Silence Makes White People Racist

[sheshe2]

Everything old is new again.

Past Present and Future

When I reflect on this past week, I realize that it’s been a vicious cycle of grief, frustration, anger, and numbness. My grief — the collective grief of the black community — is because an innocent black child was stolen from this earth. However, beyond that, our grief is because the outcome of the verdict is proof that black lives are not of value to this country nor its justice system, something we’ve known to be true for many, many years now.

snip

In my experience this past week, the haunting silence came from people that I expected more from: white folks who are frequently outspoken about injustice in both their private and public life, and especially those who were exceptionally vocal during DOMA’s repeal. Most of the responses that I witnessed and heard regarding the verdict came only when the silence was questioned or named as white privilege and supremacy. Very, very rarely were the responses remorseful–or even thoughtful. They came in the form of verbal attacks and explicit defensiveness, instead of compassion, personal assessment, and seeking to understand the overarching narrative of anti-blackness in this country. Ultimately, avoiding the issue all together took greater precedent over accountability.

On a national scale, responses from well-known, predominantly white liberal and progressive organizations were minimal at best. While the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) signed onto a letter led by the National Black Justice Coalition and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force calling for justice for Trayvon Martin, they did not release any formal press release or statement regarding the verdict. The organization People for the American Way and Center for American Progress both neglected to release any statement as well. However, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) did manage to speak and released a statement on July 15th opening with “We have great faith in America’s jury system and do not question the verdict in the Zimmerman case.” It is no surprise that according to the The Washington Post/ABC News poll, nearly 1 in 3 white Democrats approve of the Zimmerman verdict.

The truth is many white liberals in this country have come to believe a lie. A lie that says just because they are “liberal” or can quote W.E.B. DuBois or have one friend who’s black it means they are no longer racist, and a lie that says that selective and partial justice is an option. Racism–either by silence or with words–is always evil. Far too many white liberals are racist by silence. It’s impossible to be committed to working towards the self-determination and liberation of black people if one is silent in the face of injustice. Silence isn’t passive; it’s an active choice. It is a choice that is deadly and that speaks volumes. Silence is what kills black boys that look like Trayvon Martin.

snip

If white liberals choose to not accept the invitation, then they must know that their silence will speak for them. To pass up on this invitation, to live cowardly, is to say something shameful about the very things they claim to be compelled by. It is to say that whiteness and white privilege should be preserved and protected at all costs, even at the cost of another person’s humanity.

http://www.xojane.com/issues/silence-makes-white-people-racist

[dumbcat]

1. I really don't know what to say

to that. Or if I did, would I be allowed to say it? :: confused ::

[Vattel]

2. Some people just can't recognize that it needn't be racist to judge that

the prosecution in the Zimmerman case did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman committed murder. In fact that judgment is true. But even if I am wrong about that, everyone ought to be able to see that there is no evidence that racism is the correct explanation of why many believe that Zimmerman's acquittal was warranted.

[bravenak]

3. It is racism.

They portrayed that young man as a violent thug in the media and in the court room in a way they never would have been able to do with a blond haired, blue eyed kid walking through a nice community near where his parents lived and the SHOOTER had been a black man who followed him on a dark rainy night and chased and gunned him down. Never!

Lie to yourself.

[handmade34]

6. It is racism

...

[Vattel]

10. Bottom line: You don't know whether Martin attacked Zimmerman.

I hope you don't lie to yourself about that.

[bravenak]

15. Bottom line.

Martin lived in that neighborhood part time with his father. Zimmerman was the aggressor. He though that boy was a robber and treated him as such. It is racism that you are defending. And it is disgusting and you should be ashamed.

[Vattel]

22. You should be ashamed for your lack of critical thinking.

[bravenak]

28. I own critical thinking. That's why i'm nice and friendly.

And not racist. It's great!

[Vattel]

42. Yes, unfairly accusing me of disgusting behavior that I should be ashamed of is nice and friendly.

I own nice and friendly and I am also capable of being objective about the Zimmerman case. It's great! (Sorry, I don't do smiley faces)

[bravenak]

43. I accused you of nothing.

Why are you making things up? Nice critical thinking there, bub!

Ahh, objectivity! Funny how it only benefits certain people, but not black people.

[Vattel]

45. You said, "It is racism that you are defending. And it is disgusting and you should be ashamed."

So who is making things up?

[bravenak]

47. It is racism you are defending.

That ms not an accusation. That is a fact.

[Vattel]

52. Lol, okay. So what I was making up, according to you,

is that you accused me of something instead of just stating a fact. Got it.

[bravenak]

53. Exactly.

[Scootaloo]

140. You're carrying water for an open racist who stalked and murdered a young man

You should be ashamed of such behavior, but you're not. This only leads to a few possible conclusions.

[Vattel]

212. At least unlike you I don't pretend to know things that I don't know.

[Kalidurga]

201. So should you

and for not at least acknowledging that even if Zimmerman himself didn't attack Martin because of racism. That the media circus was racist in the way they portrayed Martin.

[Vattel]

211. I do acknowledge that.

[msanthrope]

223. You should be ashamed---murder one was clearly called for, and should have been charged.

Zimmy was lying in wait, stalking black men.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002613889


The systemic racism of the prosecutor's office failed to prosecute what was a capital case.

[Feral Child]

303. *You* should be ashamed

for that burden you're carrying. People are just people, Vattel.

I have green eyes. Does that really say anything about me?

Your comments on the Martin murder aren't examples of critical thinking, they're reflections of a person that feels inadequate and needs to hurt others to cover up their own pain.

It won't help, Vattel. It's a nasty cycle that feeds itself. Everytime you lash out, it just bounces back at you.

[840high]

124. You weren't there. Yet

you sound so sure.

[bravenak]

125. Thank you for your support.

[Vattel]

210. The only thing I am sure of is that I don't know whether Martin attacked Zimmerman.

And that's because I wasn't there.

[840high]

224. No argument from me.

[cwydro]

240. I try to look at each of this awful cases without judgment

until I hear all the facts.

Zimmerman is a racist and a stupid cop wannabe. Thank god he never became a cop.

No doubt there'd be more blood on his hands.

[bravenak]

245. He is still pretending to be a cop.

He started 'guarding' a local,business and had to be asked to NOT guard the business by the owner. He was not hired for the position. He's a delusional man with a firearm.

I see the system in action while living black. The system is corrupt and was designed to be that way. Hell, we couldn't even testify against a white person in America until after the civil war, free or not.
I recently sat in a courtroom and watched a judge hand out higher bail amounts to colored people and called one guy a terrorist. He sold some dope. The guy next to him did not get called a terrorist (he's white), even though he shot his girlfriend and tried to shoot more people. (In this case the white guys bail was higher, but the crimes were very different). I wanted to see the court system in action. It is not a justice system. It is a legal system.


I had a friend who was in his truck in the grocery store parking lot. Shot by a white dude who was aiming at somebody else. He killed my friend and shot another guy. He got probation. Probation. Shot two people, killed one, and gets probation? He told the court he was scared of my friend. They gave him a sweet deal for being scared of the black man. I have another friend, black of course, doing 11-15 years for selling drugs.
So, probation for the white murderer (who killed a black man), prison for the black drug dealer. I can find links if you want.

[cwydro]

250. Back in 2001

I was on a jury here in Charlotte.

The defendant was black. He was accused of robbing a hotel. The woman who accused him was white and his former lover.

He was accused of armed robbery. He admitted to robbing the place, but said she helped. He said he never had a gun. No gun was found.

We were not given the choice of just robbery. The charge was ARMED robbery.

Most of the jury were southern men. The rest of us were southern women. The most outrageous asshole was going to vote guilty from the get go. The other men agreed. We women held out. Eventually they screamed and harangued until they convinced all but me and the oldest woman there. It was a horrible experience. They were obviously racist and did not care about the facts.

I continued to point out that there was NO GUN found. Therefore, that leaves a REASONABLE doubt. They didn't care.

We were a hung jury. Judge was furious. sent us back again and again. The old lady and I never changed our position.

The jury was hung and so the defendant walked. I hated that experience in every way, but it showed me prejudice up close and personal in a way I'd never seen. And it was pure ugly.

[bravenak]

251. Wow! That must have been hard to deal with.

I have heard of jurors being bullied like that before. We need to fix our system. It cannot go on like this. I do not want my kids and grandkids (when I have some) to live in fear like we do. It's psychologically damaging to feel guilty just for looking different. Many blacks have identity issues and self loathing, try to buy lightening creams and stuff. Sad.

[cwydro]

254. I wish I could do it agan.

I would report that guy. He broke all kinds of rules. Driving out to the scene. Looking it up on the internet.

All I wanted was to get out of jury duty. I should have reported him.

I never thought I would be chosen. One of the questions in the voir dire was if we would believe what a police officer said was the truth.

I said no. I still got chosen.

[bravenak]

259. If it ever happens again, you probably will report.

Sometimes in the heat of the moment we let things fly. In hindsight we beat our selves up. At least he didn't break you. That matters alot. And that guy wasn't on the next jury, so that's good. I cannot believe he drove to the site on his own. He had an agenda.

[dawg]

262. Do you realize ...

that you are a hero? (The old lady, too.)

[cwydro]

265. That's sweet.

But I should have reported the jerk to the judge. So I gotta disagree.

The old lady truly WAS a hero. I think they knew they weren't getting anywhere with me, so they were relentless with her.

She was a lovely, dignified old southern lady (white), and she literally just looked down her nose at him.

[Bjorn Against]

16. Trayvon Martin had the right to self defense

Zimmerman was following Martin, not the other way around.

[Vattel]

17. Apparently you know nothing about the self-defense justification in the law.

One cannot justify self-defense merely on the grounds that you are being followed.

[Bjorn Against]

26. So what evidence do you have to prove Trayvon guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

[Flatulo]

71. Trayvon wasn't on trial. Zimmerman was. There was

only the need to show reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did *not* act in self-defense, not that he did.

Under SYG, all Zimmerman had to show was that there was a reasonable fear for his life.

I know its fucked up, but that's SYG. It's a travesty that you can essentially go pick a fight, and then shoot the other fella if you start losing.

[Bjorn Against]

74. And the fact that a person can take away another's right to a fair trial is a grave injustice

In a just system the shooter would actually have to prove that the person they shot was guilty. The concept of innocent until proven guilty needs to apply to everyone, there is no reason that a gunner should have more rights than a judge and jury.

[tosh]

91. THIS!!

Why is this FACT so elusive to some people??

[branford]

156. With all due respect, you have no understanding of the concept of self-defense,

due process and even the presumption of innocence as it is understood in any of the 50 states and the federal system. Do you also realize that these constitutional protections are the same regardless of the presence or involvement of a firearm?

Zimmerman was actually charged with murder. He, as are all criminal defendants, presumed innocent. His defense theory was standard self-defense. He claimed that while he was breaking no law that he was attacked, pinned-down and seriously assaulted. If so, even in less permissive jurisdictions like NY that require elements like retreat if able, the same evidence and basic theories would have been presented by both the prosecution and defense with similar burdens of proof as Florida. Given that even the prosecution witnesses testified that Zimmerman was below Martin on the ground in their altercation, and this was supported by forensic evidence, the jury verdict was entirely unsurprising. The SYG and related arguments are red herrings, with the greatest evidence of such the absence of a federal criminal civil rights prosecution.

