Dear President Obama (an CC any Obama or DNC etc staffers who may happen to browse DU)

[Erose999]

I am not part of this collective "we" who "tortured some folks", nor did I ever put any pressure on ANYONE to use torture methods. You're god damned right I feel "sanctimonious" about the revelations of the methods used in the Senate report.

The "character of our country" will be judged by how these crimes against humanity are prosecuted. "Our values" mean nothing if these actions are allowed to happen without consequence. "Lessons learned" just doesn't cut it, the people responsible for these abuses must be brought to justice.

Your friend,

Eric

[Vincardog]

1. +1

[SamKnause]

2. K&R x 10000000000000000000000

[2naSalit]

3. +100000000000000000000000000000000000!!!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. +

[LiberalLoner]

5. + so much

[KingCharlemagne]

6. Eric, you speak for me! - nt

[msanthrope]

7. So you would oppose your tax money paying for reparations? You oppose German or South African

programs that teach collective responsibility?

You would oppose a Truth and Reconciliation Committee?

You wouldn't apologize to the victims of torture?

[Old Codger]

17. Did you by chance

Read something on another thread and accidentally get transferred to this one while in the process answering that one?? There is nothing in the OP that in any way relates to your post...He never says a thing about reconciliation,apologies or teaching anyone other than the perpetrators of that atrocity a lesson on responsibility.

[msanthrope]

22. No...just wondering if his sense of noninvolvement extended to

that.

[Old Codger]

26. I guess

That I am reading it differently, I don't get a sense that he is proposing "non-involvement" there looks to me as if the OP is pushing for prosecuting the people who condoned and authorized the torture. I tend to agree with that position and think that we would go a long way as a country in mending some fences with the rest of the world and make small step toward redeeming our reputation by doing as we say and be a nation of laws. Our government is lapse in their duty by not enforcing the law on this, irrespective the fact that it is an ex president and vice president.

[Erose999]

54. Yep, I'm pushing for prosecution of those who authorized the torture. Obama saying that "we"

authorized and approved of the torture is a bullshit false equivalency.

[Scuba]

39. "Noninvolvement" Funny, I didn't find any such sense in the OP. Is this another of your diversions?

[sabrina 1]

34. Are you in the wrong thread?

[msanthrope]

38. I never answer your questions, Sabrina. You know that. nt

[sabrina 1]

49. Thanks for your answer!

[Erose999]

50. How am I collectively responsible for things I actively worked to oppose? Things that happened

against my will that I ultimately had no choice in the matter? Is it my fault Dickless Cheney and Alberto Gonzalez got their jollies abusing these people?

Of course I would support reparations and damages paid to detainees. Ultimately that is not my decision either though, TBTB will decide how my tax dollars are spent and I'm guessing they're probably more interested in sending more weapons to Israel for their incursions into Gaza, or authorizing another 10 years of troops in Afghanistan, or more advanced jet bombers and $200,000 smart bombs to drop on tents and Toyota pickup trucks in the desert.

As far as apologizing to the victims of torture, I wouldn't know what to say or that it would even mean anything to them after all they have been through. I would definitely like to see Dickless Cheney apologize to the victims of torture, but an apology is even more unlikely than an indictment.

[msanthrope]

51. No...It's not your fault. But I think we Americans have a collective responsibility

to the victims of this torture.

[rateyes]

8. Damned straight!!

[woo me with science]

9. Worth logging in to rec.

The voice of actual Americans who remember what this nation is supposed to represent, rising up above the now familiar apologistic swill of corporate/MIC talking points.

We didn't vote to "look forward" from these torture centers and deliberate breaking of bones and raping/sodomizing of children by the government of the United States.

[Hubert Flottz]

15. When I was in the Army in the very early 70s...

There were posters everywhere on every base, about the Geneva Convention rules of warfare.

WTF happened to the military?

Where was the Chaplin at Abu Ghraib?

[zeemike]

21. I was in during the 60s

And I watched a lot of training films when I had the duty and nothing else to do.
And it not only covered the Geneva convention but railed against the kinds of torture we now have our government doing...and the one I remember the most is them saying that the reason the commies were so awful was because they believed "the end justifies the means".

When you say it worked or it did not work you are saying that the end justifies the means, or did not justify the means...conceeding the argument that it is about morality.
So what happened is that we were shifted from a moral position to a pragmatic one, of sometimes necessary.

And the last question is a good question...did they have a chaplin?

[sabrina 1]

35. John Yoo happened, he never heard of the Geneva Conventions.

And of course his bosses.

If we were a decent country anymore, all of them would have been rounded up in 2009 or earlier if we had a Congress that actually worked for the people, back in 2004 when the torture was revealed, and charged, tried and convicted.

Then there would have been a national forum on torture and why no decent nation should ever engage in it.

Too bad that we need to even explain it. But apparently we do.

