A pornographer (and atheist) explains why the science guy’s shirt crash-landed

[demmiblue]

Source: Raw Story

So, I’m a pornographer. I have written pornography, produced it, published it, edited it, sold it, bought it, reviewed it, modeled for it, narrated it, read it publicly, and performed in it. I have written, produced. published, edited, sold, bought, reviewed, modeled for, narrated, read, and performed in pornographic fiction, video, photography, comics, and probably other media I can’t remember now. (I’ve even written about erotic cave paintings. No, really.) I was a sex writer for decades before I was an atheist writer: in fact, my first several pieces of professionally published writing were for On Our Backs, the by-lesbians-for-lesbians sex magazine. I started working in pornography in 1989, and I’ve been doing it in some capacity, more or less constantly, ever since.

<snip>

The particular incident that sparked this piece was the “sexy pinup girl” shirt that Rosetta Project scientist Matt Taylor wore while talking to reporters about the Philae comet landing. As a feminist — and as a pornographer — I think this was sexist, demeaning, and wildly inappropriate. There are appropriate places and times to wear clothing with sexual imagery on it — sex parties, erotica readings, erotic art openings, I can probably think of a few others. But the very public announcement of a major event in the history of scientific discovery — landing a robot on a comet! — is not one of those places or times.

Women in our culture, in case you haven’t noticed, are routinely reduced to purely sexual beings. We are routinely treated as if our brains, our talent, our imagination, our inspiration, are useless and trivial unless they’re applied to sex and sexual attractiveness. And the sexist treatment of women in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) is legendary, and very thoroughly documented.

So doing an interview about your team’s big science achievement while wearing a shirt with scantily-clad pinup girls does not say, “Sex is awesome!” It says, “Women are for sex.” It says, “Every woman working on this project, every woman working on a similar project, every woman working in STEM, every woman aspiring to work in STEM — this is what I think of you. Every girl dreaming of working in STEM someday — this is what I’ll think of you when you’re grown up. Tits and ass. That’s what you are to me.” And every one of Taylor’s colleagues and bosses, every person on the TV crew, who saw that shirt and didn’t say, “Dude, not cool” — every one of them said to all those women and girls, “Yeah, this is the norm in this field. If you decide to work here, this is what you’ll be running into — day after day after day after day after day. Get used to it, or get the hell out.” (Matt Taylor has since apologized for the shirt: however, there are still hordes of people who think the shirt was completely appropriate, as evidenced by the comments on the news story.)

<snip>

And I am not a sexual prude because I bloody well want sexual imagery to be enjoyed consensually, in times and places that are appropriate, in times and places that don’t tell women, “Your intelligence, your insight, your hard work, your accomplishments — none of that will ever matter as much as your tits and ass.”

Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/a-pornographer-and-atheist-explains-why-the-science-guys-shirt-crash-landed/

[uppityperson]

1. Huge k&r for explaining it using small words.

[Tsiyu]

2. Beautiful

K&R

[tammywammy]

3. I don't understand how his management allowed him to wear it.

I work in a heavily male industry and none of the men I work with would dare wear something like that to work. If someone showed up in that I'd expect them to be escorted out quickly and a conversation with HR to come the next day.

How the fuck did anyone over look THAT shirt and then let him get on camera and be interviewed for a historic event?

[mythology]

110. A good question

To me it's bad enough that he thought that shirt would be okay, especially on a day when there was going to be news cameras and so forth, but that nobody in management thought to say "this is a really stupid and inappropriate thing to wear".

[LongTomH]

147. Agreed! That shirt would be considered 'sexual harassment' at any workplace in this country!

I would think Europe would be even less tolerant of such sexism1

[joeybee12]

4. I bet he's worn it to work before...and I wonder how

anyone could get away with wearing this kind of shirt to work...anywhere.

[F4lconF16]

5. K&R

"So doing an interview about your team’s big science achievement while wearing a shirt with scantily-clad pinup girls does not say, 'Sex is awesome!' It says, 'Women are for sex.' It says, 'Every woman working on this project, every woman working on a similar project, every woman working in STEM, every woman aspiring to work in STEM — this is what I think of you. Every girl dreaming of working in STEM someday — this is what I’ll think of you when you’re grown up. Tits and ass. That’s what you are to me.'"

This is exactly it. An excellent explanation.

[elehhhhna]

8. it also says hes a fooking idiot

[REP]

6. She's right and at the same time

I'm somewhat bothered that she feels the need to give her rational, nuanced explanation only after prefacing her statement with her résumé in porn. I'm not faulting her; it's as though any woman who has opinion about things like shirts with degrading images on them worn in a professional workplace have to prove first that they're not prudes, love sex and express at least neutrality towards pornography before their opinion can be considered.

[Luminous Animal]

10. To mitigate the "prude" accusation. We've all seen it, even on DU.

[REP]

12. That's what I mean - why should she or any woman have to do that?

I actually do know why - women are either frigid bitches or man-hungry sluts, depending upon ... being alive and breathing, I guess.

[Warpy]

33. Because we know it's always coming, that's why

and always sooner rather than later when we point out some bozo is being sexually inappropriate in any way, like wearing a soft core porn shirt on camera when governments are trying to attract girls into STEM careers.

It was sexist, demeaning, and totally tone deaf.

He'd do well to go home and burn that sucker.

[liberalhistorian]

73. Indeed. 90% of the time

when women complain about such things, we're told something along the lines of "you just need a really good lay to loosen up", or "you just need a good lay to show you how it's REALLY done", or the like. Lather, rinse, repeat. Bleh.

And yet heaven help us if we admit to actually liking sex. Then we're dirty sluts. We just can't win.

[joshcryer]

82. Far as I can tell she's no more a "pornographer" than E. L. James.

Or me, under an anonymous pseudonym, for that matter.

[joshcryer]

233. Soft core, maybe.

There's a long tradition of erotica which is themed toward women, but generally the stuff that got banned was high literature like Ulysses. Maybe Lady Chatterley's Lover would qualify as the Harlequin type of book but if I recall correctly it had a much higher message than some sexual fulfillment.

But, yeah, write some sexy fanfic, you're a pornographer and can make absolutist statements about anything relating to visual stimuli!

[JI7]

11. we see it on here all the time, she has probably posted her opinion on various forums

at times and got the whole prude and other responses .

but i agree that women shouldn't have to justify their opinions in this way.

[demmiblue]

14. This was originally posted on her personal blog...

so I don't think she was writing for a larger audience (beyond her usual visitors).

I do agree with the point you are making, though.

[genwah]

26. No, I get it. Sometimes we have to provide our 'bone fides' to be heard. As a

former sex worker, and advocate for sex workers, it's often important to present ones qualifications before presenting one's arguments.

[blueboy2727]

7. Yeah, no it doesn't

It says, “Every woman working on this project, every woman working on a similar project, every woman working in STEM, every woman aspiring to work in STEM — this is what I think of you. Every girl dreaming of working in STEM someday — this is what I’ll think of you when you’re grown up. Tits and ass. That’s what you are to me.”

