Why Poor People Stay Poor

[xchrom]

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/family/2014/12/linda_tirado_on_the_realities_of_living_in_bootstrap_america_daily_annoyances.html


The author lost a truck to an impound lot like this because she couldn’t pay the storage fees.

I once lost a whole truck over a few hundred bucks. It had been towed, and when I called the company they told me they’d need a few hundred dollars for the fee. I didn’t have a few hundred dollars. So I told them when I got paid next and that I’d call back then.

It was a huge pain in the ass for those days. It was the rainy season, and I wound up walking to work, adding another six miles or so a day to my imaginary pedometer. It was my own fault that I’d been towed, really, and I spent more than a couple hours ruing myself. I finally made it to payday, and when I went to get the truck, they told me that I now owed over a thousand dollars, nearly triple my paycheck. They charged a couple hundred dollars a day in storage fees. I explained that I didn’t have that kind of money, couldn’t even get it. They told me that I had some few months to get it together, including the storage for however long it took me to get it back, or that they’d simply sell it. They would, of course, give me any money above and beyond their fees if they recovered that much.

I was working two jobs at the time. Both were part time. Neither paid a hundred bucks a day, much less two.

I wound up losing my jobs. So did my husband. We couldn’t get from point A to point B quickly enough, and we showed up to work, late, either soaked to the skin or sweating like pigs one too many times. And with no work, we wound up losing our apartment.

[Scuba]

1. Hundreds of dollars a day to park a car. Extortion.

[Fumesucker]

7. Nothing personal, just bidness

Follow the money, people like the lot operator don't get gravy deals like that without some kind of quid pro quo, somewhere a back is getting scratched and a palm crossed with silver.

[Pakid]

46. Yes it is

Having been involved with storage for insurance companies 10-15 dollars a day at least where I am at is the norm. But then the people that I know run an honest business. If someone is towing for a city and screwing over people like this there are steps that can be taken to put an end to there dishonest practices. The sad part is that it cost money to do so and if you don't have money then it is a whole lot harder to do anything about it. Still taking them to court even if you have to act as your own lawyer is better than letting a crook keep getting away with it!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

215. These slimeballs used to come into my old office

We had an enormous parking lot, I think the official count was something like 462 spots. For uhh... about eighty people (There were supposed to be two other buildings but they were never built.) People from nearby apartment complexes would park on the far end of the lot. We did not care, at all. The landlord, a pension fund in Canada did not care. Sometimes people would come in and ask if there were spots available for rent and we just said go ahead and park. We don't care, we aren't in the parking business.

These towing company dickheads would come into the office offering their services and saying they could start immediately. As in towing the cars, without warning, no sign or anything. I would tell them to fuck off and to consider making an honest living as prostitutes.

Personally, I won't go into any business anywhere if there is a sketchy towing sign in their parking lot.

I have a seething hatred of towing companies owing to an incident in Arizona in my youth where our car was just plain stolen by a tow truck. The police said it was a civil matter. The towing company said "whatcha gonna do about it? Nice stereo by the way."

We stole our own car out of the lot and set the land speed record for Interstate 10. Oh boy were our fathers angry.

[Control-Z]

222. I had my car stolen right out of my garage.

I chased them halfway down the street trying to stop them. I paid over 200.00 that same night to get it back. HO's board of directer's little deal with the towing company. They split the profits.

The same people hooked up and started towing my neighbor's car with her infant and toddler still buckled in their seats. She was unlocking her front door so she could carry them in.

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

240. We had a car stolen from in front of our house in San Francisco

Reported it the next morning. It had been towed that night, as they ran out of gas on a bridge. We were not told where it was for a week and had to pay huge fees to get it back. I wondered if the police and the tow company worked together some way...

[ThoughtCriminal]

226. Similar story. Also Arizona.

But it's a nice racket everywhere I suppose.

[wordpix]

265. Call the mayor, your state legislators and media

I've found my legislators are very helpful with this kind of thing. My own issues are with health care (insurance and absurdly high prices charged by providers and drug cos, but my legislators have responded when I've had a problem.

Also, many newspapers/online media have a writer who will call a company that a person's having difficulty with to get a response, and then the news outfit publishes the response. Often this approach of possible public shaming is enough for the company to give the $$$ back.

There is also the better business bureau.

Reminds me of Liar, Liar when Jim Carey gets his car impounded but your consequences were much more serious.

[marmar]

2. K/R

[madokie]

3. As my mother would say

Poor people have poor ways.

give that some thought for a while. It took me a long time to actually get it but I finally did get it

[brush]

15. So it's their fault?

C'mon, if that's what your post meant I hope you never get your car towed.

I can't think of a more unfair policy than to charge $100 a day or more for storage fees. That's just about highway robbery when you're barely making ends meet.

Everyone is not so lucky to just be able to dole out hundreds to thousands of dollars to get a car out of the tow lot.

[dumbcat]

115. Well, the article said it was in this case

" It was my own fault that I’d been towed, really, ..."

So there's that. Probably a poor decision.

[Tsiyu]

184. It's so fun living in a so-called "Christian nation"

"Feed my sheep" becomes "Fuck 'em if they can't work."

"Don't judge" becomes "THEY DID SOMETHING WORNG ONCE: JUDGE JUDGE JUDGE."

"Forgive 70 times 7" becomes "If someone makes a mistake THEY DESERVE TO BE SCORNED AND NEVER FORGIVEN AND EXTORTED FOR EVERY PENNY THEY OWN."

Ahhh....the smell of the self-righteous is so pungent in your post.....

[dumbcat]

185. You found all that

in my statement?

[Tsiyu]

190. Well, what are you saying then?

"Someone made a mistake out there, so I suppose it's okay if that one mistake cost them their vehicle.

It's okay if someone exploits them- they made a MISTAKE.

They ADMIT it. Maybe they parked in the wrong spot.

Who cares. They made a mistake, so they should shut up and accept whatever the universe throws at them."

That's exactly what your post said.

I just want to know, how do people become as Draconian as you appear to be? So unmerciful toward their fellow man? Is it inferior daycare? Calvinist parents?

Are we all supposed to be exactly perfect at every moment or we deserve to be exploited?

Why? Who taught you that?

[dumbcat]

197. Post number 3

was what I believe we were discussing.

I quote a phrase from the OP, and now I am Draconian? Unmerciful? I'm done here.

[Tsiyu]

200. Woohoo!

[Psephos]

238. What a hypocrite you are in these posts.

As you posted earlier:

"Don't judge" becomes "THEY DID SOMETHING WORNG ONCE: JUDGE JUDGE JUDGE."

"Forgive 70 times 7" becomes "If someone makes a mistake THEY DESERVE TO BE SCORNED AND NEVER FORGIVEN AND EXTORTED FOR EVERY PENNY THEY OWN."

Ahhh....the smell of the self-righteous is so pungent in your post.....

Civil discourse requires civility. Find some. The person you excoriated for the crime of having an opinion different from your own is a good person and a good member of DU, and deserves simple respect. As do you. As do I.

[Tsiyu]

244. Sorry, but I am fed up with losers

who think they are brilliant at social policy because they can parrot something the Baptist preacher said last week in his fire and brimstone sermon.

I WILL call you on it every time.

And unlike the poster to whom you refer, I do not believe the poster should be financially rendered destitute because he or she makes mistakes in judgment.

That's the difference.

THAT POSTER: It's acceptable that the OP lost a car, and that the car lot gouges them and charges such a perverse amount of money for their mistake because A MISTAKE WAS MADE.

ME: I don't want to take anyone's car, even if they are an asshole on the internets. THAT is the difference. I may tell poster what I think, but I am not advocating anyone doing anything mean to the poster because of their mistake in judgment. I'm just celebrating that they shut up.

Some of us are fed up with those of you who have this Calvinist, cruel, judgmental attitude. If you don't like it, stop being a judgmental asshole who excuses harm done to the poor.

[dumbcat]

263. It is interesting

The post I responded to above asked "... if it was their fault?" I responded with a quote from the subject of the article where she admitted that in the instant case it was her fault. ("It was my own fault that I’d been towed, really, ..." ) From that post, I was accused of being draconian and unmerciful. Now, I am a loser. It is obvious that truth and civility is not a concern among some people here if they are "fed up" with something. How progressive.

[LanternWaste]

270. One could entertain the possibility that should so many find the same fault

One could entertain the possibility that should so many find the same fault, it may not be of my character rather than their imagining. Possibly examine the obvious implications in our words rather than hiding behind them.

Or, one simply could play the martyr and simply respond with an additional criticisms via a lack of grace.

Very interesting (as you say), indeed.

[CreekDog]

269. Civil discourse is not suggesting fair compensation for mistakes is to live in poverty

you should be arguing against those who think poverty is a fair result of the mistakes that we all make, but for most of us, the mistakes that don't make us poor afterwards.

[dumbcat]

275. Civility in discourse is not about

content, it is about conveyance. That you confuse the two shows me something of your character.

[nomorenomore08]

303. So if someone offers an uncivil opinion in a civil way, we should all just smile and nod?

[dumbcat]

305. I suppose you could if you wanted to

I probably wouldn't, and I didn't say anyone should.

The issue was civil discourse. Discourse is a word. It has a meaning. Look it up.

[nomorenomore08]

306. Fair enough. I'm not saying civility isn't a good idea - generally it is - but there are exceptions.

[dumbcat]

308. Such as?

nt

[dumbcat]

309. Could you tell me what constitutes an uncivil opinion

please?

[CreekDog]

268. well the title of the OP is about why people are poor

for the non poor, getting a car towed is a mistake, not one with poverty as a consequence.

think about the fairness of that. your post doesn't indicate that you have done that yet.

[dumbcat]

277. I did not, nor did I intend to

say anything about fairness in my posts above.. I merely related a fact from the article to answer a question posted. If and when I intend to address the fairness of such, I will do so. Or do you have some rule that I must always address every issue that every reader wishes to see?

But for the record, I think 90% of these car towings and the reprehensible fees are an immoral scam. And then I would wonder how many of the poor people who are victimized by these scams vote in their state and local elections which elect the politicians who allow these practices to exist. You need not respond.

[jtuck004]

218. +1000

That High Horse of Self-Righteousness...



Rosie's Teaparty

[Tsiyu]

251. Don't you love when people on the internets

are all like "well, they made a mistake, so of course they must PAY dearly for that mistake."

But if you say a blunt word or two to them in retort, because you think it's ridiculous what a car lot charges a poor person to store a car, they develop the vapors and act like you stabbed them.

They don't mind if someone else loses their form of transportation for a small mistake, but they do mind if you hurt their tender feelings.

Hilarious...

[jtuck004]

258. Our problem is that we can't hear them when THEY go outside and find that they really

did park half of their bumper into the handicap space and it's a $450 ticket...

...then it was someone else's mistake. The lines were or were not painted or badly, the sun was in their eyes, there was a cart in the way...

standard stuff, excuses that exclude them even being in the universe of blame.

Really good book:

Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me)
Book by Elliot Aronson and Carol Tavris
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/522525.Mistakes_Were_Made_But_Not_by_Me_

I read a book about poverty not too long ago. The author showed that, in my rough memory, people who live on less than $40K a year pay an additional $3500 or so in fees that people who make more simply are not charged in a variety of ways. If they weren't charged those things they would be better off, and in some cases laws were changed to make it possible to screw them - usury laws that were deleted so credit cards could charge higher interest and payday loan folks could do more business.

According to an Oxfam report, the 85 richest people's assets are increasing by $500,000 a minute. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why people don't see THEM as the problem. Maybe it's because they don't live next door, but how hard can it be to see that THEY are the ones making your choices hard, not that single mom trying to get her car out of hock on her no-cost government phone.

[AlbertCat]

229. Probably a poor decision.

As was showing up late to work, no matter how you got there.

But all this "you made bad decisions" finger wagging STILL doesn't excuse the lack of giving someone down a break.

I'll bet there was zero public transpo as an option. Why should everyone and their grandmother HAVE to own a car in a populated place to get around?

