A DU thread from 2004 about George Herbert Walker Bush.

[grasswire]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x994545

A snapshot into what we here were saying then.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

1. Fascinating, remarkable correlation with Bush one and McCain...

Bush of course more money having been the traitors they are or their grandpa was, but McCain killed a bunch of people on the Forestall didnt he?


McCain daddy was an admiral, thus some money but tons of power in the navy, etc.

[EX500rider]

12. "but McCain killed a bunch of people on the Forestall didnt he?" No, he did not.

At about 10:50 (local time) on 29 July, while preparations for the second strike of the day were being made, an unguided 5.0 in (127.0 mm) Mk-32 "Zuni" rocket, one of four contained in an LAU-10 underwing rocket pod mounted on an F-4B Phantom II (believed to be aircraft No. 110 from VF-11), accidentally fired due to an electrical power surge during the switch from external to internal power. The surge, and a missing rocket safety pin, which would have prevented the fail surge, as well as a decision to plug in the "pigtail" system early to increase the number of takeoffs from the carrier, allowed the rocket to launch.
The impact of the rocket had also dislodged two of the 1000-lb AN-M65 bombs, which fell to the deck, and lay in the pool of burning fuel between White's aircraft and that of Lieutenant Commander John McCain. Damage Control Team No. 8 swung into action immediately, and Chief Gerald Farrier, recognizing the risk, and without the benefit of protective clothing, immediately smothered the bombs with a PKP fire extinguisher in an effort to knock down the fuel fire long enough to allow the pilots to escape. The pilots, still strapped into their aircraft, were immediately aware that a disaster was unfolding, but only some were able to escape in time. McCain, pilot of A-4 Skyhawk side No. 416, next to White's, was among the first to notice the flames, and escaped by scrambling down the nose of his A-4 and jumping off the refueling probe shortly before the explosions began.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire

[GGJohn]

16. How did McCain kill a bunch of sailors on the U.S.S. Forrestal?

Last edited Wed Dec 24, 2014, 10:51 PM - Edit history (1)

How was McCain responsible for the power surge?

[Jim Lane]

37. There were some allegations, mostly based on speculation IIRC

Put on your tinfoil hat and believe that the Navy would be willing to cover up the truth to protect a guy whose father and grandfather were both admirals. Add in the fact that McCain was in his plane when the fire started. The speculation is that he and another pilot were horsing around, gunning their engines or some such, and that that's how the fire started.

The part about the Navy being willing to cover up to protect McCain is plausible to me, but it doesn't prove that any cover-up was necessary in this instance. I think it highly likely that McCain really was just an innocent bystander.

That distinguishes the Forrestal fire from three earlier instances in which McCain was at fault:

* 1960: McCain crashed a Skyraider into Corpus Christi Bay.

The 23-year-old junior lieutenant wasn't paying attention and erred in using "a power setting too low to maintain level flight in a turn," investigators concluded.

* 1961:

McCain was "clowning" around in a Skyraider over southern Spain about December 1961 and flew into electrical wires, causing a blackout....

* 1965:

McCain crashed a T-2 trainer jet in Virginia.

All quotations are from a Los Angeles Times article, "McCain's mishaps in the cockpit".

[GGJohn]

42. That all may be true, but that doesn't prove that he was responsible for the accident

or deaths that day.

[Jim Lane]

51. That's why I wrote that it was "highly likely that McCain really was just an innocent bystander." NT

[GGJohn]

53. You did write that and I totally missed it.

My apologies and Happy Holidays to you and your family.

[Jim Lane]

55. Thanks for the explanation. Your post confused me because I didn't see where we disagreed.

Happy holidays to you and yours, too!

Now, if you'll excuse me, one member of my family is on my lap, letting me know that it's been too long since he was scratched behind the ears....

[GGJohn]

56. Give your pet a good scratch for me also.

[cherokeeprogressive]

54. Not this fucking idiotic bullshit again...

Anyone who spouts this idiotic bullshit is someone who's never spent a MINUTE on a flight deck during flight ops.

134 men dead and 161 more injured. When people like you make statements like this: "McCain killed a bunch of people on the Forestall didn't he?" you denigrate their memory, and you don't even know enough to spell the name of the ship correctly. It was the USS Forrestal.

I couldn't give a fuck about McCain the politician, but will defend McCain the aviator all day long against idiotic statements made by people who, had they ever spent a minute on a flight deck during flight ops, would fucking know better than to make claims like "McCain killed a bunch of people on the Forestall".

[Puglover]

2. I was thinking about the whole family

this morning. (At least the one's I am aware of.) Collectively they have brought so much misery into this world. Most for their own gain.

