Smerconish: ruling Mike Brown killing was a "just result" - was not "a perfectly innocent black man"

[Leopolds Ghost]

• Claims Eric Garner is a better case to show that police brutality is a problem since Michael Brown was not "perfectly innocent"
• and the evidence, such as his hand being 6 inches from the first shot (inside the car) showed "nefarious intent" on the part of Brown
• Repeated the falsehood that Michael Brown stole cigarillos from the convenience store. (he shoved the clerk for harassing him about not showing ID.)
• Claims McCulloch was in a "no-win position" since it would be UNETHICAL for him to bring charges, so he had to throw it to a grand jury to get Darren Wilson off
• Claims the lack of consistency in Wilson's well-rehearsed testimony and the failure to take the 5th in a GJ setting shows Wilson was innocent
• Says medical evidence supports Wilson claiming that Michael Brown "charged" (like a bull, seems to be the expression white prosecutors prefer)
• Says that multiple witness testimony both supported and contradicted Wilson and "as a lawyer" that means no indictment, no probable cause
• Says he wanted to keep his mind open until he read the full Grand Jury report.

BTW, let's not forget how callous both grand juries were towards witnesses in favor of the victim, with the grand jury texting on phones, talking over and ignoring one of the witnesses in favor of Eric Garner, and then cross-examining him (not the cop) asking about Eric Garner's criminal record (something that an ethical prosecutor would have instructed the Grand Jury is unethical and irrelevant under US justice system).

[spanone]

1. so now you have to be 'perfectly innocent' not to die?

[Leopolds Ghost]

2. If you're black, you have to be a model citizen

In order to overcome all those centuries of "evidence" white people have that you are inferior, it seems.

[Bigmack]

13. A) WTF is "perfectly innocent"..?

... None of us is "perfectly innocent".

B) Since when is a lone cop judge, jury, and executioner?

This country is truly fucked.

[BeyondGeography]

3. That's not a statement, it's a career move

The market for "reasonable" R's in his space is drying up. The little man is staking out some more lucrative ground.

[BootinUp]

28. good call. nt

[Leopolds Ghost]

4. Any lawyers here? Can anyone clarify flaws in Smerc's analysis?

There seem to be many flaws, but I am not a lawyer.

I keep hearing these arguments from people who are inclined to give police the benefit of the doubt in these cases.

[Lee-Lee]

5. Umm, no that was a theft not an issue over ID

Dorian Johnson even admitted that Brown stole the cigarillos in his grand jury testimony.

[Prophet 451]

8. Does it matter?

Theft is not a capital offence.

[Lee-Lee]

10. It's being accurate

And when discussing how a jury will view matters, it is relevant. A jury will judge the mindset of a person who just committed a strong arm robbery differently than they will that of a teacher who just left from tutoring disadvantaged youth.

So it matters- you should be accurate in your arguements, and you should understand why what happened just prior affects judgements about subsequent events.

[KingCharlemagne]

14. No, it's not. See my post #11. - nt

[Rex]

31. The lies are sad to watch.

There was no robbery, why do people keep lying in order to push a BS agenda based on lies?

[Rex]

30. LOL!

There was no robbery! Prove it, where is the complaint? Kewl story bro!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. Yes, lies in a post like this do matter. N.T.

[Leopolds Ghost]

56. There are no lies in my post, Mr. NT. See the following post --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025914131#post34
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025914131#post38

You seem extremely wedded to making your case that the victim was a criminal, though. I wonder why? If you're a cop, or a Republican, you should know that even if you weren't wrong about this, you (and the Grand Jury who ignored the testimony of Garner's friend) are civically misinformed about the relevance of the victim's legal history.

[merrily]

9. Umm, SO WHAT?

[KingCharlemagne]

11. You're actually misrepresenting Dorian Johnson's GJ testimony (in Vol. 4). Johnson did not 'admit'

that Brown stole the cigarillos. Johnson implied that, from his perspective, Brown had taken merchandise for which he had not paid. But Johnson also said that Brown 'laughed off' his {Johnson's} concerns, suggesting that Brown may not have believed that he {Brown} stole anything.

