Hitchens asked if what Islam seeks is respect or pre-emptive censorship of free speech.

[RadiationTherapy]

I agree with Hitchens on this point. If islam as a group wants to participate in nations with constitutionally protected free-expression, I think they will have to speak out against extremist behavior as well as reform their fundamental texts and conventions to accommodate the necessity of mockery and satire that comes with free-speech. Specifically, the precept against portraying Mohammed must be preached against and eventually eliminated. Otherwise, I am concerned there is going to be a cultural conflict. There are, of course, other areas of reformation I believe islam should address, but I am trying to stay pertinent to the Paris event today.

Apologies for the title. I don't like the implication of "schooling" people, but I could not find the clip under a different title. (duration: 9 minutes)

[el_bryanto]

1. One comment - moderate Islamic leaders do regularly condemn terrorist and extremist acts

The Media generally doesn't have that much interest in promoting those stories. I don't know specifically if moderate French Muslims have spoken out against this sort of thing (or this specific action) but I wouldn't be surprised if they have.

Bryant

[RadiationTherapy]

7. At this point, to me, that is inadequate. The texts and interpretations must be reformed.

Furthermore, beliefs probably need to be encouraged to be more private. In other words, shaking one's head and condemning victimless free-expression of satire privately. For the more audacious, muslims could march with signs depicting Muhammed and rationalizations about why the act being forbidden is silly and victimless.

[JaneyVee]

2. Imam of Paris mosque already condemned attacks.

"I am extremely angry. These are criminals, barbarians. They have sold their soul to hell. This is not freedom. This is not Islam and I hope the french will come out united at the end of this," said Hassen Chalghoumi, imam of the Drancy mosque in Paris's Seine-Saint-Denis northern suburb.

[RadiationTherapy]

8. It would be great if he granted permission to depict muhammed.

[Recursion]

3. There's a different mindset. My friends from the ME literally just don't "get" that a movie doesn't

need approval from the government to get made in the US. It literally never occurred to them that Hollywood operated that way. (Even in India, Bollywood movies have to be proactively cleared by government censors to avoid offending people.) So, they see a movie or whatever come out of the US or Europe and assume that that is the message the governments are trying to convey.

[RadiationTherapy]

9. That is very fascinating to me. I study media and communication and hadn't heard of this.

Thanks for sharing.

[tritsofme]

4. Reminds of a compelling anecdote from Sam Harris earlier this year:

At one point, Kristof reiterated the claim that Maher and I had failed to acknowledge the existence of all the good Muslims who condemn ISIS, citing the popular hashtag #NotInOurName. In response, I said: “Yes, I agree that all condemnation of ISIS is good. But what do you think would happen if we had burned a copy of the Koran on tonight’s show? There would be riots in scores of countries. Embassies would fall. In response to our mistreating a book, millions of Muslims would take to the streets, and we would spend the rest of our lives fending off credible threats of murder. But when ISIS crucifies people, buries children alive, and rapes and tortures women by the thousands—all in the name of Islam—the response is a few small demonstrations in Europe and a hashtag.”

[jberryhill]

17. ISIS has killed more Muslims than non-Muslims

[DetlefK]

5. All religions have people who get testy at even a hint of criticism.

A month ago, I asked a question about the devil in the Religion-subforum here on DU. Some members (a small and loud minority) accused me of using my question as a pretext to talk bad about God. They calmed down once they were convinced that I really had a question about the devil.



For a religion, it's not only important to be correct: The whole world has to fall apart if you strife from it.

Creationists aren't pissed about evolution because it somehow attacks God. They are pissed because it doesn't mention God.

In a religion there are some things you just have to believe, some things that stem from a primordial truth and that you are NEVER EVER to doubt. Putting those things into question, doubting them, debating them, is equal to an attack on the religion itself.

[get the red out]

6. Pissed vs Murder

I see one as more extreme than the other.