Useless bags of skin. If they didn't exist our country would be a much better place.

That is the kindest thing I can come up with for this vile clan.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. I wasn't personally around Chichi Jima that day in 1944...

...but the story, whatever version you may believe, was about a 20 year old pilot whose aircraft was damaged by ground fire. How this 20 year old behaved that day has no relevance to his actions beyond that particular conflict. None.

If you want to question him for his involvement w/ the CIA during such things as Bay of Pigs, the Assassinations of JFK/RFK, Vietnam, etc, THAT'S fair game. But to criticize him for his reaction to a grave incident when he was 20 (during a very confusing conflict) is not appropriate.

[A Simple Game]

4. As with all Republicans, it's not so much what he did wrong, it's the cover-up. n/t

[heaven05]

6. Keeping ones head in a conflict/crisis

shows true leadership quality. This sham hero lacked that very important leadership quality. Those men depended on him and he said to hell with them. NO EXCUSES!!!!!! DAMN......!!!!! Has every relevance to his leadership ability. Period.

[Cooley Hurd]

8. Age is a factor.

[heaven05]

9. for some

along with courage......

[Cooley Hurd]

10. ...and courage should be judged by age

[heaven05]

11. I knew one like bush sr

while serving in Vietnam. All bluster and bravado until I found him in the bunker whining for his momma when we got hit hard. I had to force that person to the berm. Yeah I can be a judge of men and bush sr. was/is no leader. Period. I wouldn't have wanted him covering my back.

[EX500rider]

14. How do you figure?

His aircraft was hit by ground fire, caught on fire, he finished the bombing run anyway and dropped on target, headed out to sea and he and one of his crew bailed out, the other crew member did not bail, most likely dead or wounded from the AAA fire, the crew member who did bail out with him had a parachute malfunction. Since the pilots station in a Grumman Avenger does not connect to the other crew stations there is zero he could do to help a wounded crew member exit the plane.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush#World_War_II

[heaven05]

15. yeah, yeah yeah

yeah, yeah, yeah. Excuses. HE'S NO HERO!!!!!! Period.

[GGJohn]

17. Yeah, he is.

He acted heroically that day, despite his aircraft taking AA fire, he still completed his mission!!!!!! Period.

And what fucking excuses did Ex500rider give?

[heaven05]

18. No he isn't

period. He is your hero, NOT MINE. Period.

[GGJohn]

20. Yeah, he is.

And he's not my hero, he's an American war hero. PERIOD.

[heaven05]

22. No he isn't

and a lot of amerikas heroes are always suspect and in this case especially with the stories told by the pilots who knew the real deal about this 'hero'. I don't care if he's your hero or amerikas hero, you can have him. He's zero in my book. ANY bush is suspect in my book. Period. on edit...Martin Luther King is an american hero...he stood in the fire against a racist nation and was shot down and killed by one of those racist dogs at the behest of who knows who. That's a real hero. Not these ersatz.... bush heroes.

[GGJohn]

23. Sorry, but America, not amerikas, disagrees with you.

[heaven05]

29. yeah and a large

percentage of amerikkkans believed in wilsonthepigs story. You've made no point at all. America can have it's false heroes, I could care less. My heroes are the ones who stood and are standing against the hypocrisy of this democracy. Like I have said you're entitled to your heroes, he is NOT one in my book. That's all that matters. Period. That privileged hero you're touting, had nothing to do with my heroes. He basked in the glory of his falsehood and you are entitled to him.

[GGJohn]

31. Sounds like some envy coming from you.

Again, it's Americans, not amerikkkans.
Is your auto correct not working?

[heaven05]

48. again

most of the privileged of this country follow the amerikkkan crowd. wilsonthepig showed me that, the election of Nov4, 2014 proved that and the continuing slaughter of young people of color, both children and teen and the killing of black women by amerikkkans hiding under a uniform and behind a badge proves that. Don't need no stinking auto correct. You CANNOT tell me how to perceive the racism I see displayed by the privileged of amerikkka every day. I'm in a market, the black woman pulls out her food stamp card, the clerk is an asshole, the white person pulls out their card and it's still all smiles and wonderfulness. I've experienced that. So no, you CANNOT tell me how to perceive anything. Period

[GGJohn]

49. Wow dude, you really went of the rails with this one.

This thread isn't about Wilson, racism, it's about Bush Sr. and his wartime service.
Do try to stay on topic.
BTW, you need to fix your auto correct, it keeps spelling American wrong.