Can you 'prove' that Mike Brown stole anything? If not, then you should stop libeling a dead teenager. It's quite unbecoming.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

19. +1

Some of us around here seem awfully invested in perpetuating the unsubstantiated shoplifting ("strong arm robbery" :facepalm story...

[Lee-Lee]

46. Your really, really splitting hairs here

His friend who was with him at the event and saw it believed he had stolen them. Most reasonable people who view that video see a theft- in fact the debate about it being over ID is pretty foolish- what store clerk ribs up a whole case of tobacco then asks for ID after the sale?

If it walks like a duck....

Go to great lengths to contort facts to suit what you want to be. Most reasonable people can view what happened and see a theft, even Johnson did at the time.

To most rational people you just look like a fool who can't accept that something happened you don't like when you insist there wasn't a theft there. And that doesn't help one bit in yor trying to argue the bigger picture.

[KingCharlemagne]

49. That's funny (not in the ha-ha way), since neither the store clerk nor the owner

have alleged a 'theft' of any sort. I'm assuming each has watched the video. So are you saying that the clerk and owner are not reasonable either?

Seems to me you're the one contorting the facts to suit your copologist prejudice.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

21. What has the store clerk said about what happened? As I understand it, the clerk has stated

that the confrontation wasn't about theft.

[Rex]

32. Yet the owner of the store said he didn't steal anything.

But you go on believing in a child killer, the rest of us will deal with reality.

[Prophet 451]

6. "perfectly innocent"

You can be a white kid and smoke a doobie, shoplift, get in fights, even plow a car through four people and get nothing but a slap on the wrist. But if you're black and not "perfectly innocent", you deserve to die.

[FiveGoodMen]

17. The masks are really coming off, aren't they?

They're not even pretending they believe in equality anymore.

[merrily]

7. Since when is "perfectly innocent" the standard for not being shot down

and being left lying on the street for about 4.5 hours?

To all those who disagreed with me when I said that the focus should be on the conduct of the killer, not the conduct of the victim, I hope you finally get why that was, and still is, my position. Wearing a hoodie, rain or not, is not an invitation to get shot. Neither is stealing a cigar or selling loosies. Neither is a 12 year old brandishing a toy gun. It doesn't matter if any of those things actually happened or not. A Garner selling loosies did not deserve to be choked to death any more than a Garner innocent of selling loosies.

As long as we allow the Geraldo Riveras, Rudy Giuiliani's and Michael Smerconish's of the world to shift focus to whether the victim was "perfectly innocent" of wearing a hoodie or of being a teen "thug" or not, we are not being as useful in this as we might be.

Fucking Bernie Madoff was not "perfectly innocent" either. Yet, he survived being arrested.

[kelliekat44]

12. name me some parents hwo really believe their children are "perfectly innocent?" WTF!

Perfectly innocent of what...shoplifiting? I guarantee you there are more white teens in my neighborhood shoplifting and getting away with it,
Mainly because they aren't watched closely.

Innocent of smoking pot? Name me someone who is starting with Smerconish himself.

Just can't face the truth about the man in the mirror. Some people will never be truthful with themselves.

[KingCharlemagne]

15. Who the fuck is Smerconish and why should I give a shit what he or she thinks? - nt

[ChisolmTrailDem]

23. He's a fair weather radio (and now TV) host on CNN. Used to be a pundit on msnbc too. nt

[KingCharlemagne]

24. Someone should shove the obviously perjured testimony of pro-Wilson Witness #40

Last edited Sat Dec 6, 2014, 12:51 PM - Edit history (1)

(in volume 15 of the GJ testimony) right up Smerconish's ass and pull it out his throat!

What a douche.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

25. I have a theory that I can't prove mostly because I don't care that much to ....

..... document exact dates. But I remember when the guy showed up all of the sudden on msnbc with Hardball's Chris Mathews - as a guest and as a fill-in - it seemed awful convenient to the timing of Tweety's brother running for the PA. Republican Lieutenant Governorship. Smerconish was a Philadelphia radio host at the time.