Oh yeah.... gotta use more gasoline!

[brush]

261. I was responding to the poster who quoted her mother saying . . .

"poor people have poor ways" which I feel was faulting poor people as a whole.

I was not responding to the situation in the article, but the person in the article was caught up in a circumstance that befalls many of us, not just the poor.

If you have the resources you can pay your fine, get your car out and curse yourself for your "poor ways" (lapse in judgment, really. We all have them from time to time), and continue on your way.

If you don't have the money you are screwed and ground down by the bloodsucker tow companies who keep piling on unconscionably high daily fees and by a society that allows it to happen — predatory capitalism really. You can lose your car, job, etc.

The larger question is, are poor people at fault for not being vigilant at all times in avoiding the 24-7 pocketbook grabs of a society that continually extracts money and funnels it upward, or is the society at fault for not providing more of a safety net for those that can't always cough up hundreds or even thousands in tow fees?

[Recursion]

241. That's the worst part: being poor gives you a series of bad options

e.g., I wasn't stupid. I knew check cashing stores were ripoffs. But once I had lost my bank account and couldn't get another one, I had to choose between that or inconveniencing a friend to sign a check over to them.

I was well aware at the time of what a bad option check cashing places are. But one of the worst things about poverty is it makes you a reluctant but conscious agent of your own downfall.

[AtheistCrusader]

288. I've come to discover, any post that starts with 'so', is either a strawman or wild misconstrual.

That poster did NOT indicate it was the victim's fault. It was commentary on a problem.

[brush]

296. I was not responding to the OP but to the . . .

who quoted their mother saying — "poor people have poor ways".

That sure sounds like victim blaming to me.

The misconstrual seems to be yours.

[AtheistCrusader]

297. It is not victim blaming at all.

It's only a negative comment about society and privilege.

[brush]

298. Better watch it . . .

Last edited Thu Dec 11, 2014, 02:12 PM - Edit history (1)

you're getting dangerously close to agreeing to that being victim blaming with your phrase "negative comment about society and privilege."

We'll just have to agree to disagree because IMO the phrase, "poor people have poor ways" is so lacking in empathy with its nose-in-the-air haughtiness that I, and I'm betting most other progressives, would decidedly catch its underlying and not so subtle message as victim blaming.

Guess it's how one's brain is wired, a huge disconnect between progressives and wingers.

[AtheistCrusader]

299. I don't need to watch anything. I understood post 3 when I read it the first time. Let me know when

you figure out what it actually means.


Because you are missing it by a mile.

Edit: madokie even warned everyone up front that it takes a little thought to really get what it means.
Because yes, people here on DU are certainly mocking the poor, just because you didn't understand that post at first glance.

[AtheistCrusader]

300. Actually, I'm going to leave my previous response intact, but I'm going to take a step back and try

something different.

Because I just searched for that phrase, and I can see a lot of right wingers do, in fact, use and embrace the meaning of the term that you felt was the usage here.

It's got more than one interpretation. Having been poor, I understand it. Compare and contrast, today, I have a decent car, 9 months into a 36 month purchase. I have a good job. I have a great boss.

If my car gets towed, I have luxuries that the poor, in the same predicament, would not have. I can potentially just pay the impound. If not, I can finance it, because I am not tapped out, surviving day to day, paycheck to paycheck, in debt. I can take the time off from work to go get the thing from the impound on the odd hours it's open at all, etc. Car's missing, I'm calling the cops, calling tow companies, triggering the lojack, you name it.

Poor person? Maybe can't move the car 3x a day because of parking limits, or the car got a call for being shabby or whatever, and they towed it because of an old parking ticket that wasn't paid because it was pay the ticket or eat, not both. They can't get off work, most likely, or can't afford to take the time out of their hours to go get the car, let alone call around and see which impound lot HAS the car. The car sits another day. Fees accrue. No credit, or tapped out credit. Pretty soon, it's cheaper to just let the car go, for them, and they will. Late to work because of it, lose your job, you don't go after a wrongful termination suit, like a comfortable middle-class worker might when you're poor. It's not even an option.

Letting things go, not fighting for their property, or their rights, just scraping by surviving, paycheck to paycheck, these are survival coping mechanisms that you develop when you have no resources and no options. Those 'poor ways' are survival adaptations. Not the cause of their poverty.

The game is different when you're poor. The rules are different. The deck is stacked against you, and there are barriers and burdens on all sides, and no way out. That was the point of the OP's article. It's just not he same world for the poor. That was the point of Madokie's post. That's how I interpreted it anyway, and the 'this was hard to understand' disclaimer gave it away, for me, anyway.

if it turns out I was wrong, that that was a boostrappy, 'you're poor because you're stupid' comment, I will come back and eat all these words. But I am confident that is not the case.


I take a step back and say this, because I can see, that phrase is ALSO used by certain cliques that want to blame poor people for being poor. I'm giving Madokie benefit of the doubt that the OTHER meaning is what he was going after. If that was a comment, as you interpreted it,

[brush]

301. Kudos to you . . .

for this post showing you can see the other side.

[daleanime]

17. ........

[chervilant]

24. Give that some thought?

Why don't you explain how you "get it"? I cannot even begin to "get it."

[adirondacker]

29. Perhaps a bit of irony From the commenter's tagline "one must work hard to remain stupid"

I guess some of us have to work harder chervilant

[chervilant]

35. I guess I find that DUer's sentiment rather arrogant.

I have long felt extremely thankful that I had an "aha" experience that enabled me to get outside my ego box, and make an honest inventory of the coping strategies I developed growing up in abuse, so that I could offload those strategies that were no longer helpful and nurture strategies that helped me grow emotionally and spiritually.

When I had that epiphany, I discovered that my ability to empathize was an invaluable tool in my advocacy tool box, and I've spent the last thirty plus years advocating for survivors of relationship violence (there are lots of us). Among my insights: as a general rule, people do not choose to be poor. Additionally, poor decision-making is not the exclusive milieu of the poor. As someone observed herein above: for someone living in poverty, often the choice is between something bad and something worse.

I struggle with understanding bigotry and hate. I cannot wrap my mind around expending all that energy nurturing negativity.

[daleanime]

71. +1

[chervilant]

73. We have to have each others' backs, don't we?

I am in awe of a young person I just discovered here on DU and I think everyone should see him. Hope you don't mind me sharing.

[daleanime]

75. Not at all, had bookmarked it earlier to watch later....

but at your recommendation just watched....


need to take a break now and wash up. That....was surprisingly powerful. I may finally have to start up on facebook in order to get certain family members to watch that. Thanks for sharing.

[chervilant]

79. Right backatcha!

Thanks for watching, and I plan to post that clip all over!

[Long Drive]

90. I think you misunderstood what madokie meant

It was not slur on poor people having poor judgment or behavior, it was highlighting that poor folks have NO recourse to right the wrongs done to them.

[chervilant]

224. hmm...

I would hope that's the intent. It doesn't sound like a supportive statement, on the face of it.

[tenderfoot]

233. okay...

I've never heard the quote but your explanation does shine a new light on it.

Thank you for that.

[shireen]

105. amazing!

I've read some of Joseph Campbell's work … this reminds me of the shape shifter archetype. The evil that the hero must conquer. It's a recurring theme in mythologies from all over the world spanning the ages.

Perhaps what we need are new mythologies to better define this evil, give it an identity. The troll was an excellent example. Definitely a must share item.

[chervilant]

225. I will be looking for more of this young philosopher's work. n/t

[DawgHouse]

207. Well said n/t

[tenderfoot]

34. I gave that some thought and think...

Last edited Tue Dec 9, 2014, 01:07 AM - Edit history (2)

I got you wrong at first. I assume that "Poor people have poor ways." is what longdrive stated in another post "It was not slur on poor people having poor judgment or behavior, it was highlighting that poor folks have NO recourse to right the wrongs done to them."

My apology for not getting that at first.

I hope that's what you meant btw.

[nomorenomore08]

304. "Poor people have poor options to choose from" might've been a better way to put it.

As it was, people misconstrued the comment quite easily.

[phil89]

59. Pretty absurd sentiment

blaming people for things largely beyond their control isn't helpful.

[Gormy Cuss]

63. Isn't that what the OP says?

Poor people have poor ways that keep them poor, like not having the money to pick up their vehicle from a tow yard.

[dumbcat]

117. Or doing something to get their car towed?

" It was my own fault that I’d been towed, really, ..."

[Gormy Cuss]

137. Because no middle class person ever had a car towed for something that was her own fault...

Grasping at straws, are you?

[dumbcat]

139. Lots of middle class people have had their cars towed

for something that was their own fault. And they have the resources to retrieve them. Poor people don't, because they are poor.

I don't need to grasp any straws.

[Gormy Cuss]

141. Then stop grasping.

You used the sole example of her car being towed to support the "Poor people have poor ways" assertion, which apparently was being held out as an explanation of why the poor are poor. Do you not see how ridiculous that claim is?

[dumbcat]

183. No.

[bhikkhu]

86. I've been there, and I know what the saying means

If you have money and your car gets towed you just pay the bill and get it back, you take care of it. If you don't have money, immediately its a desperate problem you know you probably can't solve - helplessness takes over. When living day to day takes everything you've got, just one more thing puts you into overload and you shut down; "poor ways". You could try to negotiate fees, but you know the company doesn't give a crap, and its not easy to walk into an office where you know they'll humiliate you and joke about it after you've gone. You could go to the city and ask about recourse, but probably get the run-around and more condescension. You could go to the court and challenge the fees, but that takes time and money, and who has those to spare?

I lost a car to an impound lot once, and then to the bank where it was auctioned off for a pittance and I was sent a large bill for the balance of the loan. Ended up in a bankruptcy after a year of great stress. I could have paid it off, I figured, if I worked like a dog and scrimped for 5 years...but there wasn't really any point. Several things I did wrong and could have done better, but its hard to make all the right moves and all the right decisions when just living day to day takes everything you've got.

In my case I was lucky - my brother lent me a car he wasn't using for a year, and in the long run the bankruptcy was "lesson learned". I haven't had any significant credit card balance or bought a car on payments since.

[Kalidurga]

93. No you completely miss the meaning

Not everyone has family that can help them out many times the rest of their family is as bad off or worse than they are. You had a brother with a car.

Let me tell you what that saying really means. It means if you are poor it's your fault no exeptions.

[Marr]

114. That's exactly what it means. /nt

[dumbcat]

120. Do you mind me asking how

you lost your car to an impound lot? What was the reason it got there? Not casting stones, just trying to understand.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

205. I lost my truck to a tow lot --

It had been stolen -- some bumper damage from where they plowed into another car -- and then recovered. It had taken a full week for the written notification from the City to get to me by mail. By that time the truck had accrued $700 in fees. The City had just rescinded the rights of people whose vehicles were stolen from having their fees waived. I could not pay the money. My title was handed over in "payment" and the truck was sold at auction.

I was victimized. Twice.

[bhikkhu]

217. It was leased in WA where I had lived, and my employer tranferred me to NJ

I tried to get NJ plates, but the fine print in the lease agreement wouldn't allow it to be registered off the west coast. After a busy month getting settled the registration had expired and I was still trying to figure out what to do, but I had no option but to keep driving it. One day I was driving home from work and a cop pulled me over for expired tags. In spite of good explanations and good intentions (I thought), the police impounded the car. I tried to get it back or sorted out by various means, but they would only release it to the bank holding the lease, which shipped it back to WA and auctioned it off. They wouldn't even let me get my clothes and music out of it.

My bill for all that was $10,000, and collections efforts began soon after...

[noiretextatique]

242. a busybody in my neighborhood called the cops because my window was broken

Last edited Tue Dec 9, 2014, 06:30 AM - Edit history (1)

and they towed my car. by the time i found out it was towed, not stolen, the fees were over $700.00...for less than a week of storage. it is a MAJOR ripoff, and i am sure someone in city hall is getting some kickbacks. cops too.