So she's clairvoyant, apparently? She knows what he means, what statements he's making with his own choice of clothing? Because she's a "pornographer?" Yeah, no she doesn't. Being a pornographer really has nothing to do with anything. It doesn't give her the power to know how specific things affect every female on the planet, doesn't give her the authority to make theoretical "rulings" on the subject, and it certainly doesn't give her mystical t-shirt interpretation powers.

Bottom line. If you're made to think that science isn't for you because you saw a guy wearing a particular shirt on TV during an interview, then you're right. Science isn't for you.

[elehhhhna]

9. wow the point is lost on you

Ask women what they think because you're clueless.

[wryter2000]

18. Intentionally missed

I expect we'll see worse.

[blueboy2727]

24. "ask women"

Since I know "women" aren't a monolithic entity, as you seem to suggest, I have asked some. Most thought he looked like an idiot, as I do, but they weren't offended as women by the shirt he was wearing. Your opinion is not reflective of women in general, and from what I can tell, is nowhere near a majority opinion.

[elehhhhna]

43. well guessthefuck what?

You are not a lady OR a woman. I'll hazard a guess - you've never been objectified, right? A shirt with photo quality retroish pics of dogs or sailboats wouldn't be a big deal. Tacky, sure. The bulging tit ladies are squicky. Unless you're a creep.

[bettyellen]

232. guessthefuck is my new favorite magic word! because you made that sucker disappear!

[Luminous Animal]

90. There is a reason why court after court after court ruled that "pin up girls" created

a hostile work environment and ordered them to be taken down. The man was wearing "pin up girls."

[seabeyond]

92. Exactly. This is not new ground. The new ground is wanting their mad men environment

Back that we fought against

[Luminous Animal]

96. Hey guys. We do not want to be visually assaulted with characterizations of ourselves

as T&A.

I wonder who would have supported the man's shirt if it were covered with black men with bug eyes and big red lips.

[Chemisse]

102. A woman does not have to be personally offended by this to make it offensive.

It is culturally offensive.

Its affect on individual women is likely either minimal or subconscious. Its affect on women in general is tiny, but it is one drop in a huge, overflowing bucket that tells girls and women that they are only of value because of their sexuality.

To have so much as one drop of this message coming from a scientist on an important occasion is culturally offensive.

[liberalhistorian]

74. Something tells me he doesn't

give a damn, or would dismiss our concerns, like most men commenting elsewhere are already doing.

You should see the Facebook comments on the Raw Story site when they posted this. Almost every single man said a variation of what this poster we're replying to said, and many of them were a helluva lot nastier and more vulgar. "Fucking frigid feminazi bitches who never let us have any fun with them" was one of the better ones, sadly enough.

[elehhhhna]

105. wow entitlement up in that quote

[blackspade]

13. Way to miss the point.

And it doesn't matter what he 'means' but how it is perceived.
I for one looked at it and my first reaction was, "dumbass."
Because you have to be completely clueless not to realize that pinup art is not remotely appropriate for a science press conference.

So bottom line, if you don't get why this is offensive on a progressive forum, perhaps progressive forums aren't for you.
Enjoy your stay.....

[blueboy2727]

25. I also thought he looked like an idiot.

I wasn't defending the appropriateness of his shirt. I was disputing whether or not it sends a message that women are unwelcome in science. Way to miss the point.

[elehhhhna]

44. newsflash - people who become scientists decide to do so in highschool.

If the men


Fukit I give up. You don't want to get it.

[bettyellen]

60. bullshit, it sends a sexist message to the women and men in his workplace-and so-is inappropriate.

[bettyellen]

212. and there ia not one monolithic enemy. workplaces have standards- and they change, whether you like

it or not. All sorts of screwed up harassment used to be "okay" in offices not too long ago, and are now illegal. They still happen, but less so. Leaving it to individuals to speak out is bullshit. That is really up to his supervisors.

[bettyellen]

215. Nope. you have no idea how the women who work there feel, none made comments-

and that is appropriate. The "offence industry" my ass, workplace protections help destroy the good old boy network that unfairly elevates men, and they are here to stay.

[Ravenna44]

15. Yes, right!

Yes! And next time he should choose the shirt with the black men in loincloths, with big lips, eating watermelon. Because gosh we can't possibly read the shirt's mind and interpret the shirt's message! It's just an innocent piece of fabric with pretty colors, it's not like anyone designed it or bought it to display a particular message!

[wryter2000]

21. Most awesome first post evah

Welcome to DU...

[blueboy2727]

28. please don't trivialize the civil rights movement with your ridiculous comparison

He wasn't trying to "send a message" to anyone, according to him. He's just an odd person with odd taste. Just because you interpret something a certain way doesn't mean it was intended to be so. I can find someone, somewhere who is offended by anything and everything. Doesn't mean we should discontinue existence.

[Scootaloo]

32. I'm an odd person, with odd tastes

However, there's a time and a place for things.

Speaking to the press after landing your probe on a comet... is not an occasion for the pinup lady hawaiian print shirt.

He's apologized, and stated it was never his intent to hurt anyone. I for one believe him. I don't think he was trying to "send a message." i think it was just thoughtless and completely tacky. And it's that thoughtlessness that causes problems.

[blueboy2727]

34. I agree that's it's tacky

But I also think it's ironic that the shirt was designed by a female friend of his and given to him for good luck. She has confirmed that on twitter, and has expressed frustration over the offense taken.

Oftentimes, the internet can make something seem as if it's a widely held opinion or belief, just because a few people loudly complain. The media runs with the story because it's sensationalistic, and level-headed people who disagree largely remain silent, because they think it's a silly argument not worth spending time on. The loudest disagreement comes from partisan warmongers who see it as another way to rebuke the other side of the aisle.

[riderinthestorm]

55. The shirt is a piece of art. A one of a kind item.

I also think its tacky and not appropriate in a work environment but clearly the female artist and this guy have different workplace dress codes than normal.

I also agree there was zero intention to give offense. He's stated he wore it to honor his artist friend specifically.

[mythology]

114. Then he and the artist are both dumbasses

I would argue that it doesn't really matter if he had no intention of giving offense. Sort of like how it doesn't matter if I shoot a gun out a window, not intending to hurt anybody, but if the bullet kills somebody, I'm still going to jail.

I think most reasonable people would look at that shirt and say "no this really isn't work appropriate" and so saying he didn't intend harm, isn't good enough to alone absolve him of any need for reprimand.

[Warren DeMontague]

229. Right! Wearing an ugly shirt, shooting people

totally the same thing.

"most reasonable people"- it's not a Penthouse spread... no one is naked on the shirt, you have to pore over it to even see the outfits on the cartoon women... this is totally overblown idiocy.