[ladjf]

16. "Hand inside car " shows "nefarious intent". Bull crap!

What would most people do if they saw someone at close range point a gun at them? They would most likely attempt to defend themselves against being shot by grabbing or hitting the weapon. It was , after all, Wilson who drew the gun and stated that he was going to shoot Brown.

America has turned into a ruthless police state, enforced at the local levels by sadistic , sociopathic police people. And yes, it's true that many police personnel are good hearted ,dedicated professionals. But, they appear to be in the minority.

On another note, thousands of household dogs are being ruthlessly killed by policemen, both outside and inside the homes.
Any dog of moderate to large size is "target practice" for the police.

In general, the police are not dedicated to protecting the American People.

[Yo_Mama]

18. Dorian Johnson told the grand jury Brown robbed the store

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news/2014/11/24/dorian-johnsons-testimony-before-the-grand-jury.html

Why do you say he didn't?

[KingCharlemagne]

20. No he didn't. You're misrepresenting Johnson's testimony and trying to use a blind link

Last edited Sat Dec 6, 2014, 02:34 PM - Edit history (2)

to disguise it.

Stop libelling a dead teenager, FFS.

[Ikonoklast]

29. Johnson said exactly that. You can readf the grand jury testimony here:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/11/25/us/evidence-released-in-michael-brown-case.html?_r=0


See page 37 of Johnson's testimony..

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/11/24/ferguson-evidence/assets/gj-testimony/grand-jury-volume-04.pdf


Johnson testified he knew that he had just witnessed a crime and wanted no part of it.

[KingCharlemagne]

39. Johnson also says that Mike Brown had lived in the complex (and, thus,

presumably patronized the Ferguson Market) far longer than Johnson had lived there. So how would Johnson know exactly what payment arrangements Brown had or had not made with the store owner and managers? (This would help explain why the store owner and managers were utterly mystified when police showed up to request a copy of the surveillance video.) For all anyone knows, Mike Brown ran a tab at the store and settled up accounts monthly.

For that matter, Johnson testified that he 'thought' (or 'perceived') that he had witnessed a crime. But he also (on p. 38, ll. 7 ff.) testified that Brown laughed it off as of no consequence, suggesting that Brown evinced no 'consciousness of guilt.'

So you'll have to do far, far better than "Johnson said" this or that to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Mike Brown stole anything at all. Just b/c Johnson says it happened doesn't mean it happened that way AT ALL!

If there was a robbery, where's the sworn affidavit from the store owner (the presumed victim in this crime)? There is none.

[justiceischeap]

37. I have seen TV interviews where Dorian Johnson admits that Brown stole the cigarellos.

Here's a video where Johnson's attorney admits there was a theft:

Here's a video interview with Johnson where at 3:55 the issue of the theft was brought up:

And he's the grand jury testimony http://www.scribd.com/doc/248125095/Dorian-Johnson-s-testimony-before-the-grand-jury

If you start on page 32, line 1, he tells the story of what happens in the store. However, the pertinent part is on page 37, starting on line 14 where is says "I know there was a crime." This is not unequivocal.

I think it's important we stop denying that Brown stole the cigarellos--he did. That said, it doesn't matter whether Brown stole them or not--theft is not a capital offense and he shouldn't have been gunned down like he was.

[KingCharlemagne]

40. How could Johnson 'admit' that

Brown 'did' anything???? The most Johnson can do is 'allege.' Only Brown could admit were he so inclined, and he was extra-judicially executed and thus cannot.

Johnson's account of Mike Brown's response on page 38, ll. 7 ff. is instructive as to whether Brown himself thought he had committed any crime.

BTW, "This is not unequivocal" is what's known as a double negative. I'm pretty sure you meant to write "This is not equivocal."

[AnalystInParadise]

55. Tap dancing

like a spider on a hot plate. Your narrative is in danger...........FASTER SPIDER, FASTER.

