ND-Dem]

55. +100

[pnwmom]

46. People use GED's to get into community college and from there into universities.

You wouldn't even know which of those students got into college with a GED.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

49. That's fine, all roads lead to Rome

I know an English professor who didn't finish high school because his parents divorce kept flinging him back and forth between the UK and here and he fell in the cracks between two irreconcilably different school systems.

Just don't expect the world at large to accept your GED in lieu of high school. It won't.

[pnwmom]

52. I don't have a GED. But those who do don't need to have them accepted

by the world at large. They can use them to get into college; and many employers also accept them, for jobs that don't require college degrees. I know someone employed by a department store with only a GED. She has used it to get into college and is almost half way through a four year degree.

[ND-Dem]

58. Yes, I've known a lot of people who took the same route and did very well. It seems this is

a more to foreclose second chances. Which are one of the things I used to think was great about our country.

[JonLP24]

63. Especially if you read the article

He got a correct answer over something I have never seen some ever do at DU when talking about TV shows.

Other parts of the test I just disagreed with. I got a grammar question wrong because I put the title of a TV show in quotes, but didn’t also underline it. (Seriously, no one would write “Master Chef” like this, especially not underlined, yet that’s what the answer sheet on my practice test called for.) And while I, an adult writer working in the real world, can argue about something like that with my editor, there’s no back and forth with the test. Your answer is right or it’s wrong and there’s nothing you can do about it.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/13/ivy-league-grads-can-t-pass-the-new-ged.html

The ability to comprehend the question being asked is key too (which he says he had a difficulty comparing it to a 1849 essay by Thomas De Quincey) and I bet they tried to make it as confusing as possible. The question is easier to answer if it is easier to comprehend

[ND-Dem]

65. I hear ya. I'm recovering from meningitis (infection of the covering of the brain) and am

doing rehabilitative work, looking towards re-employment. I used to be reasonably quick and intelligent, especially in language (top1% on all those tests) -- I'm currently working on something called "Keytrain" which is supposed to place you at your 'level' for shitty employment. It covers language skills, math, and a bunch of other areas.

So I started on the language stuff which I figured would be my best, and despite my brain infection scored at the top level without working through their practice materials.

But what pissed me off was their stupid test contained multiple spelling errors. And I'm fairly sure it's proprietary, as it costs $48 to sit the stupid test, which is required for any local government job here.

I mean, kill me now. Somebody has a well-paid job writing this crap with spelling errors and I can't do better than minimum wage at this point, despite being able to find the spelling errors, even AFTER MY BRAIN WAS INFECTED FOR THREE MONTHS.

[JonLP24]

74. I know what you mean, very well.

Over a lifetime I've had several falls involving the head that is a number I can't count but a number too high I can't estimate and even though I don't have a diagnosis I can feel my memory going and other things. I used to be able to have arguments the way you're supposed to have arguments and everyone around me was happy, one thing I could do is focus on the issue, something irrelevant or bait I could easily handle that in relevance and return back to the issue that often times I'll forget the issue when the bait arrives and I'll be lost trying to figure out what it was or I won't notice the bait and go with it.

I'm also hypoglycemic so when I have low blood sugar I'll have mental confusion, disorganized thoughts, & recent amnesia so I know I'd have trouble even doing the one I passed over a decade ago. I also had a 111 GT Score (110 is a requirement for Warrant Officer) when I was in the military but my mind is clearly not what it used to be.

Clearly a test shouldn't be false when it comes up with correct answers or a test should be correct in general. Its like the people who would be taking a GED test could probably figure out a smarter test.l

[ND-Dem]

77. "the people who would be taking a GED test could probably figure out a smarter test"

I wouldn't be surprised.

[vive la commune]

66. I have a GED

I left high school and supported myself (barely) with low-wage work (maid, personal care assistant), starting at age 16, then went to college later in life. I graduated Magna Cum Laude with a Bachelor's of Science. I studied hard and did well. I also had a lot of help. Thank God for Pell Grant and Department of Vocational Rehab funds and Section 8 housing and all those other horrible "handouts". I wouldn't have been able to do it otherwise.

[ND-Dem]

70. +100

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

101. I don't think the unconventional student is the typical GED situation

and I don't think it should be sold as an alternative to high school because it just isn't widely accepted as one.

[JonLP24]

62. There are two worlds though the one with the GED or the one without

Day labor jobs. They require a GED. You don't have a GED? Can't work at day labor.

I know the world of those who don't have a GED, let's just say its hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps without one. I always had GED, it is a different story now but at first it was easy to find work or set up interviews. I always fail interviews but I made it an interview with a GED nonetheless.

