Anjem Choudary: "Why did France allow the tabloid to provoke Muslims?"

[FrodosPet]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/01/07/islam-allah-muslims-shariah-anjem-choudary-editorials-debates/21417461/

Anjem Choudary
10:52 a.m. EST January 8, 2015

Contrary to popular misconception, Islam does not mean peace but rather means submission to the commands of Allah alone. Therefore, Muslims do not believe in the concept of freedom of expression, as their speech and actions are determined by divine revelation and not based on people's desires.

Although Muslims may not agree about the idea of freedom of expression, even non-Muslims who espouse it say it comes with responsibilities. In an increasingly unstable and insecure world, the potential consequences of insulting the Messenger Muhammad are known to Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

Muslims consider the honor of the Prophet Muhammad to be dearer to them than that of their parents or even themselves. To defend it is considered to be an obligation upon them. The strict punishment if found guilty of this crime under sharia (Islamic law) is capital punishment implementable by an Islamic State. This is because the Messenger Muhammad said, "Whoever insults a Prophet kill him."

~ snip ~

It is time that the sanctity of a Prophet revered by up to one-quarter of the world's population was protected.

~ snip ~

No, this man does not speak for ALL Muslims. But make no mistake - he speaks for a much larger number than we want to believe.

[LanternWaste]

1. How many does he speak for, and what is the number we wish to believe?

"he speaks for a much larger number than we want to believe..."

How many does he speak for, and what is the number we wish to believe?

[HappyMe]

7. Good question.

I was wondering the same thing.

[FrodosPet]

30. Good news: There ARE British Muslims who oppose this vile man

https://www.facebook.com/BritishMuslimsAgainstAnjemChoudary

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/al-muhajiroun/

Today HOPE not hate launches a report into the Muslim extremist (and ‘media darling’) Anjem Choudary and his al-Muhajiroun network. Sixty pages long, the report, Gateway to Terror, is arguably the most detailed investigation into this Islamist extremist organisation, its structures and its terrorist connections.

Gateway to Terror reveals that at least 70 people who have been convicted of terrorism or terror-related offences, or who have actually participated in suicide attacks, have been linked to the group. We reveal that the man who narrated a recent 58-minute al-Shabaab video, threatening a number of moderate British Muslims, is from Tower Hamlets and has also been linked to the group (al-Shabaab is the militant Islamist group fighting for control of Somalia). We expose the growing connections between Choudary and the northern Iraqi Ansar al-Islam group, an affiliate of al-Qaeda, and name its British leader. We chart Choudary’s growing network of contacts across Europe and reveal that between 200-300 supporters from these groups have gone to fight in Syria.

This report nails the misguided view that we should tolerate Choudary's outlandish antics. Behind his media-grabbing and provocative stunts lies a group that is a gateway to terrorism, at home and abroad.

While Choudary might not have been directly involved in terror plots, he helped shape the mindset of many of those behind them. He indoctrinated them and through his networks linked them up to terror groups and supporters across the world. Many of those convicted of terrorism were active supporters of his group at the time of their arrest. Habib Ahmed, who was convicted of being a member of al-Qaeda, was their Manchester branch organiser. Mohammed Chowdhury, the ringleader of the 2010 Christmas bomb plot, was filmed helping set up a Skype interview between Anjem Choudary and Omar Bakri (al-Muhajiroun’s founder, originally a member of radical sect Hiz ut-Tahrir) only three weeks before his arrest.

~ snip ~

[HappyMe]

33. I had no doubt that there are

British Muslims that oppose this idiot, as LeftishBrit has pointed out.

[FrodosPet]

37. And thank goodness for that

But let's not forget he has a direct following in the thousands. As I pointed out downstream, that is still a dangerous number.

[HappyMe]

41. Yes, he does have followers

as do ISIS, Al Qaeda and many other scary terrorist groups.

[FrodosPet]

18. Can you hook me up with a round trip plane ticket and some cash?

If you like, I can go to the U.K. and find out within 5% in one month.

