"Thug" has become the accepted way of calling someone the N-word...

[Playinghardball]

[Prophet 451]

1. Yep

The latest code word in the ever expanding lexicon of oppression. I shall steadfastly refuse to call black men by that word, even if they deserve it. I shall use a synonym like "yob" instead.

[leftymon]

3. Yob?

"Quit looting my business, yob" may work more to confuse the issue than clarify. Proceed carefully.

[Prophet 451]

6. Britishism

Coined by Disraeli.

[leftymon]

26. OH...I thought it meant "young oppressed black"

[VScott]

5. You know, "yob" is boy spelled backwards.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/yob

[Prophet 451]

7. Yes, that was Disraeli's point

On reflection though, the use of "boy" to refer to African-American men has a bad history too.

[VScott]

8. That was my point

[The Great Escape]

15. Interesting...

I thought it was Youth Of Britain. I guess I read that somewhere without context. Thanks for posting.

[heaven05]

22. The term is/was used

to describe certain type of soccer fan in Britain, so you are correct. But here in this country it has been turned into the racist dog whistle racist use to not have to say the nword out loud and risk outing themselves to mixed company. In private I'm sure it's not used.

[cwydro]

67. My dad grew up in the slums of London.

Until the day he died, he used "yobbos" to describe ANY group of young men up to no good.

It was used in his day to describe HIM and his friends. All white.

So don't let anyone tell you it is a racial slur. It is not.

Class slur. Perhaps.

What we miss in all these discussions on DU is how much class plays into police action.

The poor are targeted. The rich are not.

[etherealtruth]

2. I agree that it has

it certainly is currently used to vilify black men .... I just want to point out that for many older folk it was not used as a racist term but was heard (and /or used) to demean unions .... as in Union Thug.

My point in this is NOT that it is OK for older folk to use this term (since it has definitely been co-opted by racists) ... but some older folk may use it and need to be educated that it is NOW (most assuredly) a racist term.

* Note: I am not saying that all older folk are "unaware" .... just pointing out that it is a possible explanation.

[bemildred]

4. Twenty or thirty years now, that one's been a go to for shy racists and other axe-grinders.

Whenever I see it, I know the writer is not trying to keep me informed.

[xchrom]

14. +1

[MrScorpio]

9. The imperative to denigrate black people is quite telling.

And it's always been part of the fabric of America.

[BillZBubb]

11. True that!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

21. well said.

The same imperative operates with regard to women.

I want us to work together, I dream of that.....we could all benefit from unity.

[exboyfil]

10. I find it interesting that the term thug

is not applied to NASCAR racers for fights after races, but if you fight after a football game---

[Bluenorthwest]

12. Someone needs to inform John Kerry and others who use the word to describe people such as Assad.

Because if the meaning is going to be taken in that way, our Sec of State and other officials need to apologize for using it then cease using it at once.

[heaven05]

18. not relevant to point

of OP

[JI7]

78. it's more about Context, similar to referring to an adult black male as a Boy

doesn't mean boy is offensive in itself or in all cases.

kind of like a male boss referring to female employees as girls, gals, etc may not be acceptable but a group of women referring to themselves as having a "girls night out" would be ok.

[ancianita]

13. It's been white code for years.

[Nye Bevan]

32. Is "brush country thug posse" an acceptable use of the word?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4812759

[ancianita]

42. I hear ya. That strictly white context called for it being used against those guys. My claim here is

that the word should not be twisted by whites such that they can use it as code. That's what they do. In my experience with whites who are avowed racists, I've heard both that word and "urban" used to describe white people, besides the historical pejoratives.

Thanks for the challenge.

[Judi Lynn]

61. It's a perfect application. Glad you decided to share it. I missed it the first time. Thanks. n/t

[BlancheSplanchnik]

16. absolutely right.

yep.

[heaven05]

17. true

Last edited Sat Dec 6, 2014, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

even saw it used here a 'few' times(being nice ) since the murder of Trayvon Martin.

[JCMach1]

19. No, history of the word is entirely different...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

The word is popular in former British colonies like Kenya to refer to any type of criminal...

The 'N' word has a much more poisonous history...

[heaven05]

37. well in this country, at this time in history

the word means n...r. Period.

[derby378]

39. Blah, blah, blah

Here in Texas, we use the word "thug" to describe any guy regardless of skin color who bullies or attacks the weak or innocent. Period.

[heaven05]

41. "blah", "blah", "blah"

is appropriate for my answer to your post. I think I'll use it. Thank you......... saved me some trouble. on edit: In Texas I'm sure thug is used to describe people of color....sure...

[gollygee]

43. Blah blah blah?

What is that like when you put your hands over your ears and say "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!"

