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Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 01:18 PM Jan 2015

We need to start recognizing the rights of the victims of "self defense" shootings.

Most people believe that we have a right to self defense, but rarely do we talk about the rights of those who are killed by a person who claims self defense.

While it is true that a person who is dead is unable to exercise their rights, I believe that any just legal system would treat them as if they did have rights. If I were ever killed by a person who claimed self defense I know that I would like to be treated as innocent until proven guilty after my death, I certainly would not want the courts to just take the shooter at his or her word when they claim I was a threat.

Looking at the killings of people like Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, John Crawford, Eric Garner, and numerous other cases it is clear that all of these people were treated as if they have no rights what so ever. They were all treated as guilty until proven innocent and the right to "self defense" of their killers was placed above every last one of the victim's rights.

I think most of us can agree that there are certain cases in which self defense is justifiable, but I wish we could also agree that a person who was killed by someone who claims self defense should also have rights. Proof of their guilt should have to be provided, no one should be able to just gun a person down without being able to firmly establish that they posed a real threat. While people have the right to self defense that right should not outweigh every last one of the rights of the person they claim to have defended themself against.

We need laws in place which firmly establish rights for those who are killed by people who claim self defense, until we start respecting the rights of shooting victims we will keep seeing more Trayvon Martins and Michael Browns.

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We need to start recognizing the rights of the victims of "self defense" shootings. (Original Post) Bjorn Against Jan 2015 OP
I think so too. bravenak Jan 2015 #1
So how did we get here? Savannahmann Jan 2015 #8
Trayvon Martin wasn't self defense, and Eric Garner wasn't shot. NYC_SKP Jan 2015 #2
Yes, people should have to stop and think about whether they can prove someone poses a threat Bjorn Against Jan 2015 #4
you mean the right to walk home on the street at night or hollysmom Jan 2015 #3
The courts do not "just take the shooter at his or her word" Jim Lane Jan 2015 #5
This is not an issue in places like the UK. Nye Bevan Jan 2015 #6
I vote to recognize the rights of everyone. ileus Jan 2015 #7
 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
8. So how did we get here?
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 06:00 PM
Jan 2015

I outlined it a while ago, but I'll do so again.

It wasn't a single decision, nor even just a couple. It was a lot of little steps to get where we are. First, the decision that if you perceive a weapon, there is one. A man walks into a bank. He waits patiently in line, and then once at the counter hands the teller a note. Give me the money in the register and nobody gets hurt. He has his hand in his pocket and wiggles it. The teller feels that the man must be armed. Later he is arrested, and all he had in his pocket is a pen or some other object. He simulated the weapon. There as a time when this would get the charge reduced from armed robbery, to robbery. But Prosecutors argued that the victim believed him to be armed, and that was good enough. The legislatures and the courts weighed in and decided that belief of the perpetrator being armed was plenty thank you very much. Before that, if the cop said he saw a gun, there had better be a gun. On the chance the cop was wrong, many carried drop pieces. Guns hidden in an ankle holster to plant on the victim of their mistake. Sometimes they do still plant evidence, but it's not really needed anymore in regards to shooting.

Dirty Harry, I think it was the movie Sudden Impact, but it may have been the Dead Pool. Harry is walking out of the Restaurant with the reporter. Two guys stop him and ask if he's the cop Harry Callahan. One reaches into his jacket and Harry grabs one and quick draws his pistol (impossible with a shoulder holster) to point at man number two. The first says. "I was reaching for a pen, I just wanted your autograph".

That is symbolic of the next phase. The idea that if you didn't move first, the bad guy would get the drop on you. So it went from seeing a weapon, to seeing something that looked like it maybe could be a weapon, to moving as though you thought he might be going for a weapon. He reached for his belt is the common phrase uttered. I remember one shooting in California, where the police were chasing a man. He ran around the corner, they pursued him. He turned and reached into his jacket, they shot him full of holes. Nothing was found in his jacket except a comb. Witness's saw the man do this, not just the cops, so I believe he did that until I am given reason to doubt the official story.