I'll need some travel money. Car rental would be best.

Lodging in London is pretty expensive, as are meals. So $400 per diem for expenses.

It would be smart during field work to have a bodyguard. Add $300 a day for that.

Hook me up with $25,000 and I will give you a pretty solid answer within a month. Otherwise, just based on online research we have to stick with the given answer.

[LanternWaste]

45. I think you're confusing 'research' and 'looking for only answers that validate my bias.'

I think you're confusing 'research' and 'looking for only answers that validate my bias.'

[FrodosPet]

47. I thought I was looking for a way to get paid to visit the British Isles :-)

If you have the money, tell me the criteria that would make it objective.

[niyad]

2. my deity has a sense of humour. too bad about his.

[Dreamer Tatum]

3. But France isn't an Islamic state and even if it was

I'm guessing it wouldn't permit its citizens to go around playing judge, jury, and executioner.

So maybe Choudary should go move to Gofuckyourselfstan.

[TwilightGardener]

4. Lunatics constantly trying to scare us into respecting them.

[WinkyDink]

11. I think they'd be content with fearing.

[TwilightGardener]

25. You are right.

[backscatter712]

5. More stupidity from those who think religion should get a pass from criticism and satire.

It's straight from the school of "She deserved to be raped because she dressed provocatively."

What a steaming crock of shit.

[merrily]

6. This is on the killers, period, not on Islam and not on France or Charlie.

I get offended sometimes. Killing someone in retaliation for that never occurred to me.

[moondust]

8. Mixed up priorities.

Muslims consider the honor of the Prophet Muhammad to be dearer to them than that of their parents or even themselves.

Human rights and civil liberties trump your imaginary belief system whatever that may be.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. "Human rights and civil liberties trump your imaginary belief system"

While I agree he says such things do not matter.

[WinkyDink]

9. It is not on the alleged "provoker"; it is on those who indulge themselves by feeling "provoked."

A mature adult is supposed to control his reactions; indeed, it is a life lesson most Americans of a certain age learned through the adage abut "sticks and stones."

To hint, as Jay Carney did a while back, that ANY fault lies with "not being respectful" or some such twaddle, BELIES the usual claim to support Freedom of speech and of the Press.

Free speech and a free press, unless dealing with slander or libel, NEED NEVER BE "CAUTIOUS" BASED ON HOW SOMEONE MIGHT REACT.

And to imply otherwise is to NOT UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF "FREE" OR "DEMOCRACY."

[Coventina]

10. Wow, just.....wow..... PLEASE tell me this guy does not speak for more than .0001% of Muslims.

Please!!!

Because, I ain't protecting no sanctity of anyone's "Prophet".

Period.

[WinkyDink]

14. Guess again.

[MohRokTah]

20. Assholes like Donohue and Choudary make me want to be even more mocking of their prophets,...

priests, and other insundry assholes put upon a pedestal.

[Bluenorthwest]

60. We now have Donohue being cited on DU as if he was sane

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026057143

[LeftishBrit]

27. He doesn't speak for most Muslims; he is an idiot who lives in Britain but hates Britain

He just causes trouble for everyone, including most British Muslims. I wish he'd just leave.

When Phelps was alive, I used to suggest that he and Choudary should be tossed together onto a desert island, where they could either murder each other, or realize how much they had in common, and in either case stop bothering other people.

Here is HopeNotHate on the subject of Choudary and his stupid (but small) hate-group.

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/hate-groups/am/

[Coventina]

31. Is he a British citizen?

Just curious, because if he isn't....maybe he should be shown the door?

I mean, if he bluntly hates the country that is hosting him, I don't see why Britain should continue to host him.

[LeftishBrit]

32. Yes, he was born here

[Coventina]

36. Bummer. I guess you're stuck with him, then.

My sympathies.....

[C_U_L8R]

12. Choudary thinks he speaks for god

and deserves all the mockery he gets.
What a hateful clown.