[ND-Dem]

54. Well, I have. Any low-level job will take a GED: janitor, restaurant work, etc. And for people

who screwed up their high school, GED is the first step to getting back on track and into college or some kind of technical degree.

But yeah, better to say to everyone, "Well, too bad, you screwed up in your teens and you're therefore condemned for the rest of your life."

Seems a lot of folks here think that is just hunky-dory.

[Egnever]

61. I have never worked anywhere that actually looked to see if you actually graduated

Funny that.

[pnwmom]

57. He has a Masters Degree in a liberal arts subject from Columbia University

and said the hardest section was the reading comprehension section. That tells me something is wrong with the test. Having seen enough examples, I believe there were too many questions requiring subjective judgments on questions such as: "What is the main idea of this passage?"

[BlueinOhio]

121. Within Reason

Most of the students who take the GED have already passed the test to graduate high school. If that test is so important and they have met the requirements for that test. They should be automatically enrolled in an associate degree program. The GED is now a money maker with repeated classes and tests given and repeated. Corporation based programs maxiumize profits with no benefit to people. Money would be best spent with the students getting associate degrees.

[MannyGoldstein]

5. Point taken, but...

I suspect that when their children hit high school, the vast bulk of Ivy League graduates need to read up on the topics the kids are working on to remember the stuff and give them a hand. E.g., who remembers geometrical proofs of congruence for more than a few months after they've been taught?

Regards,

Tired-Shtick Manny

[nichomachus]

6. Exactly. It's like "Are you smarter than a fifth grader."

That doesn't show that adults are stupid as much as it shows how much useless crap we teach schools kids -- things they will never use and don't remember long after the test.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. I certainly agree with some of that

However... I think there's something to be said for exposing kids to different subjects to see what they like and have aptitude for. But we need to be smarter about this process!

[nichomachus]

15. I agree

But to insinuate that adults are dumb because they don't have specific knowledge that kids are drilled on is ridiculous. I agree that we need to expose kids to all sorts of things, but shouldn't expect them to retain knowledge they have no use for.

[msanthrope]

23. Me, Manny. Some of us weren't handed an Ivy League education.....

we had to earn it.

[MannyGoldstein]

30. Can you translate that into common, direct language

For dumbasses like me?

[msanthrope]

34. I am sure, with your self-professed Cornell education, you know

precisely what I mean.

[MannyGoldstein]

36. You're pretty impressed by my education.

Certainly, more than I am! I recall bringing it up in one post ever out of 30k of 'em, and that was in the context of having classmates who've been unemployed for years.

But you - and a few others - bring it up often. C'est la vie.

I will say one thing - as a Cornell Engineering undergrad in the 1980s, nobody handed me @#$%. Fully half of the students who started in that engineering program flunked out over time, it was brutal, nasty stuff. Every course was graded on a bell curve centered at 2.5, (B-/C+), and IIRC 20% of students in each course had to fail, or the professor was in deep @#$%. A GPA under 2.0 earned a semester of academic probation, under a 2.0 twice in a row and you were kicked out -- even in one's senior year.

I take a little pride in having survived the thing, but it was ultimately ridiculous to treat students like that. Goddess knows, nobody was handed anything there, it was all earned though a ridiculous amount of work, and not being the brightest bulb in the chandelier didn't make it any easier for me.

[msanthrope]

38. Impressed? Not in the least.

http://m.

That, Manny...is impressive.

[MannyGoldstein]

53. Achingly-beautiful campus

Chimes every hour were lovely, also IIRC two chime mini-concerts each day.

Of course, the beauty is somewhat different this time of year:





And I sure do miss this:

This one's new since my time, but it is @#$%ing hysterical:

Well, thanks for continuing to stir up these bittersweet memories as you continue (for some reason) to bring up my education that you're not at all impressed with.

[Cryptoad]

9. Could we not just have ,,,

some Proclamation of Educationist and skip the test ,,,,, well not the test fee of coarse!

[oneview]

10. Thanks for this! I'm teaching a "pre-GED" class right now --

I've heard that the new test, which is the only one I have any experience with, is a lot harder. There was a piece on McNeill-Lehrer (the News Hour on PBS) a few days ago about this.

The only thing I would caution about this conclusion is this: the test found is NOT made by the testmakers, which is GEDtestingservice, which is part of Pearson, the big test people.

A lot of times, practice tests made by others, like this one, can in fact be a lot more DIFFICULT than the real test. I have taken a free practice math test from GEDtestingservice, which granted, was hard, but more in the presentation rather than the actual math (kind of ACT-like in a way, simple stuff made to look complicated).