You are certainly free to believe that Zimmerman is an unrepentant racist murderer. However, few are ready to jettison our basic criminal constitutional protections because of your personal disdain for Zimmerman, hatred of firearms and the Second Amendment, or lack of understanding of centuries of self-defense jurisprudence.

[bravenak]

157. The system is racist and always has been.

I bet you can't name a time in America when the system was not racist. Keep pushing this weak sauce. You never seem to care about the people who are harmed by this racist system, just about upholding it. Never once have I seen you demonstrate concern that the system is racist and needs a major overhaul. Fair for all or fair for none.

[branford]

167. The system as designed is not racist.

What exactly is racist about the presumption of innocence, due process, guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or the other panoply of constitutional criminal protections?

Sadly, sometimes the system fails because its rules are not objectively followed, including sometimes by participants judging others on the color of their skin. In order to end racial disparities in the justice system, I and others fight to ensure the rules and protections are strictly followed and universally implemented.

Your idea of a "major overhaul" appears to be little more than mob justice, with "caring" replacing evidence of guilt.

[bravenak]

169. The system is racist and was designed as such.

Black people were not even originally allowed to testify against a white person. That is how it was designed. Here. On earth. In America. It is still racist in practice, hence the high as fuck incarceration rate for blacks. Why are you pretending the system is not racist?

[Feral Child]

186. Smug.

Disgustingly smug.
Enjoying the fact that a racist murderer gamed the system, a system rigged to be gamed by racists and gloated over by other racists.

[Bjorn Against]

161. No, you are the one that doesn't understand the law

You are one person who likes to go around scolding people who oppose the murder of unarmed black teenagers and telling them that they don't understand the law.

The problem is we do understand the law, and we understand the law is racist and needs to be challenged. We understand that people like you who tear down those who are standing up and speaking out against the murder of innocent black people are supporting that racist system.

We have seen the law lock up far too many black citizens for drug crimes while white people who use the same drugs are given treatment instead of prison.

We have seen our prisons filled up with non-violent black people and we have seen the complete failure of the law to address such racial disparities.

And then we see gunners insisting they have the right to gun unarmed people down in the streets and demand we prove the person they gunned down to be innocent.

I see you in thread after thread advocating for the right of people to gun down unarmed black men, but I have never once seen you express any concern what so ever about the rights of people like Trayvon Martin.

The law you keep telling us we don't understand is actually a law we understand far too well, it is a law that imprisons and on many occassions outright kills innocent black people, but instead of trying to change this racist law you lecture the people who are trying to change it.

Don't tell me I don't understand the law, because I understand it far too well and I am sick of hearing people defend the racist system.

[Rye Bread Pizza]

163. How can an explanation make someone a racist?

People here are trying to explain to you how the system works and the reason for the outcome.
They were not defended the system nor the outcome.

Understanding does not mean approval.

[bravenak]

171. The system works for whites.

And not the poor ones.

[Rye Bread Pizza]

175. So explaining how the system works is racist? n/t

[bravenak]

176. Ignoring the racism inherent in the system is racist.

[Rye Bread Pizza]

178. And blaming the messenger for the message is silly. n/t

[bravenak]

179. I blame the messenger for an asinine message.

The system is set up unfairly. Trying to convince us to trust an unfair system and defending it earns derision. Nobody here is stupid.

[Rye Bread Pizza]

182. You are still confusing understanding with approval.

Just because someone understands how the system works and explains the outcome does not in any way imply they approve of it.
I am reading in other posts that people are attempting to explain this and for some reason you can't seem to wrap your head around that.
Anyway, I do not wish to pile on to your troubles so I will only wish you good health and good fortune. Peace.

[bravenak]

183. He does approve of the system.

You would have to have read some of the other threads he shows up on. Always defending the system in every way.
I think you just have not been in the threads with him since this Summer. This sort of thing goes back a ways.

[Spazito]

222. Well said! n/t

[Live and Learn]

298. You do realize, that based upon your understanding of the law,

any of us could be legally killed for nothing more than walking home from a store with skittles in our pocket, running from a gun wielding maniac and when accosted by the maniac refusing to surrender.

I don't want to live in your world.

[Hekate]

73. Is it self defense to stalk someone, as the armed Zimmerman did Trayvon?

[jwirr]

96. How about stalked? What Zimmerman was doing was very close to stalking. Follows him in a car

then gets out and follows him. I would be scared to death if someone did that to me. Even the police told him to stay in his car and wait for them.

[branford]

147. There is no crime of "very close to stalking,"

that could obviate any claim of self-defense. [The police also did not order Zimmerman to stay in his car. A non-emergency dispatcher with no authority only suggested to Zimmerman that he did not need to follow Martin. The difference is not trivial.]

What Zimmerman did by following Martin (among other actions) was stupid, annoying, and possibly even had racist undertone (although no such evidence was presented), but it was not criminal or sufficiently threatening as an objective matter to justify the use of force by Martin, as per Zimmerman's defense theory. That is why Zimmerman was not charged with stalking, as any remotely competent judge would throw it out and never permit it go before a jury, and the prosecution's theory of the case did not claim that Martin attacked Zimmerman in self-defense.

In any event, there are far too many armchair lawyers and judges on DU who wholly or mostly do not understand the basics of criminal procedure, standard self defense, no less Florida SYG, or who actually tried to watch the trial with an even remotely objective perspective.

The prosecution's case was dismal, primarily because they overcharged and many of the key prosecution witnesses sounded like they were testifying for the defense or were simply terrible on the stand. The defense case in chief almost appeared superfluous. When one of the prosecuting attorneys implored the jury to "use their gut" in closing statements, it spoke volumes about their view of the strength of the state's case. It really appeared that the original decision of the local prosecutor that the evidence didn't support a prosecution was correct.

You can believe that Zimmerman was a terrible, racist murderer, and a "not guilty" verdict does not necessarily imply actual innocence. However, in order to actually convict him, the state needed need to prove the elements of the crime of murder (or the lesser charges) beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury in a court of law with admissible evidence. Righteous indignation is not evidence. When the jury returned their "not guilty" within hours, it was entirely expected and unsurprising.

[bravenak]

148. It WAS unsurprising.

We have a racist system and always have.

[Bjorn Against]

154. Absolutely Bravenak

There is nothing that annoys me more than people telling those of us who oppose the murder of unarmed black people that we don't understand the law.

We do understand the law, and we understand that the law has been racist since this country's founding. Those who do not see the racism in a system that punishes blacks far worse than it punishes whites are the ones who don't understand the law.

[bravenak]

155. Exactly.

Those that chide us for caring about the people, never seem to give a crap about humans. They just care about their words on paper.
And the Lawyerly ones irritate me the most. Either you uphold the status quo and try to shut everyone else up, or you can be a human. They choose the unfair system. Sad.

[branford]

162. We are a nation of laws.

Those "words on paper" are what established and guide our democratic republic, and cannot and will not be dismissed when they prove inconvenient to your or others demands.

You implication that those who disagree with you about the Zimmerman verdict don't "give a crap about humans" is highly offensive and self-righteous rubbish. People can believe Zimmerman acted badly or stupidly, or even was a racist, and still acknowledge that the state failed to meet the burden for criminal guilt. The system sometimes works even when you don't like the ultimate results.

The way I "give a crap about humans" is by demanding that everyone, even those I don't like or who are actually terrible people, are guaranteed due process and are not punished because of emotions, preconceived notions or generalized distaste for a group, but rather only after their guilt is proved beyond a reasonable doubt with admissible evidence.

The "lawyerly ones" apparently annoy you because we will not be silenced or dismissed by vague claims of moral superiority or emotional suffering. We demand that you identify the specific deficiencies of the system you purport to hate, explain how you would improve it while actually maintaining fundamental democratic principles and notions of due process, and show actual evidence how the system failed or the verdict was unsupportable. We do not first state our belief in guilt and then demand and expect the system to comply.

You advocate for the justice of the mob, at least so long as it agrees with you.

And, to the extent you did not already know, I'm actually a practicing trial attorney. Some of my career and much of political activism was and is currently devoted to ensuring minority defendants, mainly young males, actually received adequate due process and fair and proportional sentences. I simply refuse to be a blatant hypocrite about these essential rights when a defendant is unsavory. If you do not understand this, you should study the work of the ACLU.

[bravenak]

164. Black people live under a racist system.

Words are wind. We are telling you that the system is fucked up and you just want to chide us about how awesome the system us for you. It is not for us.

Name a time in our history when black people did not live under a racist system. You cannot. Your system is racist and we are going to scream and shout about it until the status quoers get real fucking uncomfortable. As uncomfortable as a black man in a traffic stop. That includes all of you. Yes.

We are going to shame all of y'all for being complicit and not giving a fuck about the victims. Black people.

Since you know things, you know that black people are not considered innocent until proven guilty unless they are privileged. Most of us are not. You can see how fucked up it is. Black men are getting exonerated by dna every damn day. Lives stolen by your fair system with all of that due process and shit.

Walk a day in a black mans shoes and you'd stop being mealy mouthed and get real fucking pissed and disgusted. You can say those 'reasonable' things. You don't have to live black.

[JustAnotherGen]

220. "You don't have to live black."

That sums up a lot of snotty in America - eh?

This arrogance I see in America is stunning.

[bravenak]

236. Arrogant as hell!

I never realized how condescending people were. Telling me I don't understand the Law. Bullshit! There ain't much that I can't understand. I'm just not going to pretend.

[Bjorn Against]

170. We are a nation of racist laws

We are a nation with a long history of racism.

The defenders of this racist system like to claim that they support due process for all, but Trayvon Martin or Mike Brown never received any due process.

You tell me that you do work to ensure minorities receive due process, but if you really cared about due process you would ensure that murderers like George Zimmerman can not take away a person's right to due process.

You are a defender of a racist system, I don't want to live under the racist laws you defend any longer.

We may be a nation of laws, but far too many of those laws are unjust and people like you work to ensure that it remains unjust.

[jwirr]

230. A nation of laws that favor one race. We do not advocate for equal justice. I think it was JFK who

warned that if the system is not just it forces people to protest. And I think it was our founding fathers who allowed for protesting in the first place.

We hear what you are saying: there are laws.

You do not hear us: The laws and the system that uses them is racist and unequal.

[Feral Child]

188. They gloat

when the system is used in the way they want it to be used.

Zimmerman with a keyboard rather than a gun.

[bravenak]

189. They sure do love to gloat about it.

With that condescending manner too. Like we can't possibly UNDERSTAND the system and still know that it's unjust. And know it was built that way on purpose.

[Feral Child]

216. Of course.

White People understand the Law. It's complicated, you know. You'll just have to trust them to take care of you!

Well, these sorts of white people should know it, they wrote the Law in order to use it thus.

[jwirr]

226. I recognize the truth in you last paragraph but states like Fla make laws that can be interpreted

to allow things like this. Just like the lawyers do with a Grand Jury. But I do not have to pretend that there was no racism involved in these cases. Nor do I have to pretend that he was somehow not to blame for the killing of Trayvon Martin. He was the aggressor and had no legal standing to be able to do what he did. He was playing wanta-be cop. And from all I have read he still is.

[gollygee]

19. The whole incident started when Trayvon Martin was walking home from the 7-11

with some snacks. If not for racism, he would have been left alone and would have gone home and enjoyed his snacks.