[Mass]

13. Then he agrees with Donohue who thinks they should not have published

cartoons ridiculing the Pope and the Catholic Church.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

19. But I don't see Donohue asking to change

our rights to free speech.

That's a pretty big difference, even if the man is nuts.

[WinkyDink]

26. Who said Right-Wing Catholics are any standard for a democracy?

[Mass]

35. Nobody. At least not me.

But the OP seems to think that the blogger he links represents most Muslims.

[FrodosPet]

40. No I do not.

His direct followers are only in the thousands.

That is still a dangerous number of people armed with a violent and oppressive ideology.

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/al-muhajiroun/

[LanternWaste]

46. Numerically, almost equal to the Klan.

Numerically, almost equal to the Klan.

[WinkyDink]

65. But it is a tenet of Islam not to defame, or even portray, Muhammed.

[MohRokTah]

15. As far as I'm concerned, he's almost as bad as the terrorists.

If he doesn't like freedom, he should move to an Islamic state.

[Coventina]

21. He is as bad. He's standing shoulder to shoulder with them, and worse,

indicating that this is the attitude of ALL MUSLIMS!!

I refuse to believe that, but find it scary that HE believes it!!!!

[LeftishBrit]

24. As a Brit, I only wish he would move!

[Nye Bevan]

16. So I guess if Mormons start murdering and bombing people who insult Joseph Smith,

or make fun of their special underwear, they will be rewarded with hand-wringing newspaper editorials about how governments should ban insults to Mormonism.

[RationalMan]

17. I sincerely must question the validity of any religion

that cannot subject itself to challenge, criticism and satire.

If Allah so weak he/she cannot tolerate to have human beings who were created in Allah's image and who have the ability to think critically (unlike his/her other creatures) use that capacity to question, analyze and conclude? Was the prophet such a control freak he couldn't tolerate his followers to ask questions?

As a Christian we know that for nearly 1900 CE, the Christian churches were as bad as today's fundamentalist Muslims. Just look at the Inquisition of the Salem Witch trials as evidence. That all the while that in the Gospels, Jesus' disciples constantly asked him questions.

When there are legitimate challenges to traditions in my faith are raised such as the creation story, I look at the criticism in the form of the theory of evolution and the Big Bang and I can rationalize those against my faith. I no longer believe in the book of Genesis as literal fact but rather as allegory that was used to explain fundamental questions to persons who lived at a time before we had developed the scientific method and could look objectively at the world around us.

It has always struck me that those that are in the greatest need to control others are in fact short on self-confidence. It is the same in almost all fundamentalist communities or, in the Republican party of today. You must either think like us or you are the enemy.

[WinkyDink]

29. The 21st century and Western democracy hardly compare to 1st C. Judea., nor even to Medieval Europe.

These are killers in the midst of modernity, TO KILL MODERNITY. To SLAUGHTER (See: ISIS) non-Muslims who wish to live in the 21st Century. these killers want two things, and two things only: The Quran and weapons.

They weren't seeking to convert; they were seeking to kill.

[RationalMan]

44. And where do you think the Quran requirement came from?

They adhere to a tradition in some Islamic communities that the "infidel" (anyone who is not a practicing Muslim) is evil and must die. Or they use that as a pretext to go out and kill. Weapons are simply their tool of choice to inflict the greatest amount of harm on the most possible number of persons.

Make no mistake, I see many of these so-called Muslim extremists as having nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with self-importance. I seriously doubt that Osama bin Laden's driving force had anything to do with Islam. He hijacked Islam as a way to gain fame. He used the American forces in Saudi during Gulf War I as pretext to set his sights on the U.S. But I think that was all a ploy. I think he just fancied himself being bigger than himself and you notice he never went on any suicide missions. He sent other vulnerable, weak people to do his bidding. He hid for over a decade, scared of his own shadow.

I have some friends in a European country who partied with OBL. He drank alcohol, danced at the discos and was promiscuous. I guess he could have gotten him some religion but I doubt it.

[Codeine]

22. Oh fuck him and his silly-ass superstitions.

He can eat a bag of dicks.