There are also freely available a bunch of practice questions from GEDtestingservice at their website; working through the Science ones with my class, for example, we did find that most of the questions, the vast majority maybe, can be answered without any real particular scieince knowledge; test-skills, common sense/daily logic, reading ability and a little simple math can get you through a lot of them.

[F4lconF16]

13. This.

I have taken a free practice math test from GEDtestingservice, which granted, was hard, but more in the presentation rather than the actual math (kind of ACT-like in a way, simple stuff made to look complicated)

Simple stuff made to look complicated is exactly what it is. These tests wouldn't be so bad if the language and questions weren't often written so poorly. If it was redesigned to be clearer, use common language, etc., I don't think they'd be so bad.

[Enrique]

14. i need to work on my reading comprehension

i was thinking this was about the GRE, and I was confused.

[perdita9]

16. I flunked my 7th grade kid's English comprehension test

And I have a master's degree from a fancy university. And I've published books and papers.

I told his teacher, a seemingly intelligent, well-educated woman about it. She confessed to flunking her 5th grade daughter's English exam.

I've said for years that the problem is more with the testing than with the students.

[Warpy]

18. Many things we learn in high school are simply not applicable to life

unless our profession is teaching, especially naming verb tenses or parts of speech. I'm not certain I could name all that stuff, myself, and one of my jobs in nursing school was tutoring English.

I'd approach the GED with a great deal of trepidation because of the focus of high school on mostly useless triviality.

Perhaps this is a sign that what needs to be changed is high school.

[logosoco]

19. This is sad to learn about.

I dropped out of high school in the 9th grade and took the GED after 6 weeks of classes. I was 16 (almost 17) and had no real high school education. This was in 1981. I am sure the test and getting the certificate did not cost more than $7. It enabled me to go on to community college at the same time my HS graduating class did.

I guess the aim of making the test hard and expensive is to discourage people even more.

[JonLP24]

20. I wonder who came up with the new GED

probably someone who wants to keep incomes lower.

Interesting find Cali. Their creativity is impressive considering they looking under every rock, nook, and canny to take a penny away from us so we have to be on alert for their dirty tricks where ever they may be.

ACORN in 2008 was no accident, just the beginning of the "War on Voting" so even if we may think something may be insignificant, the Republican party isn't taking any chances and that scares me because we are playing fair when the game isn't.

this is what is missing from the OP

[woolldog]

27. How about people just finish high school?

Not that complicated.

[JonLP24]

31. In the end

more people are unemployed & more people are earning less income.

I attended 8th grade junior high in Mesa Arizona. I took Keyboarding as an elective (that counts as however many credits). Circumstances changed I started High School in Flagstaff, Arizona for 9th grade I took courses, that counted as credits as well as electives. Circumstances changed, I was back in Junior High in Mesa Arizona for the 2nd semester of 9th grade. One of my courses happened to be the very same Keyboarding class with the very same teacher (who mysteriously didn't treat it as odd or try to clear up) which is a class I happened to Ace. Aced it again which is probably why typing fast & accurately is the skill I'm better at than any other skill.

10th grade high school in Mesa Arizona it became apparent due to the credits lost going to Flagstaff and the credits lost from Flagstaff that I would require a lot of high school. I switched to Tempe High due to the year round schooling but the fatigue from traveling it became too much so the simpler solution was to drop out and get my GED.

[Starry Messenger]

37. Life events don't always make it simple.

Some teens face difficult family struggles that gets them behind in credits. Not everyone lives a Mayberry-like existence.

[ND-Dem]

72. says the man of limited experience

[roody]

95. High school can be a horrible nightmare for many kids.

[madinmaryland]

35. Chuckle..."I'm glad we don't have to play the Rams anymore," wide receiver Larry Fitzgerald.

I really like that graphic you posted. So true.

[oberliner]

28. He should try taking the Grade 5 Math Common Core test

Now those are some tough questions.

[JonLP24]

64. He says the Math questions in the GED test are consistent with the Common Core

Its near the bottom of the article.

[yeoman6987]

33. Considering it is equivalent to getting a high school diploma,

it should be tough. Lets say they quit school Sophmore year. They take a test and finish while peers have years yet to finish. Yes it should be just as difficult to finish and pass. Getting the GED might gain some respect too.

[JonLP24]

48. There is a recent push to make it dramatically tougher than previous edition

a dramatic increase leads to more & continued unemployment & less wages. We can discuss that aspect of it all we want, just more people out of work is the real world result.