[shaayecanaan]

249. that fucking sucks

This has been an eye opening thread. What a stinkingly corrupt miasma of shit local government can be.

[noiretextatique]

302. legal extortion

that impacts the poorest the most. yet another poor tax.

[jwirr]

132. One set of laws (ways) for the rich and another for the poor. Ferguson MO is a good example. The

Police Department was expected to arrest and continue to harass the blacks in the community to collect fines so that their department could pay for itself. I wonder who in the white community was getting arrested to pay for their police protection?

[prayin4rain]

188. Ah, you inherited your mom's slave mentality. I'm sorry. n/t

[jtuck004]

219. Your mother was a Republican? Because that's core to conservative beliefs.n/t

[Hissyspit]

236. Why not just explain it?

[Chemisse]

245. Most of us are just a few paychecks away from this kind of poverty.

There but for the grace of the gods go I - and you.

[alarimer]

4. Lots of poor-people bashing in comments

Mostly by one commenter who seems to think she made "poor decisions" and seems to fail at empathy.

Sure people make poor decisions all the time, but most of us won't lose our jobs or homes because of it. If you are on the very edge of survival, you will.

This is someone who is actually living "Nickel and Dimed".

[justabob]

8. those poor decisions

What kills me about those folks who like to bash on poor people saying they made bad decisions, poor choices..... no, more likely there was not a "good" option to choose from. That is what people fail to grasp. Very often, the options are between something horrendous and something much worse.

[xchrom]

9. +1

[unblock]

13. as if rich people don't make poor decisions. the consequences are rather different

as in the example above, if a rich person managed to get their car impounded, they could easily enough bail it out for a hundred or whatever and be done with it. they could find a way to do without their car easily enough if need be, call a cab or rent a car.

at no point would their poor decision lead to the kind of expense told in the op.

[justabob]

16. right

Rich people make bad choices all the time, it just doesn't have the same impact on their life. *Everything* costs more when you're poor, and even the slightest mistake, or accident, or smallest emergency could have life altering consequences. Not so for the more comfortable, and especially the wealthy.

[Android3.14]

78. Hence the avoidance of poverty

That's the very definition of poor. If services, fees and items cost less based on a person's income, the word, poor, would have little meaning.

[joeglow3]

18. I can be empathetic, but also question

I agree with the overall crux of the article, but have learned to ask for more information before forming an opinion on a single case. I have one friend who has always lived on government assistance. They have had bad luck, but also made very shitty decisions.

The one thing that stuck out to me in the article was when the individual said they lost their job because they were late when their car broke down. While I know they exist, I have yet to see a job where any employer would do that. This friend of mine once told me the same thing happened to him. What he originally omitted was that he was on probation because he was not a morning person and had been late near a dozen times in the last 3-4 months.

I don't know what the answer is, but I know we cannot cut of people's monetary assistance unless we want to see people literally dying in the streets and an ultimate uprising.

[justabob]

26. well

I don't mean to imply that bad decisions are not made, ever, just that poor people do NOT have the full range of options that people with money or resources have. Things that you might take for granted, don't exist for a large number of people. That gap makes it hard for upper range people to understand, I think. And in any case, it isn't about parking and transportation.... everyday poor people have to fight off predatory and or financially treacherous situations like this all day long, from every direction... on top of their jobs, kids, etc. It is exhausting and poor people have to spot it every single time or risk having their life fall completely apart, and then have the added bonus of being judged for it.

As for the being fired for lateness.... I have no idea. Some places *are* strict about certain rules.... who knows?

[joeglow3]

37. I agree. I do think we need to educate people on better choices

In no way do I mean that to victim blame and I certainly don't advocate cutting benefits. I am just saying that more education is never a bad thing.

I am fortunate enough to be doing alright and I have Sirius XM. Last night, I was listening to the college sports channel and a commercial came on directed towards people with credit scores below 500, buying a house. Statistically, people who have a credit score below 500 are most likely not in a financial situation where they should be paying for Sirius XM. Yes, there are exceptions (it was a few years ago and my luck turned around, I am in my friends car, etc.), but relying on those exceptions hardly seems like a good investment of your advertising dollars. Reality is that, as a whole, we live in a credit card society and they know there are plenty of people who fit the demographic, but still find a way to pay for Sirius.

Again, I don't blame the people and do not advocate not helping them out, but there is a strong need to educate our populace. Something tells me that there is too much money at stake for companies for them to allow any government program educating people on those evils though.

[brush]

76. You're on to something with education being needed . . .

and how some 'players' have stakes in not allowing some government program helping people to get educated on financial predators.

Ironically some of those biggest financial predators are for-profit college debt mills that have figured out a way to bleed government loan programs that get their students in humongous financial holes but stuff their own coffers with taxpayer cash.

And then on the other side of the education spectrum, legitimate colleges are being price out of the reach of not just poor people who need education, but most people as tuition costs to credited 4-year schools is climbing towards 50-100k a year.

Who can afford that also without going into humongous financial holes?

[One_Life_To_Give]

181. Wish I had the resources to do it as a Non-Profit

I keep thinking what would a George Bailey do.

[Curmudgeoness]

211. Although I don't disagree with the need for education,

especially in how to make budgets, avoid scams, and stretch dollars. But that is not the only help that people who are poor face. Think about these things:

Living in poor neighborhoods mean that you may not have access to grocery stores, and the stores that are there are very expensive, with less fresh food and more packaged items.

You have to go to slimy car dealers to get a car because you don't make enough to get credit at a decent rate for a car that will run further than 10 miles from the lot. And you need a car to get to work. There are more areas in this country without reliable public transportation than there are with it....only cities do that well.

You have to use check cashing companies to cash your payroll check because you don't have a bank account, probably because you don't have enough money to keep spare cash in the bank.

You try to save, but because your car is old, and your landlord will not fix anything or you own an affordable house that is old, you seem to always have one emergency after another that will take every penny you have saved....all the time.

Poor people can do all that is possible to get ahead, but it isn't that easy. You can teach them that they should not go to rent-to-own places for furniture, and let them know about the extreme charges for not having a bank account, but if they do not have access to anything else, they will just have more information on how bad they are being screwed instead of information of how to stop the screwing.

[sweetapogee]

234. i agree with you

I don't think that "we" need to take it upon ourselves to educate others but you are correct. My partner and I started out together very lean in the finances. Our cars were quite important to us as they were necessary for us to get to work. For that reason, we drove them carefully and we performed scheduled maintenance ourselves to save money. I have always been careful where I park my car, I don't want to get towed or have someone hit it or otherwise damage it or steal it or something inside it. So I've never had my car towed or even got a parking ticket.

Once I went out drinking with a friend. He drove his car and parked in a posted area. I commented to him that I thought it was a bad idea to park there but he thought otherwise. When we came out of the club, the car had been towed. He was really pissed but I mean there was a sign there big as day stating no parking. This friend really thought he had a special right to park where he wanted but as for me I rather walk two blocks knowing that my evening will not be marred by the unnecessary cost. If something like a car is important to you, take care of it and drive/park responsibly. This even if the car is beat up, if you need it, take care of it.

If a person is living right on the edge of financial disaster, it really doesn't matter if a fine is $10.00 or $100.00 If you have no money, you have no money and can't pay either amount. I had a car once that was probably worth literally $100.00 If it had been towed and the cost to get it back was let's say $250.00, I might have just simply let the impound lot keep it. But if the car was worth $15,000.00 then chances are I would have been able to scrape up a few hundred to get it back. Call me old fashioned but my priority has always been housing, food, transportation, work clothing. Getting to work is important to me so I make sure transportation is available. We did not have a TV for our first two years together and then only when we were given on as a gift.

I'm not trying to lecture or offend anyone, shit do happen, i get that. But the times when I didn't have any money were the times that I paid close attention to things that could put an unnecessary strain on the financial happiness. Parking is really one of the reasons why I don't care for being in a city. Even to this day, although I drive a Benz, I still do all of my maintenance and I have a beater that I use when I'm going someplace where I'm going to be parked in either a high crime area or say at school where some of the students are careless in the parking lot.

[treestar]

246. The "bad decision" punishes the poor person more than the same

bad decision would punish a person with enough money to deal with it.

Like fines being at set amounts, the richer you are, the less punished you are by paying a fine.

[Dont call me Shirley]

27. There are plenty of employerss who will fire people who are down on their luck. They don't want

employees who are down on their luck to "pull the business down". They don't want to expend the time or energy to help their employees pull themselves up either. They don't want to pay a decent wage, health insurance, etc so their employees don't have to live one paycheck away from disaster. This is today's employment reality.

[Rozlee]

82. Hear, hear!

When I was a single mother making minimum wages and the school would call me that one of my kids was sick, I would have to leave work and go pick them up. I'd have to take the bus, pick them up, take them to the doctor and miss a day of work, maybe more if he or she was too sick to go in for a few days. If my baby had diarrhea, I'd have to take them out for 48 hours. That was the policy. I'd get fired. Minimum wage workers were a dime a dozen. Today, my daughter makes a 6 figure income. I sacrificed a lot to make sure they learned the value of a good education so they wouldn't be in the position I'm in. Her boss let's her take all the time off she needs to go on appointments for my grandson who has Asperger's and my granddaughter who has Goldenhar syndrome. If the school calls to tell her my grandson had a meltdown, no problem. She leaves and drops him off with me. She's a valuable employee. I don't resent this. Sure, I'm bragging. I'm proud of her. But, her reality is so different from mine. If one or two of my children had handicaps or had special needs, I would never have been able to work or finish my education. I would have gotten trapped in the endless cycle of poverty and dependency.

[Long Drive]

96. Sorry it was hard for you, but you did GOOD

And your daughter is proof of that. Again as a single mom I KNOW how hard you worked.

[Rozlee]

212. Thank you.

[Dont call me Shirley]

276. You deserve this...

[Rozlee]

286. Thank you.

[Prophet 451]

31. This is called the fundemental attribution error

It's a psychological bias that means that when we do something wrong, we are almost certain to attribute it to outside causes but when someone else does something wrong, we are almost certain to attribute it to them as a person.

What the article actually said was that they wwere repeatedly late for work due to their car being impounded and they lost their job as a result. That happens all the time and would have been the case with every employer I know.

[jeff47]

58. "I have yet to see a job where any employer would do that."

Try every single large retail employer if you want to start looking. For example, Home Depot's policy is to fire you if you're more than 5 minutes late, twice.

Get on the manager's shit list because you do something like call in sick, and you'll be fired very quickly for any trivial offense.

[joeglow3]

64. Never worked at Home Depot, so I take your word for it

I have worked retail and grocery and never had issues coming in late or being sick. However, those instances were few and far between. Couple that with my willingness to help out if I could when others were late or sick and I never had a problem. The people who did get fired were those who matched normal people's numbers for 6 months in the first week or two.

[jeff47]

67. In other words, it's always the poor person's fault.

The people who did get fired were those who matched normal people's numbers for 6 months in the first week or two.

In other words, it's always the poor person's fault.

As for Home Depot, the policy is to fire. Doesn't mean the managers have to do so.

The companies do this because it gives the managers leverage to fire the people they don't like. Couple it with things like bouncing shifts (Close on Monday, open on Tuesday, close on Wednesday, and so on. Open is 6am. Close gets out at 12am.) and a manager can easily engineer enough justification to fire anyone.

The managers liked me, so I wasn't fired when shit happened and I was late. Others were not liked, and were fired quickly.

[joeglow3]

77. If by "other words" you mean "shit you pulled out of your ass", then yes

[jeff47]

92. Except you keep only talking about situations where it was the poor person's fault

Such as:

The people who did get fired were those who matched normal people's numbers for 6 months in the first week or two.

And:

This friend of mine once told me the same thing happened to him. What he originally omitted was that he was on probation because he was not a morning person and had been late near a dozen times in the last 3-4 months.

So....you keep providing these examples, and want more information before judging.....for entertainment value?

You "have yet to see a job where any employer would do that." is relevant because......?

