Some people want to de-racialize "Black Lives Matter" to "All Lives Matter"

[ellenrr]

Even in this time of great movement and great support for Black liberation, some people cannot allow Black people to define themselves and their struggle.

Do you know where the term came from?

The hashtag #BlackLivesMatter is “an online platform developed after the murder of Trayvon Martin, designed to connect people interested in learning more about and fighting back against anti-black racism,” according to the three black queer women who created it: Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, and Opal Tomet."

http://www.yesmagazine.org/peace-justice/indigenous-view-black-lives-matter-leanne-simpson

Changing it to "All Lives Matter" makes it meaningless.
Yes, all lives matter, but it is Black lives that are being taken, it is Black lives that are being depended by hundreds of thousands stopping traffic and being arrested. It is Black and Brown lives that fill the prisons, and it is Black and Brown communities that are being destroyed by the criminal injustice policy.

so -- back off... do you really have to take *everything*?

[pinboy3niner]

1. Black lives matter

[Warpy]

2. What this is all really about is getting some accountability for the police.

Clearly, they are incapable of doing a competent job of policing themselves. However, that doesn't translate into a catchy slogan and since black folks have borne the brunt of bad cops on a rampage, "Black Lives Matter" is going to stay the rallying cry.

However, this is very likely to morph into a larger movement, putting limits on police power, limiting their firepower by sending the truly ridiculous military hardware back to the military.

For now, trying to de racialize it is premature.

[AverageJoe90]

6. You have a point there.

I'll have to be honest and admit that I originally found myself slightly critical of the #BlackLivesMatter hashtag.....primarily because I wasn't sure if it was really working.....but I did a little rethinking(with some help from a fellow DUer!), and a little bit of cursory research, and eventually came around to "getting it".

[RedCappedBandit]

49. deracializing it will be premature until race is no longer a factor..

gonna be waiting a long time for that moment to arrive

[woo me with science]

64. "For now, trying to deracialize it is premature."

What does that mean, exactly? Because my fear is that we are being expertly mindfucked by a corporate media that wants us to equate seeking actual political change as a result of these protests with "de-racializing" the protests.

Politicians can't pass laws against racism. They can, however, demilitarize the police and roll back predatory corporate policies that keep citizens of communities like Ferguson impoverished and oppressed.

However, this is very likely to morph into a larger movement, putting limits on police power, limiting their firepower by sending the truly ridiculous military hardware back to the military.

For now, trying to de racialize it is premature.

The citizens of Ferguson want this shit to stop, and they are appealing for political help to stop it. They are massing in the streets to get the attention of government because they want something done about their situation.

It is a brilliant corporate mindfuck to suggest that "putting limits on police power, limiting their firepower by sending the truly ridiculous military hardware back to the military" somehow equals "deracializing" the situation.

The *real* insult to residents of Ferguson is the suggestion that their protests should lead merely to an emotional national awareness of the badness of racism, and that their protests should remain meaningless in terms of actual government response.

[Warpy]

71. It means that it's premature, that's what it means.

Cops out of control are going to affect all races, eventually, but that's not happening yet outside of NM. Here, the shootings were pretty much proportional to the racial makeup of the state and predominately of homeless and/or mentally ill people. So were the massive protests last spring and early summer. The point here had to be made that even "throwaway" people had friends and families and the police were going to have to be held accountable to all of them in some way.

This movement will eventually morph into the broader based movement I cited, but that's not happening outside this area because the brunt of police violence is being felt by black folks. Denying that at this point is counterproductive for us all.

[woo me with science]

73. What are the political goals NOW?

What do you want politicians to do NOW? What is the goal of these political protests NOW?

[Warpy]

75. I can't really speak for them

but as a honky with a great deal of sympathy, I want to raise awareness that people are being targeted for the color of their skin and that the DOJ needs to land on more than NM because local justice systems are simply not going to prosecute out of control police, especially when the cop is white and his victim is black.

[woo me with science]

90. They are demanding demilitarization of the police,

among other things. As should we all:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/protests-break-out-nationwide-for-third-day-1417825427

The Ferguson Action website lists several goals, including “demilitarization” of law enforcement, a congressional hearing on alleged racial profiling by police and creation of a National Plan of Action for Racial Justice.

People mass on the streets to get government to do something. We fall for a corporate mindfuck if we buy this absurd talking point that demanding actual policy change equals changing the subject from racism.

To send the message that demands for policy change would be "premature" is perhaps the greatest insult to the protesters that I can imagine.

[brush]

127. Reconvene the grand juries in Ferguson and Staten Island

Since "no true bill" was delivered in both cases, jeopardy does not exist so reconvening the grand juries, with special prosecutors of course, would not constitute double jeopardy of Wilson or Pantaleo. Get the cases of those killers back before a grand jury without the prosecutor shenanigans that went on in the first proceedings so that indictments can be reached.

The protests are great but I think there should be concrete, targeted goals to work to achieve and not just the broad ideals of ending police violence towards people of color.

[951-Riverside]

3. All Lives Matter

Changing it to "All Lives Matter" makes it meaningless.

Kelly Thomas, John Crawford, Jason Conoscenti, Eric Garner, Mike Brown, Jose de la Trinidad, Brian Beaird, Frank Mendoza, John Winkler, Douglas Zerby, Manuel Longoria, Tamir Rice, Dante Parker, Michael Nida, Allen Kephart, Robert Cameron Redus and Hans Kevin Arellano lives mattered and their lives had meaning.