[Ravenna44]

61. Respectfully disagree

It sounds like you are saying that what blacks fight for is serious, but what women fight for is trivial. To you the sexygirl t-shirt thing is trivial, and the offense taken by women in response to it is trivial. And, er, that's... kinda the problem.

Having said that, I agree that the guy almost certainly didn't intend any harm, just as you probably don't intend any harm by implying that women's desire for respect is trivial; and just as all kinds of people who do all kinds of crappy stuff (trivial and otherwise) don't intend any harm. But if no one speaks up and says "Hey, that shirt? To a lotta women, that's pretty offensive; I know you don't get it but just listen and let us tell you why" - then the ignorant remain ignorant and the world is not likely to get better. And while I think you, dear commenter, are not going to change your mind even a little bit, maybe someone else reading these posts will. Attitudes change slowly, but over time they do change. There are plenty of people who - once they understand another person's perspective - want to respond with decency.

Best wishes.

[liberalhistorian]

75. And there you have it, folks.

Racism is important but sexism isn't. Because it's just us pesky, uppity women. Maybe we should all just go into the DU kitchen and fix him a sammich.

[wryter2000]

171. Women's equality is trivial

Thanks for putting me in my place.

[elehhhhna]

46. now THAT is a freaking Grand Entrance.

Welcome to du!

[wryter2000]

20. And I suppose you'be completely comfortable looking

at huge erection shirts on your colleagues.

(Why do I even try?)

[blueboy2727]

30. Life will not bend itself to accomodate your personal comfort

No matter how much you complain.

I would still think he looks like an idiot, as I do now, but it's another lopsided comparison. Pinups =/= dick shirts, and his choice of attire is not a political statement.

[seabeyond]

58. Damn well does in a work environment. Check out EEOC laws.

[Warren DeMontague]

237. in Europe?

[liberalhistorian]

76. Thank you so much for clarifying how us

women should and must feel about this. I was just waiting for the men to come along and help us out by telling us what we need to think and how to feel about it. I feel a LOT better now!

in case it's needed, 'cause you never know around here anymore.

[nomorenomore08]

169. STEM fields are known for not only lack of women, but poor treatment of the women within them.

So publicly wearing a shirt like that, in front of TV cameras and everything, could be considered adding insult to injury.

Sure, it's "just a shirt." But it doesn't exist in a vacuum.

[wryter2000]

16. Awesome

She captured the message that shirt sends perfectly.

[ozone_man]

17. Totally inapropriate.

Great assessment! I'm sure this guy will have learned his lesson after this. One would hope.

[Boom Sound 416]

19. About the TV crew saying, 'dude not cool'

If you ever want to work again for that client you will NEVER say, dude not cool.


Let the producers and his bosses make that call. Not the 'enlisted'

Thank you.


"Narrated it"

[AngryAmish]

22. It makes me so happy that this manchild is being destroyed for wearing a dirty shirt..

No, dirty images destroy everyone.

[genwah]

27. Ummm...no, never mind....

[Ravenna44]

68. Not sure if you were being sarcastic...

... But I am really sorry to hear he broke down in tears, and I pretty much wanna give him a hug.

I am one of those who agrees the shirt is offensive - but it kinda depends on the attitude of the guy wearing it, ya know? Looking on from afar, I definitely assume any man in such a shirt is a pig - same goes, of course, for men with naked-lady silhouettes on their mudflaps etc. But if he's just a goofy guy who thought it was a cute shirt, and if he really has no porcine ideas about women... Well then, awww, can we give the guy a break and just congratulate him on his comet-thing already?

[riderinthestorm]

69. Generally these days, DU is bad on nuance

Welcome anyway!

[nomorenomore08]

170. +2

This is probably one of the best posts I've seen on the subject.

[renate]

176. welcome to DU!

I can't wait to read more of your posts... I've loved everything you said on this thread, but I'm commenting here because, even though you feel the shirt is offensive (like I do), you want to give him a hug (like I do) because I don't think he had the least intention of being offensive. He just didn't think it through... a mistake we all make sometimes, but he did it on the world stage, and I feel bad for him.

Anyway, welcome!

[Ravenna44]

198. Yes! Thanks!

I feel like I have found a home <3

[True Blue Door]

23. It is inappropriate, but the author's schtick is overwrought.

Women are not emotionally delicate smoke rings whose deepest passions and interests can be thwarted by the trivial insensitivities of men. Acting like they are seems like "fauxminism."

I also disagree with the interpretation of the shirt. Here's the mutually ignorant "dialogue" taking place:

Shirt: "I like women's bodies. I enjoy looking at them, and being associated with them. Particularly bodies that look like this."

Reaction to shirt: "You despise women's minds! You don't care about their minds!"

The shirt and the reaction to the shirt have almost nothing to do with each other. We can agree it was inappropriate in context, but I do not agree there's anything fundamentally wrong with it.

Images of scantily-clad women are no more a deprecation of women's minds than fully-clothed women are a deprecation of women's bodies. It's not even the same subject.

You don't know whether the cartoon ladies on the shirt are strippers or just sexually adventurous doctoral candidates. And it doesn't matter because the subject of the shirt is bodies, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that subject - it just doesn't belong in a professional context, unless the profession is art or modeling or some other relevant field.

[Ravenna44]

29. Interesting point

I want to answer this because I kinda hear where you are coming from, though my POV differs. It seems to me you are missing the piece called *context*... Specifically, the context that most girls and women do deal with crap (sexual objectification, diminished respect, outright contempt, etc) on a daily basis, from men, merely because they are women. This means that in the Real Actual World the shirt is not just a celebration of sexy naked females but a continuation of a specific message that males bleat at females (and frequently beat into females) all over the world.

In a post above, I mentioned that the guy should perhaps have chosen a shirt depicting black men in loincloths with big lips, eating watermelon. You would be right in saying that there is nothing inherently offensive in those images either. Some black guys have worn loincloths in hot climates; some have thick lips; some like watermelon; so hey, lighten up! what's the problem?

The problem is context. And If you give it two minutes' thought and try to see té other guy's viewpoint, you will probably get it.

Like the author, I will now give my bona fides. I am a high-earning professional with a graduate degree. ( I feel impelled to say this to keep you from dismissing me as a "whiny victim.". ). Yet along the way I have been insulted and assaulted, called "cunt" and "feminazi", threatened with rape by strangers, ex-boyfriends, and guys I turned down; had my breasts grabbed repeatedly on the streets of Europe, actually had my hands pinned by a male colleague while other male colleagues looked on laughing, etc. I don't report this because I want your pity; I am just giving a catalogue of everyday life for a perfectly average woman in the sciences. No it hasn't made me curl up in a ball and give up my dreams - but it has been unjust and offensive and at times criminal and physically dangerous.

For that reason, the shirt is not just "sexy ladies on a shirt" any more than a burning cross in a Georgia yard is just "a pretty bonfire."

I do hope this gives you insight into another perspective (one that, I suspect, many of the disgusted commenters share.).

Best wishes.

[Tsiyu]

35. Excellent post

and welcome to DU.

