Reading between the lines, Zimmerman arrest may have been a trap, afterall.

[Baitball Blogger]

Just my take on the following:

George Zimmerman: Mark NeJame rips ‘unprepared’ state


“They have got a tenuous case that looks all the more tenuous,” Orlando attorney Mark NeJame said in his role as a CNN analyst.

snip

NeJame cited two key factors in lambasting the state: “They have now said under oath, under oath by their lead investigator, that they don’t know who started the fight. And they don’t know if he [Zimmerman] was going back to the car or not. Two essential elements to make a case and they … are locked in forevermore that they have no evidence to establish it. Amazing they were so unprepared.”

Attorney Diana Tennis, an analyst for WOFL-Channel 35, cited the biggest shock to her: “When the state of Florida says ‘I don’t have any witnesses, we’re only going on the probable cause affidavit,’ that is code for ‘judge, we don’t have the evidence we need, we know he’s going to get a bond.’ They should have just said that out loud.”

snip

Attorney Bill Sheaffer, returning as legal analyst for WFTV-Channel 9, sized up the defense’s approach. “The defense came out swinging, and we saw a harbinger of what we’re going to see at trial,” Sheaffer said. “That is raising reasonable doubt, poking holes in the state’s case. One of the key things that came out today was this: There is no evidence to refute Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor.”
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-20/news/os-george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-20120420_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-robert-zimmerman-son

[Baitball Blogger]

1. I think we've been had.

I think there's a danger in determining someone's credible worth based on the awards they get in this state. I think it's all part of the scam of pushing incompetent or compromised people into decision making positions.

If this really were a small town, we'd be marching with pitchforks.

[CatWoman]

10. no

I think "you" have been had.

[Baitball Blogger]

13. Catwoman, this is the furthest I've seen a case go in this county

when you're dealing with someone who is connected. I really thought that national attention would make a difference.

I'm sorry.

[CatWoman]

36. you know

I'm not as stupid as I look.

Contemplate that while you are hanging here nailed to the Tree of Woe.

[Baitball Blogger]

41. Now it's my turn.

What the fuck are you talking about?

[CatWoman]

69. LOL

Quote from Conan The Barbarian.

as stated by Thulsa Doom, after he crucified Conan on the Tree of Woe.

[Baitball Blogger]

71. To the hell fires with Thulsa Doom. nt.

[Ikonoklast]

34. There is a fountain of 'concern' spouting somewhere.

People are taking free buckets of it home with them.

[jpak]

100. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!1111

[sabrina 1]

65. They don't know who started the fight??? The guy who got out of his truck and harassed and followed

a perfectly innocent citizen walking home from the store. That's all they need to show who started the fight. It's not relevant after that, whether or not the victim chose to try to defend himself, which he did. But he failed, he died and none of this would have happened if Zimmerman had chosen not to start that fight.

[Baitball Blogger]

66. Sabrina,

This is exactly how the prosecutor framed the case when she made the arrest. I hope it resonates in the trial. It seems to be a point that is being overlooked as all the legal pundits keep referring to the moment that Trayvon may or may not have attempted a last ditch effort to defend himself.

[sabrina 1]

70. It's being over-looked on purpose, imo. But to the average person, it seems pretty obvious that if

you are walking along the street and suddenly find that a total stranger is following you, even after you try to get away from them, that you have told a friend you are worried, then are confronted directly by this stranger, you have a right to defend yourself, and most people will. The fact that he is dead proves that his fears were not unwarranted. He knew he was threatened.

I don't know if the people on TV you are talking about are all defense attorneys, but if so, they will be arguing from that position. And the MSM won't be in the jury box.

[Baitball Blogger]

72. Let's hope that the prosecutor is as convincing as you are.

[southernyankeebelle]

2. That man kept on going after the operator told him not to follow him. Even if this man gets off

I will always think like the Anthony case he got away with legal murder. Simple and plan. What about the girlfriends testimony? Surely that has some impact.

[Baitball Blogger]

14. It's up to the jury, I think.

They have to agree with you. With us.

[southernyankeebelle]

56. You would think they would. But I dunno in FL it seems justice only works for some people

[Baitball Blogger]

59. I heard that a grand jury investigation can indict a ham sandwich.

But in Seminole County they couldn't indict a good ole boy who shot his fiancee on manslaughter charges. So, something strange does go on around here.

