Maybe forking over shitloads of cyber intel to China wasn't such a good idea.

[ucrdem]

Ya think?

[True Blue Door]

1. Snowden is a morally ambiguous historical figure.

He often seemed to prioritize stirring shit over accomplishing the specific humanistic goals he claimed to represent.

Finding sanctuary with the likes of Vladimir Putin certainly doesn't help the ultimate resolution of his role in history.

Some of what he did helped freedom, some of it was totally fucked up and exhibited the kind of depraved pragmatism he claimed to be fighting against.

[ucrdem]

2. Astroturfed wingnut libertarians with severe ODS

do not help the cause of freedom. They do help us lose elections however. See November 4, 2014.

[True Blue Door]

3. I can't see blaming November on Snowden, but I see what you mean.

[Cha]

33. Shit stirring libertarian.. loves him some ron paul.. Loves him some putin, too..

"Yet even in the face of this historically disproportionate aggression, countries around the world have offered support and asylum. These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world. It is my intention to travel to each of these countries to extend my personal thanks to their people and leaders.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-asylum-statement-human-rights-groups-un-venezuela-russia-moscow-airport-2013-7#ixzz3MUURYyuz

Putin and his "principles".. Did I mention he's full of shite.

[AndreaCG]

58. Well put

Plus of course he was in favor of putting whistleblowers in jail during the Bush era.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Maybe NSA spying wasn't such a good idea.

[ucrdem]

5. Maybe Sony employees would like to keep their private info private. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Maybe everybody would like to keep their private info private from the NSA.

[ucrdem]

7. Maybe the NSA isn't collecting your private info. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. But, it does seem concerned about a lot of peoples.

Doesn't it? I rather doubt that China is particularly interested in my, or your, private info.

[ucrdem]

9. NSA info collection is regulated. China's info collection isn't.

For example, China doesn't need a warrant to collect Verizon business client metadata.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. What makes you think that China's collection of info isn't regulated by the Chinese?

China is very inventive. The probably came up with bosses before we did.

[ucrdem]

11. China's security agencies aren't regulated by US law.

Cybercrime is what the NSA is primarily concerned with these days and the Sony hack kind of puts that into perspective.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. You don't say.

Of course, the NSA would never, ever, do anything illegal. Just like the CIA would never, ever, do anything illegal. Being "patriots" and all.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. Oddly enough our security agencies aren't regulated by Chinese law.

Coincidence?

[rhett o rick]

17. You have no idea what the NSA is doing. nm

[ucrdem]

20. Actually we have a fairly clear idea thanks to compliance legislation signed by guess who:

This is the full executive summary, with names redacted by The Post, of a classified internal report on breaches of NSA privacy rules and legal restrictions. The report covers the period from January through March 2012 and includes comparative data for the full preceding year. Its author is director of oversight and compliance for the NSA’s Signals Intelligence Directorate:

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/national/nsa-report-on-privacy-violations-in-the-first-quarter-of-2012/395/

There's more in my journal if you're curious.

[rhett o rick]

21. I think you are too easily convinced. I suggest you keep an open mind. nm

[rhett o rick]

15. Interesting that you side with the huge, powerful NSA/CIA Security State and disparage

whistle-blowers.

Just like on the playground. Some choose to side with the big bully. They think they will be safe. They think the big bully will protect them.

I would say that you don't have any respect for our Constitution but choose the perceived safety of the Security State. And if we point out to you that it is the same Security State that was in place when George Bush was president, you don't care. They make you feel safe.

[ucrdem]

22. There's where you're wrong.

Well, the whole thing is wrong, but the relevant point is that it's not the same security state. It's the same apparatus but the laws have changed and these agencies are now held to them. The two you mention received little if any scrutiny during Bush/Cheney I and their lawlessness was legend. The Obama admin on the other hand has consistently run the govt according to the law, many of them newly passed in 2009. The point of the Snowald Benghazi was to make us think nothing has changed but only a sucker would fall for that ruse. Never fooled me for a minute.

[rhett o rick]

26. "The Obama admin on the other hand has consistently run the govt according to the law, many of them

newly passed in 2009." Really? What laws? How did they get passed? and who specifically is enforcing them? Funny that Sen Wyden and Sen Udall don't agree with you. It looks to me like there has been zero oversight in the Bush Admin and nothing changed under Obama. Looks like you are buying what the Security State and Corp-Media is selling.