There has been a nationwide (including Texas) generational shift for this word. I am in my mid-40s, and that is how the word was used before I was about 30 to 35, so fairly recently. But now this word has serious racist undertones. And yes, nationwide, because it's the nationwide media that has made this change. You might occasionally hear the word applied to a white person, but not often, and especially not often in the media.

[derby378]

48. While I appreciate your more even-handed approach to discussing the word...

...you and I both know that today's American media is a pile of horseshit for the most part. I did a quick Google search for recent crime reports in which the word "thug" was used and came up with these:

Thug tries to rape 81-year-old woman in Tribeca stairwell: cops
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/thug-rape-woman-81-tribeca-stairwell-cops-article-1.2034547

Rising young actor committed suicide after thug who tortured him for 14 hours leaves jail
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/rising-young-actor-committed-suicide-4751191

CCTV captures thug smashing glass into expectant dad's face in unprovoked attack
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/cctv-captures-thug-smashing-glass-4751037

Jail for Leeds thug who threw can of alcohol over Muslim woman
http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/jail-for-leeds-thug-who-threw-can-of-alcohol-over-muslim-woman-1-6990672

British thug who punched girl, 4, so hard he ripped holes in her intestine gets 13 year sentence
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/thug-punched-holes-girl-intestine-13-years-article-1.2028781

[gollygee]

53. I said nationwide and you've found mainly British links

It is occasionally used for white people, fairly often used for Latinos, but mainly used for African Americans, and is used with the racial message in the OP.

I can't see the person in the top one well enough to tell what race he is, and the others are from British sources, who do use the word differently.

[7962]

71. Actually, it IS used in sports media. Here its used to describe 50 white guys:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/897210-nhl-video-50-biggest-thugs-in-hockey-history
"thug" has been used in hockey in recent years for some of the "dirty" players. A dirty player in pretty much any sport would qualify. I've heard Richie Incognito, formerly of the Miami Dolphins, called a thug. He fit the description and he's white.
Thanks to Comrade Grumpy for pointing this out in a later post.

And as I also said downthread, I've used it to describe bad cops for some time. Because thats what they are, thugs.

I dont think someone should just be able to say "oh this word is racist now' just because they dont like it. Dont do shit that makes people think of that word to describe you.

[gollygee]

73. It is used in a non-racist way in hockey

I'm a Red Wings fan, and I know "thug" is used as a synonym for "goon" in hockey. But I wonder if the heavy Candian influence is part of how it's remained more neutral. If you look at US news media reports, the word "thug" is used overwhelmingly for men of color, particularly African American, but also sometimes Latino. If it's used for a white man, it seems like it's frequently used to compare him to an African American man, like it's linked to a comparison with his pants sagging or something.

No one is saying that every time someone uses the word, they're being racist, or that if you've said it you were using it to replace n****. We're just recognizing how frequently the word is used in the way the OP says, and also I think the change of how this word is being used from how it's been used previously.

[helpmetohelpyou]

62. same here

[JCMach1]

79. Ummmm 2PAC

self-describing the inner-city gangster experience as 'thug life'...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thug_Life:_Volume_1

That's very different from the 'N' word...

[heaven05]

84. Yes, but it is

the racists 'intent' behind the usage of 'thug' in describing a race of people, not a sub-culture in a race of people, that is of import here. Hell I don't like the word as meant by the white racist intent on using it to describe a whole race of people.

[JCMach1]

94. Can racists appropriate a word? of course they can... the difference is

because there is not that long poisonous history, I feel perfectly okay in using it to refer to a criminal, or criminality...

Institutional racism appropriates all sorts of language to describe race, still we use those terms to mean non-racist things...

[heaven05]

96. your point is well understood

words like thug, urban are not inherently racist like n....r is, neither are jigaboo, coon and like words to describe a complete race of people and individuals of that denigrated race. Any person with a modicum of intelligence knows that thug has been used historically, as is now, as a description covering many types of individuals and situations mentioned in a lot of these threads as being appropriate as a descriptive word.

The point of OP is however, how the words thug, like coon, jigaboo, urban people, have been expropriated by the white racist to mean something other than it's intended usage. There are many non racist words used in describing a whole race of denigrated people in a racially disparaging manner that have been expropriated by the racist to cover them from, they think, sounding like the ignorant, hateful and despicable clowns that they are. What don't you understand about "dog whistle" racism, I ask. There are many non racist words in the English language describing things non racial. Only the white amerikkkan racist has taken some of those those words and used them in a racist context that supposedly is not understood by "those people" and only understood by the ones in their group as to it's true meaning.

Black people and others really are capable of critical thinking and deductive analysis, whether you believe it or not.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

87. I'm not sure much response beyond "you're wrong" is possible. N.T.

[heaven05]

88. fine

you're entitled to your no response. I know that I'm correct. Period.

