General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo, who here's been stop & frisked on basis of description "middle-aged white male, business suit"?
How many white grand-jury-deniers here on DU have ever been stopped by the police for driving or walking down the street in a suspicious area, where pedestrians or white drivers aren't usually seen, or detained and frisked for jaywalking? How many of you fit the profile of a middle-aged white person, i.e. prone to (white collar?) crime?
Inquiring minds want to know.
White person here, btw.
olddots
(10,237 posts)Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Do you meet the description of a white-collar criminal (middle-aged, white, business attire), and if so, how respectful was the cop of your rights?
I'll start: While I don't meet the description entirely, I am very white, and I was stopped for talking loudly to a friend on the sidewalk (several of my friends are black, and the police are always coming around and flashing lights at us and wondering what we are doing hanging out in front of our workplace at night after work). The cop pointed out that the jurisdiction line was that way and told me to get walkin'. A friend who is black pointed out he would have been spread-eagled for responding the way I did.
Here's another: I know of a person who's serving a life sentence for shooting a heavy-set white person (who happened to be a white supremacist, Aryan Nation type, apparently) who was charging them, threatening to kill them by throwing them over a ledge. The white person was treated as the sole victim by the prosecutor.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)But then, people on DU do tend to fit in with the "cynical white male" and/or "security mom" demographic.
I Know It's Not P.C. But... Sam Harris, Gamergate, Anti-Muslim Secularism and the Angry White Male
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Of the city due to being white a few times as a matter of fact. My African American coworker has told me that it would not be a good idea to visit her.
RandiFan1290
(6,239 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)No sexual interest on either part so it is not that.
pscot
(21,024 posts)I was crossing a bridge over the Chicago river. It was late and it was snowing hard so I cut across the middle of the street. An old cop was standing there all bundled up in a slicker and nailed me. He threatened me with a ticket and then asked for money instead. When I said I didn't have any he explained that it was customary to keep a $5 bill behind your drivers license at all times for just such contingencies. I was lucky. He let me off with a warning.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)The old police officer in the slicker in the rain was not.
pscot
(21,024 posts)near City Hall, probably easing his way toward retirement. I don't think he was in any pain.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)LostInAnomie
(14,428 posts)Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Anansi1171
(793 posts)Not that those criminals are often prosecuted.
A point that probably dovetails with white guys conveniently seeing everyone else as criminals?
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Don't forget, "middle class white guilt" began with Baby Boomers in the '80s who felt angst over "selling out" and becoming conservative members of the professional class like their parents. The ones who "made it" that is. (We never hear the voices of people who didn't do well financially in the 80s and 90s, not unless they became drug kingpins or something.) The whole Doonesbury phenomenon.
ecstatic
(32,729 posts)It's something you have to literally see to believe--but that would require having a diverse set of friends that you actually spend time with outside of work or school.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)regardless of their race.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Because you know why? Race isn't the only predictor of how TPTB will treat you.....so, too, are gender and class. And, in fact, a sloppy-looking poor white guy in a beat-up old truck is actually more likely to be wrongfully harassed than a nicely-dressed black or Latino fellow in a suit, even if he's more upper-middle class than wealthy. .
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Like Henry Louis Gates in front of his house, iirc. Another person argued with Giuliani on TV, a black journalist who had been personally stopped more than once as well.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)All I'm saying here, is, again, race isn't the only factor. And just so we're clear, I'm not denying racial disparities, nor anyone's personal experiences, for that matter. But if we focus only on ONE aspect, aren't we missing the bigger picture?
And, also, from what I've seen, the police don't seem to be terribly representative of many major cities, in general, including, and perhaps especially, Los Angeles, which was notorious for having a fair number of reactionary Right-Wingers in it's force back in the '80s, early '90s.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)I don't dispute that. Race and class are linked, but not just in the normal way people think -- in quite the opposite problem, really. Namely that the myth of white superiority and "middle class-ness" is actually propped up by the mistaken belief in cultural solidarity -- with the wealthy, who look like them, and who most people assume live like them and care about them, (and implicitly want to protect them from the "other" but don't.
I.e. most white Americans identify with their bosses, and aspire to be like their bosses.
Unless their bosses happen to be black, or otherwise different from them. Lol.
Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #15)
Post removed
ismnotwasm
(41,999 posts)Right? You don't actually believe that? Please tell me you don't actually believe that.
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)went to interview a businessman, the cameraman in his hippie garb was let right through, while the journalist in his suit was stopped and questioned by building security. No points for guessing right which of them was black and which was white.....
However, some refuse to let go of their blinders, and refuse to believe or even listen to people's own experiences, nor statistics that support those lived experiences....they are the expert in every subject, and everyone else are wrong, even when they have absolutely no experience in the matter and everyone else has plenty. There are none so blind as those who will not open their eyes, ears, or mind, after all.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Who was denying anyone's personal experiences, on this thread? Honest question here.