I am thinking that for you rationalization is the key to happiness.

[ucrdem]

27. WaPo, July 24, 2009: "NSA Names Its First Director of Compliance"

The director of the National Security Agency, the country's largest intelligence body, has for the first time named a director of compliance to monitor adherence to rules governing the surveillance of phone calls and e-mails, as well as other agency activities.

. . . .

The House intelligence committee included a provision in an authorization bill last month that recommended the creation of such a position. The committee chairman, Rep. Silvestre Reyes (D-Tex.), said Thursday he was encouraged that "NSA leadership takes compliance with surveillance authorities seriously and that they recognize the important balance between effective intelligence collection systems and legal protections for American citizens."

The NSA, which focuses on foreign intelligence gathering, was at the center of the controversy surrounding the Bush administration's use of warrantless wiretapping. The program was disclosed in December 2005 and replaced in January 2007 with a new effort overseen by a secret court.

A recent multi-agency report by five inspectors general said "extraordinary and inappropriate" secrecy about the warrantless wiretapping program undermined its effectiveness as a tool to fight terrorism.

DeLong has worked extensively in the technology and policy areas at the agency. He also served a stint at the Department of Homeland Security. His new job will include monitoring compliance with rules governing the protection of military and other computer systems.

DeLong will assist the inspector general and the general counsel in matters of "potential non-compliance" involving mission operations, spokeswoman Judi Emmel said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/23/AR2009072303610.html

Some of us were paying attention

[rhett o rick]

28. No, some are more easily convinced their authoritarian leaders are taking very good care of

them. But why should I try to burst your comfortable denial bubble.

[pnwmom]

18. Right. Because we should do nothing in the face of international spying.

Just sit back and let everyone else spy on us.

[rhett o rick]

31. Right. We should completely trust the unregulated massive Securtiy State because

they promised to keep us safe. All we have to do is give up our Constitutional rights. But it's worth it for their promise of security. And who wouldn't trust completely someone like Gen Clapper.



Our founders are crying.

[treestar]

32. How exaggerated

No we don't have to give up our rights. And yes the NSA does some good. Not every single thing it does its wrong. And all agencies have mistakes. And Eddie is still full of it. He protected no one's freedom. He just gave our security information out willy nilly.

[pnwmom]

37. The NSA collects international intelligence. Our constitutional rights don't apply

in China or any of the other countries the NSA spies on.

[rhett o rick]

49. Even Gen Clapper told us otherwise. But if that's the rationalization you need to

tell yourself, go ahead.

[treestar]

35. They shouldn't do any spying?

Really? How impractical and idealistic is that?

[Warren Stupidity]

13. I've seen a lot of stupid posts on DU today. nt.

[rhett o rick]

16. If you've noticed they never discuss issues but post Obama adulation OP's and hate Snowden and anyon

else that dares speak out against their authoritarian leaders, OP's.

[QC]

19. Maybe letting LoZocolo back in this place wasn't such a great idea.

Ya think?

[Cha]

24. What are you trying to say? LoZocolo? Really? What's he have to do with this?

[ucrdem]

30. I think he's looking for a lost friend. nt

[Cha]

36. Lost in Locozolo land.. You make a post talking about eddie and his dumping data to China and he

get's all Locozolo on us.

[Cha]

23. What brought this on, ucr?

[ucrdem]

25. The Sony hack

Speculation is that NK had help from China or that China is mainly responsible. Remember Obama's summit with Xi in Palm Springs in June 2013? Well, the top agenda item was cybersecurity, but thanks to Agent Ed, whose data delivery to China hit the front pages the same weekend, they didn't go so well.

June 7, 2013: "Obama-Xi Palm Springs summit: Cyber security, North Korea, and Syria on US-China agenda"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014502822

[Cha]

29. Oh yeah, I remember that.. I didn't know that China was supposedly involved in the hacking of Sony!

[ucrdem]

38. Just a guess but yeah, cyberwarfare is the name of the game these days.

I remember EarlG had a good pic-of-the-moment on the day of the summit:



Pretty dismal moment but it's still a funny pic

[Cha]

39. I see all kinds of evidence of FB, Amazon, DKos, etc being aware of my online activities..

not so much NSA. Are you looking at this NSA?!