I have a niece with a PhD in engineering. Not an easy path, by any means.

On the beach, the shirt is fine, no problema.

At a news conference about an important event?

Big problem.

[hlthe2b]

145. Here, you do seem to get it...

In your post downstream, not so much...

[Tsiyu]

150. Explain what I should be getting

I will explain my personal feelings about said shirt:

I hesitate to criticize the man's clothing, for fear of hordes of psycho men calling for my head on a pike, but in the interest of better understanding, I will load all the weapons and proceed.

We do tend to judge people based on what they wear.

I know the Mennonites aren't gonna want to bum a smoke in public. I know the old lady in the housecoat dependent on a walker at the corner market probably isn't the one setting fire to the woods and leaving broken beer bottles everywhere out there. I know the guy in a business suit with the tidy nails doesn't do hands-on work on cars or machinery for a living.

If I encounter a guy in a professional setting, outside of a business at the beach or a bar, wearing the Shirt in Question, I am creeped out. My thinking: This is probably a guy who is inappropriate in a lot of ways. One of those touchy-feely gropey rapey guys that make my skin crawl.

Or he's one of those letches who licks his lips a lot and makes really provocative comments at awkward times.

Maybe he's not like that at all. Great. I'm just telling you what I'm thinking given where we are today, in 2015, and given what I've experienced.

Having said that, I would not have even noticed Dude's choice of daywear had a bunch of guys not gone apeshit because another woman did notice it and did say something.

The crimes committed are those ugly things said by those who stalked this woman.

You cry "freedom!" for someone who exercised his and escaped without being told he should die, and ignore someone being trampled and told she'd be better off dead for exercising hers.

It's not logical but I'd love to hear how you work it out to be so.

[hlthe2b]

152. You must be confusing me with another poster... I agree with everything you wrote except the final

lines you erroneously attributed to me?! Who the hell said any of that? It surely wasn't me.

[Tsiyu]

154. I need a flow chart and I love you

It's time to go rake leaves. Cleared the dashboard, all deadlines met, now I gotta go outside.

I'd far rather put it off and stay here and argue. Far less energy involved

Sorry I got confused. I think I was trying to respond to someone else.

[hlthe2b]

155. LOL.. no problem...

I usually avoid these heated, complicated, enormous threads, since I have trouble keeping track too.

[Tsiyu]

156. Who sez being human isn't immense fun?

yeah, yeah, the leaves.....

[True Blue Door]

38. You're conflating far too many unrelated or nebulously-related concepts.

Germany: Pervasive sexualization of the female form; led by a woman whose body is no one's fantasy. Strong feminist representation in politics.
Egypt: Women are forced to wear bulky clothing to hide their form, their bodies treated like crimes, and are frequently assaulted or raped if they deviate from these norms.

Clearly sexualizationhas no relationship whatsoever with misogyny. This is why I call this kind of reaction "fauxminism." It prefers to focus on symbolism and get inside people's minds instead of focusing on real-world, practical equality.

What does this imagery have to do with your being called names and assaulted? Nothing. It has nothing to do with women not getting equal pay; nothing to do with sexual harassment or assault; nothing to do with reproductive freedom; nothing to do even with the dismissive attitudes of sexist men; it's simply men liking the female form and expressing their pleasure in it.

Any public display of pleasure can cause displeasure in others. The smell of the food you order in a restaurant might make me nauseous - that doesn't make you a repulsive and insensitive human being. When you have fun with your children in a park might disturb someone reading a book on a nearby bench, but that doesn't make your family life anti-intellectual.

Equating that shirt to a racist caricature would be like comparing the happy family making noise in a park near a reader to someone deliberately walking up to the reader and banging cymbals next to their head. The displeasure in one is incidental; the displeasure in the other is the purpose of the exercise.

The rare real-life troll notwithstanding, if a man wears a shirt with naked women on it, it's because he likes naked women, that's it. So only in contexts where the reaction of others has to trump individual autonomy - e.g., a professional circumstance - is it inappropriate. Otherwise it is as morally neutral as someone else's choice to eat pungent cheese.

[Tsiyu]

42. So should teachers be allowed to wear such designs in class?

Or students?

How appropriate is the shirt? On the one hand, just benign appreciation for the female form.

On the other hand, it might tend to make some women and even some men uncomfortable.

If you go with it, say fuck all to anyone's sensibility, that surely is your right.

And it is also my right and anyone else's right to publicly call dude a TOOL.

You want complete freedom, but complain when others exercise the freedom to criticize.

Interesting.

[True Blue Door]

57. I said it's inappropriate in a professional context.

Read more carefully before responding.

Moreover, I didn't argue against the right to criticize the shirt, just the rational basis of the criticism - again, apart from the professional context in which it was worn.

[Warren DeMontague]

81. As long as we're on the slippery slope, what about the guy's tattoos?

What if he has a scantily clad woman on a tattoo on his arm? Is he obligated to "cover up"? What if it's on a part of his body that is not comfortable to cover up, under television lights or while working?

He didn't force anyone else to wear the shirt. It was on him. His body. At what point does this become controlling what someone chooses to do with their own body?

[Ravenna44]

93. Of course he can wear the shirt!

The law lets him wear any shirt he wants, except maybe for one that says "I am currently smuggling explosives in my carry-on bag.". No one is "making" him strip off his shirt; no one could "make" him cover up a tattoo. However no one can stop his disgruntled viewers from booing him or his employer from telling him to either change the shirt or lose the job. Also, no one can stop you from getting an exact replica of that shirt and wearing it proudly along with a sandwich board that says "Clothing Rights! Honk If YOu Love Half-Naked Women!"

Land of the free, dude.

[Warren DeMontague]

98. One, he was in Europe. Two, are the women on the shirt really "half naked"?

Three, he's someone who spends most of his time in front of a computer screen, I imagine. The probe he just landed on the comet has spent something like 10 years flying through freezing nothingness, doing not a whole hell of a lot, waiting for this point. I suspect he doesnt interact with non-robotic entities at work, much at all... Do you think they're actually gonna "fire him" over this? Hell, maybe they will. You should start a petition, demanding it! An effective use of time and energy. To be sure.

Lastly, I do think it's safe to say that his purpose in picking out this particular shirt on this particular day was NOT to deliberately piss off hordes of internet denizens looking for the next fulcrum point in their endless interntet gender conflagration, even if that was the end result.

[polly7]

111. I think he just had a d'oh moment when he woke up that morning and put it on.

The outrage over it is hilarious though.

[seabeyond]

113. i think he probably did too. so it is unfortunate that so many are outraged for the fact that a

woman brought up his error in wearing the shirt. and now look, a thread of men, that mostly agree the shirt was inappropriate to wear, going on and on and on.... well, not sure about what. just how bad those women are for saying something out loud about the shirt, even though they fuggin agree it was not appropriate.

truly, awe inspiring, the poutage.

