FRONTLINE: Gunned Down: The Power of the NRA (January 6th)

[Triana]

Trailer:

How the NRA keeps winning. On Jan. 6, FRONTLINE's "Gunned Down: The Power of the NRA" goes inside the politics of America's gun debate. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gunned-down/

[NYC_SKP]

1. How they win? Well, it doesn't help that so many gun control attempts are lame and vacuous.

I hate the NRA and their tactics, and I hate that they support politicians who also support bigotry and oppression.

But, when their opponents try to push empty measures instead of tackling real causes of violence, then their task is that much simpler.

Violence, fear, and despair are the roots of gun violence, of all violence.

Where are the measures that seek to address those?

[lark]

7. Agree with your root causes of violence.

Disagree that gun violence isn't separate. Without guns, people can only kill just kill 1-2 at a time, guns make mass murderers possible. Yes, we need to provide much better controls of guns by sealing off the gunshow and private owner loopholes so people with mental issues can't get guns - that's addressing a root cause. However, that would only prevent a few murders. Stop allowing large capacity magazines, stop allowing cop killer bullets, end stand your ground (just a recipe on how white males can get off scott free from murder) and the number of deaths decrease. All of these things have been proposed and voted down and how many people have died that wouldn't have if these had been passed?

I also believe cops should be prosecuted for the senseless murders of unarmed people. That too would be very helpful for our society. Right now, it's cops I fear the most.

[NYC_SKP]

12. I'm all for tightening up distribution laws and stricter penalties.

No doubt that tightening up availability will help matters, but that's just a small part of it and many seem to reject that idea and think that removing guns is all we need to do and go so far as to want to repeal the second amendment.

[Marengo]

15. Define "cop killer bullet" N/T

[sweetapogee]

21. I would like to know

the answer to that question also.

But on another front, it seems to me that a true progressive position on firearms would be the opposite of what many here desire. If we had truly liberal gun laws, there would be few restrictions on gun ownership. Just saying...

[Duckhunter935]

27. very good question

and how would you collect up the billions of "high" capacity magazines? By the way what is high capacity and who gets to decide?

Tighten up background checks, ensure data is in the system and correct, prosecute harshly existing laws and heavily improve mental health treatment and prescribed drugs.

[backwoodsbob]

19. stand your ground is a recipe for white male murder?

so what happens if someone tries to break into my house by kicking in the door?

Open the door and invite them to take everything I own?

[lark]

25. Wait until they are 1 step in the house

then do what's needed. Too many drunk kids are killed for knocking on the wrong door and nothing harmful is meant at all, but they are killed and if the killer is a white male, they get off scott free. Minorities and women would go to jail if they took that same exact action in the same exact situation.

[kioa]

20. 9/11, OKC bombing, Happy Land Fire.

All had higher death tolls than any mass murder committed with a gun.

[lark]

24. So, the point is that gun killings are OK

because bombs kill more people than guns? Why not try to prevent both types of mass murders?

[kioa]

32. My point is that you claimed something that was blatantly wrong.

This statement:

"Without guns, people can only kill just kill 1-2 at a time, guns make mass murderers possible."

is demonstaitably wrong.

Not only is mass murders possible without a gun--the 3 largest mass murders in American history were all perpetrated without any guns.

That's a very glaring mistake.

[lark]

35. You have a (small) point

I should have said guns make mass murders easy! Bombs take more planning, more knowledge to make and utilize them effectively. Guns just need to be loaded. We've had 3 mass murders in American history without guns, but dozens of gun massacres - as I'm sure you know.

[kioa]

36. So does gasoline. Which is what was used in the Happy Land Fire.

A mass murder that was planned and perpetrated by someone blackout drunk and killed more people than any mass killing using a gun.

We've had more than just three mass killings without guns, in addition to the three deadliest mass killings in the US (none of which involved a gun) there is the largest school killing didn't use a gun (Bath School disaster), Bellevue massacre, Gulliver's nightclub fire, Hartford Circus Fire, LaGuardia Airport bombing, Boston Marathon Bombing, Villisca Axe Murders.....and many more mass killings where guns weren't used.

[metalbot]

22. Before we pass some MORE gun laws, why not prosecute the ones we have?

Many gun control groups, as well as the federal government, make a big deal about the success of the NICS background check, pointing to the number of people it has stopped from buying guns. In 2010, NICS prevented 34,459 felons from purchasing guns. That's a great outcome, sort of. In order to even do a NICS check, you need to fill out a form in which you swear under penalty of perjury that you aren't a felon. However, we only prosecuted 44 people for lying on the NICS form. Why not prosecute more felons who are trying to buy guns? If you were given a choice of banning high capacity magazines or imprisoning 30k+ felons who wanted a gun so bad they'd commit a federal felony to try and get one, which do you think would likely prevent more fatalities?

Get the prosecution rate up to something that isn't in the tenths of a percentage, and I'd be much more open to considering new gun control laws.