[Hubert Flottz]

42. It became a national disgrace, when we found out and did nothing

and it's a festering cancer on our legal system and our good name around the planet. The world is watching and waiting for us to come clean and deal accordingly with the twisters of the law and for an honest public reckoning, with that sicko chain of command, from top to bottom. Hiding behind all those fear based excuses, for doing nothing, in the way of accounting for this sick shit being played down, is not being swallowed up by the republican's super banker buddies and their "beloved" and exploited "Global Community."

Our attitude as a country..."Who cares, they were just a bunch of "worthless Untermensche?" Did America buy into that attitude when they paid for "Operation Paper clip?" I believe we unknowingly must have, but we already had plenty of home grown fascist enablers in America, when our preferred Nazis moved into our government agencies. It looks like racism on a global scale, but it's up to the 1% throughout the world what race, creed or color, stands in their way next. YOU, could be next on their list of undesirables, even if you are as "innocent as a lamb."

Edit: Welcome to the Fourth Reich

[Enthusiast]

44. Neo-Cons happened to the military.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Well said. I prefer "sanctimonious" to torturing "some folks" without penalty.

[sadoldgirl]

11. + 1000.

I have not heard any apology as of now, only an admission.

This is not just about values, it was a crime, period.

[TygrBright]

12. What Eric said. Me, too. That is all. n/t

[Augiedog]

13. Judgement

We will be judged by the rest of the world, whether we like it or not, by how we respond to the revelations in the torture report summary. Failing to act is the same as advocating for the torturers. These acts by definition are war crimes and no matter which way obsfscation is directed will always be so. America is part of the world and signatory to the rules of the world. To include those rules which we demand of other nations to follow that say if you torture our citizens it is a heinous crime.
The base obscenity and craven depravity displayed by these officers and politicians, their apologists and media cowards who hail the bravery of torturers will not be forgotten nor forgiven. If you are a torturer or an advocate for torture you may want to read the Nuremberg trials documents. It just may give you pause.

[Hubert Flottz]

18. I couldn't agree more, but

What more could you expect from an AWOL for a Commander in Chief and his criminal flunkies. Saying they were ordered to do these things never worked for the Nazis or the Japanese. It is unbelievable that that defense would work today either.

The DOJ is a farce if these war criminals go unpunished in the harshest manner, without mercy. They to this day, show zero remorse.

[Erose999]

24. Its easy to blame Bush and Cheney, but Obama, Holder, Feinstein, etc are also culpable. Some of

these practices continued under their watch and we continue to hold detainees in GITMO who have been cleared of any suspicion of involvement with terrorism years ago.

[Hubert Flottz]

32. The neocons and their cowardly enablers in congress...

put the blood on all our hands.

[sabrina 1]

36. Very well said, thank you!

[Jack Rabbit]

14. K/R

+?

[cry baby]

16. Well said...I totally agree. nt

[MissDeeds]

19. Agree completely

K&R

[peace13]

20. Agree!

And I believe that we have imprisoned others for the same illegal actions.

[calimary]

23. Sadly, because of this, our "values" ARE nothing.

So much blah-blah-blah about "our way of life," and "our values," and "Our A-MARE-ican VAL-lues." Our "moral authority."

WHAT values? WHAT "moral authority"? We don't HAVE any "moral authority" anymore. Waterboarding washed all that down the drain. Our "values" are non-existent. They mean NOTHING. They're worth SHIT - actually, to be more precise, they're worth one of those lovely and delectable hummus-and-raisins enemas that were being served, in our name and on our dime, to people in custody who we decided we didn't like.

It makes me almost literally ill. Physically ill. How can we face the world anymore? Answer: WE CAN'T. We don't have Thing One to say about it anymore. That's GONE. We don't just feel shame now. We ARE shame. And that shame is us. Especially since there's no really serious drive or commitment or, evidently, any taste - for dragging those offenders from dick cheney and george w bush on down the food chain to justice and forcing them to answer for their war crimes. Not just crimes. WAR crimes.

Makes me sick.

[Horse with no Name]

25. It makes me ill

It makes me ill that these conservatives who literally roll Jesus around on platform wanting to insert him in every venue--are silent in this regard.

I am not a religious person. I am a spiritual person and honestly do not see how these so-called Christians can reconcile a kind and loving and forgiving Jesus with what they support being done in their name.

It doesn't make sense and at times, renders me speechless at their unequivocal support--well, because 911!

[Hubert Flottz]

31. Reminds me of Mr. Hitler and his "Vengeance Weapons."

The world didn't stand for it then and the world shouldn't be expected to stand for it now!

America didn't stand for it then either...after that first Pearl Harbor.

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

I think we need to go to the replay booth to see what REALLY happened. "If they have nothing to hide, what are they hiding?" ~ George W Bush about Saddam, in Bush's lie filled SOTU, speech before the invasion of Iraq. Do they think they are fooling God, or do they really just not give a shit about God?

Nobody could despise what the attackers did on 9/11/2001 more than me, but it didn't give us a license to torture and murder, like the outlaws who we supposed ourselves to be more righteous or more holy than. It made us no better than those hate driven criminals who attacked us.