[polly7]

117. Kinda missing the 'poutage' from all the men who agreed, but whatever

gives you something to make a huge deal about.

[seabeyond]

119. HUGE deal i tell you. making a statement is redefined by you as a HUGE deal.

i gotcha. rewrite the story to take into the future, so you can diss and insult.

ya. kinda. just like that polly. thank you for your example.

and ya.

one woman made a reasonable comment about the man wearing that shirt. and the poutage began. threats and all kinds of shit.

we have a thread of it right here and now for people to see.

the majority agree the shirt was not appropriate. the discussion, is that anyone dare say, that shirt was not appropriate as a feminist then is insulted.

warren will make this into another "epic" thread on du, by those silly silly women, over a damn shirt. he is already working hte story in this thread.

[polly7]

120. Sorry, got better things to do than try to figure out what the * you're going on about.

We already established the shirt was inappropriate ...... whether you choose to make this thread another meta name-calling 'huge' deal was up to you - congrats. Not all women take this kind of mistake as some epic attack on feminism, or anything but a mistake, which he apologized for. Over, done. What's the problem?

[seabeyond]

122. ya. you know. i dont get that.

Not all women take this kind of mistake as some epic attack on feminism

when the only disagreement seems to be, not the shirt per se, but feminists, and how bad and silly and ... mean, they are, i really do not get how you can say.... "some epic attack on feminism"

i know you, even as a woman, do not see the attack on feminism. you are one of them rewriting this discussion.

but. this discussion is not about the shirt.

the very discussion is about one woman that dared to say, she thought the shirt was inappropriate. you know. what all of us say.

so. why are you and so many others, blaming feminists in this? or women? or fake feminists? or the prudes?

that is what the discussion has been about. that is what the discussion is on this thread. you are merely agreeing with me, ... woman.

[polly7]

126. No, I don't agree with you on pretty much anything ......... 'woman'. nt.

[seabeyond]

128. you do. you know how i know? cause i often agree with you.

it is only when addressing women on this board, with a group of men, do we ever disagree on any of these issues.

that tells me that the disagreement is not how we see... womens issue.

it is personal.

from my perspective.

then again. who knows. maybe it is merely coincidence.

[ismnotwasm]

142. The shirt is simply idiotic typical sexism

The vile on-line response the women got for criticizing it is what exposes the worms under the rock. Which is why dismissing the situation--I could happily never see that dumbass shirt again--is disingenuous and stupid.

[Warren DeMontague]

159. Well that's convenient.

As long as some bottom-feeder shows up to make some shitty comment on twitter in response, no complaint or "issue" can ever be considered ridiculous, silly, overblown or overwrought?

Sorry, they're two separate issues. The "vile on-line response" isn't acceptable, but that doesn't mean the initial hand-wringing and klaxxon-blaring over the stupid shirt itself wasn't a joke.

[Ravenna44]

133. Agree!

Yeah, gonna agree with this. Really the shirt isn't the big deal, provided women who say "Here's why that shirt disgusts me" are met with respect (not even necessarily agreement, just respect). It's the usual chorus of contemptuous sneers that's the real problem. It's the tropes that are always hauled out when women speak up and men feel criticized - whether the topic is a t-shirt or a gang-rape. The tropes include: "those silly women!" "Those frigid bitches!" "Those dumb whores!" and "Those humorless manhaters!" (I have probably missed a few.)

The men who club together to shout out these epithets are motivated by... What exactly? Fear? Wounded pride? Simple desire to look cool in front of their friends and prove they are not contemptible pussies? Who knows. But what motivates them isn't confidence or strength of character, but some form of weakness. I think that's safe to say.

Outrage isn't the right response to men who use those tropes. Mockery is.

[nomorenomore08]

174. +100

[nomorenomore08]

173. For me, it's not about the shirt itself, so much as the hysterical (yes, I'll use that word here)

reaction to the woman who criticized him. Calling her all sorts of names, telling her to kill herself, etc. I think that reveals far more of a deep-seated problem than the shirt does all by itself.

[Warren DeMontague]

177. And yet, the two things are separate.

One can discuss the original topic- namely, the massively over the top shaming of a dude for his relatively innocuous wardrobe choice- and still not be in favor of whatever else may have gone down on twitter.

I mean, the logic here seems to be that any dubious proposition or half-wit assertion becomes suddenly immune to any and all criticism if some bottom feeder shows up on twitter to make some asinine statement in response. Sorry, no sale there.

[nomorenomore08]

181. Or, the Twitter response may suggest that the *context* of the shirt (not the shirt per se) isn't so

innocuous after all. I suppose either framing is valid, depending what angle you look at it from.

[Warren DeMontague]

185. Except no, the argument that cartoon women on a shirt have anything to do with someone's

Asshole-y twitter comments, is specious at best. I understand that some would like to make the two things the same, however, one would have to accept certain baseline assumptions- like, that wearing a shirt like that indicates "hatred", for one- to even get in the same neighborhood.

I see the pattern, and so do other people- someone makes some wildly inane statement, other people disagree, some chucklemonkey shows up on twitter to say something hateful (even of it is a commonly used, albeit undeniably nasty, internet meme...) but then the existence of said chucklemonkey's assholery somehow not only negates any and all criticism of the original assertion, but somehow makes everyone who disagrees with said assertion, allegedly also culpable in the chucklemonkitude.

Sorry, it doesnt work. And plenty of people are still talking about the shirt itself, how it or similar shirts have personally caused them harm, oppression, and distress, not to mention being somehow shirtly responsible for things like not being able to safely walk home from work... so it is not "just about the response".

A LOT of people are saying that the reaction to the shirt is over the top, that it is silly, and it indicates the skewed priorities of a small but very loud cadre of folks who seemingly do nothing but scour the internet for excuses to get offended.

[nomorenomore08]

197. Fair enough. Like I said, it's how you look at it. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

207. It is. I can simultaneously condemn the nasty twitter response of a few loudmouths

And also still think the original objections were inane and overblown.

[Tsiyu]

107. I've been waiting on you and here you are!

Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything.

He can wear the shirt again next week, and people still won't like it next week.

Personally? If he was gonna go around with female body parts on his shirt, he should have at least given some eye candy to those who like the bare skin of the male form.

As I said before, had he worn hot pants, go-go boots and bunny ears with the shirt, I'd have loved the ensemble.

Edit to add: or hired this guy to stand next to him in this outfit

[Warren DeMontague]

158. I suspect that dude will never wear that shirt again. Hell, he may not ever wear ANY shirt again.

And I hate to break it to you, but Mr. Cometary Science ESA November 2014's abs are probably not as defined as those pictured, above.

But he has PAID for his grievous error, oh he has paid. He may never fully atone for the horrific crime he has apparently committed, but believe me, he has been made aware of his unacceptable conduct.

[Ravenna44]

204. Omg hot

Thanks for this image. Sometimes I love men, and all they do to make me smile

[Tsiyu]

223. ...