Unless he likes dicks. If so, no dicks for him.

[hatrack]

69. Epicurus nailed it more than 2,000 years ago . . . .

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[LeftishBrit]

23. Choudary is a sort of British Muslim Fred Phelps

He certainly does not speak for the majority of British Muslims: the Muslim Council of Britain condemned the attacks, for example.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/paris-murders-jan-08-15/

American Muslims also condemned them:

http://www.aa.com.tr/en/news/446740--american-muslims-condemn-paris-attack-on-charlie-hebdo

Nor were such condemnations restricted to the West. The Arab League also issued a condemnation:

http://www.care2.com/news/member/312733850/3837161


I daresay that Al Quaeda and Isis support the attack, as would loonytunes Britain-hating Choudary - but they are not representative of Muslims as a whole.

By the way, at least one of the victims of the outrage, a French policeman, was a Muslim.

[FrodosPet]

34. He does not need to speak for the majority

Alas, the Muslims he DOES speak for, while merely in the thousands as opposed to millions, is still dangerous.

[nil desperandum]

28. Fairy tales

when one believes in fairy tales and those fairy tales are threatened we've seen the results.

The honor of the prophet? What honor? The honor associated with killing rape victims for premarital sex? The honor associated with a legal system that refused to nullify a marriage between a 56 year old and an 8 year old? If that is what is considered honor, I would much prefer to be dishonorable....

Magical sky men and their followers have been a source of constant misery throughout the history of mankind, religious mechanisms of control are designed to control the populace through fear. Fear of everlasting damnation, or in this case fear of deadly retaliation for a cartoon.

It's about time humans stop worshipping invisible mystery men in the sky and start learning to live with those who look, act, and speak differently without resorting to killing them for those differences in the name of some god or other.

[WinkyDink]

38. Every damn time some Islamic killer wreaks his havoc, people pipe up about ALL religions. HOGWASH.

And I'm being polite.

[HappyMe]

43. Thank you.

What I find a bit funny is how preachy some of them sound. You aren't supposed to believe in an invisible sky whatever, and yet you are supposed to listen to an invisible internet person. The invisible internet person will hound you just as much as any fire and brimstone preacher would.

[Recursion]

52. Hindus still more-or-less regularly kill innocent muslims where I live

Last edited Fri Jan 9, 2015, 01:32 AM - Edit history (1)

And Buddhists do so a few hundred miles south and east of me. Christians (not to mention Muslims) do so on the other side of the Arabian sea.

I get your point, seriously, but from a perspective outside of Europe and the Americas, there really is a "Pox on all their houses" that is deserved.

[riderinthestorm]

54. + 1000 nt

[Bonx]

59. "Don't waste your mind on nursery rhymes...

Or fairy tales of blood and wine
It's turtles all the way down the line
So to each their own til' we go home
To other realms our souls must roam
To and through the myth that we all call space and time"
- Sturgill Simpson

[Lizzie Poppet]

39. I'll gladly accord a murderous child molester all the "honor" he deserves.

That is to say, fuck-all. The world would be a far better place had Muhammad never been born.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. I'm surprised USA Today gives space to a man on bail after arrest for encouraging terrorism

Anjem Choudary was arrested on terror charges along with six others at the end of September.

The men are alleged to have been members of an organisation banned under the Terrorism Act and are said to have encouraged terrorism.
...
The bail condition on not taking part in the stalls was not renewed by Mr Riddle but other restrictions on the suspects – including a ban on foreign travel and on associating with each other – will remain in force.

The court heard 10 police officers are sifting through material seized in a series of raids.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11246855/Anjem-Choudary-bail-restrictions-relaxed-by-judge.html

[B2G]

49. Why did USA Today even give him the mic? nt

[CJCRANE]

50. He not only speaks for them, he inspires them.

From what I can tell, he is the main English language mouthpiece for the Caliphate cause. He leads a charmed life, living on welfare payments and under police protection. He has a small entourage of about fifty followers in the UK, some of whom went on to become terrorists. His overseas following on social media is much bigger and they admire him because they are surprised that he can get away with what he says, especially with the strict hate speech laws in the UK.