He was just a kid going home. He was portrayed as some violent criminal, but he was just a kid walking home. There's no valid reason to think he would have done anything but try to get home. Might he have lashed out to try to get away? Maybe. He absolutely did not deserve to get killed, and I agree that it's racism to see him as some scary "thug" who was dangerous even though he wasn't armed.

[jwirr]

234. Absolutely. All we need to do is take a look at the trivial actions that are seen as having a death

sentence for black young men today and there is the proof of the racism and the inequality of the law: Shopping for a toy gun in WalMart, selling ones own cigarettes, jaywalking, shoplifting, speeding to the hospital in an emergency, walking home wearing a hoodie and the list goes on. All of these ended in death. Often this is part of a police quota system that in itself is racist and a taxation on both black people and the poor.

I am white and I will tell you I have seen all of these things done in my community and no one was killed. In fact they are often ignored. Shoplifting is taken to court and speeding to the hospital in an emergency often ends in the police leading the race to the hospital with their siren on. If this is not applying the law unequally I do not know what is.

It is the responsibility of the courts, the law enforcement, the prosecutors, the juries and government to see that this is changed. And it should have happened long ago.

[sheshe2]

27. Care to comment on Eric Garner or Michael Brown.....................................................

....................................or any of the others?

Martin attacking Zimmerman, sure that's the way the story always goes. Black man unarmed attacks armed person. Shot to death with excessive force multiple times. Reason? Macho armed white man was in fear for his life, in fear for his life, in abject fear for his life!

Seriously, they need to find new work. They are obviously under qualified and dismal failures at their job.

[Vattel]

40. The killers of Garner should have been indicted. The level of violence was absurd.

Wilson almost certainly told some lies in his grand jury testimony and so should have been indicted too. The prosecutor allowed other witnesses to testify even though he knew they were lying. That is fucking ridiculous. There needs to be a special prosecutor assigned to reexamine the case.

[MrScorpio]

257. The racist system of laws that we all lived under have determined their deaths to be justifiable...

While people (white people especially) go out of their way to defend that system, I doubt if changes are in the making.

[brush]

104. You wanna know who was lying?

zimmerman claimed that Martin slugged him some 35 times and then slammed his head onto concrete 15 to 20 times.

Anybody with any sense has to know that is a lie. If your head is slammed onto concrete like that you would be either very seriously concussed and knocked cold and quite possibly dead. Concrete does not give. It's hard as hell — much harder than the human skull.

zimmerman also claim that after all that pummeling, he was able to reach around Martin's straddling knees and pull his gun out from underneath his own weight and Martin's weight then shoot while still being beaten.

You have to know that is the biggest crock of sh_t ever told as a defense. EVER!

What did he have, six-foot long Stretch Armstrong arms to reach around Martin's thighs and under his own body, and then the strength of Superman to reach under his own allegedly pinned body weight and pull out the gun?

You want proof what happens when a head hits concrete? Here's a link:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/man-knocked-unconscious-cracks-skull-racial-slur-article-1.1397834

Read that story and look at the photo and come back and tell me you still believe zimmerman's lie.

You're on a progressive site for God's sake. Pls cut the right wing talking points. We ain't buying it here.

[cwydro]

276. Zimmerman got OUT OF HIS CAR

to attack Trayvon.

That is on the audio.

He is a murdering scumbag.

[sheshe2]

294. Vattel to earth!

THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT ZIMMERMAN. What about that do you not get? Open your eyes Vattel.

Stop looking at the shining object. Look at the truth that is right before your eyes.

[notadmblnd]

227. If Trayvon Martin had been white, GZ would be on death row in FL right now.

[bravenak]

231. Yes, he sure would!

They might fast lane him to the execution chamber. America the free.

[Bjorn Against]

8. I will say it straight out, Zimmerman defenders are a bunch of racist shitstains

Those who cheer on people like Zimmerman are the modern day equivalent of the KKK. Just as the KKK defended the lynching of unarmed black men, Zimmerman supporters advocate the murder of unarmed black men.

They try to cloak their racism by talking about "reasonable doubt", but if these murder defending racist assholes cared one bit about reasonable doubt they would recognize that Trayvon Martin was never proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt yet their favorite murderer stole his life without due process.

But Zimmerman's shit stain fan club does not give a flying fuck about black people's rights, so they were perfectly fine with a murderer taking away every last one of Trayvon Martin's rights.

Fuck George Zimmerman and the racist murder supporters in his fan club.

[Vattel]

14. Your little emotional outburst is not the same as offering evidence.

[Bjorn Against]

20. Well you have offered no evidence to prove Trayvon guilty

Zimmerman supporters don't believe black people are innocent until proven guilty however, they are perfectly fine with black people being gunned down in the street without trial.

[Vattel]

25. I don't know whether Martin attacked Zimmerman. The evidence is inconclusive.

[Bjorn Against]

31. So does inconclusive evidence warrant the death penalty?

[Vattel]

33. Now you are just not making any sense. I am done with this conversation.

[Bjorn Against]

38. Is it really that complicated of a question?

Should people be able to gun down others in the street without having to provide evidence of their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?

Should shooting victims have no right to be judged innocent until proven guilty?

[Nye Bevan]

60. That's the problem with making it legal for people like Zimmerman to carry guns,

and having a law that allows guns to be fired in purported self-defense. When one of the main witnesses is dead, it is very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (as the law requires) that the shooting constituted murder, as opposed to self-defense. As I have pointed out, if this incident had happened in the UK, the night would have probably ended with both Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin being patched up in the emergency room and being sent home.

[Bjorn Against]

63. The problem is people think a gunner's right to kill outweighs every last one of the victim's rights

There is no reason that a shooting victim should not be considered innocent until proven guilty, only a racist would believe it is acceptable to shoot down unarmed black people without even having to provide evidence of their guilt.

[Nye Bevan]

64. "only a racist would believe it is acceptable to shoot down unarmed black people"

Fully agree.

[Feral Child]

190. I wish.

I sincerely wish that all the intruders that gloat over the unlawful and unjustified murders of unarmed black people were done with this conversation, done with their unhealthy enjoyment of the grief of black parents, done with their droning about "law and order" to excuse twisted laws and jury nullification.

But you aren't done. Racism isn't done. Injustice isn't done. It's a sickness that rots away at inadequate people who need so desperately to feel superior they support murder, encourage murderers.

Racism is a fetish and we're a nation controlled by deviants.

[MadDAsHell]

81. And you have offered no evidence that Trayvon's death or the trial outcome involved race. nt

[Bjorn Against]

85. Bullshit, there is centuries of racism that provide plenty of evidence

An armed black man following an unarmed white kid and gunning down in the street would have been found guilty in a second. And you can guarantee none of the NRA racist shit stains would be defending the black guy either.

[Feral Child]

191. Dear CrazyAsHell

We have no openings for racists at this time, our quota is filled. Thank you for applying.

[bravenak]

195. Best post of the day!

[Feral Child]

207. Thanks, bravenak.

Ain't this one obvious?

[bravenak]

235. Yep. Most of them are.

[rbrnmw]

208. Great post and so true!!!!

[Feral Child]

214. Thanks, rbrnmw!

I suspect some recidivism in his Heritage...

[rbrnmw]

215. lol

[Enthusiast]

279. +1 an entire shit load.

[Union Scribe]

209. Do you think Zimmerman would've followed a white kid?

It was about race from the moment he decided Martin was suspicious. That's what led to the shooting.

[MadDAsHell]

218. "It was about race"

Based on...

Is it enough in 2015 to say it's a race-based crime simply if the involved individuals are different races? That's all it takes now?

Every interaction between black and white (what they think, say and do) is completely based on their prejudice against each other?

It's sad that you have such a pessimistic view of humanity. There are plenty of racists out there but I'm also willing to admit that there are a lot of good people in this world who care about others regardless of the color of their skin.

[Union Scribe]

221. "there are a lot of good people in this world" WTF?

We're not talking about a lot of good people. We're talking about a guy who went after a black teenager for no damn reason and wound up shooting him to death! That's hardly a normal "interaction between black and white" so what is it you're trying to say?

[Enthusiast]

278. If Trayvon was white, he would still be alive.

If Trayvon happened to be white and yet killed, Zimmerman would be in prison.

This is as sure as the sunrise. If you don't believe that you have an ingrained racist bent.

[rbrnmw]

300. very true

If you don't believe that you have an ingrained racist bent

[bettyellen]

29. did you miss the jurors obvious racism? So much for the "system

Working" bullshit. They appealed to the jurors fear of black men, and it worked. That's not justice.

[Nye Bevan]

36. When a seemingly credible witness stated that Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman,

"pounding him MMA style", one can see why even a non-racist jury could conclude that they could not convict Zimmerman of murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/28/questions-still-loom-over-george-zimmerman-trial

[bettyellen]

39. It takes a racist mindset to ignore the fact that an innocent teen

Was stalked. And they found that, in the jurors they selected.

[Nye Bevan]

41. I think we all, including the jurors, realize that Zimmerman's behavior was despicable.

And he certainly should not have been stalking Trayvon Martin. However, given the witness testimony, I do not think that it would be possible to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was guilty of murder.

[bettyellen]

44. Nope, some jurors thought GZ had his heart in the right place when he profiled TM for being a

Theif... Who'd already been caught. Pretzel logic to justify fear of POC. Why are you defending that bullshit?

[Nye Bevan]

49. Again, I am not defending Zimmerman's behavior.

But given the witness testimony that had Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, "pounding him MMA style", I can understand why a jury would not be able to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman was guilty of murder.

In a similar vein, I think that it is very likely that OJ Simpson murdered Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. But I have said a number of times that due to the presence of the racist cop Mark Furhman on the investigation team, along with procedural screw-ups by the cops, I can understand why the jury was not prepared to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that OJ was guilty of murder. Does this make me an "OJ defender" or a "Nicole Brown hater"? I don't think so, any more than defending the Zimmerman jury verdict makes me a "Zimmerman defender".

[bettyellen]

70. You refuse to acknowledge the racism in both the trial and the jury room....

So yeah- it does appear you're making excuses for systematic racism.

[Nye Bevan]

79. OK, if after all that you still believe I am "making excuses for systematic racism",

then I am clearly not doing a good enough job of explaining my position, and for that, I apologize.

[sheshe2]

83. White silence to the facts, bettyellen.

Ssssssh. No racism here.

[rbrnmw]

301. Sorry but no

If he was being pound "MMA style" he wouldn't have been able to reach his gun. I don't think that witness was credible at all.

[Enthusiast]

280. Zimmerman was guilty of murder.

Beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Nye Bevan]

282. Do you think the witness Jonathan Good was lying?

“It looked like there were strikes being thrown, punches being thrown,” Good said.

Later, under cross-examination, he said that it looked like the person on top was straddling the person on bottom in a mixed-martial arts move known as “ground and pound.” When defense attorney Mark O’Mara asked him if the person on top was Martin, Good said, “Correct, that’s what it looked like.”

Good also said the person on the bottom yelled for help

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/28/potential-major-blow-for-zimmerman-prosecution-neighbor-says-person-on-the-bottom-during-struggle-appeared-to-have-lighter-skin/

[Enthusiast]

286. Yes. Jonathan Good was clearly a liar and a racist.

And how fucking stupid would one have to be to allow a guy to threaten you with a gun and not respond.

If Trayvon punched Zimmerman he certainly did it in self defense. If Trayvon had secured the gun and shot Zimmerman to death he would have been justified. Of course a racist wouldn't see it that way.

