Why isn't the blood on Zimmerman's head smeared all over from the grass?

[Quixote1818]

Last edited Sat Apr 21, 2012, 06:04 PM - Edit history (3)

Why are their clean drips running down the sides and toward his back? And why is the top cut so long and thin, almost like a knife slice?

On Edit: I don't think there is any doubt the photo is real because of the GPS / Time stamp, however my question is; was it self inflicted after the fight to give him cover? Did he have time to self inflict a wound?

However, even if it wasn't self inflicted, the way the blood drips suggests to me that Zimmerman may have been on his back but eventually ended up over the top of Martin as the blood was dripping down on all sides. His head was facing mostly down for the blood to drip this way.

[IcyPeas]

1. and the rain?

[Bjorn Against]

13. It certainly does not look like it is pouring rain in that picture

A light rain may not show up on a picture, but a heavy rain certainly would. Does anyone know how hard the rain was coming down at that moment? If the rain that night was heavy that alone could potentially prove this photo false.

[TorchTheWitch]

19. I remember it being said that it was drizzling

It isn't necessary to try to prove the photo false. We know he had a minor head wound. Scalp wounds bleed a lot - any cut where the skin is right over bone bleeds a lot (like a shin or ankle). We also know from witnesses that there was some kind of physical altercation in which it is likely he could have received minor injuries. That isn't what matters. What matters is why was there a physical altercation, who started the physical altercation and why, and the wounds he received don't match his story for how he got them.

Though it appears he has a long horizontal cut, he doesn't. It has that appearance more than likely because of the direction of blood flow. Had he been on top of Martin looking down at him (so that his face would have been parallel to the ground) the blood flow would be horizontal following the curve of his skull downward in that position. If anything, this blood flow shows that had he ever been on his back at all it couldn't have been for long at ALL after he received the wound and that this horizontal blood flow trail shows that he was more than likely on top of Martin looking down at him.

[Little Star]

2. One of my questions is how much does a head wound normally bleed?

[Chan790]

5. A great deal.

My brother shaves his head and occasionally nicks or cuts himself. That's not a razor nick wound but it's not much bigger. If you made even a moderately-deep 1/16" cut or two, you'd get more blood than that. In fact, the reason you see so many headwounds in "extreme wrestling" because you don't need to do much damage to make it look like a serious injury with lots of blood. Most of those wounds you see...are inflicted with safety-pins and blades out of disposable razors.

That on Zimmerman's head is a long horizontal scrape and a small cut.
Edit: Also those are blade wounds, I cut myself enough growing-up to know a knife-wound when I see one.

[MADem]

7. Did he hit his head getting into the police car while handcuffed?

It sure seems like that's where the wound ended up. Maybe he scraped off a scab on his way in the car?

I wonder what the digital signature on the picture says?

[karnac]

33. Not likely.

The evidence suggests(iphone foto time imprint) that the foto was taken BEFORE the police arrived and took charge, by a local immediate witness. As soon at they arrived the police would have to secure the area(make locals stay away), secure zimmerman and document what happened. the iphone photographer wouldn't have had a chance to take THIS foto after he banged his head on a police car door.. too far.

[MADem]

40. Can that "foto time imprint" be manipulated, I wonder? nt

[karnac]

47. Yes indeed it could be.

There are editors for that "meta-data" There is a purpose for those that rely on that to organize their pictures. Much like manipulating ID3 tags so audio files play correctly in your mp3 player/ipod.

But it DOES add to the documentation and validity of the file. If the iphone user also mailed/texted/twittered/facebooked/gave-to-police shortly thereafter that would enhance its legitimacy also.

[HooptieWagon]

3. Yep. And no bits of grass or leaves stuck to the blood.

And not a drop of blood, or bandages, or bloody swollen nose and black eyes at the police station 30 minutes later. Man that guy heals fast.

[Vincardog]

4. Why is the guy in this picture bald? The ZimmerCritter isn't

[TorchTheWitch]

41. yeah he is

Or at least he was when the incident occurred. He also had thinning hair several years before as noted by the grinning photo of him in suit and tie which is probably why he decided to shave is head.

[Rex]

6. That is a staged photo and ABC took the bait.

Looks like iodine to me...maybe someone poured it on his flesh wound and took a picture? Dunno but as I was told by another poster once, 'maybe it is photoshopped'?

[karnac]

9. doubt it was photoshopped

there are actually many good tools online to do good forensic photo analysis.