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)Bravenak, noiretextatique, 1strongblackman, JustAnotherGen, and many others. You disregard what they say, what they tell you about how black people experience reality in the US. It is a disconcerting trend with you.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And if you can't provide proof of these allegations, then I'd like to kindly ask you to stop levelling this attack against me, because no such thing was done here; not ONCE did I deny anyone's personal experiences on this thread. Again, Where is your proof?
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)And notice that every time this accusation gets leveled, there's no actual proof. Doesn't that say something?
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Please do note, that I didn't say, or imply, that wealthy black men were *immune* from being frisked, etc.; however, though, class does indeed play a rather significant role in how you are treated: a wealthy, or even just upper-middle class, well-dressed black or Latino really is quite a bit less likely to suffer thru that kind of harassment than some poor white dude in a beat-up old pickup or van, etc., at least in most areas.....although it can be admitted that the poor white dude would actually be better off than the poor black or Latino in this regard(that I won't dispute, because this is also true), it doesn't change the facts of the matter. Race is not, and has not been for some time, the *only* predictor for how one is treated by police; we must acknowledge class as well, or we fail to understand the entire problem.
csziggy
(34,137 posts)In a small Southern town, that was considered to be an offense in the 70s.
jmowreader
(50,562 posts)One fine evening in 1992, I went to the mall in Watertown to see a movie. Afterward, it was nice outside and fairly early so I decided to walk back to post. It was only nine miles and 10th Mountain required you to walk 12 with a rucksack on in three hours or less every six months, so why not?
I made it all the way to post without incident. About a mile past the gate, I got stopped by the MPs. "A person fitting your description committed an assault at (names family housing area several miles from the road I was on) and we're checking everyone who looks like you." The description was, white male between 5'8" and 5'10" wearing a green field jacket. I pointed out that description fit about 20 percent of the division..."yeah, I know but we gotta be thorough. What were you doing at such-and-such a time?" Watching a movie downtown. "Can you prove it?" Sure; I pulled out my ticket stub. They waved me through. Turns out they never caught the guy.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Of a non-descript "white male / white female" profiling attempt.
99Forever
(14,524 posts).. for driving while being white with long hair. Doesn't happen so much these days to me, but it does at least give some insight into the rotten way our black citizens are profiled and subjected to police abuse.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)White dude here (of course).
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)* insert Samson reference here *
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Hair either. I have been frisk and arrested by a too zealous cop myself, white female with business attire, stopped more. than once and not arrested, yes it happens.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)This just shows that the problem of police incompetence and corruption, truly can affect any one of us.....and I'd like to add that pointing out that race isn't the only factor in this whole problem, is not "denying personal experiences", of which I myself have been (falsely) accused RIGHT HERE on this very thread, nor is it ignoring race altogether, or even discarding the fact that, at least when social status is roughly equal, People of Color *DO* get pulled over and frisked, etc. more often than whites.
And if we continue to make the mistake of focusing too much on this ONE issue(or any single issue in particular, for that matter), then we ultimately gain nothing; look at how cops often treated Occupy protesters, many of whom happened to be "white".....even their skin color didn't save them in that situation.
I say all this out of genuine concern for the welfare of ALL of my fellow Americans.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Than bad, I do my best to comply because I know they can take action I may not like. I give respect and hope I get it back. You are right, we look past situations and of course is why not get the other guy and leave me alone. I know of the profiling, have seen it in action and I am not comfortable seeing it, I really don't have an answer on a fix. Maybe just maybe one of these days.
LiberalArkie
(15,728 posts)and handcuffed. My crime: my license plate came back as the same name of a 6ft 2" 300 pound black man who had robbed a liquor store in Pine Bluff, Araknsas. I was in downtown Little Rock. I am 5'11" at that time 145lb white guy of Scottish descent. Oh the black dude was in a red pickup truck. I was in a silver Audi. Thank God an older LRPD officer responded to the call for backup and let me go. I thought the first cop was going beat the crap out of me.
So you don't have to be non-white, you just have to be thought to be non-white... There is a reason the word "colored" was used in the south. African, Mexican, Asian, Jewish, Arabic, Chinese, Hawaiian all treaded the same. They all had to drink from the "colored" water fountain.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)That's all we needed to know. You were probably guilty of * something * I have had some friends who were Appalachian-American. It is too bad the racial divide in middle America prevents Scots-Irish from making common cause with the urban working class, as former Senator Jim Webb is always saying.
PS -- just kidding though, I hear you... the cop probably thought you were masquerading as a white person to avoid detection!