On that subject, the high school diploma labor market isn't equivalent to the GED labor market and the no GED labor market is usually features a lot of chronically homeless people.

[workinclasszero]

56. One more way to fuck the poor..welcome to Randian Amerika! /nt

[KyleMcShades]

68. Of course they made it almost impossible to pass..

All those people who fail it will have to take it again, which means more profits. I can't understand why anyone would be convinced that privatization is a good idea.

Also, I took the GED test when I was 17, before this change. It covered everything that a high school graduate would be expected to know. It worked fine.

This was a terrible idea.

[CK_John]

71. Only 1/2 college grads have jobs so why let all into college.

[whatthehey]

144. Pretty sure graduate unemployment <50%.....<5% even.

[hunter]

73. I quit high school before the GED.

Just three signatures -- one from the high school principal, one from a college admissions officer, one from a parent, and I was out of there.

College was awesome, no more bullies beating me, no more adults dismissing high school violence by telling me to "be a man" and other blame-the-victim bullshit.

By the time my sister was ready to quit high school the GED was in place. She stopped going to classes just as soon as she'd scheduled the exam, confident she'd pass. She did.

Funny thing, of all my siblings, it's my sister and I who earned the only four year university degrees.

In any case, treating education as a business, and a lucrative one at that, is just one more way we are flushing this nation's future down the toilet.

The GED and any prep for it ought to be free, just as high school itself is. Hell, college ought to be free too, for all subjects, and paid like a job in fields where there are shortages of qualified employees.

[ND-Dem]

78. +100

[ProfessorGAC]

118. I Left After Three Years

But i was in a private school, so while i really did not have everything they wanted, i more than satisfied the state requirements for Illinois.

So, a group of 8 guys told the school, we were going to drop out, go to the nearest public high school, enroll, and then graduate. Since 7 of the 8 guys were in the top 10 of the class, including the val and sal, they didn't want the #4 guy getting val and the #9 guy getting sal. So, they just signed off on it and all 8 of us went to college a year early.

We avoided the GED that way and made ourselves all feel like successful rebels.

[hunter]

123. My own kids, straight A honors students, staged a few high school rebellions...

... but nothing so brazen as that!

[ProfessorGAC]

126. Yeah, Real Brazen!

Of course, we did think that at the time.

In retrospect, 8 members of the NHS leaving high school with all state credits required in 1973 wasn't exactly burning a draft card in 1968.

[cwydro]

98. I have no doubt that I would flunk any test with algebrea.

But, I'm usually great in the English/liberal arts tests. (Which is of course why I never will make the big bucks lol!)

Would love to try it.

[pnwmom]

105. Also, the new GED has not been pre-tested for fairness with actual high school students

or scientifically tested for reliability -- unlike other available tests that are less expensive.

http://restoregedfairness.org/hiset-a-fairer-option

[GeorgeGist]

114. Cute anecdote by ONE Ivy League grad.

[Android3.14]

117. Sounds contrived

I looked over several sample questions, and while it is tougher, the test appears valid and rigorous.
The author was probably unprepared for the test, despite having such an awesome SAT score.

[Thespian2]

119. Testing

has little or nothing to do with education. Curiosity is the basis of education, and it cannot be tested.

[BubbaFett]

122. As far as High School goes,

I got the "high" part - school part? not so much.

[jwirr]

130. I took mine in 1965 without any preps and passed all the test with my lowest being math. Went on

to get a four year degree and then an MSW with good GPAs. The testers then knew that there are things that you learn as an adult after you drop out of high school and it did not ask trivial questions like the one about Thomas de Quincey. Exactly why do we need to know about him?

What the article is telling me is that the door to higher education is being closed to a lot of people who may do just fine in college. A part of the dumbing down of America. No wonder we are giving so many visas to immigrants who come because we do not have qualified workers. Hopefully the colleges will notice that they have less students coming in.

[ND-Dem]

138. "the door to higher education is being closed to a lot of people who may do just fine in college"

"No wonder we are giving so many visas to immigrants who come because we do not have qualified workers."

we have qualified workers. ask computer people. they just won't work as cheaply as their masters desire.

[jwirr]

141. Yes, but there is going to come a time in the near future when the older workers start to retire and

we need the kids they are not educating now. We need to get rid of that visa program but it is not going to happen in the next two years.

[ND-Dem]

143. I agree, we need to get rid of the visa program. But it doesn't exist for lack of qualified

workers, it exists to drive down wages.

[MineralMan]

131. Well, at least one Ivy League grad couldn't pass it.

I'm not sure the general statement is accurate, though. We have one data point. That's all.