The police were cleared, because he made a movement commonly associated with reaching for a weapon.

In the meantime, families, and women, were facing intruders. When I was a boy, it was generally accepted that if you had to shoot someone, as a civilian, you had to say those words you hate to hear. It was in fear of my life. It was a generally accepted legal defense. An intruder is in your home. You wake in the night to find him. Is he there to murder you? Rape your wife, daughter, self? Is he there to just burgle your belongings? You don't know. Jumping to conclusions you assume it's the worst. You pick up your handy shotgun, pistol, whatever. You shoot and kill the intruder, or just wound him. Perhaps you bash him with a Louisville Slugger. The point was that you could not be charged with a crime if you were acting in self defense. Not protecting your property. You couldn't shoot him if he was sneaking out the window with your VCR. (For younger readers let me explain what that is. An arcane DVD player that also acted like a Tivo that used large cassettes. Not to be confused with a Betamax, which used smaller cassettes.) or your Silverware. You could only act in Self Defense with deadly force.

I remember the debates this caused, arguments that vigilante's would lay a trail of those arcane VCR things to the house so otherwise innocent people would be lured into the home where they could be assassinated by the Charles Bronson wannabe.

It wasn't a single step. It was dozens of little steps. Many of which I haven't mentioned here. It was the game of inches. The game where each decision pushed the line another inch, surely another inch wouldn't hurt? I mean, if we allowed this, certainly common sense says we have to allow this next thing too, it's only another inch.

But much like the man at the table in the Monty Python sketch, the thin mint was just too much. Now we are in a situation, where the two generations of this progress is threatened. The Police and their supporters don't see it as needed reforms. They see it as risking their lives. I don't know if they argue that because they honestly believe it, or if they are afraid of being held accountable if they don't show whatever levels of restraint that the public wants to see in growing numbers.

I think we've already eaten the single wafer thin mint. I think we're exploding right now. I hope this helps bring into focus how we got here, and I hope that for those of us older folks we remember the many little steps we took to this disastrous place.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
2. Trayvon Martin wasn't self defense, and Eric Garner wasn't shot.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 01:25 PM
Jan 2015

Among shootings that are categorized as "self defense", obviously some are lies, are just plain murders.

You are right, these people are victims and we need to follow the rule of law and CAREFULLY write new laws, maybe, that hold shooters accountable when it really isn't self defense (I'm talking to you, Zimmerman).

But other folks who get shot, the ones who are home-invading or attempting rape, they are NOT victims and they have only a handful of rights.

I'm a bit disturbed that the two categories of people are ever mentioned in one breath.

Having said that, nobody who is in a legitimate position of fear should have to stop and think very long about, "Hmmm, I wonder if I will be able to firmly establish that they posed a real threat".

Let's be realistic here.

Bjorn Against

(12,041 posts)
4. Yes, people should have to stop and think about whether they can prove someone poses a threat
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 01:36 PM
Jan 2015

Making a split second decision out of fear is far too likely to result in a life being lost unnecessaily. The right to use deadly force is a right that needs to be extremely limited, if someone can't prove the person they killed was guilty of a serious crime against them then they don't have any real justification for taking another person's life.

hollysmom

(5,946 posts)
3. you mean the right to walk home on the street at night or
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 01:32 PM
Jan 2015

the right to be where they are standing not doing anything when attacked? I think they actually thought of it when they got the guy who shot the kids in the car

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
5. The courts do not "just take the shooter at his or her word"
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 03:36 PM
Jan 2015

In both the George Zimmerman trial and the Darren Wilson grand jury proceeding, the claim of self-defense was an issue and was the subject of testimony.

The problem is not with any legal rule, but with the way the rules are applied, especially in cases in which race is a factor.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
6. This is not an issue in places like the UK.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 04:12 PM
Jan 2015

The problem with guns is that when one of the key witnesses is dead, it makes it harder to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the shooter is guilty of a crime.

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