To racists, back men are always wrong, even if they are only teenagers packing skittles.

[Nye Bevan]

290. What evidence is there that Jonathan Good is a racist

other than that you didn't like his testimony? I mean, someone would have to be quite the racist to risk being charged with perjury over testimony relating to someone who wasn't even a friend of his. And bear in mind, in order to convict Zimmerman you would need not just to think, or suspect, that Jonathan Good is a liar, but to be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that he is a liar.

[Enthusiast]

297. I'm not on trail. I go by my impressions.

I know what I see. I know much of American testimony is motivated by racism. And many posts on DU are motivated by racism.

[gwheezie]

58. I would have seen it differenrly

I would have thought since Zimmerman did not stay in his car and stalked the young man and was armed and I don't believe for a minute Zimmerman pulled the gun the way he said that Zimmerman had his gun out and Trayvon after being stalked by the crazy nut thought he was going to get shot in the back so jumped Zimmerman to give himself a chance of not getting killed by this armed lunatic who would have paid no attention to Trayvon if Trayvon was white.
Zimmerman pulled his gun when Trayvon asked him why the fuck he was following him. Trayvon had no choice but to defend himself against the racist nut. So Zimmerman shot him. Trayvon and Zimmerman were fighting. At some point Trayvon was able to get on top of Zimmerman. That doesn't in anyway justify Zimmerman shooting him. It doesn't prove a thing except Trayvon had the choice of being shot in the back trying to get away or trying to disarm the crazy racist stalker. That's how I would hear that testimony
See I think Zimmerman was the thug. Nothing Trayvon did that night should have caused Zimmerman concern. Zimmerman stalked him and pulled a gun on Trayvon because Trayvon was black.

[sheshe2]

78. Question? You as a white man I presume?

If someone stalked you with a gun, would you have laid down and be shot or would you have fought for you life?

When a seemingly credible witness stated that Trayvon Martin was on top of Zimmerman,


"pounding him MMA style", one can see why even a non-racist jury could conclude that they could not convict Zimmerman of murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

Dear goddess~

[Nye Bevan]

82. I would run away as fast as I could, zig-zagging to make me a harder target to hit (nt)

[sheshe2]

84. And if you never had that chance to run?

He was there. A big man and he had a gun, you would not have fought for all you were worth to live?

[Nye Bevan]

88. If for some reason I couldn't run, I would probably put my hands up and beg for mercy. (nt)

[sheshe2]

98. Well as a white person that probably would work out well for you.

Black man~ not so well.

[url=http://postimage.org/][img][/img][/url]

Even when their hands are up and they are not even given the seconds to plead for their life.

If you have been listening unarmed black men are being murdered in the street. They are shot and killed in seconds of an encounter. The scenario you talk about would only be for those with white privilege. See? Get the picture now?

[Nye Bevan]

130. I was actually already aware that there are racist cops out there,

who are more likely to open fire on a black person than a white person, under the same set of circumstances. And it is certainly horrible that such racist cops exist.

[sheshe2]

136. Thank you nye for saying that. I truly thank you.

So few from DU ever respond on these posts. And if they do, never in a positive way. A post about race, I can hear DU doors slamming shut. Silence and that is no joke.

[Feral Child]

192. They *relish* the fact that the jurors were racist.

It supports their delusions of superiority.

Just like intruding here and gaming the system makes them feel clever.

Without all that reinforcement they'd feel so ...ordinary.

[Kalidurga]

202. neither is yours

[brush]

118. I agree 100%

I posted a link for one zimmerman defender to look at.

Remember not long after the zimmerman lies began about him having his head slammed onto concrete 15-20 times by Martin?

This link has a story and picture of what happens when a human head hits concrete.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/man-knocked-unconscious-cracks-skull-racial-slur-article-1.1397834

I'm still waiting for that zimmerman defender to answer back now that zimmerman's lies are evident and he should now know that his own right wing talking points on this case are shitstains on humanity and he should be ASHAMED.

I'M STILL WAITING.

[Bjorn Against]

121. I don't want to click on that link, but I know you are correct

Zimmerman's story was obvious bullshit, the only people who believed it are the racists who were determined to justify the murder of a black person.

I don't need to click on that link to know that getting your head slammed into the concrete repeatedly is going to do a lot more damage than a couple of scratches on the back of the head.

[brush]

127. EXACTLY! nt

[Enthusiast]

275. +1! I agree with you that Zimmerman defenders are a bunch of racist shitstains.

They might not even recognize they are racist. They justify their beliefs on an unconscious level.

[cwydro]

277. I don't like your name-calling,

but I understand (and agree with) your point.

[sheshe2]

11. This is not just about Zimmerman.

That's why I said everything old is new again. Once again black men are being shot. Portrayed as thugs. They are the victims being left in the street and vilified and disrespected. White people just don't seem to get that. And they are silent, so silent, just like DU.

Ssssssssh~ silence.

[cwydro]

274. How in hell can you say DU is silent?

There have been threads upon threads about police violence and racism.

Are you somehow not seeing these threads?

Your threads. bravenak's threads, 1strongblackman's threads. numerous other threads posted by whites and blacks on this site.

Seriously?

[sheshe2]

281. Of course there are threads, cwydro.

You miss my point, sorry if I did not make that clear. When these threads abound in GD, some posters that always have a nasty word, oh let's be real, they display hair on fire outrage about Obama are strangely silent here, nary a peep when it comes to the subject of race. You can hear a pin drop here from some.

One cannot claim to be a progressive in the Democratic Party, without showing some compassion or understanding of race in America.

[cwydro]

283. Sorry if I missed your point.

I think most DUers care deeply about this issue.

I truly do.

[brush]

89. Are you actually saying that the zimmerman verdict was correct?

Please tell me I'm reading your post incorrectly.

[Nye Bevan]

95. It is possible to hold the view that Zimmerman is a despicable racist,

while also holding the view that the prosecution did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was guilty of murder.

Just like the OJ Simpson verdict was probably not "correct", in that OJ was probably guilty, but there is an arguable case that the prosecution did not prove OJ's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Bjorn Against]

101. There is a big difference between this case and the OJ case

OJ claimed that he did not kill anyone, Zimmerman on the other hand admits he killed Trayvon but tries to claim it was justified for him to do so.

OJ was arguing that he was innocent, while Zimmerman argued the case that Trayvon "had it coming".

I think OJ was more than likely guilty, but I can accept that there was reasonable doubt and I can respect the jury's verdict.

I can not respect the jury's verdict in the Zimmerman trial however because it absolutely sickens me that anyone could claim there is anything justifiable about stalking and shooting an unarmed black teenager.

[Nye Bevan]

107. Zimmerman did not testify in his trial.

So I'm not sure where your "had it coming" quote is from. But I did watch a lot of the trial, and I did not think that the prosecution was successful in proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was guilty of murder.

[Bjorn Against]

114. I am not saying he did testify, but his defense was still based on "he had it coming"

And no, that is not a direct quote from the trial but it was the essence of the argument Zimmerman's legal team was making. I am sick of gunners being given the right to play judge, jury, and executioner and I am sickened by the fact that anyone would justify Zimmerman's actions.

[Feral Child]

193. Is it also possible to believe

that the prosecutor didn't try to prove Zimmerman guilty?

Or that it would be impossible to prove that guilt to a jury of racists that approve of the murder of blacks?


Is it possible to believe that there were other racists in that courtroom besides the murderer?

I suppose it possible to believe you can walk into a Vegas casino and walk out a millionaire, but it's pretty damn unlikely. As unlikely as Justice in an American court if you happen to have been born black.

[Nye Bevan]

233. The prosecutor was forced to try an unwinnable case.

Most of the prosecution witnesses appeared to help the defense.

The best approach would have been a plea-bargain for a lesser charge like manslaughter, hopefully with Zimmerman serving some jail time.

[Feral Child]

268. Just my opinion,

I don't think she tried.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

217. Spot on, but don't expect that to go down well here. N.T.

[riqster]

229. Changing the subject, I see.

From racism to judicial outcomes.

[Hutzpa]

4. Very good job, sheshe

[handmade34]

5. 5 things...

white people can do... (by Tim Wise)

1.Stop telling black people to get over slavery.
2.Believe black people when they say they’re being profiled.
3.Stop saying you have a black friend as a get out of racism free card
4.Confront the long legacy of white denial when it comes to racism.
5.Stop using statistics incorrectly to justify prejudice.



(by author of article)

1.Acknowledge out loud that racism exists.
2.Stop being racist.
3.Call out racism when you see it.
4.Be teachable about racism when you don’t see it.
5.Vote to change things.

https://www.lavc.edu/stars/10%20Things%20You%20Can%20Do%20to%20Improve%20Race%20Relations.pdf
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/tim-wise-tells-cnns-don-lemon-the-5-things-white-people-should-do-to-improve-race-relations/

[oberliner]

13. How does one do #4?

4.Confront the long legacy of white denial when it comes to racism.

How does that manifest itself in terms of actions?

[bravenak]

23. Stop pretending racism is not racism.

Stop blaming sagging pants and unidentified thugs and black on black crime for racism. Stop pretending that the 'black crime rate' makes it ok to discriminate and stop black people all the damn time. Stop blaming the victim of racism for racism. Stop thinking the problem will go away if we ignore it. Buried grudges are the seeds of vengeance.

[Behind the Aegis]

184. Education.

Though not black, I can draw on my experiences as someone who is gay and Jewish (among other things). When one learns the intricacies of racism, the "denial" becomes much easier to see. Example: My mother (64) is a white woman. She calls males younger than her "boy", including all 4 of her adult children (and her handsome, finally legal, son-in-law, my husband). While she was teaching, she told 2 of her students (young adults, over 18); "You boys stop talking while I teaching!" The two "boys" in question were both African-American. My mother meant nothing racist, as she literally says it all males younger than her, but they didn't know this. It was a case of misinterpretation. When she told me about it, I had to explain whether her intention or not, they didn't know her, and given what they may/have experienced in life, having a white person call them "boy" was seen as a racist insult. There is a 'denial' on her part that in this day and age people don't refer to black men as "boy," unlike her childhood, where it was common. It is our responsibility as the majority culture to be more aware of the needs and concerns of minority cultures.

Take a look from the Jewish perspective: recently, even posted here at DU, was an article about someone who was offended by wrapping paper that appeared to have swastikas. The reaction from many was to "remind" Jews (and others) of the swastikas original meaning, the common "I don't see it!" implying it's all in the Jews' minds, to tell Jews they were being "too sensitive," to stop playing the "Holocaust card" and get over it, and Jews are always looking to "play the anti-Semitism card." It is arrogant and it demonstrates a denial of anti-Semitism or perception of it. Even if it is nothing more than a misunderstanding (see the above example with my mom), it is irresponsible and presumptuous of a majority culture to ignore, or, in some cases, ridicule the concerns of a minority culture.

Education isn't just learning facts and figures, it is also learning about the popular and longstanding culture, understanding the needs of the culture, and respecting the minority perspective. When we, as white people, stand by and say nothing about racism, it can be, and is seen by some, as approval or indifference. We can't always understand everything because we don't live our lives as AA folks. We don't "think" about getting pulled over by the cops, or followed in the stores, or watching TV shows where people "like us" are represented in non-stereotypical fashions in a situation not meant to be satirical. It doesn't mean the minority perspective is always right/correct/informed, but it does need to be given heed.