You've got ted bundy types, rapists, racists and gang types in every level of law enforcement MURDERING unarmed people left and right with impunity.

This has to stop NOW!

#AllLivesMatter

[heaven05]

124. proportionally

black lives are taken by police much more than any other race. In these times, black lives matter, in better times all lives will still matter. And the way black lives are being murdered and executed in the numbers that are known today, black lives are the point. And you don't want to believe that, fine.

[951-Riverside]

125. I disagree to a certain degree

In these times, black lives matter

I don't care if its a unarmed black man (Eric Garner) just standing on a street and getting strangled to death or a unarmed homeless white man (Kelly Thomas) being beaten and strangled to death or a Hispanic man (Frank Mendoza) being gunned down for simply trying to escape from a parolee that broke into his house, all lives matter and will continue to matter.

I cannot stand for this idea that a race of people's lives matter over another when gangs of psychos are going around killing everyone, these cops are killing people left and right and it needs to end. If you can't say that All Lives Matter then you've already lost because you've created racial division instead of addressing the problem with mentally ill, gang types within police departments murdering people.

These psycho cops love that some are making it about race instead of about them because they know when a black person gets killed, many whites sit and look the other way and when a white person gets killed many blacks sit and look the other way.

By the way #AllLivesMatter and #BlackLivesMatter while noble in many respects isnt a real goal, as along as police officers with psychological issues are employed within these departments, allowed to kill people with impunity and there isnt a screening process implemented to remove these police officers, no amount of protests, no amount of hash tags, no amount of "additional training", no amount of body cameras will change anything.

Lets not forget about the baby who was blown up in his crib because they didn't want someone they suspected of selling drugs, flushing it.

And lets not forget about the multiple women Fullerton Officer Albert Rincon sexually assaulted while on duty and the Orange County DA declined to press charges but the city settled with 2.

And lets not forget about the bicyclist who was ran over because Deputy Andrew Francis Wood in Los Angeles decided to work on his computer while driving.

They're not only shooting people, they're raping and seriously injuring them too.

Finally, let me remind you that while Mike Brown's murder wasn't captured on tape, Jason Conoscenti was. He was shot in the back multiple times and killed as he ran away from cops, you can see him writhing on the ground as he takes his final breaths.

His crime? Allegedly stealing from a Target store.

This is why I stand firm and say All Lives Matter.

[heaven05]

134. To stand firmly for what you believe in is principled

Last edited Mon Dec 8, 2014, 01:18 PM - Edit history (2)

and admirable. Yet I stand firm in saying and believing that there is a fine line to be tread here in the respecting of all human life((animals too )and the serious issue(s) that surround this recent spate of execution murders of unarmed black males, females and tragically children. I do care if it is a black 12 year old male being shot down like a dog within 1.5 seconds of the arrival of state sanctioned executioners disguised as police officers or a baby in it's crib. It is true that it seems that the recent uptick in police shooting and thuggish violence against american citizens of all races and cultural backgrounds, who are in most cases poor, black and/or indigent with mental illnesses, points only to a 'generic' police violence. If that is all you experience then I do understand that is all you can care about. Well in addition to your concerns, which I have, I have more concern. I have life experience in racism and killers in blue who are able to hide behind a badge to kill without remorse, pity or responsibility. In another thread I do acknowledge that the screening process to weed out these types of remorseless killers is woefully lacking, as in the case of the killer cop who executed 12 year old Tamir Rice

Whether you can stand the fact that people are pointing out the injustice done to one race, and that is an injustice that has been allowed to continue for GENERATIONS by the media, the privileged and the unconcerned, does not negate THE FACT of racist intent in murders of unarmed black people by a racist culture. Of course your examples of rape, incompetence, malfeasance and sociopathology by american police officers illustrates a lack of concern for all police violence but in addition to that concern, I also have concerns of a violence that specifically has it's origins in a systemic and institutionally racist society whose culture of racial bias and violence is on daily display.

Of course the taking of black lives does not mean that the taking of any life unjustly is to be condoned. What does matter, to me, is the intent of racism that is embedded in a lot of these murders. Whether the victim is hispanic as in your video example, check out Eric Garner's video, by the way, or a mentally ill indigent as in the video of the man pleading he was sorry before his life was extinguished, racism is at the bottom of murders in the black community. Perspective is everything and while I AGREE that all lives matter, I also emphatically state and believe that once the murderous racism that is an integral part of the policing culture of this country is scrutinized and put on more public display by the media and proper authorities WITHIN police departments, only then will ALL unjust executions, rapes, storming of suspected drug homes, the injuring of babies drop dramatically. I WILL NOT start discounting racism or diminishing/discounting the unjust murders in the black community, for the whole, which racially and culturally, is not even nearly proportional to the slaughter in the black community of unarmed black males, females and children. Black people, in particular are being killed/executed in unprecedented numbers.

While the police culture of overall violence is all you can see, and I do also, I see also, the racist slaughter going on in the black community every day.

I won't stop saying, "BLACK LIVES MATTER".

[JI7]

4. i'm convinced people who do that are racists

[daredtowork]

10. No it's good intent misplaced

These are people who want to broaden the movement, people who have been waiting for a sign. These are people who have been looking for a banner to march under, who have been waiting for a way to insist that All Lives Matter against the implacable forces that have reduced human beings to mere government statistics.

When they get on the bandwagon, they think they are making the bandwagon bigger, not that they are hijacking the bandwagon.