[elehhhhna]

48. right?!! suck it up, women!!!1!

[True Blue Door]

59. Sarcasm has to be based on reality to succeed.

Nothing I said suggests your reaction to it, so it's just a non sequitur.

If you can't deal rationally with a subject, you have nothing to add to it.

[Kali]

62. nice insult there

also nice illustration of your hypocrisy

[True Blue Door]

63. If all you have are unexplained, out-of-thin-air smears...

You should probably just see your way out of this conversation.

[Kali]

64. slander?

oh, good edit

[True Blue Door]

65. Congratulations, you've now managed to be LESS than monosyllabic.

Some people here are trying to have a conversation. You are clearly not one of them.

[Kali]

66. Some of us have heard it before.

You revealed your perspective above much better than you think you did.

[True Blue Door]

67. Have you ever heard yourself before?

You respond to arguments with vague, childish smarm in one-liner insults. That you think you're making some kind of point is sad.

That you think you're representing feminism and I'm representing misogyny is fucking delusional.

[Kali]

71. ...

[True Blue Door]

72. Still at a loss for thoughts, I see.

Keep working that, see where it leads you.

[seabeyond]

79. Ah... I know who you are. Yes indeed.

[True Blue Door]

88. Who am I?

[Tsiyu]

108. You are the Walrus

koo-koo-koo-chu....

[True Blue Door]

217. Am not. :p

[Hayabusa]

160. They see socks everywhere.

[True Blue Door]

218. (sigh) Be nice if people had more ideas than suspicions.

[Ravenna44]

78. Trying to understand...

Trying to understand your point, because I think you are speaking civilly, but I am afraid you lost me at the start. Are you pointing to a few tiny factoids ("Angela merkel.... German porn...oppressed Egyptian women&quot and coming out with the sweeping statement that "clearly, sexualization of women has nothing to do with misogyny."??

First of all, Egyptian women ARE utterly sexualized, if by sexualized one means "viewed as sexual" or "cast as sexual". They are ordered to wrap up from hair to toenails because the prevailing culture insists that every particle of a woman - even her wrists, the sound of her feet striking pavement, her eyes above her niqab - is ALL the equivalent of tits and ass. Street harrassment of women is horrible in Egypt because they are viewed as sexual targets for male sport, not as human people the ways males are human people. (And please don't argue; I married a Muslim Arab guy and probably know more than you about the subject.)

Second, are you saying that because Germany has some women in high political office, as well as other women in tight skirts, one can draw conclusions about males and females, society, misogyny? Most countries have both powerful women and scantily clad women - even Egypt has both if you look, actually - but I don't see what that proves or how it argues against my previous post. Women still deal with discrimination and sexism in the countries that elected Indira Gandhi and Violetta Chamorro, and there are lots of sexy-dressed women in those countries too. I just don't see what point you are trying to make and how it relates to me getting offended when a guy wears a naked-lady shirt!

If you are saying the guy has every right to wear what he wants because his individual right to T-shirt choice trumps my right to rip it off him in irritation, I think the law agrees with you and so do I.

But if he wears something that bothers me - for reasons I tried to explain in my previous post - I am allowed to say it bothers me. And you are allowed to say it doesn't bother you. What's wrong with that?

Perhaps we should agree to disagree.

[True Blue Door]

86. I mean that in Egypt, the revealed female form is sternly repressed.

And yet sexual violence and oppression of women is pervasive.

Meanwhile the revealed female form is pervasive in Europe (the comet mission is an ESA mission), while feminist politics and women's rights are very strong.

How can we explain this consistent relationship - this generally inverse proportion between the prevalence of public indulgence in the female form and actual oppression of women?

And I don't think we do disagree. I think we approach the same understanding from male and female perspectives. I totally understand why the guy would like a shirt like that - the women on it are sexy. I also totally understand why it's inappropriate to wear it in a professional context - sexual content is a distraction from the purpose of ESA.

I just don't think it's immoral, and I don't think he deserves any personal judgment whatsoever. Unless someone is a political genius or has never been in a position to offend anyone in the first place, they've run into sensitivity issues at some point that they hadn't considered.

[seabeyond]

89. So, you have backpedaled to it shouldn't be worn at work yet no one judge. Clfdem

Iften told me here in du regardless of the fetish and how offensive us women may find the "fetishes" we were never to judge, shame, or even say anything.

Your argument sound too familiar

[True Blue Door]

94. It was my position from the beginning that it was inappropriate in the workplace.

Anyone - though apparently not you - can read my first post saying so explicitly.

Nor am I criticizing your right to criticize the shirt, merely your priorities in choosing to do so.

[seabeyond]

95. You are changing the argument. You went from spiel attacking feminists, women and others

Speaking out about the shirt.... In the work environment. Whatever your argument is... You want to insult feminists while I guess, agreeing with the very obvious argument the shirt was inappropriate for a work environment

[True Blue Door]

99. I consider myself a (male) feminist.

Which is why I find "fauxminists" who obsess on symbolic trivia and give ammunition to the fedora-wearing douchebags who attack women on the internet so annoying.

[seabeyond]

101. The male feminist defining feminism for us women and telling us who

Are real and "faux".

Gotcha. You would prefer us women to sit down and shut up, allowing you to get down to work on the real issues?

Here is the thing. If women ever concerned themselves with the fedora whatever's? We would make no progress at all.

What I would prefer is men that claim to be women's allies not continually and consistently sabatoge our efforts.

[True Blue Door]

104. My penis means I have no legitimate opinion on sexual politics. Got it.

[seabeyond]

109. you tell women to shut up and let you lead. kinda like me telling blacks and gays to shut up,

i can better identify their issue than they themselves can.

now.... mix the words around again, to ignore what i actually said.

[NaturalHigh]

234. Absolutely nobody has said that.

[tblue37]

139. Those who are privileged to not be in a systematically marginalized and oppressed

subgroup are often completely incapable of comprehending the cumulative effect of experiencing innumerable microaggressions every day, every week, every month, year after year after year.

They view his shirt as a clumsy but insignificant and isolated event. They can't even recognize that it is inherently a microaggression. They don't even *get* the concept of microaggression. Since they don't believe in microaggressions, they can't (*won't*) understand why each one needs to be challenged in order to move toward a state in which so many no longer occur all the time and thus contribute to marginalizing and oppressing the targeted subgroup.

[seabeyond]

140. i think they get it and have learned to argue it to shut women up, and allow them to create

exactly what we are fighting. and i think it is so very clear for all of us, that is why they immediately resort to threats, rape porn fantasy, insults, dismissive derailing comments, death threats, all in the effort to create is as just another "isolated" event to create this norm.

i am watching the process right here and now.

too many people, have repeatedly spelled it out to the same people, and the argument must always be ignored to reduce it to mere a shirt. and a andful of hateful hof women. THAT is what i am challenging. yes.

because this thread clearly spells it out. and the efforts being made by men. right here. right now.