Unfortunately we need a clean unadulterated image copy to do so. ABC has plastered their logo over their copy making it impossible. probably resized too.

ABC has the original and so do the police.The public are left with mere speculation since we can't prove it ourselves one way or the other.

[Rex]

11. I don't think it was photoshopped either.

But I've heard people say that. Yes all we are left with is speculation.

[Bjorn Against]

14. It may not need to be photoshopped...

How do we know with certainty that it was taken at the time of the incident or that it is even George Zimmerman in the picture? Date and time stamps can be easily manipulated, a photo does not have to be photoshopped to be fraudulent.

[karnac]

21. We DO know that zimmerman was injured.

And that these "minor" injuries are consistent with what the state was FORCED to admit at the bail hearing. That zimmerman WAS injured and bleeding..

Now as far as speculation how serious the injuries were, there is ALOT of room. scalps bleed profusely at the smallest cut. Frankly i am surprised the fotos show so little blood.

[underpants]

16. My first thought was that he had to have a hat on

people don't blead from a straight line.

[TorchTheWitch]

42. it's most likely blood trail

If Zimmerman was on top of Martin looking down at him (as in his face being parallel to the ground) the blood would flow horizontally downward following the curve of his skull due simply to gravity. Seeing how several witnesses saw him in that position than I'm going with horizontal blood trail.

[vaberella]

8. I'm waiting for the finger smears.

I figured if you're head is bleeding instinctively you touch the back of your head to see if it is or not. This shit doesn't make sense.

[Bjorn Against]

10. Remember also that we do not know where this photo came from

We do know however that it was not introduced in court where the standards for evidence are much higher it was handed to the media by an anonymous person. If the person who took this photo does not get called to testify in the trial we will know the photo is a fake, obviously anyone who would be there to take a picture like this three minutes after the shooting would be considered a key witness and would be called to testify.

[karnac]

15. clearly ABC thought it was real.

how do we know? only the police(who are automatically entitled to it) and ABC(who was clearly willingly paid for the the exclusivity for it) have it. everybody else has to "borrow" it

All the major networks are cheap bastards that are only willing to pay(externally) when they KNOW they have the REAL goods EXCLUSIVELY.

If you *think* it's fake, then riddle me this.. why hasn't the state protested that it's fake?

Answer: because it's REAL and already submitted to the state. They would have been crying like a baby that they didn't get it too.

[Bjorn Against]

20. Are you suggesting ABC has never presented any false information before?

You ask me why the state has not questioned the photo, I ask you have they verified that it is real? The prosecutors in this case have been very tight lipped, they are not confirming or denying very much information at all and they are not taking questions from reporters on the facts of the case.

[karnac]

23. Right. ABC FAKED evidence AGAINST zimmerman.

And the person that did got fired for it. Funny but few protests about that here(you?) when he faked it but that's another issue.

They are under scrutiny and rightly so. More reason for them to play it straight from here on. They can't afford otherwise

[Bjorn Against]

27. I think you are referring to NBC on the altered 911 tapes

And if that is what you are referring to then yes, nearly everyone on this site said NBC was stupid for doing so I don't remember hearing a single person defend it.

That does not do anything to prove ABC is correct in this case though, nor does it suggest that everything the media does from this point forward will be above board. It was not the first time the media has manipulated the news and it won't be the last.

[robinlynne]

48. the prosecution is quiet about its affairs. They will not be crying like a baby in public over anyth

[Tx4obama]

12. Anyone notice that the TOP RIGHT light red part looks like the shape of a question mark?

That's weird!

[obamanut2012]

18. OOOOO it does

Weird.

[madokie]

17. That is not zimmermans head

That head is totally bald on top where as Zimmermans is only cut short. this is not his head

[niyad]

22. so who is this pic of, because there is no way to prove it is zimmerman.

and remember the police video? NO blood, NO cuts, NO injuries

[karnac]

30. and remember stypic pencils

wipe down, seal wound with white bactracin stypes. Nose bleeds seal quickly unless a major capillary broken(my nose bleeds shut off after I held my head up high for 5 minutes). Don't even need band aids.

I would have liked to see what he looked like AFTER several hours or so. Black eyes and swelling take a while to show up.

If you swell up or blacken after only 35 minutes maybe there something SERIOUSLY wrong with you.

Are you dead? Zombie?