[oberliner]

213. "You boys stop talking while I am teaching"

This is racist for a teacher to say to her students if said students are black? What if one was black and one was white?

[bravenak]

239. Calling black men boy stems from slavery and Jim Crow.

Black men were not men. They were boys. Many still use it in that racist way. It was never like that for White men or boys. They were real people. That's why.

There are free books on kindle about this, i usually download most of them if they come out free. I like books.

[oberliner]

242. What if the teacher also calls the white students boys?

Certainly if the teacher exclusively called the black students boys, that would be racist. But if the teacher (a woman in her 70s) referred to all of her students as boys and girls regardless of their race, would that still be racist?

[bravenak]

243. Doesn't matter.

She knows the history if she is of that age. Have you seen Fritz the Cat? There's a scene where Fritz goes and hangs with the Crows (black people, lol, stereotypical) and he calls one boy. They had to high tail it outta there so he didn't get beat up.

People do similar things to Jews to make them seem lesser.

[oberliner]

244. Fascinating

No, I have never seen Fritz the Cat.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[bravenak]

247. No problem.

You should watch it. It's weird.

[sheshe2]

314. This.

Education isn't just learning facts and figures, it is also learning about the popular and longstanding culture, understanding the needs of the culture, and respecting the minority perspective. When we, as white people, stand by and say nothing about racism, it can be, and is seen by some, as approval or indifference. We can't always understand everything because we don't live our lives as AA folks. We don't "think" about getting pulled over by the cops, or followed in the stores, or watching TV shows where people "like us" are represented in non-stereotypical fashions in a situation not meant to be satirical. It doesn't mean the minority perspective is always right/correct/informed, but it does need to be given heed.

I know you get it, you as well know I was not targeting you. I know you are gay, and I love you for that. I know you are Jewish and disrespected for that here at times. I am so sorry. Should not happen, yet it does.

My post was not ever meant to be a broad brush. Some of us get it and some never will. It is sad. As a woman I have my own brand of disrespect. We all do. Yet we have to stand together.

Unless we stand together we will all fall.

[bravenak]

9. Like you cared before.

[oneshooter]

90. Jury results

On Sat Jan 3, 2015, 08:55 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I don't care anymore
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6037798

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Notice how he only mentions the black officers turning their backs?
Then he goes into the thug meme to absolve everyone of ending racism.
This person. Is. A. Troll.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jan 3, 2015, 09:08 PM, and the Jury voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: "Thugs"? Nice racist dog-whistle there. I agree. Definitely a troll.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: You showed your true intentions with this little gem - "Don't defend the thugs when they are very clearly in very bad wrong. It only destroys your credibility. It isn't fair but it never has been for those fighting for their rightfull place in our society. "
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Thug is as Thug is.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Very borderline HIDE. I was on the side of LEAVE until I got to the word "thug" - that's inflammatory.

Not sure why people are trying to turn Lyndon Johnson into the Alamo. Don't we have a current Civil Rights Movement to worry about here?

[bravenak]

94. Thank you.

I did not understand the Johnson comment.

[Number23]

12. Oh, she. Don't you know that racism will go away the SECOND that people just stop talking about it?

You "social justice warriors" just need to understand that unless white people can be comfortable economically, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.

What good is having "social justice" (respect, tolerance, freedom from racism and oppression) if white people's economic standing is at stake??

[gollygee]

30. When there are no more poor white people.

That's what we keep hearing. Racial justice has to wait until this unattainable goal that only benefits white people is met.

[Number23]

37. Yes! Get with the program, damnit!

When all of the economic needs of white people are met, then everybody else will be taken care of.

Who says that the Trickle Down theory of economics is dead or only supported by Republicans??

[freshwest]

166. I see it now! Trickle down social justice! There it is!

I will be using that one...

[Number23]

180. Trickle down justice!! That is a BEYOND perfect summation of too many here

And these folks probably wonder why so many people with melanin leave the room when they come in.

[PowerToThePeople]

204. I was going to respond, but then I remembered

Nice to see the authoritarian oligarch cheer squad here tossing the race card towards those seeking change to a corrupt economic system.

[gollygee]

205. "the race card" ??

Really? If you use that term, it explains everything.

[PowerToThePeople]

206. gollygee

Wow, such an unexpected response.

How about "racist card"

the phrase is commonly used in two contexts. In the first, and more common context, it alleges that someone has deliberately and falsely accused another person of being a racist in order to gain some sort of advantage.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_card

This is your game.

[sheshe2]

56. You know what I see here 23?

The turning point is coming. I can smell the fear and desperation, because old white men will not be the majority for to much longer. They are so desperately fearful to lose and they will. We are a country of beautiful colors.

I posted about a revolution. I believe it is here. We need to keep talking, we need to keep talking and gathering every ally under the sun. All groups together. When one wins we all win.

Silence does make white people racist. Yes we see that here. Yet DU is not reality and it is changing 23

[url=http://postimage.org/][img][/img][/url]


[url=http://postimage.org/][img][/img][/url]

I hope you are wrong that it will that it will stop being talked about. I hope this time it will be different.

[SMC22307]

141. If "DU is not reality," why do you invest so much time at this site?

Who are you trying to convince? And of what? Do you think you've been successful?

You must have A LOT of free time on your hands.

[bravenak]

144. You only seem to show up to mock.

I wonder why?

[sheshe2]

145. Times like this~

I get amusement here. It's fun at times and comic relief now and again. You just made me

If "DU is not reality," why do you invest so much time at this site?
Who are you trying to convince? And of what? Do you think you've been successful?
You must have A LOT of free time on your hands.

Do you have a spread sheet for how much time I spend here? Maybe my posting habits? K~ when did I log in today, did you record that? How long was I actively participating here today? You must have that somewhere in your notes.

You must have a lot of time on YOUR HANDS TO BE MONITORING MY TIME HERE!!!!! Holy Get a grip.

PS~ Any comments on my OP. That's why people post Op's here, so people have a great debate about the issues. Sadly you missed that point. Your only issue is with me.

I have a hell of a lot more time to spend here now. I am free at last, I have my work week yet now no longer have to divide my time with caring for family members that are sick. Guess why? I lost them both less than two weeks apart. The last one died Thanksgiving eve. Two funerals in a week. So you see some of us come her to grieve and some of us rely on friends that help you make it through the day. Some like to post to take their minds off of other things in their lives. Your cruel remarks were uncalled for.

Think about the person at the other end of your keyboard before you issue comments.There is no need to be cruel.

[Major Hogwash]

149. As President of the Sheshe2 Fan Club, I have to say that your question is out of line.

What Sheshe2 does with her time is none of your fucking business!!

You're welcome.

[sheshe2]

160. Thank you Mr President!

Luv you Major.

[Major Hogwash]

165. It's mindblowing to me how they find their way here.

They could simply ignore the thread.
Or, use the ignore thread features that will block threads that contain certain words.
Or, just use the ignore member feature to not see what you have to say about it.

Yet, instead of using any of those alternatives, he had to come and start demanding answers for what you are saying at this site.
And that, my dear, does not sound very damned liberal to me.
Adults don't talk that way to other adults in real life, so why do they think they can pull that shit here?
It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

[freshwest]

172. Such behavior is not the best way to make friends.

7. Honor other people's thoughts, wishes and words. Never interrupt another or mock or rudely mimic them. Allow each person the right to personal expression.

~ Native American Code of Ethics

[Major Hogwash]

181. I agree, it's not the best way to make friends. So, I don't see the reasoning behind it.

What good does it do to enter into a discussion and then start demanding questions about how someone spends their time?
I've seen other people say that to other members here, and almost to a man, they were rightwing trolls that eventually got booted.

Trying to shut down discussions on a liberal forum is not liberal, per se, nor is it effective.
I've been on forums where the admins were, shall I say, "less than liberal" and although they claimed they were liberals, their actions spoke volumes about how not liberal they truly were.

I have no problem with ignoring conservative sites, there is nothing to be gained by posting my opinions on them, as far as I'm concerned.
Yet, on DU, there doesn't seem to be a consensus as to what constitutes being liberal, or being conservative.
It's like asking someone their opinion on a painting, and they say, "well, I don't know what good art is, but I know what I like."
That's fine and jim dandy with me, but when they start espousing jim crow-type opinions of who can speak here, or what subjects should be discussed, or for how long, that is where I draw the line.

The American mindset about debating issues seems to be more along the lines of black and white, right or wrong, a dichotomy that makes no sense to most of the other people that live on this planet.
Other people see shades of grey, and they also understand a concept of ethics that doesn't always end up with "just right", or "just wrong", but contains an element of justification that leaves some of the questions unanswered, or left in a limbo state and doesn't always add up to a 100%.

The Eastern mindset follows along the same path as the quote of the American Indian Code of Ethics you just posted, it is considered rude to try and stop someone else from speaking their mind about an issue.
Lao-tse, among others, taught a way of living that looks for making more friends, not looking to make more enemies.

We Americans have much to learn about compromise and negotiation.
And so, during the next 2 years, the Republicans are going to be taught a lesson from a man who lived in Indonesia as a youth and understands the way of negotiating, President Obama.

[sheshe2]

174. A 6th sense draws them.

Not to comment on an Op, but do their best to humiliate, intimidate and destroy the author without ever commenting on the Op.

It stings, yup. But I am Okay here. One hell of a lot of hides in this thread, alerts as well. One was alerted on and left. Yet my alert said it would go to the admins.

Thank you for showing up tonight, I needed that.

[riqster]

232. It may not be our business, but it is to our benefit.

Thanks, SheShe2. For this and many other posts.

[sheshe2]

284. Thank you rigster.

You are yourself.

[Nye Bevan]

18. "White voices dominate Bay Area protests of racial inequality"

With each new demonstration against the killings of unarmed black men by white police in Missouri and New York, questions — and in many cases, objections — proliferate about the role of white voices in a movement that centers on African Americans’ grievances.

The issue arose out of protests in Oakland, Berkeley and San Francisco where, night after night, there were more whites than blacks. Some black leaders say they are spending their energy organizing for action away from the streets. Others believe some African Americans are afraid to participate in protests in which small fringe mobs turn violent — putting black people in danger of the very thing they’re protesting, attacks by police.

The sentiment was forcefully articulated in a widely distributed Tumblr post this week in which an unnamed, apparently African American poster wrote: “Dear white protesters, this is NOT about you,” and urged whites to “hand over the bullhorn to a Black person (because your voice doesn’t need a bullhorn to be heard ...).”

And it erupted Tuesday on the steps of Old City Hall in Berkeley, when City Councilman Kriss Worthington, who is white, was repeatedly interrupted as he denounced aggressive police before a crowd of protesters. “Let a black person talk!” one yelled. “We’ve heard from enough Caucasian men!” yelled another. Worthington handed the mike over to Councilman Jesse Arreguin, who is Latino — and after similar heckling, the megaphone was passed to a black UC Berkeley student who was warmly welcomed.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/White-voices-dominate-Bay-Area-protests-of-racial-5953977.php

[gollygee]

24. "don't dominate" doesn't mean "remain silent"

It's a problem when people from oppressed groups find their movements taken over by the dominant group. The answer isn't for people from the dominant group to remain silent. It's for them to not take over.