I bet that went over big time on DU. lol

[Warren Stupidity]

40. They aren't. Your pal is just making shit up. But he said "snowden" so toe the line.

[Cha]

41. "toe the line".. lol.. you poor thing. There is no fucking line.

[ucrdem]

43. Here's a line for that one:

[Cha]

45. You're Welcome.

[Marr]

52. He's right-- this is one of the downright stupidest attacks I've seen yet.

But as mentioned, it's directed at Snowden so by all means, throw basic intelligence to the wind.

[riqster]

53. Totally off topic, but

m.

Johnny Burnette's son. Fun song.

[Cha]

54. No, I don't think it's totally OT.. it's right on topic! mahalo riqster!

It's cute as heck! lol

[ucrdem]

42. Reuters, Friday: "U.S. authorities have found a possible Chinese link to the cyberattack"

Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:58am EST:

U.S. authorities have found a possible Chinese link to the cyberattack, a U.S. official said earlier on Friday. The FBI on Friday also formally announced that North Korea was behind the strike.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/19/us-sony-cybersecurity-usa-china-idUSKBN0JX1U420141219

Now you know!

[Cha]

46. Mahalo.. info that some don't want to know about.

[ucrdem]

47. Snowden is Paul Revere with a thumbdrive full of Sony passwords

[rhett o rick]

50. You are smokin' the funny stuff. Gen Clapper and his multi-billion dollar spy

machine is a bigger danger than a whistle-blower. But you like the big bully and hate the little guy.

[ucrdem]

57. Also thanks to the 2009-10 Intel Act, Clapper's appointment was confirmed by the senate.

Contra Bush-Cheney:

Section 424. Confirmation of appointment of heads of certain components of the Intelligence Community

Section 424 establishes that the directors of the National Security Agency (NSA) and National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) are to be presidentially-appointed and Senate-confirmed. Under present law and practice, the directors of the NSA and NRO, each with a distinct and significant role in the national intelligence mission, are not confirmed by the Senate in relation to their leadership of these agencies. Presently, the President appoints the Director of NSA and the Secretary of Defense appoints the Director of the NRO. Under current law, neither of these appointments must be confirmed by the Senate unless a military officer is promoted or transferred into the position.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp111&sid=cp111iyAS6&refer=&r_n=hr186.111&item=&sel=TOC_282410&

Amazing what you learn on DU eh?

[rhett o rick]

64. You are good at throwing out data and hoping some sticks to the wall. Not sure what your point is.

Gen Clapper is a danger to democracy even if confirmed by the Senate. But some here find comfort in siding with the biggest bullies. If they were around at our countries beginning, they would side with the British. These people are easily swayed by big money propaganda.

And yes some of the things we learn on DU is amazing. Like some would give up their freedoms and liberties for the promise of security. This is not a liberal mindset.

[freshwest]

55. Par for the course!

[ucrdem]

56. Yep. 18 months and they still haven't gotten wise.

And now the chickens are coming home to roost. Oh well, no one can say we didn't try. Happy hollies fresh!

[freshwest]

65. Thanks, ucrdem!

[Warren Stupidity]

59. That is your evidence?

An unnamed source, a possible link. Meanwhile, the on the record position of our government remains North Korea did this, there are no actual attributed accusations that China was involved at all, and no link at all to Snowden.

But I'll play along. How exactly did Snowden's revelations of NSA spying help North Korea hack Sony's servers?

[ucrdem]

61. Yes, and now it's your turn.

Anxiously awaiting.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. your evidence of snowden enabling an alleged chinese hack is?

[Jesus Malverde]

34. .

Jesus

[neverforget]

44. It's Snowden's fault! I knew it!

And Greenwald too just because!

[nilesobek]

48. Our country only thinks 4 years in advance.

Every policy is engineered for the next election. Long term thinking is for long term dictators and leaders. I'm trying to figure out in my malt liquor addled head if its a good thing or not.

[Marr]

51. Because China didn't have hackers before.

I can't take you seriously. What an idiotic smear.

[Jesus Malverde]

60. The CT/CS Forum is that way...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1135

[bemildred]

62. No need to fork it over, it's not really secret.

Most hacks are based on published standards and published code (and bad passwords).

[LanternWaste]

66. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

Logical fallacies aren't such a good idea, either.

[ucrdem]

67. I'll show you a prompter buddy

p.s. it's propter if you want to get pedantic about it