[Atman]

20. Sad but true.

[christx30]

23. I use thug

to describe jackbooted asshole cops. Is that still wrong?

[heaven05]

38. nope

they are thugs, but not what is meant in calling the brown american person a thug.

[arikara]

44. That's what I use it for too

I don't use it as a racial slur because I don't do that, never have never will. And I'm not giving it up for the pigs because its a good word for them.

[Burf-_-]

24. It's about context by which you use a word

...not the word itself, therefore i can't completely accept Sherman's opinion on the use of the word being used to soley equate to a racist slur like the word "nigger" which is specifically a racist slur. It is different by definition and the context in which it is used; "Thug" can be used to describe, police, rioters, black people, white people, or anyone who acts with criminal intent.


Carlin from beyond the grave again:

[gollygee]

45. It could be

but it is almost exclusively used for people of color, particularly African American men and boys, particularly in the media. The fact that it could theoretically be used differently, or even that it occasionally is, doesn't change the accuracy of the OP. This is the context in which this word is almost always used.

[pinboy3niner]

25. Bernie Kerik referred to Ferguson protesters as savages, animals and goblins

But I'm sure he didn't mean anything by it.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fmr-nypd-commish-cant-let-people-act-like-savages-and-animals/

[Igel]

31. He did.

But that doesn't entail that every use of the words automatically is racist and can only apply to blacks.

Idees fixes can gobble up everything around them if we're not careful.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

70. I've seen goblin used in our own gungeon. Yeah, I know, surprise.

[7962]

75. Well, it must be ok, cause he DIDN'T say "thug".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. Yes

[JoePhilly]

28. Yep.

[7962]

29. Oh, horseshit. I've been calling bad cops "thugs" for years.

Basically, anyone who is violent to others qualifies to me. I dont care what you look like. But I've mostly used it to describe bad cops because the shoe fits.

[Comrade Grumpy]

34. And don't forget those NHL goons.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/897210-nhl-video-50-biggest-thugs-in-hockey-history

"NHL Video: 50 Biggest Thugs in Hockey History"

I don't think any of them is black.

[7962]

68. Wow, you're right! I completely forgot about hockey!! nt

[sadoldgirl]

30. This may cause a problem for some on DU.

How often have I read here something about republican thugs, I
don't know. Will that have to be changed now?

[Nye Bevan]

33. Can we still call Putin a thug?

If you do a DU search for Putin thug there are many results. Perhaps the word is OK to use as long as it is not applied to black people?

[7962]

74. I'll use it if it fits. Here's the definition of word:

"a violent person, especially a criminal.
synonyms: ruffian, hooligan, vandal, hoodlum, gangster, villain, criminal"

I dont see a race mentioned. But some will see it everywhere they look. I've quit worrying about it.

[Comrade Grumpy]

35. The word CAN be used that way. It's not the only way it's used.

[heaven05]

50. By RW american racists

it IS used that way. Yes, any person can be described as a thug with no racist overtones. White racist who use it, usually RW but not always, cannot be trusted to have 'good' intentions when referring to black americans as thugs. Period. The history and usage of RW racist dog whistle language IS understood for what it means TODAY.....

[loyalsister]

85. That's why it's described as code

"Urban youth" is another one. Urban and youth both have different uses, and they could describe youth of any ethnicity. However, it is usually paired with stereotypes.

[Hoyt]

36. Exactly true when used by right wingers to refer to Blacks. Might be something different when

referring to "whites" as noted by other posters. But when some hate filled right wing yahoo uses "thug" to refer to Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Ferguson protestors, what makes yahoos run out and buy guns, etc., Sherman is 100% correct.

[derby378]

40. Sounds like a case of offensensitivity

Anyone acts like a thug, they get called a thug, regardless of skin color. We have enough shit to deal with already.

[bemildred]

47. So if someone says it, it must be so?

That seems awfully naive.

[derby378]

51. That reaches me as the gist of the OP

If Richard Sherman says it, then it must be true. You can see the parallel.

[bemildred]

55. So you are both full of it then?

Or is only you that gets to decide how the word is used?

The OP suggests that it IS used as a substitute for the "N" word, and I have seen that many times, so as far as I'm concerned, observation confirms what he says in the OP.

The fact that other people, such as yourself, also use it in other ways doesn't really address his point, and it makes you look stupid to say it does, too.

[Bonx]

52. And ironically, that's what the thread is based on

[bemildred]

58. Please see post #55, it applies to you too. nt

[helpmetohelpyou]

46. I never thought about that really

I use to describe Blacks , Whites , Asians , Latinos

Pretty much anyone that acts like a thug

[bemildred]

57. Please post #55.

It applies to you too.