[southernyankeebelle]

60. Well they didn't sent killer Anthony to jail. Talk about getting away with murder. I have a feelin

he is going to get off. This has been all show.

[hack89]

94. Trials are not to dispense justice - they are to apply the written law to the circumstances at hand

it was an eye opening experience when I served on a jury - we spend a lot of time in the jury room while the judge and lawyers discussed what evidence could and could not be presented to us. It was also hammered into us exactly what "beyond a reasonable doubt" meant.

This case is not a slam dunk.

[southernyankeebelle]

95. I wouldn't be on this jury. Where it got me is when the operator told him not to follow him and he

didn't listen. He was the aggressor. I don't see anything around it.

[hack89]

96. But you don't know everything that happened between then and the shooting.

following him was not illegal nor does it automatically mean that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Even if he approached Martin and challenged him, that does not automatically mean that Zimmerman was the aggressor - because doing so is not a crime. What happened next (which we don't know much about) is the key period that would determine whether Zimmerman was the aggressor or not. Because "aggressor" has a specific legal meaning that may be much more restrictive than the meaning you think it has.

I don't know how a jury will decide or how strong the state's case it. All I am saying is that trials are governed by very strict, black and white rules and definitions. Couple with that the high bar of "beyond a reasonable doubt" and this trial is not a slam dunk.

[southernyankeebelle]

97. The tape speaks for itself. All the other stuff to me is a distraction. Remember we are only

getting Zimmerman's song and dance. I don't care about the distraction he killed an unarmed person. That law must be revisited.

[hack89]

98. "All the other stuff" may be very important in a trial.

you don't know what other evidence is out there. You don't know exactly what the jury will and will not be allowed to see. You don't know what the judge will deem relevant or not.

I understand you have your opinion. I am merely pointing out that in the black and white world of the legal system, things may be seen completely differently. Thus my comment that trials don't dispense justice - they apply the law.

[southernyankeebelle]

99. Thank you for your wise thoughtful advice. I know what your saying. I know your right but I can't

just can't help the way I feel. The Zimmermans are playing to the media and the possible jury. That isn't right.

[TheWraith]

3. Don't bother listening to the "legal analysts."

First off, they have a vested interest in making everything seem as up in the air as humanly possible, to get more people to tune in and more airtime for themselves.

Secondly, like political pundits, they're usually working as legal analysts because they're no longer qualified, trusted, or competent to actually work in the field that they rant about, but that doesn't stop them from pretending to be smarter and more in the know than the people who've actually seen and handled the evidence every step of the way.

[Whisp]

8. +1

[leveymg]

11. Zimmerman's atty had this same TV analyst job. More of the same.

That doesn't mean they're necessarily incompetent, just that they likely share the same outlook about this case.

[Yo_Mama]

12. What you said

<i>First off, they have a vested interest in making everything seem as up in the air as humanly possible, to get more people to tune in and more airtime for themselves.</i>

Gosh, yes. They're looking for controversy.

[Baitball Blogger]

15. I hope you're right.

You realize Mark Nejame was the husband of the judge who recused herself?

[TheWraith]

27. Yes, I am. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. He Also Never Tried A Murder Case In His Life

.

[Baitball Blogger]

51. Then someone must be advising him of the correct process.

And by correct, I mean what is normal for a court proceeding outside of Florida.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. I'm A Bit Confused. NeJame Is A (Good) Orlando Attorney. He Just Never Tried A Capitol Case.

[Baitball Blogger]

62. I'm hanging my hat on what he has to say.

But, I think what he has to say is unnerving a lot of people.

[dpibel]

75. Can't realize what isn't correct

The judge’s husband, Jason Recksiedler, is a partner handling civil law matters for the firm of Mark NeJame, the CNN analyst. http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120417,0,6653759.story

Sorry for long link. Can't get it to embed properly.

[FSogol]

26. +1 n/t

[Enrique]

4. for me, the biggest matter was always the actions of the police

and then later when it became known, the actions of the states attorney.

What we will know about what actually happened with Zimmerman will always be very limited, but with the government response, there should be a ton of documentation, and lots of witnesses. And yet no one seems to be looking into that.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

6. Yes, why did the lead investiagtor --

get overruled -- that should be looked at, certainly.