[RadiationTherapy]

10. One either demands pre-emptive censorship on this topic or one does not.

I , personally, do not.

[Nye Bevan]

11. Remember the art display "Piss Christ" where a crucifix was immersed in urine?

No murders. No bombs. No fatwas.

Now imagine if someone created a "Piss Muhammed" and displayed it in a museum.

[Coventina]

13. Just a point of clarification: The artwork was a photo of the crucifix in urine.

The photo does not show the container - all you see is a crucifix bathed in a golden light - it's even not perfectly clear that it's submerged in a liquid. On its formal elements alone, it's quite a beautiful photograph. It's how those effects were achieved that caused the photo to be controversial.

I completely agree with the content and meaning of your post. I just wanted to make sure that if people were not familiar with "Piss Christ" that they weren't imagining seeing a jar with a crucifix in it.

[DetlefK]

14. 500 years ago, Europe was a charnel-house of religious wars.

Protestants vs. Catholics.

Nowadays muslims lie about their denomination when moving to a new city, for fear of being killed by the local muslim community. (Not kidding.)

I find it interesting that Islam was founded about 500 years after Christianity and is going through the same phase that Christianity had about 500 years ago.

[on point]

19. You have it correct. Belief systems go through a life cycle

Approximately 1200 years after founding of Christian myth there was murder, torture of dissidents during the inquisition. Many wars between various sects of Christian myths. Took the enlightenment and rationality to remove religion from public to private space.

Now approximately 1200 years after founding of Islam myth, we have their equivalent of the inquisition under way. One would have hoped they would have leaped over this and adopted the enlightenment, but they may have to discover this again to find peace.

Eventually one hopes we can move beyond sickness known as religion.

[MohRokTah]

12. Sure complain about it. That's free expression.

Christians took big offense at Piss Christ. Lots of complaining over that piece of art.

Nobody got killed over it.

[chrisa]

15. I don't care what any religion is offended by, and nobody else should either.

The commonality among world religions today (well, the most common ones, that is) is their obsession with forcing their will and beliefs on others. Don't draw or show Muhammad. Don't promote evolution. Etc. Etc.

Anyone who says, "Maybe that newspaper shouldn't have published that satire" is an outright fool. This doesn't stop at satire. Fundamentalism is a cancer that invades, corrupts, and destroys everything it touches.

[jberryhill]

16. Is this what you really mean to say?

"I think they will have to speak out against extremist behavior as well as reform their fundamental texts..."

So, in order to preserve freedom of speech, a group of people must be compelled to say certain things, and compelled not to say other things?

[RadiationTherapy]

18. I obviously said nothing about compelling anyone to reform their religion. That seems impossible.

I am saying islam will need a reformation of their texts and interpretations or there will be a cultural conflict between free expression and attempts by the religious to punish those who mock and satirize them.

[The2ndWheel]

21. Will be?

More like has been, is, and will be.

And I don't know if religion needs to be singled out in this regard. It's not special. Any organized effort wants more people to follow whatever it is that it does. All organizations want to be a monopoly. They can't function otherwise. Government, corporate, religious, tribal, whatever. Or at the very least, they come into conflict with other organized efforts.

That'll only stop once there is only one way of everything for everyone.

[RadiationTherapy]

22. I think religion matters; its premise being instructions from the perfect creator of the universe.

(for monotheisms anyways). Many presume their texts have an inherent sense of infallibility.

[CJCRANE]

20. There has been a 500% increase in terrorism in this century.

I have to wonder if that has anything to do with deposing Saddam and Gadaffi and trying to depose Assad?

We seem to go around the world creating the conditions for fundie Islam to multiply.

We just need to cut the purse strings and stop supporting this form of Islam.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. They're within their rights to say "it's insulting to portray Mohammed"

and if they want, they could organise boycotts among themselves, or try to persuade others to boycott. What they should not do is expect legal support for a religious prohibition, or try to use it to justify any destructive or violent action.