"A good scout is clean, in thought, word and deed." What an example the neocons have set, for every generation of Americans to come. "WE" became "THEM" when we went vigilante on the middle east. We are no better than that now, for trying to cover up the truth and protect the guilty. Some "Superpower," that don't have the guts, to do what's right and punish our own international war criminals. The DOJ is still a farce today, and the world is watching and waiting for our legal system to "Man Up."

Why should anyone respect the Laws of the Land, when our "Leaders" and misleaders are exempt?

[sabrina 1]

37. We long ago outdid what those 9/11 attackers did. By the hundreds of thousands.

Which is why there is no more sympathy for the US. The world responded to that attack in support of the US.

Now the world fears US more than any country on the planet.

We squandered any moral authority we ever had.

For that alone the torturers should be rounded up and jailed. It was treason. No terrorist could have done to this country what they have done.

[calimary]

47. I'm sorry. A true Christian would not do this. OR advocate it. And Certainly not excuse it!!!

Someone who professes to believe in Christ (you know, that Guy who said to love your enemies? To turn the other cheek? AND that same Guy who said that - to follow Him - the rich kid should give up all his worldly goods? That same Guy who said whatever you do to the least of these, you do to Me - that it's really ME to whom you're doing that - that I'M that guy?) would not do that, and COULD NOT do that.

I think we should start challenging them. This crap about "if you don't work, you shall not eat" - that wasn't even Jesus talking! That was Paul-the-Hardass. In one of the letters to the Thessalonians. AFTER Jesus had come and gone, thankyouverymuch. I heard michele bachmann spouting that one in a soundbite and just got really aggravated. Jesus NEVER SAID THAT!!! Nor did He preach that!!!! What the HELL????? Trying to put words in Jesus's Mouth to buttress your own ayn rand "religion" of selfishness and cold-heartedness!!! That is just horrifyingly HIDEOUS!!!! That is NOT something that any GENUINELY "God-fearing" Christian should EVER EVER do!!! Seems to me if you are out there actively and willfully perverting the message of Jesus Christ to validate your own selfishness, you can go to Hell for that. It's certainly not for me to say. But if it were, that'd be an iron-clad rule. AND an iron-clad penalty. You do NOT justify selfishness by perverting and distorting the Word of Jesus. Seems to me you Just. Do. NOT. Do. That!

How do they even sleep at night? How do they even look themselves in the mirror in the morning? How do they even dare to call themselves Christians?

I think we should start NAILING them on this. Outright. In public. QUESTION their so-called "christianity." They've done nothing but perverted and bastardized and smeared it. I don't even like to capitalize that word as it applies to them. What I learned about Christianity from the nuns in Catholic school - was precisely NONE of that.

[Solly Mack]

27. K&R

[marym625]

28. Eric, if you don't mind, please allow me the honor to say, and in my name

Thank you

K&R all over the place

[robinlynne]

29. "our values"

[Jesus Malverde]

30. DU Rec

Jesus

[woo me with science]

33. kick

[Scuba]

40. Agree totally. Thanks Erose999.

[Maineman]

41. Agree!

[Enthusiast]

43. K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations!

Way to go, Eric! Apparently no lessons have been learned.

A future Neo-Con government would take us into another war under false pretenses—probably Iran. And a future Neo-Con government would have no qualms about torturing and war crimes. Because they are the bad guys, not unlike their WWII counterparts.

We also didn't commit Wall Street fraud or protect the fraudsters from prosecution and wreck the world economy. But we are the ones that have suffered for it.

New World order, baby! Love it or leave it!

[Hubert Flottz]

48. No Scheiße Hoss!

The PNAC Neocons are rabid and on the loose, just like the wall street traitors and super bankers. Just waiting to hurl Jebby Bush into FuhrerHood and draw the net on that freedom and liberty shit and anybody that's still for it.(too "Quaint&quot

I say,(taint Quaint)and they sure as hell ain't saints. Even if "GAWD" is perpetually on the side of the radical Reich wing, as they constantly testify to, in front of the cameras. Any neofascist card carrying PNAC member, will try and convince you, that shit is sugar, if your senses are too dull to detect the wretched smell.

About Poppy Bush's New World Odor...that "thousand points of light" was his vision of the shit that was going to rain down on our country, if the neocons could grab the levers of power and rig the game for the 1%, from now on. "The Thousand Year Reich," Volume Two.

[treestar]

45. Too bad, you are a part of the country

Yes you are part of the collective.

[whereisjustice]

46. Every policeman who murders another unarmed black man was given a free pass by Obama

to murder without cause. When it comes down to it, Obama will always excuse murder and torture as a product of patriotic folks who can be excused for loving their job and country too much.

Jesus Christ, even when given a chance to set a moral precedent, Obama fails to challenge authority.

[woo me with science]

52. kick

[L0oniX]

53. Eventually TPTB will come around to our way of thinking.