[Baitball Blogger]

16. How do you go about putting the police department and state attorney's office on trial?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. Neither the Sanford PD nor the 1st State Attorney on this case are on trial here

There actions are being looked into in other investigations

[Enrique]

43. i'm glad to hear it

please provide a link to the good news that these necessary investigations are being done.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. Many citations in prior threads here on DU and elsewhere

State and Federal IIRC

[Hell Hath No Fury]

5. I've thought from the beginning --

that they know they do not have enough to make the case stick but brought it anyway because they had no real choice -- if they didn't, all hell would have broken loose.

I think they will try to make the case, they know 2nd degree will fail and he will either walk or plead to a manslaughter charge -- but they can then say, "We tried our best."

[Baitball Blogger]

18. Anything less than manslaughter is total failure.

This has to be judged based on the moment that Zimmerman decided to move forward.

[Solomon]

33. Aw this is such bullshit. The despicable double standard

just keeps flowing with no end. Now all of a sudden, circumstantial evidence doesn't apply?

Bullshit. People are convicted everyday all day by circumstantial evidence.

There's just no end to lengths people will stretch themselves to. I guess if the subjects were reversed, there'd be a chorus of people saying Trayvon couldn't be convicted of murdering Zimmerman because no witness actually saw the killing. Riiight!!!

[Baitball Blogger]

38. If the roles had been reversed,

Trayvon would have been in jail without bond.

[Solomon]

45. Thankyou. This case is just making me sick.

Witnesses on behalf of Trayvon are totally ignored as though what they have to say is not evidence while statements of non-witnesses, like Zimmerman's father, brother and friends, are constantly thrown up in support of Zimmerman.

I'm sick to death of the hypocrisy.

[Baitball Blogger]

49. If Zimmerman walks,

I see everyone turning their ire at the legal system. They should do it anyway, but people are following the process as it develops.

[noiretextatique]

50. yes, he would have

if he made it out of that situation alive. he might have been killed by the cops.

[Solomon]

67. You fucking know it!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

48. I used to work for a criminal defense attorney --

who specialized in DP and high profile cases.

The Prosecution has to bring a He Said/He's Dead case with no direct witnesses and forensics that MAY have been compromised.

That picture that came out today of Zimmerman's injuries?

That is going to go a whole long way to showing grounds for SYG self-defense on Zimmerman's part. A good defense attorney could have a FIELD day with the problems with this case. Throw in a a few jurors that may be bigoted and the chances this guy walks free are VERY good.

Is it right? Is it Justice? Hell no. But it is our justice system and country's reality.

[Baitball Blogger]

52. I think the Prosecutor is going to use the lack of injuries to support their case.

If this fall through, this will be the third big murder case in Central Florida that the Prosecutors lose. I think it would be a clear indication that we need to clear the decks and start all over. First with the police departments, followed by the State Attorney's Office.

[Recursion]

55. If I were on a jury I'd have trouble convicting on the case they have (nt)

[sabrina 1]

68. I disagree, I think the photo shows that Trayvon was trying to stand HIS ground since he was the

victim. All the prosecutor has to do is demonstrate how scared Trayvon was, how he died most likely believing he was being followed by a maniac. And that he tried but failed to defend himself. And the fact that he is dead, proves he was not wrong in his assessment of the threat he felt from Zimmerman.

[dkf]

83. They could have both been standing their ground and either could have used self defense.

[sabrina 1]

85. There was one aggressor, the other was a victim. The victim is the one who gets to

defend themselves. The victim did not put himself in that position. The aggressor made all the decisions that led to the victim having to defend himself.

The initiator of the encounter that led to the death of the victim is responsible for all that happened that night.

Eg, if a woman is walking along the street and someone starts following her, if she calls a friend to tell them she is scared, tells her friend she is trying to get away from this stranger, then drops the phone, and two minutes later she is dead, AFTER having tried to fend off this stranger, even wounding him slightly in her attempt to defend herself, who is responsible for that death and for the minor injuries to the shooter?

If later it is discovered that the person who shot her was following her because in his paranoid mind he thought 'she looked suspicious' that 'she was walking at night alone, wearing a sexy outfit' so he thought she might be a hooker, does that change anything regarding the events that led to her death or who was responsible for it?

Everything that happened that night was the fault of Zimmerman. Trayvon Martin felt threatened and apparently attempted to defend himself, but failed. The fact that he ended up dead proves he was justified in his fears.