[project_bluebook]

14. I dislike the NRA because they sleep with the enemy

but there are gun laws that do go too far, like here in MI. bb pistols need a pistol permit, black powder guns were also treated like firearms and needed FFL. That law was changed in 04 by a Dem gov so they now are exempt along with pre-1898 antiques. BB pistols are still a no no.

[Arkansas Granny]

2. Thanks for the heads up. Frontline documentaries are some of the best I've seen.

They really do their research and cover a topic in depth.

[chervilant]

3. This will be a good birthday present... n/t

[randys1]

4. So many of us have come to accept that we have more guns per capita than anywhere on the

planet, but we shouldnt, we should see that as a severe mental illness problem.

We will ALWAYS have economic and social problems that can lead to violence, removing the guns from those situations would greatly reduce the death and destruction, that is just a fact.

[hack89]

5. Imagine how much suffering would be eliminated if we also removed alcohol from those situations

Crime, chronic illness, suicide, domestic violence, child abuse - alcohol plays a huge role in all of those.

[randys1]

11. Yes, but in ALL of those cases, if there is NO gun, the death and destruction will be less almost

all the time.

Our position in this country on guns is absurd.

If the human race is allowed to evolve much longer, if we dont kill ourselves with climate change, we WILL evolve eventually to where guns are as common as cassette players.

Wait, 8 track players sounds better there...i used to love mine

[hack89]

13. But alcohol CREATES violent, abusive, suicidal people

Guns don't. Why not severely limit alcohol as a root cause of social ills?

Gun violence has been steadily declining for 20 years. We are on the right track.

[LanternWaste]

28. First, check the countries with the highest per capita consumption of alcohol.

"Why not severely limit alcohol as a root cause of social ills?"

First, check the countries with the highest per capita consumption of alcohol.
Secondly, illustrate the objective and sourced data correlating the root of social violence (another unsourced premise-- indeed, merely an editorial on your part-- at best) in those countries to the consumption of alcohol.
Finally, rationalize the data discrepancies to validate your bias...

[hack89]

30. Sure, as soon as the same is done for guns. nt

[Duckhunter935]

29. not to mention

all of those drunk drivers on the road killing people, but I guess some lives are better than others.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. Millions of women are beaten every night by drunken, umarmed partners.

[NYC_SKP]

6. No, we don't have to "ALWAYS have economic and social problems that can lead to violence".

Give up on solving these and we may as well just shoot ourselves.

NGU.

[randys1]

10. Point is human beings will always be at each other for something, dont you agree?

And if we are violent to some extent by our nature, arming ourselves to the teeth makes that worse, right?

We can evolve to be far less violent, yes, but we are human beings, we will always have some larceny in our hearts.

I have no desire to get into an argument especially with you, I do understand many democrats want their guns or support gun ownership, many are my friends.

It is an emotional subject, but it shouldnt be.

We have to work together for the greater good, but I suspect some will always defend gun ownership and some like me will always state my rant about how the 2nd amendment should be interpreted etc.

As a democrat I have to learn to play well with others like religious folk and gun folk

[kioa]

18. Prohibition doesn't have the best track record.

I live in an area where many people own guns.
I can assure you it is neither scary nor a sign of mental illness.

Get out more.
Learn something.

[aikoaiko]

8. Going to set the DVR now.

I'm sure Frontline will deliver something that will rile up both sides.

[etherealtruth]

9. Should be interesting

It will be very interesting to see how and why a gun skill and safety group morphed into a very strong right wing propaganda and lobbying group.

[Archae]

16. Most of it can be traced to one guy.

The late Harlan Carter.
He was a murderer, he shot and killed a Mexican boy he said was attacking him.

He led the takeover of the NRA, making it the gun sales whores they are now.

[etherealtruth]

17. It will be interesting n/t

[hack89]

26. The 1994 AWB played a big role

It took gun owners by surprise and made it clear that gun rights had to be protected at the state level which in turn led to a huge increase in the NRA 's political arm.

[JimDandy]

31. And yet, the NRA decries state legislation

of guns, especially by popular vote...i.e. citizens initiatives...and screams that gun laws must be handled by national legislation instead. Case in point: WA State's recently passed statewide citizens initiatives controlling gun sales.

Meh...for all their 'drum up political support at the state level to protect gun rights' strategy, they frequently lose ground, and control, when their gun rights 'talking points' actually are put to a state-level public vote.

People know that rights must be tempered with controls.

[hack89]

33. You might have a point

Once we get to the point where the gun control movement regains all the ground it has lost in the past 20 years.

You have to look no further than the huge expansion in the number of states that have legalized concealed carry since 1994 to see how successful they have been organizing at the state level. They don't lose many at the state level.

[hack89]

34. Their strategy is twofold

One is the expansion of gun rights at the state level - the expansion of concealed carry being the best example. To protect those rights they want uniform laws at the state and federal level regulating eligibility and background checks so gun owners don't get caught up in a patchwork of conflicting laws whereby going from one town to the next turns a legal gun owner into a felon. The NRA is the reason nearly every state has preemption laws where local laws cannot override state law