It doesn't take much effort to add two and two together.

[joeglow3]

95. We are discussing a story filled with those examples.

If you want examples, just go back and re-read the story.

[Long Drive]

99. I re read the story and than re read your posts

You have an axe to grind. Not a helpful one, but a hateful one.

[joeglow3]

107. You see it as hateful. Sorry about that. I see it as trying to help & not just commiserate

I agree that shit happens, it is unfair and we NEED a government provided safety net to help out.

However, I also admit that none of this shit is changing (except, maybe less money coming from the government). Thus, we can do things to try and mitigate that. I am not saying it is fair or right, just reality.

I think back to when I was a pizza delivery driver. Almost every night, I would double what the next highest driver collected in tips. The reason why was that I tried to be presentable (still wore the basic uniform and hat) and was nothing but polite to the customers (even the assholes).

I am not blaming any individual, as shit happens to everyone and the poor are the least equipped to weather it. That said, there are things we can do to differentiate ourselves and help mitigate these issues. Sorry if you see trying to help out with that as "hateful."

[BlindTiresias]

127. naw

it is pretty clear what your angle is.

[joeglow3]

128. You got everything figured out, huh?

Easier to just toss out labels than to have a discussion, isn't it?

[BlindTiresias]

130. You did the work for me, admittedly.

Your comments do more than enough to educate a third party (me) on your right wing character without having to engage you, and apparently others agree, so...

[joeglow3]

134. If you are being honest, then good day. However, that is an all too common defense mechanism

If I can't discuss an issue, I will call you racist, a right wing troll, etc. That way, I don't have to discuss the issue and can still claim victory because no one would agree with the racist or the right wing troll.

If we want a thread with scores of posts circle jerking and all saying "that is fucking bull shit", then so be it. I would rather discuss reality, perceptions and what we can do to overcome the, albeit unfair, system. If you see that as "right wing character" then so be it.

[BlindTiresias]

136. I'm being honest

You come off as yet another right wing libertarian type and are utilizing their anti-labor talking points in an almost textbook fashion, perhaps unwittingly, but the effect is still the same.

[joeglow3]

142. Not my intention

I am not blaming anyone, but am also willing to challenge things that, if remedied, could improve someone's life. As I mentioned above, I am in a decent spot and, therefore, can afford Sirius satellite radio. Last night, on channel 91 (college sports), there was a commercial geared for people with credit scores in the 400's and below. While exceptions exist (someone who has clawed out of their hole but still have a shit credit score, paid for a long term contract and hit problems later, someone in a friend's/family members car, etc.) the majority of their target demographic probably shouldn't be spending their money on satellite radio. Now unless they have a shit research department, they feel they are reaching a reasonable number of their target demographic on satellite radio.

Part of this is because we train people to buy shit they can't afford from day 1. I read an article about the loyalty people show to their first credit card. This explains why my college campus was flooded with these leeches, fighting to give credit cards to there 18 year olds with no credit.

The reality is that all of us make mistakes and, at times, don't even know better. educating people is not a bad thing. The only people I see opposing it are the companies looking to lose out.

[BlindTiresias]

145. Uh

Maybe because the economic downturn has slammed a lot of people who may have enough income to afford the modest price of Sirius sat radio but who still have bad credit?

It is amusing in your attempt to look moderate you actually went on a thinly veiled "blame the poor" position with weak anti-corporate populist gesture. As I said before, right winger spotted and it is pretty damn obvious.

[joeglow3]

148. Read above. This is ALL the fault of greedy corporations. We are faced with 2 options:

1. Sit around and bitch about it in an echo chamber, while not a god damn thing changes, or
2. Recognize the game, turn it against them and force change by weakening them.

I choose 2 and you choose 1. Different strokes.

[BlindTiresias]

163. Lol

More like option 2 for you is:

"Blame the workers, try and find some fault with them and excuse the behavior of employers while stating that you have never seen employer abuse so therefore it is limited and the fault of employees. Make a comment about the rich extending credit to the poor, but blame the poor and say they should simply live with less and offer no further suggestions."

In your attempts to make yourself look rational and moderate you keep digging that hole deeper and outing yourself as a right winger. Sorry, guy, maybe you should quit while you are ahead?

[treestar]

247. Bet they should not have cell phones either

What use are status symbols of the hoi poloi end up having them.

Maybe you can find something that puts Sirius radio in the dust. Having that will restore that feeling of being more successful than other people.

[joeglow3]

260. I am 37 and now make right at 100k. Got my first cell phone 2 years ago

Amazing what people see as necessities today.

[ancianita]

252. Been poor, too, and know the strategies you use to get extra money; you don't sound right wing.

Poverty causes anyone of any political stripe to rethink of all the habits they grew up with -- from driving and parking, to sleeping, eating and entertainment habits. Total frugality and discipline are needed so that people can maximize their health, transportation options, planning time and living within their means -- which is about living within one's means.

Living within one's means, and not being a victim of one's own bad habits. Easy money predators are everywhere. Temptations are everywhere when one is desperate. One stupid mistake can set anyone back. But mindless personal behaviors can also put one back, as well. Paying attention to the consequences of cutting corners is needed, even if the life is wearying.

[smokey nj]

143. You are correct and he's not just anti-labor.

Take a look at this subthread in a thread about abortion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5881063

[BlindTiresias]

144. Wow

I'm surprised a clear right winger has survived with that many posts, must be good on keeping a lid on the crazy that is undoubtedly simmering just below the surface.

[joeglow3]

152. What was wrong with that subthread

I NEVER once advocated for a position. I simply said I hate debating that issue because people on BOTH sides only look at the issue through one lens (theirs) and then assign horrible attributes to the other side based on their perspective. People on here will fight to say their views are correct (validated by your post) and people on the other side will do the same. In the end, both people end up thinking extremely poorly of the other and nothing has changed.

Yeah, that makes me a right winger."

[smokey nj]

155. Bullshit. Just bullshit.

[joeglow3]

158. Then cite the bullshit.

Just making that claim doesn't make it so.

[smokey nj]

162. It's all in the subthread for everyone to see.

[joeglow3]

168. Then cite it.

where did I advocate a position?

[BlindTiresias]

165. reading the thread now

You come off as a right wing anti-choicer trying to disguise your position with a really weak act at being a moderate.

[smokey nj]

177. And we have a winner!!!

Although, I prefer the term "anti-choice."

[BlindTiresias]

178. good point

[BlindTiresias]

160. Just trying to consider the issue!

*offers right wing talking point*

You aren't fooling anyone.

[joeglow3]

151. Anti-labor? Where the hell did that come from?

The posts this weekend when the echo chamber was demanding we weaken the police labor unions without any consideration for the consequences it may have on all other labor unions? Oh yeah, I was standing up for labor's rights. Nice try though.

[smokey nj]

153. From you're victim-blaming posts in this thread.

I'm glad most people see how utterly clueless you are when it comes to the plight of the poor.

[joeglow3]

164. I spent 3-4 years of my adult life poor.

Obviously, there are degrees of poor and I was not on the bottom. I was also fortunate enough to not have any kids, as that makes things a hundred times more difficult.

That said, when I was poor, I worked a day job for $7.50 an hour and spent 40-60 hours a week delivering pizzas on evenings and weekends. I lived in a shitty apartment, ate cheap food and fought to stay awake. When I was taking college classes, I was still working 35-40 hours a week.

I am not victim blaming. However, you are extremely naive if you think there is nothing that someone in that situation can do to try and make the climb back up a little more attainable (although it may be unpleasant and painful). Doesn't mean the system is working properly. Doesn't mean we shouldn't work to improve/fix the system. It just means there are things we can do until that time comes (if ever).

It is clear you mind is made up about me and I can accept that. I too need to accept the way things are and not worry about the opinion of a few people. Thanks for the discussion and I wish for the best for you.

[BlindTiresias]

167. Lol

"Bootstraps" argument, then smokescreen.

[joeglow3]

171. I'm done.

You have offered nothing but personal attacks and thoughtless responses. I have other threads where intellectual discussions are occurring where I would rather focus my time. You can feel great about beating the "right wing troll" without ever offering a point/counterpoint. It appears you need to moral victory anyway.

I hope you have a wonderful day.

[BlindTiresias]

173. Concession accepted.

I agree you are a right winger, not sure about the troll part though.

[smokey nj]

172. More cluelessness and victim blaming.

[BlindTiresias]

161. Nice try

Cop unions are the only unions the right wingers defend. If we take your defense of cop unions with your disparaging workers in aggregate you get a pretty right wing position.

As I said, you aren't fooling anyone.

[joeglow3]

166. I was far from the only pro-labor person who recognized the idiocy of weakening any public union

It is just knee-jerk people who don't think their actions through that would advocate such a narrow minded position. And you seem tho think it is great to weaken labor unions if you don't like the people in said union. Smart move.

[BlindTiresias]

169. Nope

You are anti-labor here, but pro cop union there. This says nothing about the validity of public sector unions but when taken into aggregate says a lot about you.

Admirable, if feeble, attempt at reversing this though.


(Right Winger)

[joeglow3]

175. Yep

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5914740

[BlindTiresias]

176. Says nothing

You are still defending a cop union while simultaneously disparaging labor and excusing the bad behavior of employers, or, in this thread, minimizing or saying it doesn't exist. My argument stands, you are making pro cop union there and anti-labor arguments here, which is not really a rarity among the right wing and is in fact the dominant position in the right.

[joeglow3]

180. Here is a great sub thread from that post to read

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025906316#post32

Where the hell did I make a pro labor argument here? All I said is I have never seen an employer that would fire someone if they were late one day (especially when it is because their car broke). I am sure they exist and if I was ever exposed to one, I would make it my personal agenda to make sure everyone on the internet knew the story, the company involved and the manager involved.

Life sucks, but it involves some ass kissing. I have gotten along well with most of my bosses and those that I didn't I left (may have taken a while to find a job, but I sucked it up until the point in time I could leave them for someone else). If you can build a good professional relationship with your boss, you tend to be better off.

I am most certainly not saying it is the fault of the individual.

Also, keep in mind, I am stuck looking at this through the lens of an anti union state (the only unions with power here are public sector unions). Clearly, if we could get unions for all jobs, none of this would be an issue.

[ancianita]

257. You're desperate to nail someone. What can you possibly get out of it.

You talk as if you've stalked this guy's posts, and in general, you talk as if any idea or opinion one might have in common with a political opponent makes someone some kind of traitor to your party.

Poster's badgering and recriminations make this place a pit of snipes. No one should be a political purist when it comes to looking clearly at poverty. Poverty is both systemic and personal. That one's experience makes someone ean more toward the one over the other doesn't make one a political turncoat.

[BlindTiresias]

267. yeah?

So hypothetically if someone is anti-labor, anti-choice, racist, and loves foreign wars they are still welcome? You gotta have standards or your political position is worthless as it encompasses anything.

If the guy has right wing positions then he is right wing. It is up to him whether he wants to investigate his assumed ideological content or not.

[ancianita]

273. I read his words differently. Didn't think they were all that contestable. Surprised at how you got

all that from his posts.

[BlindTiresias]

274. I said hypothetically

It was your assertion we should have no standards, so I presented a hypothetical. I am assuming you didn't like the conclusion of your own position?

[LanternWaste]

272. If enough readers are inferring the same thing from your posts

If enough readers are inferring the same thing from your posts, possibly there's a valid reason for it, regardless of whether we hide behind our implications and pretend otherwise.

[Long Drive]

149. Oh Dear

I got your gist the first time Joe. This post isn't changing my mind. But you do love the term mitigate don't you?

[jeff47]

110. If that were true, you wouldn't have dismissed the examples in the article

With a trite "need more information to judge". Followed only by examples where the problems were definitely caused by the poor person.

If you don't want to blame poor people, it's really easy. Stop blaming them.

[joeglow3]

119. see post 107 above

[jeff47]

121. Where you blame the individuals yet claim to not blame the individuals.

I must admit doing it in the next sentence is pretty gutsy.