[Nye Bevan]

32. Sometimes it seems like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

Silence is criticized, and so is turning out in force to protest racial injustice. I guess satisfying the critics takes a skilful balancing act. Like, whites come out and protest, but not too many of you.

[gollygee]

34. I don't see why it's so complicated

Don't remain silent, but don't take over. People of color should lead the racial justice movement, but we shouldn't remain silent. We just shouldn't take over.

[7962]

59. Why is it "taking over"? How often do whites outnumber blacks at a klan march? Always.

Why shouldnt they be there laughing at the few fools marching? It shouldnt matter WHAT color the people are speaking out are. In many cases there are just more white people in the population.
Nobody owns the right to speak out anymore than anyone else.

[ChazII]

86. It can be accomplished

even in Phoenix.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/04000.html

I have to be honest, I still feel damned no matter what I do or don't do.

[bravenak]

35. I think turning out in force is good as long as it's for the right reasons.

Taking over and being all 'look at me!" That is not appreciated.

[JustAnotherGen]

55. Wonder if any of the deniers

Are among those white folks tuning out?

I'm going to guess not.

Wrapped up in a local politics issue the past two days - ironically defending our local police commissioner (now former) in some political shenanigans. 300 signatures today in sleet and ice to try and get Him reinstated.


I walk my talk - I don't get all up in arms on the Internet.

[bravenak]

66. I want to be like you.

[KMOD]

103. +1. That's my take as well,

it really shouldn't be that hard to comprehend.

[bravenak]

116. It really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

Unless it is deliberate. That's what I think.

[KMOD]

120. Agreed!

[AgingAmerican]

46. That is exactly what it is

Speak out and you are dominating, don't speak out and you are racist and complicit.

I say, two wrongs don't make a right.

[KMOD]

129. Do you actually speak out on the issue?

You do seem to have thoughts, and speak out often, but it seems you only speak against people bringing light to it.

I'm pretty sure you were the only poster who jumped into 1StrongBlackMan's post, where he shed light on a racist post in the AA forum, and you did not condemn, or show any disgust with what the racist post said. I'm still not sure what your point was, or why you even jumped into that thread, honestly.

So what did you think of the Eric Garner video?

[AgingAmerican]

142. Sorry to disappoint

But I'm not taking your bait.

[KMOD]

151. I'm simply asking for your thoughts on the Eric Garner video

No answer? No comments?

[AgingAmerican]

143. The person you mention

Takes everything I say wrong, even when I agree with him, so it's useless trying to have rational discourse with him. He is prejudiced against me personally (not racially). He also seems to stalk me in threads, alert and otherwise.

Have a good evening.

[KMOD]

152. The person I mention seems very reasonable to me,

and extremely easy to engage in conversation.

As far as stalking, again, you jumped into his thread, for reasons that seemed very disingenuous.

But hey, it certainly appears you are not interested in dialogue, so yeah, have a good evening, I guess.

[sheshe2]

173. Bullshit!

Wake up and listen!!!!!

Not that hard really.

[bettyellen]

48. Why do you confuse domination with participation? Seems like a very easy thing to understand.

[Nye Bevan]

50. The issue is that by their very nature, protests of this sort are hard to micro-manage,

as in, it is not practical to decide ahead of time how many people of each race will be attending.

[bravenak]

51. Attending and supporting is one thing.

[Bjorn Against]

54. Do you honestly think people are trying to micro-manage how many of each race attend a protest?

As a person who has attended a few protests I can tell you that they are happy to get support from people of all colors, they are sure as hell not trying to micro-manage how many people of each race show up. They want everyone who will support them regardless of their skin color.

[Nye Bevan]

61. "They want everyone who will support them regardless of their skin color".

That makes sense to me. Hence my confusion at the complaints about protests where the number of whites happened to "dominate" the number of blacks.

[Bjorn Against]

67. The ones I have been to have been majority white

I live in Minnesota, while there is a fairly large black population in the Twin Cities it is still a predominantly white state. There have been a strong number of black participants at the Black Lives Matter protests, but it is still majority white participation. The Mall of America protest was roughly 70% white I would estimate, but I know the organizers were very glad to have us. We let the black people lead and try to make sure that their voices are heard the loudest, but in terms of sheer numbers there have been more white people at the protests I have been to. The black people I have talked to were actually very happy by that because it means a lot to them to have white people standing in solidarity with them.

[bettyellen]

68. Nope. No one said anything about the numbers supporting- just the urge to speak for POC as

And take over. What's with this inability to understand the difference to support and dominate?
It's pretty simple.

[YoungDemCA]

109. For too many white people, to "support" *is* to dominate

Sometimes, it's better and more enlightening to listen than to talk-especially on issues like racial discrimination and oppression of African-Americans and other minority groups (a reality of which even well-meaning liberal white people are too often, hopelessly ignorant).

In any particular movement for social justice, members of the oppressed group in question have every right to speak of their experiences; but, just as importantly, they also have the right to have their voices heard by those outside their community. In other words: white Americans should absolutely be a part of the solution to racism and discrimination, but they also must not-no, SHOULD NOT-be the ones dominating the discussion.

For, as we all are (hopefully) aware, African-Americans and other people of color have had to live for centuries under a white-dominated society-with horrendous and often-fatal consequences, with the anguish of countless black women and children, husbands and wives, fathers and mothers....facing the reality of racism, and figuring out how to live in a society and a country whose official and unofficial proclamations claim to provide freedom and equality, liberty and justice for all....but the actions of this country's dominant culture and its institutions of power and privilege, time and time again, betray those ideals in a cruel, vicious, and just plain unjust way.

Therefore, the least we can do, as well-meaning white people who see the racism and injustice, are angered and saddened and downright horrified by it, and desperately want to "do something about it" is to be a part of the discussions, part of the organizing, part of the activism-without taking on a dominant role. Otherwise, we'd be playing the role of paternalistic, condescending, "we are the ones who REALLY know what's best for you" white people all over again. If we (as in white people) end up dominating and managing and leading the effort against the closely linked evils of American racism and white supremacy....well, that would be a cruel irony indeed.

I reiterate: It's the least white anti-racists can do.

[Nye Bevan]

122. If you "listen and do not talk", you are silent. And "silence makes white people racist",

according to the OP. This is why some are getting the impression of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

[bettyellen]

187. Who said the only options are to lead or stay silent?

I do believe that's a total crock of shit.

[Jamastiene]

272. The trick is to listen before you talk and

listen enough to understand before you make judgments and open your mouth, no matter how long it takes you to understand. I have never seen any AA organizations get upset if a white person is supportive and wants to participate. If you listen to their experiences and what they are telling you, you learn a lot more than if you take an antagonistic approach and refuse to listen at all, like what you seem to be doing here in this thread. You make yourself into the antagonist by copping that attitude. Instead, try listening and being less argumentative, for crying out loud. At least try not to twist what they are saying to make it seem you are being put upon, when really that is you not understanding what is being said. It's not too hard to figure out once you stop and think about it.

[sheshe2]

285. Bravo! Well said, thank you Jamastiene.

[treestar]

258. the odd thing is there are more white people

so ideally, the movement for racial equality should have more white people than black.

I can see the point they should not take over but that need not be their reason for being so numerous. POC remain oppressed if white people are uniformly against equality, so it would be odd they should feel repressed if white people became uniformly for it. If they "took over" the movement, that it would because of that leave oppression remaining, it would be pretty depressing.

[Starry Messenger]

203. There are groups that are largely white that put themselves in front

If you go to these protests, it is obvious who is doing this and why.

They hijack social justice movements for their own agenda. They get defensive when you point out that amplifying their own message, being megaphone hogs, or otherwise being all "look at me" is not that helpful.

I could furnish numerous examples that I have witnessed personally. The Avakian people are particularly egregious.

[Tsiyu]

21. K&R

At work and it's stormy, so can't say a lot, but wanted to rec this piece.

[sheshe2]

57. Kick!

[DeSwiss]

62. K&R

''To sin by silence when we should protest, makes cowards out of men.'' ~Ella Wheeler Wilcox

[appalachiablue]

65. Trayvon Martin was targeted and pursued by predator Zimmerman. He was an innocent child & the loss

for family and country is our national shame. Eric Gardner's case and other crimes against blacks and minorities are the evil expression of our long legacy of racism, bigotry and violence which have intensified because of growing economic insecurity and ultraconservatism. I do not know the answer except to continue public objections, somehow pull together and remember 'there but for the grace of God go I.'

[mountain grammy]

69. End white silence. White silence is why racism continues..

do you think the white bankers knew what they were doing when they redlined neighborhoods?
do you think the white school boards knew what they were doing when they drew district boundries?
do you think employers know what they are doing when they discriminate in hiring?
Everyone at the bank, in the school districts and in human resources knows what's going on and this is just a tiny part of the daily persistent and historic racism in America, and too many white people are silent.

The killing of African Americans because of being black in any given situation is a result of a mistrust born of racism that's so deep and so ingrained, white people miss it. I'm still amazed at people like one on this thread who defends the jury in the Zimmerman case. The jury took the opportunity to give the benefit of the doubt, of which there was none, to the white guy, something almost never given to the black guy. That is racism.

[gwheezie]

110. Great post

I almost missed it

[YoungDemCA]

111. Very well said.

[Number23]

123. Thanks, grammy.

[Hekate]

72. KnR for the necessity of speaking out

[JEFF9K]

75. Why criticize people who don't agree with your assumptions?

[bravenak]

76. Are you here to discuss the issue or to discuss SheShe?

[Bjorn Against]

80. So should people stay silent and not speak out when they feel wronged?

Those who promote racist bullshit and try to defend the murders of unarmed black people deserve a whole lot more criticism than they receive.

[JEFF9K]

97. Extremely questionable reasoning, logic, and assumptions ...

will never be agreed with by everyone.

[Bjorn Against]

102. Which is why it is essential that we criticize the racists who lack reasoning and logic.

[sheshe2]

92. Excuse me?

Care to discuss the OP?

I said

Silence Makes White People Racist
Everything old is new again.

Past Present and Future

That is a criticism of you? This OP is about you? Hmmmm~

[JEFF9K]

99. You are kind of assuming that you are smarter than everyone else ...

when in fact, much of what you say doesn't make sense.

[Bjorn Against]

105. I think you are projecting.

[bravenak]

106. Me too.

[JEFF9K]

113. That makes ZERO sense.

[Bjorn Against]

116. I did not expect you would be able to understand, I think others can see it however.

[Feral Child]

305. Because you're not listening.

Why is that?

[sheshe2]

128. Yikes! Great come back~

You are kind of assuming that you are smarter than everyone else ...
when in fact, much of what you say doesn't make sense.

Maybe not to you. Keep reading, you might figure it out.

[ismnotwasm]

77. Yes, it does.

And I can already hear the loud, awkward denial.

[mopinko]

87. so glad i left the lily white burbs. i couldnt stand the small minds.

my family still thinks i am nuts to live in an integrated neighborhood, and especially to raise my kids here. i think they have the shoe on the wrong foot.
i am proud to speak out for justice. and ask anybody, i rarely keep my mouth shut.

and one thing i love about du is the melting pot that it is. i have learned much in my years hear about the rest of the world. it laps over into my real life, and especially gives me support that i am never alone in wanting a better world.

dont just speak out. scream.

[sheshe2]

100. This!

dont just speak out. scream.

Thank you mo!