But they are hijacking the bandwagon. This is something I saw 10 times over with the Occupy marches in Oakland: people desperately trying to grab the march for their own fight until the entire march disintegrated because those with the bullhorns didn't seem to represent the marchers.

It's true that All Lives Matter, but if we want this revolution to succeed, we've got to let it grow on its own terms. And those terms are Black Lives Matter. That's the theme of this revolution.

If people want to call a parallel revolution to rise beside Black Lives Matter, perhaps its worth seeing if people will rally under a different banner instead of trying to "broaden" (i.e. dilute) the one that's already working. Choose something like "Human Dignity for All". If you can't get enough people to rally behind that banner, then that revolution is not ready yet.

Now is the time to show some respect for a successful movement along with heartfelt support.

In the meantime, if you want to address a lingering need to assert that "all lives matter", there are plenty of ways to do that through local action in your community. If you work toward creating ways for people to address injustices in their everyday lives, then you are helping to make their lives matter. That's how to achieve a revolution without marches or banners.

[AverageJoe90]

5. I'm not convinced that it's really a thing, TBH, from all I've seen.

Yes, it may be true that a few trolls out there really *are* attempting to muddy the waters by misusing that hashtag(that is, #AllLivesMatter), but they seem to be in the minority. In fact, I've seen that more than a few folks, including at least a few People of Color, not only don't have a problem with #AllLivesMatter, but have even used it themselves, including in conjunction with #BlackLivesMatter.....and so have I.

If anything at all, it's how it's used that can make the difference between a valid point and a deal breaker.

[daredtowork]

15. hmm - could be a #notyourshield in the making

The tactics of culture jamming have become so sophisticated as to render online discourse almost meaningless. There is no signal-to-noise ratio once everything is coated in noise. One fairly modern tactic among the twitterati is to discredit critical discourse about race/gender/etc. by positing the person of color/gender/etc. on the other side of the debate.

In other words this might be devolving into "if only BlackLivesMatter then the rest of us don't matter - look they rejected our spiffy hashtag!"

Ugh - it would be so disgusting if this were intentional. But it probably is.

[AverageJoe90]

17. And what's really sad is, in that regard.....(apologize for the off-topic semi-rant, but)

As it turns out, upon having done my own research, 4Chan's jackassery ended up pretty much ruining any chances from what could have been a rather legitimate conversation(there have indeed been some real issues with the integrity of gaming journalism in recent years); in fact, it's now rather clear to me that there actually were some individuals who'd been trying to discuss these issues for several years, and yet, they got very little attention at all, until the Zoe Quinn scandal came along. And I'll have to be truthful: as it also turns out, the anti-GG side wasn't entirely innocent of wrongdoing either, including some rather nasty comments coming from some of the less charitable folks(including one who attacked an autistic individual; I forget exactly who, but the proof IS out there).....and frankly, if it weren't for Adam Baldwin getting involved, there might not have been the extreme level of opposition to the "pro-integrity" side of the debate(or at least those who weren't engaging in trolling, etc.).

It was just a sad clusterfuck all around, and I hope the same thing doesn't happen with #AllLivesMatter, because it's frankly valuable part of *this* debate.

[XemaSab]

47. And what's really sad is the anti-GamerGate side wasn't entirely innocent either

and there might not have been the extreme level of opposition to the "pro-integrity" side of the debate.

Am I seriously reading this on DU?

The OP is about the hashtag #blacklivesmatter, so of course it's a perfect opportunity to talk about the wrongs that women have perpetrated in the gaming world.

What the actual fuck is your problem?

[JTFrog]

69. Just take the free money dude.

Unless someone is already paying you a dime for every time you use a phrase with the the words "truth" or "honest" in them, the free money is a great deal for you.

[XemaSab]

76. Clueless?

I suspect far more nefarious motives.

[R B Garr]

98. +1 n/t

[AverageJoe90]

83. Speak for yourself. #LookInTheMirror. nt

[LeftyMom]

80. Did you really take a thread about police violence against black people and hijack it

to whinge about feminists picking on gamers?

That's taking the assholish trend of #notallmen #alllivesmatter #crimingwhilewhite let's-make-this-about-meeeeeeee dominant party hijacking of social concerns to a new level of dickishness. GOOD JOB.

[AverageJoe90]

82. There was no hijacking. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Someone brought this other subject up and I responded to said point. Simple as that.

[Number23]

100. No one brought up any other subject. Just your usual and unending campaign to distort

and change the subject of EVERY SINGLE RACE THREAD.

Take the money and take a HIKE.

[marym625]

35. Please explain "real thing"

You can't, I hope, possibly mean the overt racism and astronomical statistics proving black people and other people of color are systematically, unapologetically, targeted by cops. I hope.

[AverageJoe90]

84. My apologies, but I thought I was clear......

I guess there might have been room for error, so I'll try to clarify things further.

From all that I've seen, #AllLivesMatter seems to have been a rather genuine phenomenon, primarily because a lot of the activists, including more than a few P.O.C., are using it themselves, sometimes in conjunction with #BlackLivesMatter. There have been a few trolls and other malcontents trying to hijack the 'tag for less scrupulous motives(I actually called someone out for doing that on Twitter, btw), that is true, but they are a minority, as far as it can be seen.

[Kali]

103. wtf are you saying about trolls?

