So who is a "real Christian" and who is a "real Muslim"?

[RandySF]

Who is a real "fill in the blank" anyway? When white supremacists blow up Federal buildings, everyone goes out of their way to say they are not true Christians. When Muslims commit murders, they're not "real Muslims" anyway. Yet in each each, the perpetrators clings to divine inspiration for their acts. How many people have to die before we stop running cover for religions whose ministers promote violence every Friday and Sunday?

[onecaliberal]

1. This is not about religion. It's about extremists.

[edhopper]

3. It's not about

the whole religion.
It IS about some members and their beliefs.
Religion should be included in the discussion.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

7. Religion is the facade under which some seek to bend others to their will.

If religion were the true variable then the absence of religion would equal the absence of the atrocities being ascribed to religion. As many atheist regimes are known for their atrocities, even if not directly in the name of atheism, it shows that what is really happening is oppression in the name of Power.

Ideology isn't the problem, Power is.

[uppityperson]

10. Thank you. eom

[onecaliberal]

18. Thank you for articulating the fact so

Succinctly and way better than I ever could have. Your comment is completely spot on.

[BrotherIvan]

24. ^^This!^^

Religion draws authoritarian leaders and followers. The leaders want control of people in mind, body and spirit--their every waking thought, to their last breath. He uses their longing and need for community to serve his own greed and twisted ends. The followers are the type that need to be told what to do. So when the leader wishes, he has a most willing and compliant soldier or martyr.

http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

[Skidmore]

4. It is also about religion because clergy on all three sides of the issues the

religious extremists have named as their rallying point either rush to give them cover or work to put people in power who give them cover. For all of the examples of Christian terrorism we have experienced here, you rarely, if ever, find a political or a clergy person step forward and denounce their actions in very strong language. Rather, we get mealy mouthed platitudes about preserving religious rights and being persecuted. In the meantime, people die. Muslim, Christian, and Jew. They die because of the insistence that grievances must be expressed in religious terms. Because God...

[Bluenorthwest]

12. These days everyone speaks against Westboro Baptist, but the fact of the matter is they harassed

literally hundreds of gay funerals and events over a period of years, in all 50 States without a single organized opposition to them by 'the good Christians' and without any leader of the faith community clearly speaking out against their actions. It was not until Westboro started going after Veterans presumed to be heterosexual that other Christians and Americans in general started standing up to them.
I asked many, many religious people and ministers why they did not object strongly to Phelps, why they left their neighbors to be attacked by their siblings in the faith without any defense. Again and again they'd say 'we don't condone his actions, but....the Bible does say gays are going to hell, so I can't really oppose God'.
We are in fact asked to 'respect' the Pope, who says God is at war with gay rights and that gay people are disordered. Many people on DU claim that he's a great guy. If he said the same thing about African Americans, Muslims, no one would defend him. But he attacks gay people, so DU shouts 'he should be President!!!!'

[m-lekktor]

8. yes, RELIGIOUS extremists. nt

[LostOne4Ever]

2. I like the Religious tolerance websites definition

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn3.htm

"Our original definition in the year 2000 was:

"We accept as Christian any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian. That is, they honestly believe themselves to be a follower of Yeshua of Nazareth (a.k.a. Jesus Christ)."

In 2011, changed to this definition:

"We accept as Christian any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian. That is, they honestly believe themselves to be attempting to follow the teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth (a.k.a. Jesus Christ) as they interpret those teachings to be."

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]I would give a similar definition for Muslims.

I accept as Muslim any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Muslim. That is, they honestly believe themselves to be attempting to follow the teachings of the Islamic Prophet Mohammed as they interpret those teachings to be.[/font]

[MineralMan]

5. I'm not competent to judge such things, so I accept the

designation a person gives him or herself. If a person says to me, "I am a Christian" or "I am a Muslim," then I will not argue that designation with them. They are professing their faith in some religion or other.

In all cases, I judge people by their behavior and their actions, not by what religion with which they claim affiliation. I don't judge others based on any individual's behavior or actions. I have known Christians who were absolutely evil persons, and I have known Christians who constantly exhibited the most loving behavior. I can say the same for Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and Sikhs I have known.

Claiming affiliation with a religion has little to do with how one behaves and acts in my experience. There appears to be no correlation whatsoever that can be used to characterize individuals.

People who perpetrate violence or other evils may be of any religion, or none at all. The same is true of people who behave kindly and generously toward others. A claim of religion has nothing to do with it, in my experience.

So, if a murderer or terrorist claims to be a Christian or Muslim, I will accept that. Religion is really meaningless to me. But, I won't judge others who claim the same affiliation, based on the actions of the murderer or terrorist. I judge individuals, not affiliations.

[bluesbassman]

11. Nice summation.

"By their fuit you will recognize them" is really the heart of the matter.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

6. are they committing the act in the name of their religion

is all it takes for me.