I think back to when I was a pizza delivery driver. Almost every night, I would double what the next highest driver collected in tips. The reason why was that I tried to be presentable (still wore the basic uniform and hat) and was nothing but polite to the customers (even the assholes).

I am not blaming any individual

[joeglow3]

122. No. Where you claim to use reading comprehension and yet don't use reading comprehension.

[jeff47]

266. You claimed the other drivers were poor because they didn't behave the way you did.

That is blaming those individuals.

Your unwillingness to see it is largely because you don't want to be the guy blaming poor people. But you keep doing that over and over again.

[Long Drive]

154. Great point

His reply to you needs to be alerted on. That is bullying.

[joeglow3]

174. Good thing I am done in this thread.

[Long Drive]

186. Oh Joy!!!!!! n/t

[Jake Stern]

108. Yes there are asshole bosses aplenty who delight in treating their employees

like shit. On the other hand, there are some employees come in with an "I don't give a f**k, I'm just here to get a paycheck" attitude.

Always have cultivated a good working relationship with my supervisors and, yes, it has saved my job.

[DawgHouse]

208. This is true for more companies than the average person realizes.

I worked for a company once who wouldn't hire you if you didn't have a car and had to rely on public transportation. Why? Because, well, what if the bus was late one morning and you weren't on time?

[Brigid]

307. What they forget is . . .

It is far from unknown for a car to.break down.

[DawgHouse]

310. Yes, it's ridiculous and was really only a way to keep poor people down. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

66. Firing a worker for tardiness is not uncommon in low wage, low skill jobs

because the employer can replace them cheaply with someone who will be there on time every day. Some bosses are inflexible enough to lack understanding when an otherwise good employee has a crisis, whether it be lack of reliable transportation or a sick child.

It's the way of at will employment .

[Orrex]

123. They don't usually fire you for not having a car

They fire you for missing (or being late for) work because you don't have a car.

While I know they exist, I have yet to see a job where any employer would do that.

I have never worked a job (nor, honestly, heard of one) where the employer would not do it.

[joeglow3]

125. Maybe I have been lucky

I read all the same stories as most on DU and am sickened by them. In my heart, I would like to believe the average employer is not some rich Wall Street fat cat laughing at people as they get screwed over. In my experience, my bosses were people not much better off than me, who wanted to help me out as much as they could. But, like I said, maybe I was lucky.

[Orrex]

126. Honestly, that's the right way to look at it.

You're recognizing the good results that you've experienced without faulting others for not finding the same good results.

Most of my bosses haven't been true fat-cats, but they've all had strict attendance/tardiness requirements and enforced them aggressively. I suspect that this is fairly common, alas.

[BlindTiresias]

133. You are either blind or lying

I've seen someone get fired for not showing up to work in a genuine blizzard, for a customer complaint filed on a day when they weren't even on shift, and on absolutely made up nonsense. Sorry for your Panglossian Just World attitude, but you are delusional.

[joeglow3]

135. Would you name these companies?

If I ever witnessed something as egregious as that, I would make it my personal internet crusade to bring all the attention in the world to the company and the manager.

[upaloopa]

157. It always got to me that we watch the clock

on the people who are paid the least. We make them click in and out on a machine so they can't cheat. They usually get the least time off. The may have kids but no money for day care or doctors. I see a woman on our bus with her kid every morning. It is hard not to be late with a kid to get care for each day.
Our society could do a lot to help poor people but we don't.

[laundry_queen]

237. That's so true

I'm super lucky my work is extremely forgiving with tardiness...many of my co-workers take public transportation and it's rarely right on time in the winter. I'm normally early (I do have a vehicle, live where there is no public transportation so must commute in my car or sometimes I carpool) but once a month the traffic can be unexpectedly horrid (got stuck once on the highway that shut down for 4 hours...managed to exit and get to work 45 min late) My boss is very forgiving. Most min wage jobs are not like that at all.

I do feel for that woman on the bus. When my youngest was in child care, it was so hard to get away on time. Try leaving while your child is clinging to you and crying. (luckily for me that only happened once but I've seen other kids having to be peeled off their parents). It's super difficult. I'm a single parent and it's not easy to work and try to keep the household going. If my kid is sick, I'm it. It means I have to take that day off. Again, luckily for me, I have a degree and a decent job with an understanding boss who 'gets' the 'sick kid' thing. So many people are not as lucky as I am.

[moriah]

192. You seem to be coming from the mindset...

... that a car breaking down is something that is going to be resolved in a day. When you have a car without a warranty, and don't have an emergency fund to get whatever disabled your car fixed... not quite so easy. How long will an employer accept you being late, having to get rides with other people, etc? Reliable transportation is a must for any job, and not everyone lives in a city with public transportation.

For someone with enough money to fix a broken-down car quickly, no, being late once to work shouldn't cost them their job unless as you suggest there were other issues. Take away their car, as the assertion was made in the article happened due to towing fees, or to the other, more common thing -- a car broken down for an extended amount of time -- and yes, that can be catastrophic.

[joeglow3]

204. I agree completely

[Art_from_Ark]

228. I once had a co-worker who was fired because his car broke down

He didn't have enough money to cover the cost of repairs, and working for $5.50/gross with a two-week pay cycle, he had to rely on an unreliable ride to get to work until he could get his car fixed. Unfortunately, the company was extremely unsympathetic to his plight, and they fired him.

[Prophet 451]

33. When you are poor, there are often no good options

The best you can do is least bad. And the fucking public love to moralise at the poor, love to tell them what they should do or not do. Shouldn't smoke, shouldn't drink, shouldn't take drugs, shouldn't even fuck because you can't afford birth control. The genpop thinks the poor should live hand-to-mouth and be constantly hurling themselves to teh floor to kiss teh boots of everyone who pays taxes that provide the pitiful joke that amounts to welfare in both our countries. The genpop considers us useless eaters and would much rather we all killed ourselves.

[justabob]

38. best you can do is least bad

That is it right there.... and everything else you said.... <sigh>

[Tsiyu]

199. Here in TN, the poor pay significantly higher rates in taxes

than the wealthy.

There is no income tax, but a 9%+ tax on everything from food to kids clothing. That 9%+ may be chump change to the rich, but is a huge burden on the poor who must pay it every time they buy anything ( food stamp use makes food non-taxable, that's the only exception.)

So anyone who says the poor in TN "don't pay taxes" is full of it. They sacrifice a huge portion of their income to pay taxes, while the rich buddies of Haslam scream if they have to pay one cent in taxes. I imagine it's the same in a lot of states. The poor and working class keep the states going; the wealthy are the true TAX FREELOADERS.

Good post, Prophet 451

[Hissyspit]

194. +1000

[Prophet 451]

30. I managed to avoid the comments

but a friend told me that's what the comments were like. The GenPop in both our countries have been taught to absolutely despise the poor to the very depths of their being. Here (UK), there has been such a campaign of hatred aimed at benefits claimants by the media that physical assaults and suicides have resulted. All quietly encouraged by the sociopathic Tory bastards and their pet media (I pray for their agonising death nightly).

[alarimer]

201. In the US at least, it's all about "pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps"

Meaning, I guess, that we are supposed to look down on people who can't.

There's also a lot of "screw you, I've got mine" around.

I've have heard various theories for why this country is so stingy with the social safety net. Some of it is religious beliefs that tend to blame the less fortunate for being less fortunate. Some of it is this idea that anyone can be anything if they try hard enough, so if people don't make it, it's their own fault. We all forget sometimes that the playing field is not level. We've talked a lot about white privilege here, but there is a lot of class-based privilege too, a surprising amount for a society that claims to be classless.

[staggerleem]

61. Agreed, alarimer -

madokie appears to be a hit-and-run troll, as (s)he has yet to reply to any of our responses. Maybe that just what comes from living just north of Texas.

I'd be curious to know, what locality it is that has essentially stolen the OP's means of transportation (aka, FREEDOM to travel). Something tells me it's somewhere around Detroit, but I cannot find any facts to back that feeling up.

[alarimer]

198. I think losing a car is bad almost everywhere

Most places lack public transportation or it's inadequate where it does exist. Most of us are dependent on our vehicles for day-to-day living.

I've never been in a situation where I didn't have options if my car was in the shop. I've gotten rides from co-workers, etc.

I've had advantages that have kept my head above water even when I lost a job. My parents, for one thing, were willing to help me out while I was unemployed. Fortunately that only lasted a few months.

[Hissyspit]

193. +1000

[AngryOldDem]

281. No shit.

And she does have a book -- "Hand To Mouth," which Barbara Ehrenreich richly and deservedly praised. Ehrenreich was merely doing research. This was Torado's life.

Most people are just one financial hit away from being in her shoes. And it pisses me off greatly when some think it's all due to poor choices, living beyond one's means, etc. And I don't necessarily call Torado's decisions "poor." Sometimes you do what you got to do.

[MineralMan]

5. It happens a lot, sadly.

Here in Minnesota, most cities tow cars to an impound lot after heavy snowstorms before plowing streets. Rules for street parking are complex, but the streets have to be plowed for many reasons. Getting your car out of the impound lot costs more than many people have available, and people often lose their cars permanently.

The only solution is to be very, very careful about parking if you can't afford to bail your car out of the impound lot. It's a reality everyone has to keep in mind. Same with all parking violations that can lead to your car being towed. If you can't afford impound fees, you have to be meticulous about parking issues.

No question about it, those towing and storage feels are unreasonable. In some places, they're predatory. But getting that changed isn't in the cards, especially if you don't have much political clout. The only answer is to be extraordinarily focused on not getting towed.

[Fumesucker]

10. The only answer for a prey animal is to avoid predators

The poor as prey, I think that's fitting.

[MineralMan]

12. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

That's why prey animals have eyes that are on the sides of their heads, so they can watch for predators with a wider perspective. So, if you cannot do without your vehicle and since tow companies act as predators, you do have to keep that in mind at all times. That's not a good thing, but it's a reality.

After every heavy snow in my city of St. Paul, there's television coverage of all the vehicles that get towed, and interviews with people who can't get their car out of hock. Every time. Every heavy snow causes people to lose their cars. The city tries to get the word out about snow emergencies, and everyone knows that if there's more than 3" of snow, the city will plow. Ahead of the plows go the tow trucks, looking for cars parked where the plows will come through.

Why? Because every car on the street leaves about a 40' stretch of unplowed street. Over time, streets get narrower and narrower if the cars are there. So, the city has contracts with tow companies to get cars off the streets in snow emergencies, as they call them. They need to plow the entire street from curb to curb or streets get so narrow that emergency vehicles often can't pass down the street.

Parking in cities is tough. Lots of residential housing has limited or no off-street parking. That's especially true for low-income people, who don't have a driveway or garage. It's a royal pain in the butt to comply with winter parking rules. It truly is. There's also a lack of parking in business districts, where people go to work. Parking is expensive. And towing goes on all year to remove illegally parked cars.

There's no good solution, really, so anyone who cannot survive without a vehicle have to be very, very careful. The predators are always looking for ways to prey on people. Defensive avoidance is essential.

[logosoco]

19. Your post reminds me of some ideas that I have regarding alternative prison sentencing that

could perhaps work in this case.

If our government really worked for the people, we could have a system where, when someone gets their car towed and they don't have that kind of cash (which is understandable in this economy), why not have a program where they can use their time and energy instead. On the other side is older people, or those with physical limitations, who pay taxes and need their porches and sidewalks and driveways cleared but can't pay someone to do it.


I think it is a good solution, but, someone would lose profit, so it won't fly.

[MineralMan]

118. And some people just don't listen.

I get emails about snow plowing days. When I do, I check my street and contact people who have cars parked on the street. I tell them that they risk being towed and a high cost if they leave them there. In several cases, they've ignored me and their cars have been towed. Go figure.

On the other hand, I clear a couple of driveways for people who can't do it themselves. I have a snowblower, so it's not that big a deal for me to just do them.