[intheflow]

45. Not to mention the supposedly broken nose.

I didn't see any evidence of that on the police tape, either. Even if they'd wiped his face off, there still would have been blood on his shirt.

[karnac]

46. actually RED blood on a RED jacket, NOT shirt

Remember, Zimmerman was out walking/stalking in the cold. Drizzling in fact. Hoodie weather....

Don't know about you but if it was me I would have been buttoned up at the time of the confrontation. No point to playing kopster and NOT being toasty.

Don't think red shows up well against red especially on cheesy video

Think his shirt wasn't exposed until he was detained, searched and treated.

As far as broken noses, hard for me to say. An ex-GF once claimed she broke her nose when she slipped on the wet pavement outside my house. I didn't believe her until she painfully wiggled it for me.

Dumped me the next day.

[intheflow]

50. It didn't look to me like he was at all wet in that video.

Certainly not wet enough to have blood splatter from a) a bloody nose, or b) a close-range gun shot completely gone from his clothes.

[Zookeeper]

24. Let's say it's real...

So, didn't Trayvon Martin have a right to defend himself when he was followed and harassed by a strange adult man carrying a gun? Based on the conversation quoted by his girlfriend, he was probably frightened. I certainly would fight in that situation.

[karnac]

25. Are you saying Travon would punch a man he saw with a gun?

I like to think Travon would be smarter than that.

[Zookeeper]

32. I'm saying Trayvon had a right to defend himself.

If I were a 17 year old being followed by a strange adult man with a gun, I certainly would disarm him with a punch if I had the opportunity. What would you do?

[karnac]

34. *I* would raise my hands and ask how high he wants me

to hop on one foot and cluck like a chicken. I am over 50 and KNOW quite well of my mortality. Nothing to do with cowardice.

As a teenager, I thought I was Immortal. I paid the price for my stupid testosterone-fueled bravado way too often. Luckily not mortally.

But I think better of Travon than you do. I don't think he ever saw a gun until it was too late. After he thought he was almost finished teaching the out-of-shape wannabe-cop idiot a lesson on WHO to follow.

I think Travon would have done the chicken dance with me *IF* he saw a gun.

Of course he would have had better rhythm than I. 8-)

Can't dance worth a damn.

Mere speculatin' on my part.

[Chan790]

38. Actually you're least-likely to die if you attack the gunman...

most likely to die fleeing and slightly less likely to die if you stand-still or comply in any situation where the distance is less than 8-10' and you believe that that gunman's intent is aggressive. (That is, they intend to shoot rather than stand-off.)

The best course of action is to charge the gunman, push and pin the gun arm (between wrist and elbow, not elbow and shoulder) out and away from their body, yell "Fire" loudly and repeatedly to attract attention. Almost nobody gets the shot off accurately (most people don't get the shot off at all) at that distance except trained personnel like soldiers and police; it's unexpected, they hesitate and lose their firing-window which is only about .25s before you close the distance and are into them.

[Zookeeper]

39. Notice I said "If I were a 17 year old."

I am also over 50 and I hope I would react as wisely as you've described, however, some of us have a strong, automatic, "fight" over "flight" (or "cooperate" ) response.

Maybe because I'm female, maybe because I have a son the same age as Trayvon, and roughly the same height and weight, I would perceive a strange adult man following a teen with a gun to be a serious threat. Disarming him would lessen the threat considerably. I don't think it insults Trayvon, to think he would take an opportunity to disarm Z. versus just beating Z. up for following him.

This isn't directed at you, but, I think too few people really consider the fact that he was a kid, who could have been frightened by being followed and felt he was under attack.

This conversation is a good reminder of how varied people's perceptions and reactions are. It should be very interesting to watch this trial unfold.

[karnac]

51. This is why law can NEVER fit all situations

I agree with you that Trayton had the MORAL right to defend himself, even if preemptive(before something bad actually happened). From mere fright/anger even.

IF so however, one should justifiably grant the same privilege to Zimmerman. BAD(if still legal) judgement notwithstanding.

The problem is that Travon is dead and we will NEVER know what exactly happened. Except on Zimmerman's word.

Without knowing ALL the details, are we ready to condemn the person that was still left alive? Legally? Morally? can't always put the both together. Should collective wisdom OUTSIDE the law prevail? Lynching? Bend to those that cry the loudest about the injustice of the result?

It is extremely possible that both made bad judgments. But within your and my moral(and probably legal) realm. All we are left with is the result.

One dead having been snuffed at the beginning of his life.