[AverageJoe90]

105. I'm not sure why you're having an issue understanding that.....no offense meant.

But you can check for yourself, if you'd like. Do you have a Twitter account(and no, I'm not going to ask you to reveal your username, if you do, unless you decide to reveal it anyway)?

[marym625]

120. Sorry, I still don't see what you mean is

"A real thing." I get what you are saying but not what is not real.

I haven't seen any people of color using All instead of Black. Not saying it hasn't happened, just haven't seen it.

I have, however, seen more than a few of the leaders and their followers condemn the hijacking of the movement. I have talked to them about it. This is not just about Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, Eric Garner, Akai Gurley, VonDerritt Myers, John Crawford III, Kajieme Powell and Rumain Brisbon, all killed by police in fewer than 5 months. All black. All but one, Kajieme Powell, unarmed. And he was obviously having a mental breakdown and had a knife. It's about the systematic racism.

Of course all loves matter but using that detracts from what is going on in this country. The percentages of people of color pulled over, arrested, convicted, jailed and the length of the sentences is much higher than that for white people. But white people are more likely to have drugs on them. Cities use fines for their revenue and they target non white people and areas to do this.

There's no point in me telling you the same things I and others have told you before. The movement started and grew because of how horrible people of color are treated by police and the system. The fact a black person is 4 times more likely to be shot by a cop than a white person. That a person of color is 31 X more likely to be pulled over and arrested, 6 X more likely to be jailed and the jail sentences are longer.

To ignore and usurp "Black Lives Matter" is to ignore and minimize that. To ignore and minimize that is what allows racism to continue.

Being a cop showed me just how racist and violent the police are. There’s only one fix. 

But more and more, I felt like I couldn’t do the work I set out to do. I was participating in a profoundly corrupt criminal justice system. I could not, in good conscious, participate in a system that was so intentionally unfair and racist. So after five years on the job, I quit. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/06/i-was-a-st-louis-cop-my-peers-were-racist-and-violent-and-theres-only-one-fix/ 


It's very real.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/09/you-really-can-get-pulled-over-for-driving-while-black-federal-statistics-show/

[marym625]

7. K&R!

Some people cannot accept that there is a war on black people, more specifically, young black men. The fact that young black are killed 4x more than white people, doesn't matter to them. When you actually think about those statistics, with only about 12% of the population being black people, to be killed by cops 4x more often, that's fucking staggering

It's racist to change it and it's awful people don't get that

[SoapBox]

8. Just curious...

What about Hispanic men? What is their death rate as compared to whites?

[marym625]

11. I can pull it in the morning

Too tired to even do the math I just talked about.

I believe that it's in a vox article.

[marym625]

41. Please see my reply in post 39

Sorry, in a real hurry now. I know it doesn't answer your question directly but I would rather get you something than wait until I have more time

[madville]

31. Is that 4x number per capita or total?

Is the 4x number just young males? Just wondering since so many numbers are out there. Most recent ones I saw were that total there were 123 black deaths at the hands of police and 227 non-Hispanic white deaths in 2012.

So total there were 1.85x more white than black deaths at the hands of police. But if we count that the US demographics are 13% black and 56% non-Hispanic white, it works out to 1:333,000 for black people and 1-780,000 for white people.

So by those numbers it appears black people are 2.3x more likely to be killed by the police.

Not disputing the number you presented, just adding some more, 2.3x more across all ages is still an unacceptable ratio.

[marym625]

34. Sorry, I have to run

But some of the statistics are in the mother Jones article linked in this post. I don't believe age was included at all. There are articles from other publications linked within the Mother Jones article (don't see that too often.)

I would have a better answer if I had some time. But yeah, not acceptable.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025910908

[marym625]

39. Just quickly

Here's a Washington Post article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/08/how-many-police-shootings-a-year-no-one-knows/

Bureau of Justice Statistics

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=82

Problem is, these numbers are not kept. There are no actual statistics anywhere because they just don't want the information out there. Many places are trying desperately to get the truest numbers together. But until it is required to be reported, it's going to be just an "as close as possible" figure.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

9. that sounds the same as men who argue with #Women'sLivesMatter

Or, #YesAllWomen.

Same kind of resentful derailing.
Better to respect and join in support of another.

[marym625]

12. Great analogy

But I am sure it will fall on deaf ears.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

79. let it....but keep saying it!

if you keep saying it, they will hear!

[marym625]

117. I hope so. n/t

[Hekate]

13. Pretty much what I was thinking, Blanche. There's some anti-choice group that co-opts ....

....the pro-choice message like that.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

81. yep. overly scrupulous.

kind of a melting pot mindset....but equality and respect for Other people doesn't reduce to assimilation. ESPECIALLY the kind of forced assimilation pushed by the folks saying "You should shut up about YOUR unique experience, your history.

I want to see something more like our grouphug-emojie. Each one's different, but all facing each other, holding hands in unity.

[daredtowork]

77. That's what I was trying to say (but a lot more concise!) +1

Thanks for getting to the heart of the issue.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. interesting

[Luminous Animal]

16. Well that sucks.

[Odin2005]

18. The racist cannot comprehend people of color except in relation to white people.

It's little different that the MRA sexists ranting about how "Femi-Nazis" ignore male rape victims.

[XemaSab]

115. Damn straight

Straight, able-bodied, cis-gendered, white men are normative, and everyone else is a deviation from the norm.

I've been musing lately on how it's the unstated goal of most white people in the US (even progressives) to get black people to act more like white people. We're normative; you're not; you need to change.

It's a depressing line of thought.