[ckildegaard]

140. Alternate Proposal

If they absolutely insist on towing vehicles and impounding them, the fees should be more than $50 or $75, and payable over a period of months if necessary. The city might indeed lose money on that, but so goes the provision of certain government services. They are not in this to make money; they're in it to provide a public service (in this case, keeping the roads clear). That public service should not have the side-effect of robbing people of their means of transportation.

The other option is, if the city won't give up the car for that little, fine...but then they should pay for the person's costs of using public transit.

[JimDandy]

80. Minnesota has an Initiative and Referendum process.

It seems to me that regulating tow and storage charges would be a populist idea ideal for a people's bill.

[MineralMan]

116. Actually, it doesn't.

All such statewide measures must be put on the ballot by the legislature. Some cities do have such a process, though, but it's rarely, rarely used.

[JimDandy]

223. Thanks for the correction.

I used to be up on the Initiative/Referendum process requirements in the various states that had them. It's been awhile though, so my memory is off.

City by city is a viable alternative. I've been involved with various municipal citizens initiatives, most of which passed.

[me b zola]

6. K&R

[Brigid]

11. Remember those Direct TV commercials from a few years ago?

The ones where one thing led to another and to another, like dominoes falling? That's real life for all too many people.

[hunter]

14. Our automobile culture blows chunks. This is one more chunk.

When will we start restructuring our communities in such a way that automobiles are unnecessary?

That would be good for the environment, good for our health, and good for the human spirit.

For the working poor, unreliable automobiles and extortions like this are a great source of anxiety and stress.

As a temporary solution maybe we should make traffic and parking fines and impound fees proportional to a person's income.

Th ordinary working person driving a piece of shit car might pay ten dollars a day impound, the CEO driving a luxury car might pay ten thousand dollars a day. The ordinary person who's caught in a "rolling stop" at a stop sign might pay a fifty dollar fine, the CEO might pay a fifty thousand dollar fine.

It would be justice if the powerful people who make living in this society painful for so many of us were forced to suffer similar damages.

[Cleita]

22. Some communities are that way. There is adequate public transportation

for both poor and rich that many don't own cars even those who can afford one. Washington, DC is one such city. But they are too few.

[treestar]

248. This^^^^^

The car culture is out of control. Most people have to have one to get to work. And it's a drain on the finances of poorer people.

[marmar]

20. Because they're trapped. By design.

nt

[xchrom]

41. i wish more of us would see the 'planning' and 'design' in these policies. nt

[justabob]

124. +1 it's no accident nt

[TBF]

189. ^ that's the piece so many don't see -

there is no "American Dream". You're either born with money or you're not. We had something I will refer to as the "middle class experiment" from about 1950-80 in which our enemies were rebuilding from WWII and we were able to tax and redistribute w/some success but it was a very short-lived phenomena.

[ctsnowman]

250. Exactly!

[raouldukelives]

278. Yep. Some invest in the design. Strengthening it and sharing in the proceeds.

And some refuse to profit from the assured suffering of others. Without more of the latter we will never overcome the former.

[AwakeAtLast]

21. The city of Chicago crushed my sister's car

She got the notice that it needed to be moved AFTER it was already crushed. Would have cost her more than the value of the car in legal fees to recoup her loss. Luckily Chicago has decent public transportation, but still.

[RoccoR5955]

23. Too bad Public Transportation in the US

is so terrible in most places.
In other places, even in very rural areas, there is very good public transportation, and people can get around without the expense of a car.
Not in the US though, we have to spend all of our money to be the world's police force!

[aikoaiko]

25. Eventually thhe auto is declared abandoned, the lot owner gets the title, sells it, and profits

It's a business model of sorts.

[Prophet 451]

28. What I said when I posted this on my FB list

I am poor. I have always been poor. There have been times when Kat and I have literally had to sell possessions (mainly our dvd collection) to keep the heating turned on. Being disabled now, I'm reliant on benefits (welfare, for you on teh wrong side of the Atlantic). I have heard numerous diagnoses of what's wrong with poor people, a hundred ways to blame the poor for their own poverty. Booze, drugs, attitude, education, a hundred things the poor are supposed to do or not do, a hundred ways to blame the poor for their poverty because our culture still thinks in Dickensian terms, that the poor are poor through some failing of theirs. For the last few years, our Xmas presents have been financed by loans from a slightly dodgy company that charges exorbitant interest rates. Maybe it's not so wise to take those loans but damn it, we *deserve* one day off from being poor at least once a year. I *know*, because the press constantly tells me, exactly how much the public have been trained to despise those on benefits. There have been assaults and suicides because of that loathing and our government is just trying to exacerbate that to justify the sadism of their cuts to the welfare state. This government (both US and UK) seem to believe that if you just punish the poor in harsher ways, if you just whip them some more, they will all find those jobs which will magically appear and everything will be sunshine and unicorns.

Here's the real reason people are poor: The capitalist system requires winners and losers. The system requires a certain level of unemployment to keep wages down. Most of us cannot simply move to a completely new area to find work. We have family or kids or a support structure that we cannot leave. Our skills are outdated if we even have skills in the first place and Lord help you if you picked the wrong degree because you only get one shot at it (normally, I found a loophole which has since been closed) and you have to live with that choice forever.

So here's the real reason people are poor: They don't have enough money. Because our culture thinks that it is an acceptable way of doing business to fire half the staff and force those remaining to work twice as hard. Because it's not just teenagers on minimum wage anymore, it's everyone. Because government *should* redistribute wealth and the rich have gamed the system far too long. They own the government, they own the courts, they own the companies and they own the press. And maybe it's going to take guillotines before the bastards give the rest of the world a chance.

Thanks to a friend's incredible generosity (you know who you are and you are wonderful), our xmas is going to be great this year. We get a little time off from being poor. And I don't have the words to explain how wonderful that is.

[unrepentant progress]

32. "So here's the real reason people are poor: They don't have enough money."

Yep. Even Milton Friedman understood that. Of course, his views on everything else were odious and wrong.

[tenderfoot]

44. If you don't have a smartphone or internet how is it that your posting here now?

BTW, I don't believe anything you're spewing other than the Koch meme that the poor have pretty good in the USA.

[Adrahil]

51. Many public libraries offer computers with internet access. n/t

[tenderfoot]

54. And publicly funded helping libertarians relay how poor people should behave.

[dembotoz]

36. many years ago i read the classic book "the poor pay more'

maybe mid 70s
but the premise of the book was that poor folk pay higher rates for day to day living than wealthier people do.

car insurance is more -still in effect
groceries cost more-back then neighborhood grocers were the rip off artists of choice.
credit costs more
predatory lenders don't hand out in the burb's ya know

etc etc

find the book
read the book
it might open your eyes

[Prophet 451]

49. Don't need to, I've lived it

The hatred of the poor frequently makes me hate the genpop in return.

[hfojvt]

53. I read a similar book

called "The screwing of the average man" by a guy named Hapgood.

Cannot remember his first name now, but Vonnegut talks about Powers Hapgood in the book "Jailbird" and the "Hapgood brothers".

So naturally I had to read his book when I came across it (and being in the book business I came across many, many books).

[Johnny Rash]

40. When LIFE hands you a "Lemon", make "Lemonade"!

I can still hear my mom's voice saying, "When LIFE hands you a Lemon, make Lemonade"!

For years, I had problem understanding what she was saying to me. But I finally got it, when I least expected it.

As time went by, just like many others like me, I too had a car which took in half of my income to maintain year round.

So, when my car got impounded for a parking violation, I had to come up with some 2 hundred dollars to get it back.

On that day, however, I didn't have any money on me: Payday was still days in coming.

Suddenly, something made me remembered what my mom used to say to me when I was just a kid: "When LIFE hands you a Lemon, make Lemonade"!

Shortly, after that, I got me a "BIKE". I have never payed for "Parking", I have never payed for "Gas", and I always got to work on time.

The moral of this story is simple: Live life within your own means!

There you have it: Have some Lemonade!

[xchrom]

43. 'The moral of this story is simple: Live life within your own means! '

bullshit philosophy.

not all options are within the means of the poor.

[tenderfoot]

100. I love it when people find the need to tell poor people how they should behave

isn't it special?

[xchrom]

101. it's become a scourge. nt

[dembotoz]

102. very special

[Prophet 451]

47. Bullshit false optimism

It's easy to live within your means when you have enough coming in to pay the rent and the food. When you're poor, you don't have that luxury. You need to have the internet to look for work, you need to pay the rent so you're not living under a bridge and, oops, the money has run out.

[Johnny Rash]

72. I am not working anymore for "Big Oil", the "Big Three", and the "Big Banks"!

When I stop working for "Big Oil", the "Big Three" and the "Big Bank", I found myself richer and healthier!

The savings allowed me to buy my first computer ever. Then, I got myself on the Internet.

[Prophet 451]

103. And you just ignored what I said

[Johnny Rash]

113. I am not sure what U are saying exaltly!

But it seems to me, you are making a Big Mistake if you think "Money" solves everything!

Haven't you heard the old expression "Money can't buy you Love".

Just so that you know, Love came into my life when I was a homeless-18 years-old kid. I lost it, when I had a good paying job and a bank-account.

[Hissyspit]

202. But, but... Mom!

Ma knows best!

[tenderfoot]

57. I admire the lengths with which libertarians go to insure that poor people stay poor.

[Johnny Rash]

65. It's not because we are "poor" that we should behave like "poor".

We all have within ourselves the abilities to change and to improve the difficulties of things we face on daily basis.

[tenderfoot]

69. abilities like empathy?

good luck with that.

[Johnny Rash]

74. Empathy is what made me talk to you as a fellow "Human Being".

Over the years, I have been "up" and "down" the social ladder a good many times.



In fact, you could say that my life has been a "Hell of Roller-Coaster Ride".

When I was "down", Empathy from others facing a similar ordeal, is all I had to bring me back "up".

So, thanks for Empathy!

I think the whole world could use a little bit more Empathy.

[jeff47]

62. And you bought the bike with, what exactly?

And when you live in a place that has snow you did what, exactly?

And when the time between job 1 and job 2 was not enough time to bike between the two jobs, you did what, exactly?

And when your bike got stolen because no fucking way your boss will let you park it somewhere where customers might see it, you did what, exactly?

And when you shoved your head that far up your ass, how exactly did it feel?

[arcane1]

91. "Borrow 20,000 dollars from your parents if you have to"

See? There is always a solution!

[Johnny Rash]

106. Stange to you, maybe! But a Fellow Human Being gave it to me!

While riding it, I found out that it was getting me from "A" to "B" faster and cheaper.

Sometimes, the distance from "A" to "B" was farther apart than I really care for!

To this day, I have used my Bikes all year round: I could have worked for the post-office no problem.

Just so that you know, I had my share of Bikes stolen from me.

To solve this issue, I learn to repair Bikes!

But more importantly, I started to pick the ugliest looking Bikes I could find: The ones nobody wants - even a thief!



If what others think of your Bike bothers you so much, do what I did: Lock it half a block away from where you work!

[jeff47]

112. Excellent job missing the point, captain libertarian! (nt)

[Gormy Cuss]

70. First off, life needs to hand you lemons, a glass, some sugar, and water in order to make lemonade.

Second, if you had the money to buy a bike, life handed you the lemonade, not the lemons.

[Johnny Rash]

84. "Buying a bike" is the lemonade you get when life hands down you a lemon!

Living in poverty is the "Lemon" in this story.

What you do with it defines the kind of "Lemonade" you drink.

[Gormy Cuss]

87. The bike is lemonade. Buying it is having the tool (money) to make lemonade.

I'm a fan of the aphorism. I just don't agree to its application as a solution to poverty.

[Johnny Rash]

94. Maybe so! But it's better than being a hardcore Pessimist!

Maybe so! But it's better than being a Hardcore Pessimist who says to others, "Grey Sky ahead".