[heaven05]

64. Wow

dude it all connects, always has, always will in amerikkka. Understand that, dude. Your hero is not a hero. Never was, never will be, dude. Your remarks are that control issue syndrome that the privileged can't help but pull out of their bag of tricks. I laugh at you, loudly. I'm also done with you. Auto correct is fine, dude. I mean to spell how I spell amerikkka. Is that clear enough for even you to understand? geez, I sure do hope so. You've spilled a lot all over yourself during this thread. Thank you for proving my point time and again., I don't have to waste anymore time with you and your 'heroes'. Clay feet

[EX500rider]

19. Sounds like the US Navy disagrees with you...

Through 1944, he flew 58 combat missions for which he received the Distinguished Flying Cross, three Air Medals, and the Presidential Unit Citation awarded to San Jacinto.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush#World_War_II

[GGJohn]

21. Jeez, I have never seen such anger from one person as I see from that dude.

[heaven05]

26. sure

he was connected enough to merit that type of false recognition. I've seen people rewarded like that who were yellow belly cowards. Not angry, just sick of the BS from people following the crowd. Angry black? There is a typical description always used as an excuse for not being able to deal with someone who WILL NOT let people of privilege tell him how he should think, my reality IS based on historical and current FACT about this country and it's "heroes" ......

[EX500rider]

27. "that type of false recognition"

He either flew 58 combat missions in WWII or he didn't, are you saying he didn't?

[heaven05]

30. It's a distinct possibility

he didn't. Hell I don't know who he knew in his unit. Dressed up records are easy. You believe any pablum fed to you your right. I stopped believing in your type of hero long ago.

[EX500rider]

34. "It's a distinct possibility he didn't."

I suppose in your mind is is.

"my type of hero" Where did I call him a hero? Sounds like he was a competent pilot who did his job.

[GGJohn]

35. I'm guessing that you can't provide a link proving that

it's a distinct possibly that he didn't earn those medals during his war time service?

[heaven05]

38. geez

you're a real laugh. I know how military records can be doctored, that's al I need to knowl. I don't need no stinking link. I don't EVER have to prove anything to the I need a hero crowd. I've seen it done for the 'connected' and just look at this heroes son, gwb. He was awol, drunkard and on who knows what other kind of controlled substance flying planes, but when Dan Rather mentioned it, he was fired. And it was TRUE what he revealed. Please you can keep your heroes, you are welcome to them. NO thanks!

[GGJohn]

41. I was in the Army for over 40 years dude, it's not as easy as you think.

[heaven05]

43. It's easier than

Last edited Thu Dec 25, 2014, 09:36 AM - Edit history (1)

you are leading people to believe, dude. I was in the army too. I knew a lot of clerks and that's where it starts. Please, your bonifids are not impressive. My family has a rich tradition of military service to this country all the way back into the the vicious racist days.... My father was in for just as long as you, I know how things 'work' also.

[Major Nikon]

33. There wasn't "zero he could do"

He could have continued to fly the plane to give the crewmembers more time to bail out. He could have made more attempts to warn his crew that he was bailing out. He could have also made a water landing. An eyewitness account (just as believable as Bush's) claims his plane wasn't on fire and Bush obviously panicked, supported by the account in the 2004 OP.

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-08-13/news/mn-194_1_bush-spokesman

The part everyone seems to forget is that Bush was the pilot of an aircraft with several crewmembers and as such had a moral, ethical, and military obligation to do everything he could to protect his crew, which includes at least attempting a water landing which Bush clearly did not. Even if his plane actually was on fire as he claimed, there are actions he could have performed to attempt to put out the fire and even by his own account he did not even attempt them. Bush was no hero on that day. Quite the opposite.

[GGJohn]

36. He was a pilot with 2 other crew members, 1 got out and had a parachute malfunction,

and the other one was either injured or dead from the AA hits.
It's easy to second guess him decades later, but you, nor I were in that aircraft that day, we don't know the flyability of the aircraft at the time him and the other crew member bailed out, the aircraft was probably becoming unflyable at that point and they got out while there was still time.

[heaven05]

39. it's also easy to make a non hero

a hero decades later. He probably, he may have....right...I've had a real good time with you hero worshipers but I need to move on to more important endeavors. Have fun in your worship.....

[GGJohn]

40. US Navy thinks so.

You sound.......envious.

[Major Nikon]

46. You are speculating about things even Bush did not claim

Even Bush questioned himself as to whether he gave his crew enough time to bail out.

“It still plagues me if I gave those guys enough time to get out,”
-- HW Bush

It's also easy to take Bush's own account at face value. He could have been court martialed for failing to protect his crew. He had a reason to lie then, and a continued reason to lie because of his political career.