[mopinko]

108. no prob she.

tho i have to say that the price is that a lot of people are afraid of me!
srsly. the guy running for alderman in my ward, with whom i have crossed swords, should have been knocking on my door over the bs that the current guy is giving me and my farm. i asked a mutual friend why he hadnt. she said, well, he is afraid of you. bwahaha.
when i repeated that to another mutual friend, he said, mo, a lot of people are.

but hey, i may not have a lot of friends, but i have the right ones. so.....

[sheshe2]

131. mo~

she said, well, he is afraid of you. bwahaha.
when i repeated that to another mutual friend, he said, mo, a lot of people are.

Lol~ I wish there were people scared of me. Good work.

but hey, i may not have a lot of friends, but i have the right ones. so.....

Gotta love you.

[ScreamingMeemie]

146. Thank goodness cool heads prevail here sometimes...(Jury results)

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Sat Jan 3, 2015, 09:33 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

so glad i left the lily white burbs. i couldnt stand the small minds.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6038159

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"So glad I left the lily white burbs" is bigoted. And what is wrong with living in integrated neighborhoods? Segregation ended several decades ago.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jan 3, 2015, 09:43 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: silly alert and waste of time
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The ALERTER is either a troll or an ASSHOLE. Admins, get this alerter out of here--mopinko said nothing wrong here and the alerter is deliberately misinterpreting his comments to cause trouble. A lot of 'burbs still ARE "lily white" and there are pockets of racism everywhere. I hope this is a seven - zip LEAVE IT. What the FUCK is wrong with people??? LEAVE.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see what the poster sees as wrong with living in an integrated neighborhood since he/she lives in one. I see his/her point, and I am rather shocked that you misread the post and got mad enough to alert on it. Yes, the suburbs are lily white. It's a fact (I live in one). That's not bigoted. That's demographics. There's a difference.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I totally don't get why this post is a problem.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Huh? At least one of us has a reading comprehension problem. I can't find anything objectionable or alertable about the post.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Literally the stupidest alert I've ever seen.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[JustAnotherGen]

249. I wonder if the wrong headed

Intruder will fess up? Most likely not.

[mopinko]

306. oy vey.

clearly misread it, i have to think.
sometimes the jurors are right on.

[Adrahil]

302. Here's what bothers me about this....

When I do speak out, I'm told I don't have a voice in this debate because I'm a white man. I should just support my black allies.

If I do not speak out, I'm told I'm racist because I didn't speak out.

It sure feels like a heads you win, tails I lose situation sometimes.

I just keep trying to do the best I can, and hope it helps.

[mopinko]

307. srsly? that has never happened to me.

i see that all over this thread, and it makes me scratch my head.
these days i think everyone but the black panthers would accept a solid supporter of justice and civil rights.

[Adrahil]

310. Yup. But like I said...

...I just try and contribute how I can.

[gwheezie]

93. I have hope because of the new leaders rising from these protests

They are doing a fine job. Let them lead us.
A while back I was talking to a young white fella and an old white fella. The discussion was about change in this country. Older guy thought we were going to lose something. Young guy thought we were going to gain something with change.
Young fella was looking forward to poc being the majority in his lifetime. He's a war vet. His take away from his 4 combat tours was tribal warfare is stupid. he's looking forward to a more inclusive country. It was pretty funny when he said so what if Spanish becomes our predominate language someday. I thought old fella was going to burst a vessel. Why are we white people so afraid of not being the majority. This is where we are headed. It's a good thing. I'm white. I'm not scared.

[davidn3600]

112. Apparently a damned if you do and damned if you dont situation

Some people were getting angry recently that the protests concerning Brown and Garner were "too white."

[elleng]

115. Silence doesn't make people racist,

their parents do.

Silence of the community, however, reinforces racism. When society recognizes racism is anti-social and takes actions to that effect, such as the Civil Rights Act and other, broad and individual day-to-day activities, racism's hold begins to diminish.

[YoungDemCA]

133. Unfortunately, a lot of the work of the 60s/70s racial and social justice movements has been undone

or at least, angrily pushed backed at, with the right-wing political and social "backlash" of white people (in cities, suburbs, and rural areas both North and South), the Southern Strategy of Nixon and the race-baiting of Republicans like Ronald Reagan and Lee Atwater, the escalation of police violence in the wake of the War on Drugs-a "war" that has created a "New Jim Crow"...the list goes on.

One of the more unfortunate changes in the wake of the Civil Rights Act and other legislation has been the fact that, while most white Americans will now publicly admit that racism is wrong, very few white Americans will admit to being racists or harboring racial prejudice and bias. Few whites are willing to admit that they-as individuals or as a group-have benefited from racism, or that racism is still a very serious issue throughout the country.

The election of Barack Obama, on the one hand, signaled a lot of real hope and optimism about the promise of racial justice in America. Yet, as soon as he was sworn in to the Presidency, much of white America declared that "Racism is Over". All of a sudden, many white racists stopped even pretending to give a damn about being sensitive to the views and feelings and experiences of black people and other people of color. They now had carte blanche to act like the bigoted racist jerks that they were all along.

It's not just silence that makes white people racist-it's silence while witnessing an onslaught of right-wing, racist hate and bigotry the extent of which the United States hasn't seen in a long time. MLK, Jr. had it right: "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

[elleng]

138. Yes.

[rbrnmw]

119. thanks for this thread sheshe2

and folks outta be ashamed coming on this thread and making it about themselves

[sheshe2]

287. Yet we knew they would rdrnmw.

They always do.

[rbrnmw]

299. yes they always do

it's still shameful

[juxtaposed]

126. STAND YOUR GROUND IS NOTHING MORE THAN LEGALIZED LYNCHING

I saw zimmmmermean spoaken here...

Back in the 80's the war on drugs had nothing to do with anything , but disenfranchise Black males for about 10 years...


rubber bullets on my ass, I will keep kicking that ball...

[Nye Bevan]

132. "Stand your ground" was not invoked in the Zimmerman case (nt)

[juxtaposed]

134. NO SHIT DO U FEEL IT SHOULD HAVE

[Bjorn Against]

135. It was invoked in the jury instructions

The instructions the jury was given were pulled directly from the Stand Your Ground law.

[YoungDemCA]

137. ....

K&R.

[F4lconF16]

150. Thanks for the article.

I think those that are making this complicated want it to be complicated. Shut up and listen when POC try to tell us something, and say something (and loudly!) when we can otherwise.

[WillyT]

153. Please Be Careful...

[sheshe2]

313. Why do I need to be carefulk WillyT?

[flvegan]

158. How is your OP, in and of itself, not racist?

And if you really want to talk about "evil" you won't. You will cower in the corner like the rest, a pathetic shell of what knows what "evil" is.

Cower away, poster.

[Kath1]

159. Well saifd and very important.

"Silence is what kills black boys that look like Trayvon Martin." That is the bottom line.

Thank you, she.

[chervilant]

168. Thanks so very much for this OP.

I was wrongfully terminated the Tuesday before Thanksgiving because I spoke out against the virulent racism spewed by my old boss, my new boss, my co-workers, and the owner of the company where I was employed. Right now, I'm working on the courage I'll need to address this in court, because I know that to do so will likely guarantee I will never again work in this tiny, racist town.

And, in case anyone has any doubts about just HOW racist are many the denizens of this tiny town: check out the newest racist billboard that just went up last week.

[MrScorpio]

177. Damn Skippy! nt

[sheshe2]

288. ...

[napkinz]

185. to be silent in the face of injustice is to be an accomplice (think Nazi Germany)

(And I can't believe there are still so many Zimmerman defenders here on DU.)

[Cha]

194. Mahalo for these vital truths from xojane, she.. exactly what Martin Luther King was saying all

these years ago.



One would think this would NOT be controversial on DU.. but here we are.

[Behind the Aegis]

196. Bigotry disguises itself in SO many ways, some get an easier pass.

Sometimes, it is right in front of someone's face.

BTW, I think you left out a word, "not", in your last sentence.

[Cha]

197. Thanks, BtA.. I had just changed it when I reread it before.. clicking on your post.

I hate it when I do that! Changes the whole meaning!

Yes, I'm sorry about the bigotry that you're talking about it.

[Behind the Aegis]

198. It happens! LOL!

It just shows the power of words! Adding one or losing one, and the entire meaning changes. It kind of demonstrates the point of the OP...when there are no words, it can say as much as when there are.

[Cha]

199. Yes, Indeed!

[sheshe2]

289. One might think it would not be controversial on DU, Cha.

Yet as you say, there you have it.

[mmonk]

200. While the liberal organizations and unfortunately

way too much silence from liberal white politicians, I have seen a glimmer of light in those involved in protests in the streets. What i don't like is the lack of recognition of what appears of backward steps.

[salin]

219. Arriving late to the conversation.. a thought to those posters feeling darned if they do or don't...

Like many have expressed, I have been horrified by the events that have led to the protests. And while not often stated - I want to be explicit in admitting that the extent and frequency of such lethal brutality unleashed in seconds has been shocking to me. That alone is part of the issue. Most of us white folks do not live with this reality. It is only now, for many of us, that the blinders have been lifted. And what we see is deeply dangerous and out of tune. To much of white America this is not a daily reality - and thus a vast majority of white America is either in denial in order to cognitively protect their vision of our society, or are simply untroubled by the reality of life under institutional and cultural racism.

I believe that there is a growing conscience - which is contributing to growing participation in the protests.

That said - the "dominate vs. silence" seems to be missing a big factor: participation does not mean leading/being the main voice. Indeed, that is *Patronizing* - hell, it's basically indicating/underscoring a sense of superiority as if People of Color need a white spokesperson to give voice to their grievances... which is stronger than the word patronizing connotes.

There is a large space between silence and dominating. It isn't binary.

Participating - showing up - following - standing shoulder to shoulder with one another is in that space between silence and domination.

Let the Voice of the moment/event be the voice of those for whom the reality of the lethal brutality is not new or vicarious. Let the dominant voice be she/he who can teach the rest of us about the realities of living under a system of institutionalized and cultural racism.

In our learning - let us, and our voices, be out of engaged outrage at the lack of humanity of such a system - and in support of change. I think that a big part of our role - is to help other white folks who haven't yet lifted the blinders off the eyes, begin to lift their blinders - and guide them to places/people/voices who can begin to teach the realities, and thus our voice becomes part of a growing chorus of dialogue and chants that keep burgeoning until institutional and cultural changes are inevitable. Indeed, I believe the protests that started in Ferguson and have spread throughout the country have begun to lift blinders off of many folks eyes. I believe our job is to be a part of the growing chorus that keeps keeps the conversations growing.

just my 2 cents.

[bravenak]

260. Awesome post.

[salin]

271. thanks...

I promise to work to be more vocal and more a part of the conversations.

In Peace,

salin

[Spazito]

225. Excellent OP!

Reading through this thread has been very interesting and has brought out some excellent posts as well as some defending the status quo re the law and white privilege.

[OneGrassRoot]

228. K&R and bookmarking to return later. n/t

[whatchamacallit]

237. I agree with this in part, but have a question

Does silence to the president's brown-people-killing-foreign-policy make black folks racist?

[Spazito]

248. What part of the OP do you agree with?

Is the drone program instituted as a racist program in your mind? Silence about the drone program equals the silence about racist programs and the inequality of the law re PoC?