Abortion doc gunned down? Christian Terrorist
Attacking Jewish grocery? Muslim Terrorist
Killing blacks because they're black? White Supremacist Terrorist

sP

[Nye Bevan]

9. McVeigh never claimed any religious motivation for the OK bombing.

McVeigh claimed that the bombing was revenge for "what the U.S. government did at Waco and Ruby Ridge."[101] McVeigh visited Waco during the standoff. While there, he was interviewed by student reporter Michelle Rauch, a senior journalism major at SMU who was writing for the school paper. McVeigh expressed his objections over what was happening there.[89][102]

McVeigh frequently quoted and alluded to the novel The Turner Diaries; while rejecting the book's racism,[36][51] he claimed to appreciate its interest in firearms. Photocopies of pages sixty-one and sixty-two of The Turner Diaries were found in an envelope inside McVeigh's car. These pages depicted a fictitious mortar attack upon the U.S. Capitol in Washington.[103]

In a 1,200-word essay[104] dated March 1998, from the federal maximum-security prison at Florence, Colorado, McVeigh claimed that the terrorist bombing was "morally equivalent" to U.S. military actions against Iraq and other foreign lands. The handwritten essay, submitted to and published by the alternative national news magazine Media Bypass, was distributed worldwide by The Associated Press on May 29, 1998. This was written in the midst of the 1998 Iraq disarmament crisis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

So I'm really not sure where you get "claim divine inspiration for their acts" from.

[m-lekktor]

15. McVeigh told Gore Vidal in their correspondence he was agnostic.

I am sure many of McViegh,s associates during his time prior to the incident where Christian though, particularly Christian Identity.

[Runningdawg]

28. HE may not have stated religious motivation

but he was housed, trained, and funded by a Christian Militia in OK. Elohim City, their compound is still there.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. The OK City bomber did not in fact claim divine or religious inspiration.

He was not a religious nut, he was a political nut. Ideology yes, religion, not really. The Olympic bomber, abortion clinic attackers, the extremist Christians who firebombed the cinema in Paris in 88 did cite religious motivation. So there are plenty of examples, he's not one of them.

Forget about criminals, religious identity offered by anyone is of no relevance to me. People claim to be many things. It is their actions that define them. That's it.

[demigoddess]

14. a real christian or real muslim is a person who

goes to church, synagogue, or mosque and does not try to force anyone else to follow his religion. Who allows everyone else the same freedom of religion he want to have for himself.

[m-lekktor]

17. you don't get decide who is what.

just because they don't behave the way you think they should.

see post #2. it is anybody who believes and follows the teachings. just because they might behave badly you can't personally proclaim they aren't what they are. you and many others are trying to give religion a pass for bad things done in its name.

[demigoddess]

29. I'm looking at it from God's point of view

That is what He thinks a good Christian, Jew or Muslim would do. Follow their religion and let other people follow theirs. I know because God told me so on Saturday last. And He will give you a good talking to when you get to Heaven.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. OTOH. How many people are motivated by religion to NOT become terrorists or harm people?

I know a lot of Christians, quite few Muslims, quite a few Jews, and some Buddhists, who are so motivated.

I think far more people are motivated by flag waving patriotism to kill then there are by religion.

[Bluenorthwest]

22. So you know quite a few people who would be terrorists if not for their religion? Really?

I don't know anyone who would be a terrorist at all. How can you now a multiplicity of people who would be terrorists but instead, they are religious?

Nationalistic tendencies obviously motivate lots of bloodshed. But so does religion. And not just killing but bullying, oppression, justice meted out unfairly and of course the fact that for LGBT people, we spend our entire lives being subjected to nonstop hate speech from many diverse religious quarters. Every day I read some story about clergy attacking LGBT people. Occasionally a 'person of faith' will speak out against them, occasionally. Not often. In the religious world, they see Pope Francis as 'pro gay' but he says we are inherently disordered and our rights are Satan's idea. He's about as good as they get on that side. Of course if any cleric said what Francis says about us about Muslims or a racial minority that cleric would be despised on DU, but since he says it about gay people DU says he's wonderful, progressive and equality minded. Inherently disordered...is it ok if I say that about you, or some group of people I wish to denigrate or is it only ok for Francis and other religious purveyors of hate? You tell me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. I've known terrorists that are motivated by religion.

I've also know pacifists that are motivated by religion.

I don't like generalizations about any group. Whether they be Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Republicans, Democrats, Blacks, Whites, Straights, or Gays.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. I'm not speaking in generaliaztions. I'm talking about specifics.

If the things religious figures say about LGBT people were said about any other minority group, no one here would defend any of them or identify with them in any way. That's a fact. The people so furious about cartoons are never furious about the shit religious people say about gay people, and in fact some hate speaking religious figures are celebrated here. This indicates an enormous double standard and in fact, bigotry itself.

[phantom power]

19. I believe you are referring to the "no-true-Scotsman" fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Bluenorthwest]

20. I can give the answer for 'real Christians' that Jeus gave in the stories, he's pretty damn clear

He says that people who treated others well are his friends even if they don't know him at all, and that people who treated others poorly are not invited to his party even though they think they know him well and expect to be on the VIP Guest list.
So according to Jesus, many of his friends do not even know who Jesus is or was, and many of those who claim to be close to him are actually mistreating him on a daily basis.

I don't know if there is similar teaching in Islam. But that's the view from the Nazz as to how it all shakes out in the end. He welcomes the kind heretic and refuses the unkind believer.

[CJCRANE]

21. I think we need version numbers for religions.

"Hi, pleased to meet you. I'm a follower of Buddhism 7705.5 with the American Zen patch".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. We don't get to decide./NT

[DavidDvorkin]

26. Only the really nice ones

If they're nasty, or sometimes just not sufficiently nice, then the boundaries are redrawn to exclude them so that everyone can continue to say that the group in question is really, really nice.

Kilts and haggis may be involved.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. "Kilts and haggis may be involved."

A-yup!

[Avalux]

31. Why does it even matter?

As human beings, we are constantly judging and labeling others. It's time to look past those labels, and recognize the person by their deeds. People either act in ways that are destructive, or they act in ways that are creative, no matter what they call themselves, or what we call them.

It's really not much more complicated than that.