[KitSileya]

163. That is exactly it, and such a good post!

This should be its own OP, because it perfectly sums up so many of the threads here on DU. So many privileged people don't understand because it isn't part of their reality, and refuse to listen to those who actually belong to minority groups, because of their inherent belief in their own superiority. They have to put everything through their own experiences first, because they have grown up being told that their experiences are the norm. In short, they lack self reflection and empathy, and don't like it when people from minority groups point out that theirs is not the only point of view.

[tblue37]

164. Thanks, Kit. nt

[laundry_queen]

165. +1 nt

[Kali]

132. of course you do, of course you are

hmmm where is that head-pat smiley?

[Ravenna44]

100. Thanks for a polite response

Well as far as the inverse relationship between scanty clothes and woman's rights - that's a pretty sticky issue, and I think more complex than you are making it.

The Egyptian woman who is ordered to cover herself is controlled by men. She is dressing this way for them, because they have made the culture to suit themselves, and they have all the power, and she has to fit into it and be what they want.

But the Western woman in revealing clothes: if she's dolled herself up, worked an hour on her outfit, undone the top three buttons of her shirt, done her hair and makeup, and jammed her feet into high heels - she is also dressing this way because it's what men want. No, it's not open coercion as in Egypt - but whether you are talking about a high-fashion woman of Milan or a streetwalker in Berlin, she has worked hard and suffered discomfort to create the look men want her to have. Left to her own devices, wouldnt she choose what was cheap, fast, and comfortable - a grungy t-shirt and sneakers, and her hair cropped short as a boy's?

(Fact: both the German woman and the Egyptian woman will insist they are dressing exactly as they please and are very happy this way. Each will criticize the other in order to reassure herself that she is the truly free one.).

So I don't conclude that sexy-dressed women are liberated from misogyny. Yes, they suffer less misogyny than covered-up women in the Muslim world, but that's because the Muslim world happens to be really big on both treating women terribly and jamming them into big swaths of cloth. You can probably find counterexamples of mountain people in the Andes or Alps where women are just as well-covered as in Egypt, but are also decently respected.

So a man displaying pictures of sexy half-naked women in public doesn't say "liberation!" to me. Surely you understand that, right? - you've seen rap videos, you've watched TV, you've flipped through magazines, you've lived in the world for more than six minutes, you've stepped into the building super's office and seen his dartboard with a porn-mag pic of a bound, gagged woman pinned to it, legs spread and hundreds of dart-holes in her, and darts in the bulls-eyes of her nipples. And so on.

Was it immoral of him to wear the shirt? Well if he was just clueless, then no - but I am still entitled to be as offended as I want, and to say so. "Offended" is a feeling and If I feel it then I feel it, and if you don't feel it, fine - but obviously that is because we have lived different lives. The fact that many female-type people are also offended suggests that I am not crazy.

I think you are saying I simply should not feel offended when I see a man displaying naked women on his shirt. Is that it?

But, why are you the person to decide what I should be offended by? Each of us can decide that for herself. And if a whole lot of women - who have had experiences you have not had - agree that something is offensive, it seems to me that the normal thing is to accept it. And maybe learn from it. But that's optional, of course.

[True Blue Door]

103. I don't want to be accused of "mansplaining," so please understand

that I'm only talking about this a lot because I want to be of value to the subject.

Western sexual power relationships are generally mutual. Plenty of women are comfortable with being adored for their bodies, and it's unrealistic and unfair to demand that men not adore their bodies. It's no more a choice to love the female body than it's a choice for, say, male homosexuals to love something else.

I wouldn't wear a tacky-ass shirt like that dude, but I get wanting to share one's love of the female body. When you love something, you want to talk about it.

Not many men would be offended if women did that to us, wearing shirts with men on them. So it's hard to empathize with a negative reaction beyond abstract intellectual arguments.

Also, I think it's false to view images of sexy women as a subordinating theme. Women see it as subordinating because that's their instinct; men view sexy women as powerful. The fact that sexy women don't necessarily view themselves as powerful isn't a result of men. Nobody chooses Darwin - he chooses us. Our emotions are something we inherit.

You're offended because it's your instinct to see male sexual fantasies as some kind of power statement (they're not). I'm not offended because my instincts are the same as that guy's - even the vague suggestion of the female form is a pleasure to look at. The only way we reach consensus across incompatible instincts (as I think we have) is through rational thought. Rational thought = inappropriate in the workplace, fine in general.

[Ravenna44]

106. Disagree with your theory

...that men's sexual fantasies make me feel powerless due to some instinctive Darwin thing, and that men think sexy women are powerful, also due to some instinctive Darwin thing. I am not sure where you derived that theory - I mean it's interesting and I could think if examples that fit it (a sexy woman can make a man fall at her feet, I guess?) but one can find plenty of examples that dont. Veering into the territory of TMI, i can assure you that plenty of male sexual fantasies (read: porn) are a huge turn-on for me - some because they make me feel powerful and others because they make me feel dominated. That's my brain; other women's mileage may vary! People are complicated and all a bit different - though I concede that there are some general patterns MOST men or MOST women fall into.

Your statement that - if I got you right - "men wouldn't be bothered if a woman wore the opposite number, so they can't be expected to understand what the fuss is about" is commonly heard and I think, not worthy of you. Plenty of men do understand already, just as plenty of women are capable of understanding the male side; neither sex is a monolithic bloc of homogenous thought, slaving stupidly in its Darwinian traces. Empathy and reasoning-by-analogy are wonderful things our advanced simian brains have given us.

I am curious that in a previous post, you said the shirt was inappropriate for work because it was about sex, and sex distracts from comets. The original pornographer's opinion piece didn't speak of distraction but of the tacit message of the shirt and how many women interpret it. So, so far we haven't met on a basic proposition which I will now put before you: the shirt is a mistake not because it is sexually distracting, but because a big chunk of the population interprets it as the pictorial equivalent of a "Chicks suck" sign posted on the workplace door, and the chicks in question should not be subjected to that. In other words, it's a "treat all people with respect" issue, not a "sex fantasies don't belong in the workplace" issue.

[nomorenomore08]

178. It is something like a "No Girls Allowed" sign, in a certain sense. Good way to put it. n/t

[True Blue Door]

219. It's inappropriate for the work environment because both the innocent message

Last edited Mon Nov 17, 2014, 01:37 AM - Edit history (2)

i.e., the enjoyment of the female body, and the negative message that women might derive from it would distract from the scientific purpose of the organization. If the organization were a modeling agency, that would be different - in that context, politicizing the images would be the distraction.

When I said men find sexy women powerful, I think that covers both men who enjoy that power and men who are threatened by it and react by trying to demean women. But because sexual motivation is asymmetric, women do not necessarily feel empowered by men seeing them as powerful - they might feel "fetishized."

Any imbalance in the strength of motivation is treated as a form of domination. Because women aren't motivated to wear shirts with naked men, then the fact that men wear shirts with naked women is some kind of act of aggression. But immoderate motivation is not aggression. Being more interested in the female form than women are in the male form is not objectification.