The other condemned to being a pariah. Not entirely of a an accepting tribe so always an outsider to all. condemned forever to looking his shoulder. Knowing full well his executioner will probably be regarded as a hero by the aggrieved tribe. The self appointed arbiter of final justice might very well be justified in accepting this honor for the price paid of life in prison(speaking of course of the smiter of zimmerman).

The living very well may envy the dead.

Btw, I would still have danced like a chicken even at 17 when faced by a gun. Didn't take take judo/karate courses till 18.

[Quixote1818]

26. I think it is a real photo, I just wonder if the wounds were self inflicted after the fight?

nt

[karnac]

28. Possible, but I don't think Z-man is that smart

And likely he would have to had to rely on the guy(photographer) to stage it completely. Cut his scalp for him even while people were looking in to see what all the noise was about.

[Quixote1818]

29. Probably correct. There was very little time to do much however

see my other point in the OP that I just added. The photo seems to suggest he was facing down most of the time he was bleeding meaning he was on top of Martin while most of the bleeding occurred.

[karnac]

31. Interesting point however,

If this scuffle ranged from the cement walkway to the grass(remember, at least some of the late witnesses claim it was at least sometime on grass) that means that the initial blood loss might have been been completly wiped away on the grass. after he shot travon while on his back he would have gotten up have had the opportunity to have his scalp bleed the CORRECT way.

[Quixote1818]

35. Thats a big stretch, the grass would have been like a paint brush

wiping the blood all over the place, not wiping it clean. Even with a paper towel you often have to wipe blood way several times to get it clean, grass would not absorb the blood at all and only adhere to a small percentage of it.

[karnac]

36. remember that your damp grass premise

We are also not sure how damp.

Would lightly damp grass wipe blood away blood better than VERY damp grass?

Ive wiped dog doodoo off my shoes quite completely with wet grass. Did take more than one pass though.

Should try it with my scalp with different grades of wetness and see what happens. And move around vigorously as if i was being slapped silly while on my back.

[TorchTheWitch]

43. without being seen?

Remember, witnesses were watching him immediately after the shot and one apparently during the struggle. The police also arrived in the next minute or so. When would he have had any opportunity to self-inflict wounds without being seen? Why after just shooting someone would he even think of that?

I just do NOT understand why it is so damn difficult for so many people here to believe he had some minor wounds when it was in the police report, the prosecution has admitted it, and now here we have a photo. The FACT that he had some minor wounds doesn't matter, and I've been saying this over and over since that ridiculous video came out of him at the police station in which many of us COULD see what may have been a scalp wound, and we know from witnesses that there was a physical struggle in which it is entirely possible he could have received some minor wounds. What DOES matter is who started the physical confrontation and why, and his minor wounds do not match the story he told as to how he got them.

[WingDinger]

37. The reason why the blood runs sideways, is he is a wannabe gangster, holding his gun sideways

and had to tilt to aim.

[cr8tvlde]

44. There is absolutely no evidence that this is George Zimmerman

None. Why, allegedly fighting for his life, isn't there any grass on his person or clothing here or in the police station 30 minutes later?

His "hairline" changes with each enhancement. Getting rid of whatever that red stuff is before getting him to the station would take soap, water, and most importantly, time. Also, I never knew that a camera flash could make someone with a full head of hair, even a buzz, look bald.

Couldn't the person take more than one "evidence" photo with the cell phone?

Fake.

[JoePhilly]

49. I'm waiting to see Martin's blood splatter on Zimmerman's shirt.

If Martin was on top of Zimmerman when the shot was fired, then there should be blood splatter from that on Zimmerman.

[bullwink]

52. If you blow pic up and look closer

Last edited Sat May 5, 2012, 08:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Hrmm , i blowed the picture up and was looking what was dark in his right hand
it kinda looks like the back end of a 9 mm handgun, its not a cell phone.
he wanted his buddy call his wife tell here he just shot someone.

Did he know this guy who showed up so fast? who is this wittiness , is it the guy that
has been defending g.zimmerman on tv? ya know i think there something strange an the fbi , csi are good at things like blood spat direction of flow , they maybe even able to detect if g.zimmerman pistol whipped himself , or the guy that showed up had a big flash light in his hand , he could said George its gonna sting but let me hit you fast and ill snap photos.

its my thought anyway.

i think he will get some time out ta what he did investigators will disclose all the little things that doesn't match up.

have a nice day.