[dkf]

86. That isn't the way the law works.

If you think Martin threw the first punch you've pretty much established Zimmerman's defense.

[sabrina 1]

88. I don't think Martin threw the first punch, I think Zimmerman did, based on his

girlfriend's account of their phone call. And since no one will ever know for sure, her testimony is the closest they have to an eye-witness account. Seems to me from her testimony that Martin's headphones were knocked from his head as he spoke to her.

As for how the law works, if someone accosts you, you have a right to protect yourself.

[amandabeech]

89. I hate to say it, but you may be right.

In Florida, there is a hearing before the judge to rule on the validity of Z's self-defense claim. Z must win that by the preponderance of the evidence. That's right, preponderance of the evidence. The prosecution may appeal, but if Z wins, then the case is thrown out before trial and Z gets complete immunity.

Not posted here is a Wed. article from Reuters that claims that Z's two former attorneys said that Z visited a doctor the next day and was scene around the complex with two butterfly bandages on the back of his head and a swollen nose with a bandage on it.

The prosecution now says that the medical examiner's report shows that the gun was fired very, very close to Trayvon Martin, and that the prosecution doesn't have verification of the voice heard screaming for help on the 911 tape.

This does not look good for the prosecution.

Personally, I think that Z is an easily frightened, trigger-happy wanna be who pulled out that gun before it was justified, but my thoughts don't count.

It's what the prosecutor can and cannot put out there, and at this point, the prosecutor can't put out much.

[Pathwalker]

7.

[CatWoman]

9. actually

I'm just trying to figure out what the fuck you're talking about.

Don't go all bigapple on me, ok?

[Baitball Blogger]

17. I was thinking of the Casey Anthony case when I read this:

"Attorney Bill Sheaffer, returning as legal analyst for WFTV-Channel 9, sized up the defense’s approach. “The defense came out swinging, and we saw a harbinger of what we’re going to see at trial,” Sheaffer said. “That is raising reasonable doubt, poking holes in the state’s case. One of the key things that came out today was this: There is no evidence to refute Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor.” "

I was also thinking of the man who didn't even get manslaughter when he shot his fiancee who came home late the night before the wedding.

We just don't have the best track record when it comes to a competent legal system.

They have said that Orlando is a small town in a big city. I see the pattern in these big cases turning into something very dangerous as a small core group of people attempt to continue to game the system to protect their way of life, while the rest of us see our livelihood and expectation of justice disappear.

[EFerrari]

30. LOL

[frylock]

53. bigasshole

[Life Long Dem]

19. I don't know how this can be said when

the defense doesn't know all the state witnesses. The prosecutor said just that to O'mara. At least that's what I thought I heard said.

[Baitball Blogger]

20. Doesn't a D.A. get to see all the evidence before a case goes to trial?

[Life Long Dem]

21. Yeah, but we are not at trial yet.

I thought I heard the state say they have new witnesses the defense don't know about right now.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. Discovery starts early

[Life Long Dem]

25. And can run up to the trial

[Yo_Mama]

42. FL is a full discovery state

So the defense will get all the info the prosecution has well before trial. But this is in the early stages. The defense lawyer will serve a Notice of Discovery on the prosecutor, which then triggers discovery from both parties (defense gives up everything they have, prosecution gives up everything they have). Prosecution has 15 days to comply. The rules start on page 112:
http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBResources.nsf/0/BDFE1551AD291A3F85256B29004BF892/$FILE/Criminal.pdf?OpenElement

The prosecution could have a lot of evidence to disprove parts of Zimmerman's story.

[Baitball Blogger]

44. From what you have read, do you think that the Prosecutor is holding back anything important?

[Life Long Dem]

54. Their not going to hold back on handing over the evidence they have.

Last edited Fri Apr 20, 2012, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)

But I think I heard said by the prosecution during the bond hearing that they have witnesses the defense doesn't know of yet (someone might check on this).

[dkf]

84. Wouldn't the lead investigator know who the witnesses are?

[Yo_Mama]

77. They can't hold back on anything once it gets further along

But what they have will come out in court proceedings. The defense will get it, but the public won't hear about it.

No point in speculating on this, we'll all find out during the trial if we are interested.

[Baitball Blogger]

78. Here goes nothing, then.

Thanks for the information.