LiberalArkie
(15,728 posts)you just can't catch them. You can't stop them from the chase. The police officer ran my plates and they came back to the same name that a wanted person. And that was all he saw. Put that together with the amounts of testosterone they are shooting up and anything can happen.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)"Know them? I know these cops in my blood, man."
"Don't use that word... you'll get them excited." -- Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)... of a perpetrator of a crime. ( armed robbery)
Mid town Manhattan.
What's a grand jury-denier?
Shrike47
(6,913 posts)I'm not always a good driver but once they see who they caught, they let me go.
For which I'm grateful.
phil89
(1,043 posts)who committed crimes?
uppityperson
(115,678 posts)crime of pulling out to close in front of someone several blocks before I was pulled over. It was on main roads of my town, and he pulled in behind me, called "hey, can we talk" when I stopped at an art gallery.
He said I pulled out to close in front of someone, I apologized and when I asked if he'd clarify which streets as I don't know all the names he said "you live here, you HAVE to know the names" and then proceeded to continue harassing me for 10 min while I apologized repeatedly for pulling out to close in from of someone. And not knowing all the street names.
I didn't get smart, didn't ask if I was being detained, didn't turn to walk away, didn't ask if we were done, just kept repeating sorry sorry sorry over and over and over because it was obvious he was looking for a reason to taze me.
I didn't think of getting shot, just tazed. It was bizarre and really pissed me off, not just because this awful cop was having a bad day but because if he was doing this to me, how the fuck was he treating others.
When I told my young adult child, the response (beyond calling me on my privileged racist, sexist, agist being) was "now you see why we hate them".
It was eye opening.
Visiting with friends this week not in my Privileged Categories, looking at them and fearing for them.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Nice gold chain. Nice watch. Clean car. White male. Never get fucked with. Not even walking in metro area at 3 am in the morning. Just have to smile and be calm. Privilege.
The one time I had a cops gun in my face, I was 15 and hanging out with some morons and doing the wrong things at 3 am in the morning. I admit it.
Otherwise, not in 30 years.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)If they didn't "seem to belong there", i.e. in an upper-middle-class area?
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 1, 2014, 07:46 AM - Edit history (1)
Sometimes I get bored and just go on, especially a memorable story that is relevant to the topic. I may be saying something longer then it requires but there still many details and this would require more the more I give out. To get into all that typing and also don't want to leave up a partly finished story.
I'll add that I was a white male in my 20's wearing business casual and the terry pat down seemed iffy at best which isn't the same I could say about other personal police encounters.
Liberal Lolita
(82 posts)from the bus stop, because he was in "an area with a high rate of drug sales", (a predominately black neighborhood) while living in Chicago. He was in his early 20s, so I guess that means they thought he was there to buy drugs. The cop asked to search him, but my SIL suggested they walk a bit further so the cop could confirm his employment. The cop agreed, and let him go, after talking to my SIL's boss. He had to admit he was lucky, because he had weed on him, as usual.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)By Cassandra Rules on November 29, 2014
You were making people nervous they said you had your hands in your pockets.
Pontiac, MI Brandon B Waxx McKean was walking down the street Thursday when he was approached by a deputy for his suspicious behavior of walking down the street with his hands in his pockets.
You were walking by, the deputy states.
Walking by and doing what? McKean asked.
You were making people nervous, the deputy said.
By walking by?
Yeah, they said you had your hands in your pockets.
The officer then pulls out his IPhone and bizarrely begins filming McKean and acting as sweet and innocent as possible while asking what McKean is up to.
Is it an inconvenience to talk to me right now? the officer asks.
Hell yeah, just because of the whole police situation going across the country- this is outrageous that you would let somebody tell you oh theres somebody walking down the street with their hands in their pockets theres 10,000 people in Pontiac right now with their hands in their pockets!
Youre right, but we do have alot of robberies so Im just checking on you.
Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/man-stopped-snowy-weather-suspicious-act-walking-hands-pockets-black/#12yVHRQjou9ef1e2.99
TYY
Edit to add: I know you asked for white guys but that's a tall order. Meanwhile, this is just another example of what happens every day to people who get caught walking while being black.
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)was arrested for fitting the description of "middle-aged white man in a gray business suit."
He had just robbed a bank by threatening to detonate a bomb he had in his briefcase. No bomb, just some wires sticking out of the case.
They gave him a bag full of money and he was caught about a block away.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)If they get a call of someone matching a description that just committed crime such as robbery the Supreme Court allowed the police to do an outer pat down for the officer's safety. There is a lot of gray area when it comes to when they do it and what is allowed, I came across some info
A Justified Stop
A stop is justified if the suspect is exhibiting any combination of the following behaviors:
Appears not to fit the time or place.