(About two years ago, I stumbled onto a pro-Caliphate group on Facebook and followed it for a few months and gleaned a few insights into their mentality).

[Recursion]

51. I've weighed this statement very carefully, but I stand by it:

Anjem Choudary can go fuck himself.

[Phlem]

55. +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

yep

[Phlem]

53. "Whoever insults a Prophet kill him."

How fucking convenient.

[TBF]

56. Guess what - if YOU kill someone

YOU are responsible. Period. Stop blaming the victims.

[Rex]

57. FUCK ANYONE that has to commit violence over criticism!

What an incredibly insecure and immature group these fanatics are! Free speech will never die, you can kill the people but not the written word.

If people in any organized religion cannot accept criticism, then they must believe they are part of a cult. Cult leaders are fanatics and very dangerous like the Shithead in the article. Shithead would rather see a world where there is NO free speech.

FUCK THAT.

[Lint Head]

58. And millions can be damn dead wrong.

We in this country have maytrs throughout history.who died for freedom of the press and expression. These SOB's are spitting on their graves. They're deaths are more precious than the sanctity of any prophet. Prophets blab and predict. The bearers of freedom 'do something to protect that freedom even to the action of dying to protect it. The murderers who hate that expression a are dying for a god of death

[pansypoo53219]

61. so he is the jerry fall well/pat robertson of islam.

[FrodosPet]

63. No, he's not.

It's OK to criticize Falwell, Robertson, etc.

But if you criticize a radical Islamic cleric, you are an Islamophobe who is accusing ALL of the world's Muslims of supporting terrorism.

You can put in every disclaimer humanly possible into your statement. But you will still be accused of insulting ALL Muslims.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

66. No, he's far less influential.

British Muslims are, on average, less illiberal than Muslims in Muslim-majority countries; Choudary's views are mainstream in much of the Islamic world but very fringe here, and I don't think he has much international reputation (although I may be wrong; my finger is not exactly on the far-right overseas Muslim pulse).

I suspect a better analogy would be with a far-right Christian preacher in a country where the Christian far right was much less influential.

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. No, more like the Fred Phelps or Terry Jones

(The Koran burner, not the British comedian, of course). Small following, likes to incite hatred. He'd like to be Louis Farrakhan, but he's smaller than that.

[Dr. Strange]

62. As a reminder...

this is the same Anjem "Andy" Choudary who liked to party in college.

[JI7]

64. this is why thinks like torture do not get the same

Level of outrage and anger.

[PeaceNikki]

68. Bill Donohue of the Catholic League blames the victims, too.

Three Muslim men didn't like the way the authors, journalists, and cartoonists thought, so they murdered them. Twelve lives ended. Families shattered. Children parentless. And Bill Donohue of the Catholic League says, "Muslims are right to be angry." Donohue sided with the murderers, condemning only their method but saying that we should not "tolerate the kind of intolerance that provoked this violent reaction" and that it was "too bad" Charlie's editor "didn't understand the role he played in his" own death. Isn't it just like religion to blame the victim?

We saw this 10 years ago when the Danish papers published benign—bland might be a better word—cartoons about Islam's pedophiliac founder. As Hitchens was fond of pointing out, though Islamic mobs were beating, burning, "and issuing death threats against civilians," the archbishop of Canterbury and the pope condemned the cartoons, not the overreaction.

We saw this 25 years ago when the Ayatollah Khomeini—to borrow from Hitchens again—"publicly offered money, in his own name, to suborn the murder of a novelist who was a citizen of another country." Once again, the Vatican and the archbishop of Canterbury condemned the speaker, Salman Rushdie, not the violent criminals.

History offers countless instances of religion enforcing its inane orthodoxy with violence.

- See more at: http://ffrf.org/news/blog/item/22171-charlie-hebdo-bill-donahue-and-the-freedom-of-thought#.dpuf