[Odin2005]

116. And "normal" is often defined as what is favorable to the Capitalist ruling class.

Most people with Asperger's Syndrome, for example, are unemployed, not because we can't work, but because we don't fit inside of a narrow definition about how we SHOULD work.

[oberliner]

118. Will people still be using the term cis-gendered ten years from now?

There has got to be a better word to use than that.

[Enthusiast]

19. Kicked and recommended!

The racists are attempting to muddy the water.

[Marrah_G]

20. well said

[uponit7771]

21. Black Males Are 21 Times More Likely To Be Shot By Police Than White Males

[NutmegYankee]

97. Which do you think is true?

[stone space]

22. I don't do twitter, so I really don't understand how hashtags work.

My impression is that there are many thousands of hashtags, and that they all coexist simultaneously, not that they are changed from one hashtag to another.

I could be wrong.

[HappyMe]

23. It's a pathetic thing to do.

Black people are targeted far more than whites.

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. Some people can't stand it when something's not about them

In this case, they're mostly white people who feel sad and left out because they're not part of the "oppressed group," as if they missed being invited to a party. These people are obviously self absorbed morons. Tell them you're sorry for their hurt feelings and move on, they're not even worth a conversation.

[randome]

25. Chris Rock was right when he said black progress has mostly been because of whites...

...changing their perceptions and stopping being racist.

So I think it's a good thing to include all people in the collective 'lives matter'. Otherwise, it gives free ammunition to the angry white males who think this is nothing more than a power play.

Obama said much the same thing when he said this is about law enforcement, not race.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[840high]

126. Reverance for all lives.

[CJCRANE]

26. I don't see why both can't be used at the same time.

They reinforce each other.

And the shooting in Hollywood illustrates the message that everyone needs to stand up for their rights should grow stronger and stronger.

[AverageJoe90]

85. And, in fact, they have been!

Some P.O.C. activists have used it, too.....that was a giveaway to me, personally.

[Bonobo]

27. Rec. I agree completely.

We'll said. A great OP!!

[JaneyVee]

28. Internet colonialism sucks.

[Half-Century Man]

29. Black Lives Matter.

This is grassroots movement started by the affected persons. I do not feel anyone should be able to usurp this from them. If they choose to share it, fine.

If you absolutely have to expand on it, Then start the meme with "Black lives matter", and add to it as needed from there, end it with "All lives matter".

IMHO, replacing Black with All, just says the Black lives aren't so important. That's the way it looks to me.

[ellenrr]

30. Obviously all lives matter. And no one is saying it is ok if people who aren't Black are killed by

police.
I'm sure some people who prefer the tag "all lives" have good intentions; they want to be inclusive.
But they miss the point - that it is Black people who bear the brunt of homicide by cop.

[marym625]

37. Do you feel like,

With some, you're talking to a wall? I do.

[ellenrr]

38. oh man, try talking to real bigots!...

I think it is fairly nice here, at DU. There is another forum I'm on, which I joined for gardening, and also for a forum on electronics, where I got good advice on wifi and such.

then I noticed threads on Ferguson, etc.
omg, some of them are so totally racist that it makes me want to puke.
So everyone once in a while I got to these threads to post an article, but I stopped reading the responses.

There are a couple of good people there, but too many ignorant bigots, and yes...
talking to a wall... in this case, they do not want to hear any opinion than their own. Anything a cop does is ok. (someone said there are cops on the forum, which explains a lot).

The only reason I post there at all is a) to poke at the bigots. and b) to support the few good people there.

[marym625]

43. You are really awesome

I wish DU had some kind of a follow thing. I love your posts, and more than a few others. But I know I miss a great deal.

I am glad you are not seeing it here. It is here. Even on this thread. A relentless attempt to negate the mantra.

Hopefully, I will get my stuff done in time to make it to a Black Lives Matter demonstration today.

Have a great day ellenrr!

[ellenrr]

50. why thank you, Marym! I've never gotten such a nice comment on DU.:)

I believe you that racism is here.

I hope you make it to the demo.
I learned this morning that in my town yesterday a group of protesters closed a highway! wow. I missed that one. pity.
They said there were plenty of cops there, but they didn't bother anyone, and no one got arrested.

I'm going to see if anything is happening today.

have a good time.

[AverageJoe90]

108. DU isn't perfect, but yeah, from my own personal experience.....

Most folks here are genuinely nice, it seems, even if we disagree on stuff at times(such as Obama's policies, our involvement in Middle East affairs, etc.).

[ellenrr]

42. Isn't Staten Island known to have a lot of cops who live there? nt

[woo me with science]

48. Okay, so what are the goals of the protests, to address racism?

I was pilloried by the Third Way on another thread for suggesting that we should demand demilitarization of our police forces or changes in corporate policies that keep minority communities impoverished. That, apparently, was too much to ask.

So what *is* the goal of these massive political protests? What are we asking
politicians to do?

[socialist_n_TN]

32. Yep, I don't agree with trying to change this solgan at this time......

There's a WIDE disparity between the amount of violence the black community suffers from the police and the amount of violence everyone else suffers. That's also true historically and that needs to be acknowledged.

HOWEVER, attributing the best of motives to at least some of the people who are trying this out and as others have said in this thread, this is probably a ill-conceived move to try and broaden the movement. What we face, and have always faced, in the white community is an apathy about this on-going situation with violence against people of color. When you attempt to frame it as all lives matter, I do believe that you are trying to get through to the white community that this affects them too. It's not JUST a "black" problem, it's everyone.