[Politicalboi]

23. WTF?

"There is no evidence to refute Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor.”

Have they heard the 911 tapes?

[Baitball Blogger]

29. You know, I've never seen a transcript of what Trayvon told the 911

operator.

Depending on the timing of the call, that could be proof. Why didn't the Prosecutor mention it.

[Yo_Mama]

32. There wasn't one.

Martin was talking to his girlfriend on the phone at the time. He never called 911. The media report on that was mistaken and pulled about an hour after first reported.

[Baitball Blogger]

35. Thanks for the info.

Cleared that one up.

[Politicalboi]

37. I read that wrong

Sorry. My "misteak".

[Baitball Blogger]

39. Series1! you moran.

[Politicalboi]

40. LOL!

[cali]

28. The prosecutor was damned if she did and damned if she didn't

I think it's assuming way too much to state that we've been had.

[Baitball Blogger]

31. It would be good to win one for a change.

It would make me less apprehensive.

[Zax2me]

57. Zimmerman chased him down then....

What?
Did Trayvon over-react himself for being 'disrespected', get him on the ground, beat his head upon the concrete then Zimmerman pulls a gun and shoots him?
Yea.
This could have been the case.
Easily as likely as the theory that Zimmerman chased him down only because he was black and he wanted to kill him because he was black.
The fact is if Zimmerman had reported him to police then went the fuck home we would have never heard of either of them.
Not saying Zimmerman deserves to have book thrown at him and he is 100% guilty - there is not enough public evidence to come to a conclusion either way.
Just saying.
He appeared to be overzealous and we could have all been spared this grief, and Trayvon his life.

[Baitball Blogger]

58. Unless the prosecutor has a card up her sleeve,

this is going to come down to the Voir Dire. A group of his peers inside of Sanford, might provide a result that no one will be happy with, unless the Prosecutor does an extremely good job of pressing the evidence that we find irrefutable.

[amandabeech]

90. O'Mara has already mentioned a possible change of venue motion, I think.

They may have to go to the western or northeren portions of the state to find jurors who aren't at least somewhat obsessed by this case.

[Baitball Blogger]

91. They should probably avoid Jacksonville, completely.

[amandabeech]

93. Probably. n/t

[okieinpain]

63. i figure trayvon family is going to have get justice

in civil court.

[Baitball Blogger]

64. I read somewhere that they can't file in civil court if Zimmerman walks from a Criminal trial.

Can anyone confirm that?

[sabrina 1]

73. Don't think that's true. OJ's victims did file a civil suit and won even after he was found

not guilty. Wrongful death is still wrongful death and Zimmerman, even if found not guilty of murder, still caused that death. Most civil suits for wrongful deaths are not based on murder convictions, many times they are based on accidental deaths.

[Baitball Blogger]

74. Let's hope this is a Federal law.

The Florida State Legislature has been interfering where it can to make it harder for ordinary people to use the courts for legal remedies.

And, yes, I believe they crossed into unconstitutional territory.

[sabrina 1]

79. I don't know if it is a Federal Law, and it's not surprising to hear that Florida's Legislature

try to limit the rights of people seeking justice civilly, or criminally for that matter. But if they do so in this case, it will get international attention. They might want to think about the consequences before depriving the victims of any rights they may have.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

80. Martin's Family Can't File A Civil Suit If The Case Is Dismissed At The SVG Hearing

If the case goes to court and he's acquitted or even found guilty Martin's parents can seek civil remedies.


Don't forget Man 1 and Man 2 are lesser included offenses and the jury can come up with a compromise verdict. The jury can also hang. In which case they can try him again.

Lots of variables.

[Baitball Blogger]

87. Thank you so much.

Very helpful info.

[kudzu22]

76. I've heard the same

In Florida if you have a successful self-defense claim you're immune from wrongful death suits for the same act. Stand-your-ground law y'know.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

82. See 63

There will be a SVG hearing before the trial . If the case survives the hearing that means probable cause exists.

[LiberalFighter]

81. CNN?

What are the odds that they hired an analyst to report their way?

[mzmolly]

92. From what I gather, it doesn't matter of Trayvon was the aggressor.

All that matters is if George Zimmerman thought he would die or suffer great bodily harm before killing Trayvon Martin. You can't kill in cold blood, so you don't get an ass kicking.