[whatchamacallit]

252. I agree that silence in the face of any social injustice could be regarded as tacit complicity

The question is whether the silence is always racial in nature. Which is why I asked the question. It's not just the drone program (which I find criminal), it's also the estimated million men, women, and children who've been killed in these wars. The torture programs, some of which continue, and the tortures allowed to walk free... There's a lot of silence over this.

[Spazito]

255. In order to equate those killed in war to what the topic of the OP is...

you seem to believe the deaths of those killed in war are caused by racism or is your post an attempt to deflect the discussion from the subject of the OP in order to equate the President as practicing racism because of the war/s?

[whatchamacallit]

256. The OP makes the claim that white silence to injustice suffered by people of color is de facto racism

My question, which like it or not, is germane, asks if the same could be said about silence over other injustices. Everything else you're assuming is your creation.

[Spazito]

261. I disagree, it is not germane at all...

imo. Your post demands one must address what you perceive as an injustice or address none. Demands like this are, more often than not, an attempt to stifle the discussion of the subject matter in the OP.

Your first post singles out "black folks" re racism and silence as opposed to DUers in general, why is that? Do you believe only "black folks" are being silent re your issue? If not, don't you find your singling out only "black folks" in your post to be questionable, to say the least?

[whatchamacallit]

263. How is the OP's singling out

white people re racism different? What about "silent" Asians, Hispanics, Arabs? My focus was a response to the OP's focus, that's all.

For the record, I believe a lot of the silence from whites is racially motivated. I'm just curious how these blanket pronouncements hold up against other circumstances.

[Spazito]

264. Well, it might be best, then, to start your own OP on your issue...

as opposed to interjecting it into the subject of the OP, imo.

The subject of the OP is racism while yours seems to be the wars, very different subject matter.

I look forward to your OP re blanket pronouncements re the wars.

[whatchamacallit]

266. Maybe I should

but if addressing the OP with a hypothetical question is somehow trying to divert the thread, what is appropriate discourse? Recs and auto-agreement?

[Spazito]

267. A good start would have been to stick to the issue addressed by the OP instead...

of raising the issue of the wars which have nothing to do with the subject matter of the OP which is about racism.

[JustAnotherGen]

270. +100 n/t

[sheshe2]

291. Please answer this Op.

Then start your own.

[whatchamacallit]

292. Answer it?

It's not a question

[sheshe2]

293. So your silence is your answer?

[whatchamacallit]

295. I'm not silent about this

If my voice is welcome I will use it.

[JustAnotherGen]

253. Seriously?

Start your own thread.

That's not an attack. It's just telling an obvious truth.

That's where your mind is at.

Go fight that battle elsewhere.

[OneGrassRoot]

269. So much worthy of fleshing out here...

Last edited Sun Jan 4, 2015, 05:25 PM - Edit history (1)

As a white woman having been engaged in dialogue about racism and the flip side of that ugly coin, privilege, for 40 years, I've learned a few things that are common to my experience. I recognize my experience isn't universal though, so take it as you will:

1. "Far too many white liberals are racist by silence."

That sentence in the article is likely the lightning rod. I understand in the author's experience, the white liberals she's speaking of were defensive and combative in the discussions...not exactly silent.

But for the white liberals who truly remain silent in the face of what many clearly see as gross, obscene, blatant injustice, there is a big difference when confronting/accusing them about personal racist behavior versus getting them to acknowledge the SYSTEMIC racism.

Overt racist behavior is easier to prove and confront, although thanks to Limbaugh and Fox, even flat-out racists who proudly proclaimed it in years past now deny they are racist (since Obama's election). I have no problem calling out people I know well, and whom I know for a fact are hardcore racists. Subtle racism and privilege is much, much harder to prove on an individual basis and is usually an exercise in futility to try to tell someone they are racist.

Yet facts speak to systemic racism and oppression easily and clearly. Most reasonable people can get that.

I do agree that, once you're aware of the systemic injustice, to remain silent in the face of it is consent of that system...just as remaining silent when you're in the same room where bullying and abuse is taking place is implied consent of that abuse.

I understand why people may remain silent (fear), but I do stand by my view about silence in the face of systemic racism, once aware, is consent.

It may seem like a subtle difference, but it lands quite differently (personal attack versus focus on systems), and meaningful dialogue and changes in views often take place as a result of approaching the discussion that way.


2. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

That's a common observation, too, and I totally understand that.

I think it's important for white people who DO want to speak up but are afraid to perhaps keep this in mind:

-- Stand WITH PoC, don't speak FOR. (I have this on my wall: "You will always be white, so do something with the privilege you're given. Make room at the table, then step back. Your voice has been heard for a long time now; it is now time for those who have been silenced to speak.&quot

-- I can speak to privilege, which is something I have experienced, so I can work to try to raise awareness of that within the white community. I haven't experienced racism (but I sure have observed it, up close and personal, KKK style), so I won't speak of it as though I have walked in the shoes as a PoC, but I can easily speak to the systemic nature of it.

-- We have MANY ism issues to contend within the US (and globally) today, but I agree with PoC who understandably get upset when these protests start to drift away from the focus being purely on racism. Intersectionality may be fine to form alliances, but we need to focus. Personally, I believe racism is humanity's core wound, so that is definitely my focus.

-- It's not about white people alive today taking BLAME for slavery (because that always comes up, don'tcha know) or other oppression, but it IS about taking responsibility for any role we may play in perpetuating SYSTEMIC racism. It's insidious, both the systemic aspect and the implicit bias that affects most, if not all, people, of all skin colors.

I respectfully would like to add that many PoC I know have subconsciously, after generations of living within a racist society, taken on this same bias, believing that they are inferior in some way because that is still very much part of the daily environment in media, advertising, education, etc. The multigenerational damage of racism is extraordinary, and we have never had the safe space to discuss this in the US. All we hear is "it happened ages ago, get over it."

That's why I definitely advocate for a Truth & Reconciliation Commission.

And I think the same subconscious bias happens with many white people, especially politically aware liberals. I don't think they're lying when they say they don't hold racist views -- I think they truly don't realize it because it has become almost instinctual now considering how entrenched it has been in all of our institutions since the founding of this country.

Given how many people are now struggling financially, the last bastion of this argument about the effects of systemic racism seems to be with white people who are embattled economically and feel they have zero privilege. They really get pissed when I try to firmly but gently point out that they do have an advantage over PoC in a similar economic position.


It's about the system. Yet I also believe a cultural transformation is necessary before any systemic change can happen. It is THAT entrenched and deep with many people, of all skin colors, and truly don't even realize it, imho. We're not exactly the most self-aware society, and as I said above, we haven't had the safe space to really, really talk all of this out as communities. Dialogue, back and forth...listening.

Racism in the US is like a boil that has been festering under the skin since the Civil Rights Movement...as that certainly didn't heal the boil, it just pushed it beneath the skin. Well, the pus is oozing out now, which I happen to think is good. It needs air and sunlight, not silence and apathy, even if we're afraid and uncomfortable. That's the only way to truly heal it.

Time is of the essence. People are dying every day as a direct result of racism, both systemic and personal manifestations of it.

[gwheezie]

273. Thought provoking

Racism was the law of the land in my lifetime in a very obvious way. There are older black and white neighbors where I live that are illiterate because the law shut down the schools here. In my lifetime.
Currently I see so many young black people who haven't even reached adulthood yet and are burdened with criminal records that are targeting black people.
This isn't history.

[Behind the Aegis]

296. Take note which two groups (not just white, BTW) DID respond.

Even if not to the author's liking.

The actual release from the ADL:

We have great faith in America’s jury system and do not question the verdict in the Zimmerman case.

However, this case raises serious questions about the wisdom of stand-your-ground laws and the easy access to concealed weapons permits in states like Florida, where more than one million permits have been issued since 1987 when the state’s concealed weapons law went into effect. Had neither been in place, this tragedy may never have occurred.

There are serious, unresolved issues of race in our country, and this trial underscored the need to explore these issues more fully. Hopefully, the debate concerning the justice of the verdict in the Zimmerman case will inspire a continued much-needed discussion about the lingering impact of racism in society.

Read more: http://www.jta.org/2013/07/15/news-opinion/the-telegraph/trayvon-martin-adl-reacts#ixzz3NvZs7Hv3

[sheshe2]

308. thank you bta for the full script from adl.

There are serious, unresolved issues of race in our country, and this trial underscored the need to explore these issues more fully. Hopefully, the debate concerning the justice of the verdict in the Zimmerman case will inspire a continued much-needed discussion about the lingering impact of racism in society.

sigh. we need a discussion about race, ethnicity, bias, homophobia, misogyny ....we need it all and we need to do it together. the hate will be our ultimate destruction. the conversations need to begin we need to share thoughts and ideas with one another. if we do we, will become strong. no one can do this alone.

never was it my intention to blame adl. i do the best that i can and it may not always be right.

[Feral Child]

304. Please see my Post #303

I think that says all that really needs to be said to these self-described liberal/progressives, both those that twist themselves into knots to justify murder and those that sanction it by their silence.

Zimmerman is a scared little man, terrified because he knew he was just ordinary. He desperately wanted to be "special" but was just another face in the crowd, living day by day without being noticed.

He hunted, stalked and killed a young man, hoping for recognition. His remarks since murdering Trayvon have shown that he actually believes that he will be feared and respected because he's a killer.

He's just as pathetic and frightened now as he was before becoming a murderer. He didn't get enough of the attention he craves, so he'll destroy another life soon in his vain attempt to validate his own.

His "fans" are exactly the same, living vicariously through his shameful fame, filling the empty hours with fantasies of achieving that same hollow "specialness" but mostly too afraid that public revulsion will prevent them from getting away with it.



Our self-styled liberal/progressives that defend his aquital are just lesser versions. They consider themselves "better" than racists because they have a patronizing faux-concern for lesser beings. The inner workings of their brains are just as devious, self-deceptive, and frightened as Zimmerman, they just have a different fantasy, that of the "loving parent", seeking to justify his murder through "tough love"; he brought it on himself.

Those that remain silent are muzzled by their own feelings of inadequacy, on the one hand they think Martin's death was wrong, on the other they can't bring themselves to declare him an equal, so they stay out of the fight and wait obstinately to for it go away so they can go back to declaring one abstract political theory within the realm of Liberal thought as better/worse than the others. They refuse to accept the excruciating emotions of commitment because they're vacuous, empty souls.

Trayvon Martin was a human being, no greater nor lesser than any of us. He was sometimes good, sometimes bad. I ache for the senseless loss and endure a seething, impotent rage over the injustice.

I wouldn't have it any other way. Trayvon's death was wrong; acceptance of it, either by a sterile dissection of the trial or by pretending it didn't happen would lessen me as a human being, and I will not cower.

[sheshe2]

309. I read that!

Thank you FC. You are correct.

This post breaks my heart because sadly what you said will indeed happen. GZ will feel the need to prove himself important once again. He is a time bomb ticking away, that has been proven with the confrontations with his girlfriend. He has to prove he is significant to the order of things, a manly man after all.

He wants us to look at him. SEE ME! SEE ME! ME!

Interesting, that you said this.

pretending it didn't happen would lessen me as a human being, and I will not cower.

Read this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026037707#post158

Give it a moment to link to the comment. It was alerted on more than once. It has been sent to the admins.

[Feral Child]

312. WOW!

That was a major contribution to the discussion. Makes you wish for more silent white people.

Lots of posts and a vegan. Must be a Liberal.

[Petrushka]

311. Bookmarked for later.