[JaneyVee]

22. If petty shoplifting and selling loosies were punishable by death...

My high school would have been a ghost town.

[MiniMe]

26. It wasn't for the cops to decide

That is the job of the courts, at least that was what I was taught in school. The cops are becoming judge, jury, and executioner and that is wrong. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty. My point is their guilt or innocence is not the point here, it is that the judicial process is being short cutted. The "accused" has the right to defend himself, if they are still alive.

edited to fix typo

[Kalidurga]

27. Seems the RW mentality is to shoot first smear later

if you merely suspect a black man of a crime you can shoot him then justify it by showing he had a baggie in his locker with pot residue on it. It doesn't matter that you couldn't have possibly known that, you have proof that the person you killed was a thug.

I think this is the policy they want to be the rule of law. It is defacto law as I type. It is alarming how easily they buy that the police have every right to murder a suspect. I am thinking at this point it is their preference, it saves a lot of court costs and if the person is convicted a lot of money that won't be going into the prison industry.

The only good thing I see from all these extrajudical murders is that the nation is finally waking up to police brutality, institutional racism, and all the reasons these things exist.

[Rex]

33. RWing people are sick in the head, they suffer from hating all living things.

But their anger goes mostly toward those that are different.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

35. It seems like that he's right and you're wrong about the cigarillos. N.T.

[KingCharlemagne]

41. Um, no, I don't think so. Got a sworn affidavit or report signed

by the alleged victim in this case or are you relying simply on an anonymous phone call from an anonymous customer that a theft took place?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. Sworn testimony from Dorian Jones N.T.

[KingCharlemagne]

43. No affidavit from the purported victim = no crime. N.T.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

44. No, you just made that up, it's got nothing to do with reality or the law.

For one thing, it would legalise murder...

[KingCharlemagne]

45. I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me

and sticks to you.

Property crimes are different in nature and scope from crimes against persons.

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. Seriously? "I'm rubber and you're glue"? WTF?

[KingCharlemagne]

50. I was accused of making stuff up, so thought I'd respond in kind. Glad you were

so amused.

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. Adults using children's cliches is a never ending source of amusement for me. My Ex-Wife would say

"I know you are but what am I?", and that's all she'd say for 15-20 minutes sometimes. This from a woman who was in her thirties and forties.

What's next? Sticks and stones?

[KingCharlemagne]

53. I remember the 'rubber-glue' doggerel fondly from PeeWee's Playhouse and

it's the one that has stuck with me.

I'd love to see Eli Gold on The Good Wife let 'er rip just once, in homage to all us old-time fans of Paul Rubens' previous incarnation!

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

36. Smerconish has gone over the deep end

[mariawr]

47. Yes he is. I heard him over the radio taking Wilson's testimony as unvarnished truth. nt

[Skidmore]

52. He's making a bet that Rs will be back in control after 2016 and

that weaselly little varment was practically breathing for GWB when he was in office. When he saw that Dems were going to be in charge of the WH, he had an epiphany and started badmouthing W. Doesn't have anything to do with principle for him.

[gordianot]

38. 18 year olds are in a transition state in brain development and should be reasoned with carefully.

They often do not make good decisions, that is not a capital crime. What happened to telling them to stop put your hands up. Apparently Michael Brown did that on his own and got killed anyway. The real "thug" is Officer Wilson.

[librechik]

54. so getting shot was what he deserved for not being innocent? But EVERYBODY here starts out innocent

then the cops have to prove the crime. Oh and by the way, they don't decide on the street you are guilty and then carry out the execution. Wilson wondered if he could legally shoot him. Not if he could legally arrest Mike Brown.

The answer is NO! you can't legally shoot a suspect unless he shoots at you! and probably not even then, A cop who shoots someone in the line of duty USUALLY has to go through all kinds of shit in the department, suspension and demotion and being assigned off the street and counseling.

Ferguson is not a normal cop shop, They are corrupt top to bottom. That's why nothing happened to Wilson. That's how they do kit there. That was the system working.

[GeorgeGist]

57. Smearconish isn't perfectly innocent ...