[Gormy Cuss]

146. If the sky ahead is gray, assuming there's rain in one's future isn't "hardcore pessimism" n/t

[Johnny Rash]

206. If the sky ahead is Grey, then find the Silver Lining!

A "Hardcore Pessimism" would be someone who cannot find the Silver Lining under a dark grey sky!

[Gormy Cuss]

214. Scratch. n/t

[handmade34]

150. there is often a fine line

between being pessimistic and pragmatic and realistic... you are attempting to apply a simple solution to an often complex problem entrenched in our society...

...your solution assumes that it is ok for our society to contain haves and have nots as a given...


"when life hands you lemons, make lemonade" is a very catchy cliché that is convenient for those of us that are fortunate and have had the family support, luck, education, place of birth, tools, etc... to get along ok... but it is a cliché that doesn't belong in a serious discussion about real poverty

[Johnny Rash]

182. Granted! It will never get me elected! But guess what? I am not running for office!

You seem to imply that I am living a middle-class existence a lot.

For example, when you said: "...your solution assumes that it is ok for our society to contain haves and have nots as a given... ".

While, what I am saying is: "When things go wrong, don't gave up"!

I have found that "Simple Kind Words" can go farther than "Empty Good Intentions"'.

Are you getting any of it, now?

Did it make you a richer man? Probably not!

Did it make you feel better, even for a brief moment, to hear somebody else say "When shit happens, don't go Ape, just make the best of it.".

Well, you tell me!

My intention here wasn't to solve Poverty. Nobody can solve Poverty: It is a given!

I only wanted to share what worked for me when dealing with Poverty.

[upaloopa]

83. I was homeless in San Diego until some friends

let me stay in a play house in their back yard.
I started getting unemployment. And got sober after years living the life of an alcoholic.
Eventually I got a job got married and after
30 years of ups and downs I am soon to retire with a pension and a new home.
I learned that life holds no guarantees except one. If you don't try to get out of your shit hole you never will.

[Johnny Rash]

89. You can't count on a Bank-Machine having Empathy toward you!

You can't count on a Bank-Machine having Empathy toward you!



But you can count on another fellow human being to feel something for you.

[upaloopa]

98. I remember when I was drinking that I would

Last edited Mon Dec 8, 2014, 04:44 PM - Edit history (1)

go to the ATM on Friday night to get some money for the weekend and find there was not even $20 to withdraw. I would go buy some beer and get drunk and blame everyone and everything but me for my predicament.

[arcane1]

88. That's about as removed from reality as it gets.

[Johnny Rash]

147. Perhaps if I had said "Keep Buying Lottery Tickets", it would have made more sense to you.

Personally I don't know anybody who won the Lottery.

I have stopped playing it years ago.

What I still do, though, is never give up: I keep making the best out of a bad situation.

After all, that's what my mom was trying to say to me, when she said "If Life gives you a Lemon, make Lemonade".

In other words, she was saying "Don't give up"!

I love my mom for that! She gave me strength when there was no "Hope" to be found.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

129. I think I'll just let Cave Johnson speak for me.

The moral of this story is simple: get your engineers to make a combustible lemon.

[hunter]

159. Exactly.

Lemons work pretty well as ammunition in spud guns too.

[bklyncowgirl]

187. That's fine if you have the great good fortune to live within cycling distance of your job.

Someone with a long commute and no public transportation will not have that option. Cheerful optimism is all well and good and true, some people like cats have an almost magical ability to land on their feet, maybe it's luck maybe it's hard work, most likely it's a combination of the two but to sneer at others because they lack this ability is frankly rather obnoxious.

[Johnny Rash]

216. Exaltely...!

There isn't a day that goes by, that I am not grateful for what I have - even if it ain't much!

Soon, I will be on Old Age Pension( if it's not postponed again). When that day comes, all that I own will fit in single suitcase.

You may not think much about Cheerful Optimism, but soon that's all I will have to give to others.

I am sorry I couldn't make you feel better.

[moriah]

196. Aren't you lucky not to live in rural Arkansas.

Bike 30 miles to the grocery store sometime.

[AngryOldDem]

255. And pull yourself up with your OWN friggin' bootstraps, too, huh?

Tirado WAS doing the best she could within her own means. But when shitstorms come, sometimes it gets very difficult.

Nice graphic, too.

[Johnny Rash]

279. We need to go back to the Basics as a Nation!

There is no magic cure for "Poverty" in the world!

All we can do, as a Nation, is eliminate some of the factors contributing to it.

To do that would mean we, as a Nation, have to make hard choices.

Keep only what you really need!

[AngryOldDem]

280. Keep what you need -- like a car to get to work?

Through no fault of her own, Torado didn't have that for awhile.

Read her book. She was by NO STRETCH living beyond her means.

[tenderfoot]

293. I wonder how long we'll have to suffer with that one?

So transparent...

[davidthegnome]

48. That's a good example.

Last year, towards the end of winter, the transmission in my car gave out. I had bought it the summer before, from a local dealership who assured me that it was in great shape...

I took it to a repair shop - and asked about the price of getting a new one. For a brand new transmission, labor, and so on - it would've been nearly three thousand dollars. I also didn't have that kind of money, also had no way of getting it quickly. They demanded the whole payment up front, before they went to work. Fortunately my Father is somewhat richer than I am, and managed to convince the business owner to settle for 700 up front, and the rest over the next two months.

It was still pretty tough for me to pay for it. I made 250 a week or so after taxes, had savings that were pretty much nonexistent - and still had to make car payments and student loan payments. If not for my family letting me stay with them well into adulthood, I'd have been SOL so many times...

It's kind of strange for me. I'm poor, but my parents are working middle class, and other family members (two in particular) are just short of being very upper class. I actually make less money now than I did then, moved on to a job I didn't hate as much, that wasn't as far from home - and took a cut of about forty bucks a week.

There is, for me, an issue with feelings of shame, as if I am not worth as much as they are. I don't have the same education, the same resources or training. Even a sister of mine who earns 45 grand a year or so is earning nearly five times what I do - and that's considered to be basically a working class income, I think. Every time I even think about asking for help with something, it's like a little bit of pride just falls out and dies.

My employers aren't much richer than I am, they have a business that on most months barely breaks even. It's a damned rough economy in Northern Maine - and our current government makes it a hell of a lot harder.

Why do we really stay poor? I think that, in large part, it's because the wealthy and ultra wealthy intend to remain so, because our government is currently engaging in austerity measures and budget cuts. I think it has a lot to do with us giving tax cuts to the ultra wealthy and eliminating basically good ideas - like the earned income tax credit. It doesn't help that we have a predatory federal government earning billions and billions of dollars from nearly every student who has aspirations of one day graduating and embarking upon a professional career.

Everything has become too expensive - and compensation, wages, our safety net, our educational system... none of these are up to the challenge - because we keep electing assholes intent on destroying them and further enriching themselves, their little experiment in capitalism gone wild.

If every one of us just remembered some of the very basic life lessons we learned in our first year of elementary school... I think we would have a much happier, much healthier, much wealthier Nation. The simplest lesson of all, really, is to share.

[Prophet 451]

52. No-one wants to admit...

...that government should redistribute wealth. But good luck getting that through to a genpop brainwashed to despise the poor.

[Tsiyu]

210. It feels terrible to ask for help

Some in my family will make you pay emotionally if they help you.

One family member in particular will respond to every religious Tom, Dick and backwoods preacher who asks for money. He donated a ton to Ronald Reagan's presidential campaign, for example.

In other words, when Ronald Reagan called and sent manipulative, plaintive letters begging for money, the dolt was happy to write checks. Didn't have a problem with the begging.

If any family member needs help from him? Heaven forbid. They are scum of the earth for "begging."

If I were in hell, I wouldn't ask him for a sip of water.

A lot of my family are insufferable snobs. They give to charity and brag about it, but a family member in need is only pure embarrassment and shame.

How dare that family member be poor! No one in "their" family should be poor, but they will be sure to shame them, ignore them and do their part to ensure they remain poor.

[MADem]

243. Northern Maine is a tough economy.

Good people up there though. And the scenery is beautiful. Peaceful, quiet, and you can get a breath of fresh air. A few light industries up there, though, could really make the difference in peoples' lives. I think a lot of businesses are put off by the snow, but there's a very willing work force in northern ME.

Whatever you're doing for work, it doesn't sound like you want to do that forever. It's not easy to break away from a cycle of just getting by, but you've plainly got the smarts. You are paying student loans back? What was your major and are you able to find work in it, or are you just taking a job that is "available?"

I hope you find something that suits your talents.

[Kelselsius]

50. There is another reason rich people don't have to worry about losing their cars

Many executives drive a "Company Car". Often an expensive snob appeal car like a BMW or Mercedes Benz.
They don't have to worry about having their car impounded because their company makes all of the payments. Even insurance, maintenance and fuel. They even have lower level employees take the car into the shop for them.

[99Forever]

55. The current so called "recovery"...

... offers almost NO opportunity for the working class their improve their financial status. The parasite rich have gotten far richer and those of us that do the actual production in this nation struggle harder and harder all the time, just to have the basic needs of survival.

This cannot and will not continue forever. There is a giant shitstorm on the horizon, those that willfully ignore it do so at their own peril.

[JDPriestly]

56. That's how it works. You have to have money to make money.

[ileus]

68. A friend of mine lost his Dually dodge diesel that way.

It bit the dust (transmission) while he was 500 miles away from home. He made his way home, and it was towed, by the time he found out where it was they already wanted like 400 bucks. He was broke as could be (still is...some do it to themselves) so he let it sit. Six months turned into a year and then it was gone.

This was like the Mid 90's and it was a 88 or so diesel.

[99Forever]

81. The poor are kept poor intentionally by design.

Anyone that doesn't get that is fooling themselves.

[Johnny Rash]

284. Poverty is a By-Product created by a Social Structure that we happily called "Humanity".

Wealthy people would say "Humanity is Goooood"!

Poor folks would say "Humanity sucks big time"!

So, what's the "Big Deal", here?

The "Big Deal" is we often forget that "One" cannot exist without the "Other".

[99Forever]

285. Really?

Can you PROVE that stinking fresh steaming pile?

Impress me.

[99Forever]

291. Well..

... you proved you can obfuscate.

Predictably.

[Beringia]

294. Jury results

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Dec 10, 2014, 04:24 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Can you point to the place on the doll where the Internet hurt you?
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The entire thread got out of hand. I started from top and read to the bottom....wow! Both sides out of control. I won't hide in this case because numerous posts have been nasty.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Appeared to me to be an attack on the post, not the poster. Voting to leave.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Wow.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Could use more civil words. Over the top response.

[One_Life_To_Give]

97. Preyed upon

There is a whole group of services and providers who just prey upon the poor. Maybe the poor could do better for themselves but these type of people make it that much more difficult for anyone to work their way out.

Since when should 100ft^2 outside storage cost more than a 300+ft^2 hotel room with hot/cold running water, Heat/AC ?

[Warpy]

104. Towing companies have run a racket for decades

I almost lost my car when I first lived in Boston because it had been towed. The parking spot was legal. They were just towing cars all over the area during a demonstration. It cost me nearly all my reserve cash to get it back.

Bastards.

[Johonny]

138. I know

They towed my GF car once even though she was parked in the lot she paid for. They claimed they couldn't see the marking to say the car was legit. When I complained to the apartment management they said there was nothing they could do. It was their fucking parking lot and their fucking tow company they hired to steal their residence cars, but there was nothing they could do. They charged 150 towing and 200 for one day storing the car. We moved out. The complex mostly houses new immigrants and, yes, was totally and completely taking advantage of the residence that barely spoke English let alone understood that this was not normal for apartment complexes to do to their residents. That's Orange county Republican heaven for you.

[Marr]

109. Yep-- this is a seriously bullshit practice. Seen it myself.

And you can end up losing your car for no wrongdoing of your own, btw. It isn't hard to get towed.

When I got towed, my car was parked right in front of my house. Some neighbor apparently reported my car as being 'abandoned', and they tow service was only too happy to come down and snatch it up. A legally parked car, right in front of my own house, just gone-- and they lot told me it'd be $200 to get it out that day. $300 if I waited a day, and so on.