It's a little harder to examine the actual facts and question Bush's version of events, which changed over time. After the crash, Bush wrote to his parents saying he didn't know what happened to his crew before he bailed out. Decades later he told and interviewer he saw one of the crewmembers had been machine gunned to death. So there's no question Poppy lied about it.

Bush never claimed the plane was unflyable so where you get "the aircraft was probably becoming unflyable at that point" is nothing better than an uneducated guess on your part. Bush claimed his engine was on fire. There are no control surfaces involved and no control cables which run through the engine compartment. There's a checklist of items Bush could have attempted even if his plane was on fire (which is directly contradicted by the turret gunner of the plane in front of him). As a Naval aviator he would have been required to memorize that checklist.

[GGJohn]

47. Every pilot second guesses themselves when they lose a crewmember.

When my chopper was shot down in Vietnam and my gunner was killed, to this day I still ask myself if there was more I could've done to save him and I reach the same conclusion every time, no, the chopper was too badly shot up to maintain flight.

As far as on fire, several of the aircraft that were in that flight that day do say there was smoke coming from the aircraft.
But, regardless, he served his country during a most trying period in our history and I won't criticize him for his war time service.
Now, that said, I will heavily condemn him as the CIA director and President.

[Major Nikon]

50. He wasn't just second guessed, he lied about it

He gave two different versions of the event and rode the more heroic one to his political advantage. Don't criticize him if you don't want, but you certainly shouldn't make stuff up to defend him when his story is certainly questionable.

"smoke coming from the aircraft" doesn't mean the plane is on fire. You should know that. The best eyewitness, who was known to be there at the time and had no reason to lie about it, contradicts Bush's story.

[GGJohn]

52. Smoke coming out of the aircraft meant that there was damage, possibly catastrophic damage.

When my chopper was hit, there was no fire, no smoke, but there was catastrophic damage to the tail and rotor which made it no longer flight worthy.
Sorry, I'm not going to second guess a pilot that was there and had to make the decision to bail out.

As far as the witness contradicting Bush Sr. story, the rest of the squadron contradicts the eyewitness account.

[Major Nikon]

58. You've seen "the rest of the squadron('s)" contradiction?

A member of Bush's squadron was interviewed by the press:

Gunner Lawrence Mueller of Milwaukee, another former member of Bush’s squadron who flew on the Chichi Jima mission, when asked who would have had the best view, replied: “The turret gunner of Melvin’s plane.”

Melvin was the commander. Mierzejewski was his turret gunner.

Gunner Lawrence Mueller tended to corroborate Mierzejewki’s account. Mueller had kept a log book of his own in which he made notations as the squadron was debriefed in the ready room after each mission. For September 2, 1944, Mueller’s personal log had the following entry: “White and Delaney presumed to have gone down with plane.” Mueller told the New York Post that “no parachute was sighted except Bush’s when the plane went down.” The New York Post reporters were specific that according to Mueller, no one in the San Jacinto ready room during the debriefing had said anything about a fire on board Bush’s plane. Mueller said: “I would have put it in my logbook if I had heard it.”

Another witness said Bush never mentioned a fire once he was aboard the submarine.

According to this New York Post article, the report of Bush’s debriefing aboard the submarine Finnback after his rescue makes no mention of any fire aboard the plane. When the New York Post reporters interviewed Thomas R. Keene, an airman from another carrier who had been picked up by the Finnback a few days after Bush, and referred to the alleged fire on board Bush’s plane, “Keene was surprised to hear” it. “‘Did he say that?,” Keene asked.

The smoke and possible catastrophic damage was reported by Mierzejewski as "a puff of smoke that quickly dissipated". Nobody but Bush reported that his plane was on fire and even he didn't report that initially.

[GGJohn]

59. I leave you with this.

A report signed by the squadron commander and an intelligence officer on the loss of the plane says ''smoke and flame'' engulfed the engine, according to The Post. The Post said other squadron members disagreed about whether Mr. Mierzejewski would have had the best line of sight on the Bush plane.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/13/us/gunner-in-squadron-disputes-bush-on-downing-of-bomber.html

Only one member of the squadron disputes Bush Sr.'s account of that day, don't forget that even after hit, he still completed his bombing run and managed to pilot the crippled aircraft out over the sea to avoid having to bail out over the Japanese occupied Island known for their brutality.

How many other sqauadron members disputed Bush Sr.'s account of the mission that day?

You want to believe this one squadron member because it would fit your view of Bush Sr., but he obviously was a competent and capable pilot as he flew 58 combat missions during WWII and I won't disparage his service.

What he did later in life as the CIA director and President I will heavily criticize.