[helpmetohelpyou]

65. My posts apply to you

[bemildred]

66. No they don't, I don't use the word "thug" all the time.

In fact I never use it at all, except in threads like this one.

[rock]

49. Suppose I want to call

a cop a "thug", and I don't know his race. Is that OK usage? What if I know his race, is that OK (I'm an equal opportunity caller)?

[helpmetohelpyou]

60. I use the word thug all the time

I use it to describe cops , Black gangbangers , White gang bangers , Asians ones
Some outlaw motorcycle gangs . I could make a list..
Oh and I forgot ,we also call Guidos thugs up here for the most part.

I see them all
I don't see the word as racist

[rock]

63. I thought I had led a sheltered life

As I have never heard it used with the discussed connotation. But I guess I can retire "thug" and just call the cops "assholes". That nails it too.

[helpmetohelpyou]

64. Me either

Just because a few racists decide they want to use it as code now for the n word
We are all suppose to stop using it.

Like I said I have never seen anyone here use it to cover up using the n word

I'll still use the word thug where ever it applies

[JTFrog]

86. You use the term "Guidos"

while trying to convince folks you don't "see" words as racist? Let's be clear here. It doesn't matter if you "see" it or not. I wish that I was surprised that a jury failed to hide your post by one vote. But rest assured, the rest of us "see" exactly what you did there.

"Oh and I forgot ,we also call Guidos thugs up here for the most part."

Unfuckingbelievable.

[helpmetohelpyou]

93. Yup , the jersey shore type thugs

Rude , will cut lines , loud , start fights

[JTFrog]

95. You are defending using insensitive and bigoted statements

and thereby removing any doubt anyone may have had about your posts.

Well done.

[mythology]

56. I don't take cues from Richard Sherman

He's a loud mouthed narcissistic egotistical pain in the ass who failed a drug test. He said that in effort to defend his obnoxious rant after a playoff game last year.

[Dirty Socialist]

59. That's why I call them ReTHUGlicans

[Turbineguy]

69. Yes, "Those People" was getting

a bit long in the tooth.

[ChazII]

72. Are whites

the only group that speak in code?

I know that pig might be code for police officer. Or would that be a nick name? However pig used to describe cop has been used for decades and by all groups.

Another example hog/motorcycle Please point me to a link that would explain. I apologize in advance for my confusion.

[gollygee]

76. This kind of code language is called using "dog whistles"

as in you can claim you're talking about X, but your intended audience knows you mean Y. The dog whistles have been used to support white supremacy, so they are generally used by white racist people to speak in code to other white racist people. I suppose other dog whistle language could be used, but I'm not personally aware of it. Maybe a way of saying "we should go to war" without saying "war" or a way of talking about the 1% without saying "the 1%" or "rich people" or whatever. It could happen and I wouldn't be surprised to hear it does.

Here's an explanation from wikipedia about how it works: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics

[ChazII]

77. Thank you, gollygee

I am going to bookmark your link for future reference.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

91. Except that "thug" isn't a code word, it's an openly derogatory word.

When Paul... I want to say Krugman, but not him, the senior Republican Congressman, anyhow... attacked "America's urban population", that was an example of a code word: he was saying "urban" but everyone knew he meant "black".

But when commentators call young black men "thugs", they mean "thugs"; if it's racist then the racism lies in the substance of openly imputing that young black men are thugs, not in some hidden subtext.

[bemildred]

80. It's common as dirt.

All euphemisms fit. But a dog-whistle has the implied meaning of instruction, it is intended to get someone to do something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism

[ChazII]

81. So are whites the only

group to speak using 'dog whistles'?

Thank you for your link and it helped clear up some of my misunderstanding.

[bemildred]

82. No. nt

[ChazII]

83. ty. nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

90. While this is obviously not true per se, it does seem to be often used in similar circumstances.

Thug is *not* an inherently racist term, no matter how many times parrots squawk the phrase "code word" without really thinking about what it means.

What *is* true, however, is that it's a word that is disproportionately often applied by political commentators to young black men.

And I think it probably is legitimate to cite that as circumstantial evidence of racism - not because it's a racist word, but because its a derogatory word.

If I regularly call black people "idiots", but don't use the word to describe white people who are guilty of similar low levels of thought, that doesn't mean that I'm using idiot as a code word for "black person", it means that I'm probably carrying out a racistly biases assessment of their intelligence.

[maced666]

92. So.

I have called young whites thugs. If you don't want to be called one stop robbing stores and pull up your pants.

[NaturalHigh]

97. Sorry, you're just wrong.

I've seen the same thing posted here many times. Posting it over and over again doesn't make it true.