Thankfully I had the cash to get my car out of the impound lot-- but really, where do you even go from there? I'm not a lawyer, and I have to work. I can't spend weeks fighting a $200 charge, which I'm sure they well know.

[bravenak]

111. This is how the system is set up.

I consider it modern feudalism.

[AtomicKitten]

131. The system is rigged, the choices impossible.

Succumbing to the downward spiral is baked into the process. Without something changing the paradigm, keeping one's head above water is as good as it gets.

[Tatiana]

156. I'm disgusted by the heartless comments on here.

First of all, many people call towing companies to tow vehicles that are LEGITIMATELY PARKED.

This happened to me one time and I was parked in front of my own apartment. Thankfully, I had the means to pay the $150 fee and the attorney to sue the towing company for not verifying with the apartment complex that my vehicle was indeed illegally parked.

I can't imagine what would happen to someone, say a single parent (which I have been), working several jobs to make ends meet.

But let's take this case, where the person says it was their own fault that they got towed. I honestly feel like this is an enterprise for towing companies to gain vehicles to profit from via auction or other resale means. Very rarely have I seen a luxury vehicle towed. Ticketed? Yes. But rarely towed. Those who have financial means have the lawyers and logistical support to get out of paying those same fees that regular folks like you and I get stuck paying.

I once fought (and won) a speeding ticket written by a cop who said I was going 85 miles on the highway. I was able to prove that my cruise control was on 72 mph and the ticket was dismissed. But I lost a whole day of work, not to mention the time and money spent gaining the information to prove my case from the car manufacturer. Most poor people don't have the option of fighting those tickets. They don't have the luxury of missing work. So they pay the unjust fine in order to continue moving on with minimum disruption.

It's not fun at all being poor. I wish there was a lot more compassion for poor people. I guess we have been too spoiled in this country. Maybe it will take us all losing 401Ks, retirements, savings, and regular employment in order to understand just how difficult things are for the working poor.

[dilby]

170. This is one thing AZ has right.

In AZ it's illegal for a tow company to hold a car till they get paid. When a person shows up to the tow lot they have to release the vehicle and they can send a bill to the person but they can't say you need to pay me XYZ. Because of this a lot of tow companies actually have way lower rates in AZ compared to other states, they figure it's better to get some money than no money at all.

[moonbeam23]

179. In response to the guy who bought a bike and "made lemonade"

Works for you maybe...yay...What about people who have kids to shuttle around? Going to strap them to the bike lol?

[tenderfoot]

191. I like how the subject of the poor brings out every Libertarian troll on the site.

Like flies to shit without fail.

[TheKentuckian]

262. The fruit of embracing "socially liberal (or moderate) but fiscally conservative" aka Libertarians

Ironically, these tend to be the same folks most likely to be howling "LIBERTARIAN PAULBOT" at anyone who values the Bill of Rights or isn't interest in shiny new (or rebooted) wars, I guess it is some kind of reflexive projection defense mechanism hoping few figure out they are actual Libertarians (and I use the big "L" intentionally).

[AngryOldDem]

256. The essay needs to be read within the context of the rest of Tirado's life.

She was doing everything she could within her means to make it. But when the truck gets impounded, and you have no way to get to work, and you get sick, and you need child care for the kids, and you need a place to live because your landlord won't fix your place, and the money that you are entitled to from the government doesn't come...

Well, yeah. A nice, tall, ice-cold glass of Country Time will do the trick. Absolutely.

[humbled_opinion]

203. Similar situation happened to me

I took out a payday loan to get my vehicle back granted mine was only a $50.00 per day storage charge in Philly but 2 days in the lot and I had no money, I knew that waiting wasn't an option so I took my paystub down to Advance America and bingo I got $200 payday loan which they snapped right up on my next pay day. It really does seem like the deck is stacked against us.

[humbled_opinion]

213. and Poor People do have Poor ways

what it means is that when you are poor, you will wind up paying the most, or doing without. It is not the poor persons fault it is the predatory practices that those with means use to take advantage of the poorest people. Did you ever Rent to Own from Rent-A-Center? Do you really understand the interest rate? Did you ever have to take a payday loan at more than 70 percent interest rate? Did you ever actually borrow money from a loan shark because you got so far behind on the light bill that they were going to cut your apartment off in mid winter leaving you and your kids freezing to death with the only other alternative dragging everyone down to public shelter at the EFSP which would mean you missing work, kids missing school and other traumatic events, so your poor and you have poor ways, but you get by and you struggle and in the end you pray it is all worth it.

[inanna]

209. I'm pretty darn poor myself.

I've been off sick for a long time. About a week ago, my old boss called me up (out of the blue) and said he could really use me right now. So I sent him my resume, references, etc. Then went in to talk to him and found out I'd need a police check which costs $45.00! This wasn't a requirement the first time I worked there. I'm lucky (I guess) as I was able to borrow the money to get it done and will more than likely be getting hired back on again.

But towing and impound fees like you described would easily be the end of me....

[Mosby]

220. I had something similar happen to me

Luckily I knew that a "mechanics lien" did not apply to tow truck companies so when they refused to release my vehicle to me I called the cops and forced them to release the vehicle. They then sued me in small claims court and lost because I proved using photos that the parking space was not properly marked. They were pissed and I loved every minute of it.

[tavernier]

221. It won't help in this situation

but an education is the key. I've been poor, but being lucky enough to get a degree in nursing many years ago guaranteed me a job and some money when I needed it. Make your kids get some type of an education, at all costs. It's the difference between starving and having a blanket, a roof and a hot meal that you can claim as your own.

I've never been rich, but I've always been able to take care of myself.

[INdemo]

227. why didnt you get an attorney...

[OnionPatch]

230. This kind of thing happens more than people realize

My mom, who lived in poverty for a while, explained to me that poor people end up paying more for everything because of things like this. You can't pay your bills on time so you have chronic late fees, you can't afford maintenance on your car so you end up having major problems that could have been avoided. You can't afford to buy things in bulk so you lose out on that savings. You can't afford insurance so have to pay out of pocket. You can only afford to rent so you never have a chance to buy a home and accumulate equity. There's nothing left on pay day to make any kind of financial investment. I could go on but you get the idea.

[Gormy Cuss]

232. It's a vicious circle.

You can't afford the better deal, so you pay for what you can afford, and that means you don't have the money to save for the better deal... rinse, lather, repeat.

It's effing HARD to break the cycle of poverty. I know, I did it--- with the help of an enormous social safety net. I didn't bootstrap my way out of it. I took the hand outs and hands up offered.

[Recursion]

231. I lost a car that way. My birth certificate and passport were in it.

I had just started a new job, like literally that day, and I was supposed to bring in my proof of citizenship documents. But, they were in the car. No, the lot owner wouldn't let me in to get my passport or birth certificate. I couldn't touch anything until I got the money to him.

So, I lost the job (three separate cops I talked to went with me to try to get him to let me in, called him the world's biggest piece of shit to his face, and then couldn't actually legally do anything), then shortly after lost my bank account, and so began the 2-year off-the-economic-grid odyssey I only barely got pulled out of with a lot of luck and help from others.

[Psephos]

239. wow, that is simply brutal

glad it's going somewhat better for you these days

[jtuck004]

235. 85 Richest People in the world take in about $500,000 a minute. They buy the

politicians that keep people in poverty, like the over 10 million (including children) that dropped from better-off into poverty during this administration. Most of them will be there, especially their kids, long after it is over.

It is their choices that matter far more than the choice of someone who can barely afford to get their car out of a tow yard.

Otoh, I can see the attraction in trying to lay the blame on those with no assets and no power, for some. Like gun carriers, it helps the self-righteous forget their own deficiencies and errors.

[adirondacker]

283. Excellent points.

Thanks for the link to the OXFAM article, it's a great reference and read.

[AngryOldDem]

253. Tirado's book, "Hand to Mouth," is GREAT.

Should be required reading for everyone.

She also talks about what it's like to get health care when you're poor, and how one thing that would be a minor inconvenience to the rest of us can send a poor person right into crisis. Among other things.

This is one of the best books I have read all year. She doesn't sugar-coat a damned thing, nor should she. Better, IMO, than "Nickel And Dimed."

[Vattel]

254. My car was towed and damaged. It was obvious that they ran it into the car beside it in their lot,

and so they couldn't deny that they did the damage. But then they wanted to do the body work themselves. There was no way I was going to agree to that, and I finally agreed to not making them pay to fix it in exchange for getting my car back for free. I wish I had held them accountable, but sometimes fighting over something like that can wear you out.

[War Horse]

259. I like the phrase "being poor can be really expensive"

Sometimes people have no choice but to go for more expensive options. I you can't afford a freezer, you might end up using more money on food than if you had one and could bargain shop more and plan ahead more.

A bad credit rating can cripple you in a lot of ways. If you can't get a phone subscription, you might end up with a more expensive pre-pay/cash card deal. You might end up paying higher rent if you have bad credit, which can lead to fewer options on the market. Or you can lose your car if you can't pay the fees, as described here. A million things, really.

The snowball effect applies regardless. If you're in trouble, it tends to just build up and get worse. The worse the situation you're in is, the worse it usually is to reverse and (start to) get out of.

[The Green Manalishi]

282. K&R'd

There is a lot to the subject; your excellent post is a great example. I might humbly try to add a little bit of my observation:

Two brothers who have always been poor are a good example of some of the other structural issues. They have absolutely no idea how to budget, save or spend money. None.

For a long time I just assumed that anyone poor probably knew how to stretch their money much better than I (born middle class, still middle class, enough assets and savings that I'll probably die middle class)... but I realized that is ass backwards. The discipline to save, the knowledge of the power of compound interest - it's either going to work for or against you- all the stuff regarding money that our parents taught my wife and myself, they never learned; and IMHO they can no more be blamed for that than someone who never had a car in the family can be blamed for not knowing how to drive. And when they briefly had more money than bare survival required they blew it on (in my opinion) stupid shit- but while *I* might think a poor person buying a big screen TV is not the best use of funds that could be invested in an emergency fund I started to realize that it's damn near impossible for someone to live 50 years in a consumer society with everyone else having neat toys and then deny yourself something enjoyable the only time in your life you have a chance to experience it.

Here in Sonoma County there is much ado about people without licenses having their cars impounded at DUI checkpoints, even though they weren't drunk- with the same results- no car, no job, no place to live, all visited on someone just trying to play the game by the rules.

Thanks for posting.

[gerogie2]

287. This did not happen becuase they were poor..

It happens because our politicians have set up the system so that if a poor person makes a mistake they are destroyed. It happens in criminal and civil law.

[daredtowork]

292. The New "Capitalist" System is Similar to the Old Soviet System

In that most will be mired in an absurd social services system where they do reams of paperwork at deadlines that only suit the bureaucracy, have to go through the hassle of appealing half the time because of that bureaucracy's overload errors. and get screwed in the end anyway...and the other half of society gets employment processing the paperwork and/or monitoring, psychologically "behaviorially modifying", or "fraud investigating" the first half!!!

This is the tragedy of a rapidly technologizing society. Wealth is supposed to be redistributed through employment. But when people are rendered useless by technology, they don't get the utopia of leisure and spiritual development with technology doing all the work and providing for their needs. Instead, all the wealth accumulates with the 1%, and there is no mechanism for redistribution because people aren't really "needed". Work is only provided at the discretion of people with wealth and power. It is a gift from above that can be taken away if people even give their new masters a sour look.

So when people lose their jobs, and lose their place in society, they don't rebel - they submit to the system of bogus paper chases and endless employment workshops and struggle to avoid homelessness while they are monitored and investigated by the part of society that is still permitted to have a livelihood, full health benefits, and to put something toward a pension/retirement fund. As long as the people caught "in the system" don't rebel, there is always hope they will be permitted to join the "paper processing, monitoring, and investigating" classes.

[Jamaal510]

295. K&R