Matches the description on a "Wanted" flyer.
Acts strangely, or is emotional, angry, fearful, or intoxicated.
Loitering, or looking for something.
Running away or engaging in furtive movements.
Present in a crime scene area.
Present in a high-crime area (not sufficient by itself or with loitering).
A frisk is justified under the following circumstances:
Concern for the safety of the officer or of others.
Suspicion the suspect is armed and dangerous.
Suspicion the suspect is about to commit a crime where a weapon is commonly used.
Officer is alone and backup has not arrived.
Number of suspects and their physical size.
Behavior, emotional state, and/or look of suspects. (which explains my fictional behavior description in the police report)
Suspect gave evasive answers during the initial stop.
Time of day and/or geographical surroundings (not sufficient by themselves to justify frisk).
I can't much here that can be used here to justify my stop. A ball-peen hammer found on 1 suspect on a call for 1 suspect was used to justify the "fear for safety" but there was a platoon of cops in the complex. I do think they honestly believed I was involved with whatever they accused me because I showed up at the suspect's residence but I walked nonchalently towards a group of officers, walked by them (which led to them following me which I wasn't aware of) to the door. If I had any idea what there accusations were about do you think I would towards the cops? So they can't say I was fleeing (though the wrote that I looked behind me and hurriedly knocked on the door as if I was desperate for someone to let me inside) I actually wasn't aware until the cops inquired about his presence literally right after I did so with the residents which confused me as I was trying to find out the same thing. And I have no idea where the crime scene was, police report said a house--I was in an apartment complex so can't use that one. It was also noon so time of day doesn't fit
I can see that there is enough to maybe justify it but if a ballpeen hammer was used to justify a "frisk" for someone knocking on the door.. what about the people that live there? But there is one lie he told that may would have helped is he put on the police report that he ordered me to hand him the joint or cigarette whichever he wrote on there which I don't think it is something they're necessarily allowed to do during a terry stop. What was actually said where two questions, one before the interrogation & another one after endless "we know you're involved" "involved with what?" which was "Is that a cigarette?" which led to my boneheaded move to break it open to show that there was tobacco inside and green stuff came out and I knew. Putting that on the police report I would think would help their chances in a trail over what he did put on there. Seems strange that they were using all kinds of tricks that I knew were tricks, bluffing doesn't work when the other person is telling the truth.
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)actually the guy that pulled the botched robbery.
He fit the description because the description was of him, right down to the briefcase with wires sticking out.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)though down to a "T" like that, I'd say reasonable suspicion is clear.
The most common example to explain a terry stop is something similar to calls get a call of a robbery with a suspect wearing a red shirt then they see someone wearing red shirt near the area of the robbery then the officer can do a "stop risk" based on the "reasonable suspicion" someone is "armed and dangerous". There is a lot of gray area to this and the word "reasonable" gives cops a vague OK to shoot someone based on "reasonable fear". When Arizona passed SB 1070 a lot of people countered the profiling argument with the they can only ask for proof of citizenship of they "reasonably suspect"? Well unless you saw someone hiking north from a border nearby how would you "reasonably suspect" someone is from somewhere else? Spanish (MLB players that need interpreters was highlighted as a potential issue where half the league plays spring ball in this state & brown skin likely would be factors.
Please don't take my responses as contrary, I'm just adding info on the Terry Pat Downs and a textbook example, which was down to the T in description, felt like a good opportunity.
ArnoldLayne
(2,068 posts)been stopped, questioned, I'D or anything in my whole life. Actually police usually just smile or nod their heads to say hello. Gee I wonder why?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Which the officers took to mean "in the neighborhood to buy drugs" rather than "in the neighborhood because he can't afford an apartment anywhere else". They checked my pocket and wallet to see if I had money on me, which I fortunately didn't -- I still wonder what would have happened if I had just come off a shift with $100 in my pocket.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Not with the full suit, or even middle aged, but I have definitely been detained for being white in a black neighborhood,
I was waiting with a friend who owed me sixty bucks. He was black. I said hello to a hooker (who was white).
Vice rolled up, accompanied by black & whites. Face down on the hood of the car. For an hour, fortunately before. Had to pick my kindergartener up from school.
"Why are you in this neighborhood? Why were you talking to a known prosititute? Which is it: hookers or drugs?"
"I don't know which is it is. You're the cops. Aren't you supposed to figure that shit out BEFORE you put me in cuffs? The lady is my downstairs neighbor. I'm in this neighborhood because that's my apartment, right fucking there, and I'm talking to the prostitute because she's my downstairs neighbor and I talk to her every day."
His was not racism against me, though. This was racism against the predominant blacks in the neighborhhod; he just assumed I didn't fit in with the 'criminal element.'