[Major Nikon]

60. So, "the rest of the squadron contradicts the eyewitness account"...

becomes, "other squadron members disagreed about whether Mr. Mierzejewski would have had the best line of sight on the Bush plane."

Those "other squadron members" also said Mierzejewski would have been too busy shooting at enemy aircraft to see Bush's plane. The problem was there were no reports of enemy aircraft on that mission. In fact, Bush allowed White (who was unqualified) to substitute for his normal turret gunner because they knew there would be no enemy aircraft that day.

So not exactly the same thing as "the rest of the squadron" contradicting Mierzejewski. Regardless, nobody disputes that Mierzejewski was flying turret gunner in the plane directly ahead of Bush, so it's hard to imagine who would have had a better view.

How many other sqauadron members disputed Bush Sr.'s account of the mission that day?

How many independently verified Bush's plane was on fire? Answer, zero. Including even Bush when he was debriefed on the submarine.

You want to believe this one squadron member because it would fit your view of Bush Sr., but he obviously was a competent and capable pilot as he flew 58 combat missions during WWII and I won't disparage his service.

You can believe whatever you want, but the evidence shows Bush gave conflicting versions of the event in question regardless of what anyone else said. The "one squadron member" simply validates this, and was also a competent aircrew member who also received the DFC and is also a veteran of numerous combat missions. He also has no reason to lie and Bush does and we already know he did.

[GGJohn]

62. Conflicting accounts is not that unusual.

When my chopper was shot down, during debriefing, I had to change my account of what happened a few times as I remembered more details. BFD.

Hey, guess what? Bush received the DFC also, let's see, 58 combat missions, numerous medals and citations?
Yeah, he performed well during WWII.

I'm guessing you were never a pilot during combat ops, never had an aircraft shot out from under you, if not, then you have no idea the stress you're under as a million things go through your mind as you try to control the craft while going down.

[Major Nikon]

63. You can guess whatever you want

Regardless of what I claim or don't.

I'm not in the habit of flaunting my experience, (especially military experience) anonymously on the internet because it's completely unverifiable and there's no shortage of internet braggarts who either embellish or completely fabricate any anonymously claimed experience (not sayin' you, but just sayin'). I'd rather just deal with the facts involved rather than any anonymous opinion, my own included, which adds little to nothing to the discussion. YMMV.

Bush's military resume has been quoted numerous times in this thread and I've yet to see how relevant it is to whether or not he has ever told the truth about that day. He served his country during WWII. So did Saint Ronnie, who also embellished (lied) about what he did. There's absolutely nothing inherent to combat which makes one more trustworthy, and there's no shortage of examples of Poppy's other lies he told when it mattered.

[heaven05]

5. Excellent

does not surprise me, in the least. So much about this and other 'heroes' is a sham and political dressing on a politically formulated lie.

[Ino]

7. Thank you, I'd not heard that story before...

Now I can kill the one kind feeling I had towards that family, knowing George Sr's heroism was just the opposite. Why should I have ever thought differently?!

[LiberalElite]

13. and now he's "America's most beloved president"

wonder how that happened...

[Agschmid]

24. He is?

News to this American.

[LiberalElite]

28. i misquoted - should have been "most popular" - see below

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/Decoder-Buzz/2014/1224/George-H.W.-Bush-in-hospital-as-precaution.-Most-popular-living-ex-president''

-snip-
Former President Bush is seen favorably by 63 percent of Americans and unfavorably by only 31 percent, edging out President Clinton. In June, Bush celebrated his 90th birthday with a tandem parachute jump.
-snip-

Yeah, he knows from parachute jumping....

[El Supremo]

32. I just want to know the truth behind this:

Bush 41 says he doesn't remember.

[heaven05]

44. thank you

for some much needed diversion in watching the responses to this. I had a LOT of fun this christmas eve.

[4139]

45. Hmm, u made me look up the Navy's take..

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq10-1.htm

It's worth the read. The OP story isn't worth anything as he went there. The navy says bush plane was hit, they complete the run and was back out to sea when bush bailed. Had bush panicked when hit he would have jumped onto the island!

[JonLP24]

57. Ah, Fortunate Son

It has been years since I was reminded that I read that book. It was a great area for liberal authors & books.

One I didn't truly appreciate at-the-time was Molly Ivins. She was as talented as Franken when it came to the satire but the thing I appreciated the most was the fairness & accuracy. The truth is on our side, the truth is the reason why I support the policies I do and favor the politicians I do. There is tendency to forget that or avoid that.

[malaise]

61. How I love DU archives

Truth will out.

[UTUSN]

65. Ah, I have ever been a thread-killer!1 n/t