I've tried to address this apathy by acknowledging that police violence falls on black folk most heavily, but that just being white doesn't make you immune to police violence. It CAN happen to anybody who's in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong group of cops.

In fact I'll go a little further here and make a prediction. Before this is over there WILL be unarmed whites shot by cops that will make the news because the power structure needs to show that this isn't "racial", it's just "mistakes". That's just the PTBs they react to these types of negative PR. It WILL happen.

Edited to add: IF the killing of white kids is successful in blunting the effects of this negative PR, then what you'll see is the cops going back to targeting the black communities like they historically have. And the only white people who will be in danger are the "troublemakers" and "anarchists". Just wanted to clarify.

[ellenrr]

33. you make a good point... two things are true

one is that there is a problem of police oppression of ALL citizens.
the other is the disproportionate amount of lethal force (and non-lethal force) that is applied to people of color.

somehow we have to make both points.

It's like every social ill.
I think education sucks in this country. Everywhere, from Harvard to Newark. Fundamently, the purpose of the educational system is to prepare people either to be blood-suckers like Lawrence Summers, or to be compliant members of the working/non-working class.

so all people suffer from the educational system.
but people of color in the inner city suffer a lot more.

Imo, at this time, when the movement is so strong to express opposition to racism, and maybe a time for an honest discussion of racism, that should be the focus.

[socialist_n_TN]

57. "somehow we have to make both points". Yep, that's it in a nutshell.......

Since I model myself on the Bolsheviks, I've always been of the opinion that my responsibility in agitation on a "national" or "ethnic" question is NOT agitation towards the ones being especially oppressed, but my agitational responsibility is towards my ethnicity, trying to make them see what the problem is from a empathetic perspective.

My responsibility towards the especially oppressed minority is mainly support. I'm not going to shut up if there's something that goes against principle or historical tactics that have proven to work, but ultimately, even in these cases, all I can do is state my opinion and my reasons for those opinions and then let it go and let history judge whether my view was correct or not. The especially oppressed minority MUST be the point of the spear in the resistance to the oppressors.

[nashville_brook]

36. i've seen this used on signage by protestors

and thought the same thing. bit my tongue, b/c i'd rather that people come out and protest than get into a semiotic debate.

[woo me with science]

44. What are the political goals of the protests?

[ellenrr]

52. you seem to be asking me the question?

I have no idea.

I suspect many have no goal; they are expressing outrage.

When I go on the street, I have no "political goal". I am simply expressing how I feel by putting my body on the line.
Someone said:
'Activism is the rent we pay for being on this earth.'

partly that, but more it is to satisfy my inner conviction that something is wrong, and I want to stand against it.

I don't think my being on the street (or thousands being on the street) is going to change anything.

Also - cuz it's fun. Being an activist is the most fun I know.

[woo me with science]

61. I think they absolutely have a goal. They want this shit to STOP.

And they want political action to help stop it.

Political protest did not erupt in Ferguson because protesting is a "fun activity." It is an appeal for help from our government to change the hell they are living in.

I think we live immersed in corporate propaganda that is deliberately trying to pervert our understanding of what protest is supposed to accomplish. To lower our expectations about what it can accomplish. I think we are being taught that protest is just a sport like they have taught us that elections are just a sport. We are supposed to choose a team and go out there and protest, but we are to have absolutely no expectation that the protests will lead to any positive political change.

The purpose of political protest *is* political change. Rosa Parks sat at the front of the bus so that *laws* would be changed to build a society that created expectations of greater equality through its very structure. The understanding was that political pressure and policy were used to CREATE the type of society we wanted, and attitudes would follow.

The protesters want this shit to stop. And they want political action to help stop it.

We can start by demanding an end to the programs that militarize police. These are federally driven and can be ended just as they were expanded over the past six years. We need *reversal* of the weaponization of our police departments. We need a national database of police violence and murder so that we can track the government's response to these crimes. And we need relentless attention from the DOJ to crimes of police against citizens until this shit STOPS.

These are concrete things we can demand, and we must demand them.

[etherealtruth]

45. Of course "all lives matter"

The issue at hand is the disproportionate brutality that people of color experience at the hands of the police. This appears to be an attempt to deflect attention from that outrageous fact.

"Black lives matter" does not detract from the value of other lives .... it seeks to point out and insist black lives have equal value with all others.

[woo me with science]

51. Yes, and how do we address that disproportionate brutality?

What is the goal of these massive political protests?

What are we asking politicians to do?

[etherealtruth]

53. Change the way we police ....?

Change police training .... and enforce those changes ....?

Hold officers accountable when police protocols and procedures are violated ?

Bringing attention to police brutality and the disproportionate brutality toward people of color is a good first step. These protests are doing that .... they are forcing people to confront this issue.

[ellenrr]

54. I agree

this will come out of it:
"Bringing attention to police brutality and the disproportionate brutality toward people of color is a good first step. These protests are doing that .... they are forcing people to confront this issue."

and that is a good thing.

At the end of the day, tho, I think we need a whole system (capitalism, patriarchy, etc) overhaul. Short of that, Black men will continue to be the victims of police.

[woo me with science]

59. The goal of political protests has to be political change.

The protests are "forcing people to confront this issue."

What does confronting it mean? What are we demanding? What can we leverage these political protests to accomplish in terms of policy right now?

Demanding an end to police militarization is an important start, I think, and it is something that can and must be demanded now.

We need a public, federal database of police violence and murders, so that we can track the government's response to these crimes.

And we need relentless Department of Justice attention to cases of police brutality and criminality, until this garbage stops.

[randome]

63. The federal database idea is the only concrete suggestion in your list.

It's a good one but add to it:
* Body cameras.
* Renewed training in de-escalation over firepower.
* Independent investigations of all police-related shootings.

That seems like a more definitive list. Concrete demands are essential.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[woo me with science]

65. Ending the federal programs that militarize police is a very concrete demand.

These programs have been resurrected and exploded under the Obama administration. The militarization can and must be stopped and reversed.

[randome]

66. I have no argument with ending the program.

But isn't it something like 1% of military equipment given to police is considered high powered? Obama is at least proposing more strict reviews of such giveaways.

But I won't quibble. Ending the program entirely is fine with me. If nothing else, it contributes to the mindset of being at war with the citizens.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[questionseverything]

99. cops caught illegally spying on protesters

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025920881

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. well stated

[Rolo]

46. I wouldn't think it was a big deal

if the racists thought of Blacks as equal people. Instead they're considered 'thugs' & 'savages', not entitled to equal justice. So, yeah - it is a big deal.
But is a racist going to change their hating just by reading a hashtag? Sadly no.

[handmade34]

55. "Black Lives Matter"

period.

[MerryBlooms]

56. rec & kick

[kelliekat44]

58. ++++10000000 nt

[Mojo Electro]

60. Kelly Thomas's life mattered too. n/t

[ellenrr]

68. I'm kinda afraid to ask, it sounds like it should be somebody I know of, but who is Kelly Thomas? nt

[Karmadillo]

88. Murdered by Fullerton, CA police in 2011.

His life mattered, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas

<edit>

On July 5, 2011, at about 8:30 PM, officers of the Fullerton Police Department responded to a call from the management of the Slidebar[20] that someone was vandalizing cars near the Fullerton Transportation Center. While investigating, they encountered the shirtless and disheveled Thomas and attempted to search him. According to statements given by the officers, Thomas was uncooperative and resisted when they attempted to search him, so backup was called.[21] "Now you see my fists?" Fullerton police officer Manny Ramos asked Thomas while slipping on a pair of latex gloves. "Yeah, what about them?" Thomas responded. "They are getting ready to fuck you up," said Ramos. A video of the event surfaced, and Thomas can be heard repeatedly screaming in pain while officers are heard repeatedly asking him to place his arms behind his back.

He audibly responds "Okay, I'm sorry!" and "I'm trying!" while the officers stretch his arm back. The police officers claim that, unable to get Thomas to comply with the requests, they used a taser on him (up to five times according to a witness statement, and the video footage), and in the video Thomas can be heard screaming "Dad! Dad!".[22] Six officers were involved in subduing Thomas, who was unarmed and had a history of mental illness. Thomas was initially taken to St. Jude Medical Center in Fullerton but was transferred immediately to the UC Irvine Medical Center with severe injuries to his head, face, and neck.[23] One of the paramedics testified that he was first instructed to attend to a police officer's minor injury and then noticed Thomas lying unconscious in a pool of blood.[24][25]

Orange County District Attorney Tony Rackauckas gave a detailed account of the events during a press conference on September 21, 2011. Using digital audio recording devices carried by the officers, surveillance video from a pole camera on YouTube at the Fullerton Transportation Center, and other evidence, Rackauckas provided evidence that Thomas did comply with orders from Officer Ramos, who had put on latex gloves and asked Thomas "Now see my fists? They are getting ready to fuck you up."[26] Rackauckas went on to describe how Thomas begged for his life, before being struck repeatedly by the officers. He was admitted to the hospital, slipped into a coma, and died five days later.[27]

more...

[ellenrr]

94. so terrible...

[Orsino]

67. All lives matter.

When They make us forget that, it becomes easier to sell us on black lives mattering less. It becomes easier for us to devalue gay lives, or Arab lives. Racism is not just a blight on the soul; it is also a tool of the powerful who don't value anyone's life.

All lives matter. Rather than losing focus through this acknowledgment, we could be gaining perspective.

[OrwellwasRight]

86. Most in America don't need to be reminded that white lives matter.

But do need to be reminded that black lives do. #AllLivesMatter says zero about economic and political power in this country. #BlackLivesMatter does.

[Matariki]

70. Seems a large majority of people don't want to face up to America's racism problem

I keep hearing folks wanting to describe things as anything but - "it's a class problem", "it's a poverty issue". I heard a discussion about Ferguson on NPR where one guy was trying to say that police shootings are more of a "people with disabilities" problem - arguing that people shot by police often have a mental disability.

If America actually acknowledged that black Americans are the victims of social and economic injustice, that black men are disproportionately arrested, shot by police, and incarcerated - that would be admitting a serious unfairness in our society that is the collective fault of our nation. And then we'd have to do something to address that unfairness. And not enough people seem to want to do that.

[MisterP]

74. "ALM" is good on its own--but if one says it in response to "BLM" *then* it's an effort

to dilute it: *then* it's an attempt to "correct" "BLM"; I'd say chanting "BLM, ALM, BLM, ALM ..." passes muster, too, since it puts them into each other's context rather than trying to replace or "correct" "BLM"

[Omnith]

87. All lives should have the same rights

[boston bean]

89. It's another angle to the "notallmen" meme.....

A way to take away from the point. Deflect from the issue.

I am in agreement with your feelings.

[AverageJoe90]

107. Not really, though. Not by itself.

As I've pointed out elsewhere on here, yes, there are a few trolls & other malcontents out there who actually HAVE misused it for some less-than-scrupulous purposes---I have actually called out at least one person on Twitter for doing that---but for the most part, many don't seem to have an issue with it, at least as long as it's being used for the right reasons; I have used both myself, and haven't encountered any problems, and many of the activists I've seen, including a fair number of People of Color, have used #AllLivesMatter themselves, including in conjunction with #BlackLivesMatter.

[noiretextatique]

91. both and...not either or

simple concept. black lives matter, all lives matter. give the recent spate of police killings, i do not understand the need for privilege.

[Hatchling]

92. Reminds me of Animal Farm.

What's after that? All Lives matter, but some lives matter more?

People who want to change Black Lives Matter are uncomfortable with the feelings that phrase evokes. Good.

[gollygee]

95. I haven't seen any hashtag called #blacklivesmattermore

And I know you haven't either.

African Americans are treated as if their lives have less value than the lives of white people in our society, and this hastag is standing up against that unfair treatment. Unfair treatment that has been particularly evident lately with how easily African Americans are killed and how easy people find it to justsify those killings.

[Hatchling]

121. No, no.

You misunderstood me. Or I wasn't clear enough with my allusion.

I believe #blacklivesmatter should absolutely not be changed.

To dilute it to #all lives matter# is just an opening to blacks lives don't matter as much.

[gollygee]

123. Aaaah OK

Sorry

[SummerSnow]

102. Were not allowed to be angry or mourn. were not allowed to speak against injustice.

[NaturalHigh]

104. "Changing it to "All Lives Matter" makes it meaningless."

Seriously? I'm glad I don't use the twitter so I don't have to worry what sort of hashtag might offend someone.

[AverageJoe90]

106. I've used both on Twitter myself....

Believe it or not, though, it doesn't seem like there's that many folks who have an issue with the tag itself; in fact, some activists, including a fair number of People of Color, I've seen, have used it themselves, sometimes in conjunction with the original #BlackLivesMatter tag.

[NaturalHigh]

109. That's good to know.

Seriously, I don't know anything about twitter "etiquette" because I've never been on it, but I just can't believe that this sort of thing could upset somebody and lead to accusations of racism.

[AverageJoe90]

110. There are a few extremists out there, and they can be LOUD sometimes.

I actually got into a brief argument with another moron on Twitter, who was misusing the #BlackLivesMatter tag, and changing it to #OnlyBlackLivesMatter. I pasted a couple of his comments for you:

ded @wdFier · Dec 5

@Russian_Starr YES! should be #OnlyBlackLivesMatter. Sick of these racists

ded @wdFier · Dec 5

@phredRanger @yost_infection is a RACIST. #OnlyBlackLivesMatter

So yeah, I guess that's a problem, too. These trolls also seem to be only a small number, though, and hopefully they stay that way.

[NaturalHigh]

111. Wow! WTF?

One more reason I'll never sign up. Seems like a cesspool.

I have to wonder if that is just some guy stirring shit, but I admit I've seen some crazies who would post stuff like this.

[bhikkhu]

112. Both statements are true

and I agree with both. I think there should be enough good will and open-mindedness to avoid argument (though the internet will likely disagree).

[Euphoria]

113. Black lives matter.

[PowerToThePeople]

114. Black lives matter.

[loyalsister]

119. Black Lives MAtter

maybe... almost.... finally?

People are finally paying attention and considering the possibility that black lives are still not valued the same as whites lives.

It is a message that needs to be repeated because that fact is finally beginning to resonate.
I fully agree. If people want to make the message more white people friendly, they are denying the humanity of the victims and their families in order to make white people feel more comfortable.

[Cleita]

129. "Animal Farm"

I think the quote by the head pig was,

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."

Been a long time since I read it but I think it's close.

I think this is what was meant. It diminishes the real problem of those who think they are superior to others but claim they aren't.

[marym625]

130. FFS!

Some people just can't allow anything to not include them. Or more likely, allow for anything to be about black people, statistics be damned!

[loyalsister]

131. + 1000

I'm glad I missed whatever the reply to my post was.
At this point, if someone talks about how far we've come, my response will be- SERIOUSLY????? It's as if many of us were deluded for over 30 yrs about what kind of country we have been living in.
Those of us who are white are being educated about what our black friends have known for a very long time. I wish more were receptive.

[marym625]

132. Have to give MIRT credit

They get those quickly

But some people deny their racism and wrap it in "all" because that looks good to them. Dog forbid anyone actually acknowledge that black people are targeted and killed and abused at a rates between 4 and 31 X more often than whites (depending on which thing) and ignore completely that when you take the population percentages into consideration, those numbers are astronomical.

Eric Garner, John Crawford III, Mike Brown, Akai Gurley, VonDerritt Myers, Kajieme Powel, Tamir Rice and Rumain Brisbon all in less than 5 months. And they still don't get it. And that's what we know about.

I hate it. And I can't stand them and their flimsy bullshit excuses for not allowing centuries of oppression to have it's own mantra. Fuck those bitches CONSTANTLY trying to usurp, Black lives matter. Fuck them and fuck the white horse they came riding in on.

Just fuck them.

BLACK LIVES MATTER!

[marym625]

133. Here you go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025926869