If you were to poll people who obsess on these issues and ask them to describe a perfectly gender-equal society, most likely they would give a laundry list of ways that male motivations are restrained - not ways that people learn to understand each other.

Very likely there's a pay imbalance between men and women at ESA, as there usually is everywhere. But instead of talking about that, we're talking about a man's shirt.

[seabeyond]

112. you leave out all histories reality of oppression to create this lovefest of supposed equality.

this whole post falls short on our reality. but, hey, thanks for letting us know how little our actual reality that we live matters in the scheme of things. just ignore reality, and it will go away?

[True Blue Door]

220. What the fuck are you talking about?

[seaglass]

115. It all boils down to this: "So it's hard to empathize." I truly get that. You are far from being

alone here.

[True Blue Door]

221. I know I'm not, judging by some of the responses I've gotten.

[nomorenomore08]

175. You know what? I love attractive females bodies too.

But I have no desire to broadcast my fantasy life in a public fashion, and anyone who does strikes me as insecure at best. I'm far from a "prude," but there's something to be said for not oversharing.

And I must say, the stuff about "Darwin" and "instincts" is a flimsy argument at the very least.

[Ravenna44]

188. Lol agreed!

I really wanted to engage this poster in a discussion because he was polite and seemed to have actual thoughts (not things I am accustomed to seeing in Men Who Find It Important To Tell Women Why We shouldn't Feel Offended). But on this response I got the feeling he is either a bit off, or desperately scrambling for reasons to never ever accept that anything I say has merit. The kind of person who finds it important to die clutching his unassailable assumptions to his breast. (We know the type, don't we? Often found in fundamentalist religions.)

Ya know, if I were a guy and wanted to man-bond over my love for the female form, I might go to a strip club with friends; or point out a sexy woman on the street. But I hardly think this guy wore this shirt to share his appreciation of women with his colleagues. (I imagine them turning him around and exclaiming over the hottie on his left man-boob or the one hanging over his butt-crack. "Dude, look at the one by my armpit!". "Whoa, niiiiice!". Yeah umm that's just weird...

[nomorenomore08]

195. Well said. n/t

[True Blue Door]

222. You're welcome to be a private person in your pleasures.

Other people are welcome to be "out loud and proud" in whatever floats their boat, so long as they don't do it in an inappropriate professional context that undermines the purpose of their jobs.

As for Darwin and instincts, it's a pretty tenuous claim that the single overwhelming fact that shapes our existence and reality is a "flimsy argument." The past - the literal, physical past - is the cause of the present. Argue with that and you might as well be advocating Lysenkoism.

[vdogg]

31. The shirt was a gift to him

From a close friend of his, Elly Prizeman, who designed the shirt as a kind of good luck thing. He wore it to honor her. Needless to say they were both kinda shocked by the uproar. This is the risk you run when you don't adhere to at least a minimum dress code at work. What may seem ok to you may seem outrageous to others when there's a lack of context. A business casual dress code would've kept this whole thing from happening.

[lexington filly]

36. For luck? Literally an epic fail for the guy.

[riderinthestorm]

52. The shirt was designed and created by a woman.

Elly Prizeman is female.

The guy wore it to honor her gift.

I too actually read all the details before I rushed to judgement

[Demit]

134. She bought existing fabric & sewed it together.

Not exactly designing & creating.

[riderinthestorm]

136. I can't do it and don't know anyone else who could

Amongst my extensive family, friends, clients, and acquaintances



I understand its easy to denigrate those who work in traditional arts like yarn and cloth as not "real" artists but I don't believe that.

I think its pretty impressive.

If a friend gives me a handcrafted handcrafted anything, I'm grateful, not dismissive of their efforts/work. Even if I didn't particularly like it, I'd still make an effort to wear it at least once. I have been the beneficiary of items like the shirt in question so I already know how to act like a grown up about it, ( knitted items seem to be what I get gifted, particularly ear warmers in my case, not sure why I'm a magnet for them but I dutifully wear the gift, even the pink sparkly crocheted ones with enormous purple flowers placed directly over the ears reminiscent of Princess Leia buns).

Please note, I've already said the shirt is tacky and definitely not for the workplace. I don't like it. Be that as it may, I think the guy is your typical nerd scientist who isn't particularly fussed about his clothing. He got the shirt from a female friend as a gift and decided to honor her gift and wear it. Bad timing. Wrong day. Wrong environment. But honestly, I take him at his word that he was simply completely unaware and I accept his heartfelt apology.

[Demit]

137. That's all very nice, but my point was she didn't design the fabric.

I was just correcting your apparent misconception that she designed it. And she probably used an existing paper pattern, that somebody else created, so she didn't create that part, either.

There are people who design fabric for commercial sale. They are fabric designers. There are people who create their own fabric, or batik their own fabric, and they are textile artists. There are people who create their own clothing designs, and they are clothing designers. This woman bought fabric and sewed it together (her own words).

I am not denigrating people who sew. I don't know why you would write a long post suggesting I am.

[riderinthestorm]

141. I'm sorry. You appear to be denigrating her abilities

Last edited Sat Nov 15, 2014, 08:33 PM - Edit history (1)

She has a talent I neither possess nor do I know anyone else who possesses this skill. I neither knew or cared whether she designed the actual material. I was in some awe of the act of creating this one of a kind garment. Clearly you are not impressed. Understood.

I stand chastened that this woman "merely" sewed something unique for her friend and is not, NOT, an artist in any way shape or form, nor is anyone else who creates a unique article.

Its always a relief to be told what we're supposed to be thinking on this board.

On edit, do you have a link to your assertion about how she created this garment?

[Demit]

143. Good grief! She can sew. A lot of people sew, even if you don't know any.

You don't call people designers if they aren't designers. This is not denigrating people who can sew!!! Sewing is a nice skill to have!!! But it is not the same as design. They are two distinct abilities. Which is why we use the different terminology. What the hell is there for you to be so wounded about here?

[tammywammy]

148. There are stores that sell patterns.

I've made clothes and costumes from a pattern, I sure as hell wouldn't say I "designed" it. That's just silly.

[bettyellen]

146. LOL, it is a skill- there is nothing artistic about buying fabric and a pattern and sewing.

The whole artist angle is laughable, as is the it came from a woman thing.

[laundry_queen]

166. IKR?

I'm one of the least artistic/creative people I know and I could totally sew a shirt like that. Easily. Not much difficulty to knowing how to follow a pattern. I used to make tons of clothes for my kids when they were little. Not hard. Same with cooking. People say I'm a good cook. Not really - I'm just good at following recipes.

[bettyellen]

167. yup- some sewers I have worked with professionally are masters, some just passable.

But none kid themselves they "designed" a friggen bowling shirt because they chose fabric.

[justiceischeap]

53. Just because the shirt was designed by a woman

doesn't make it less offensive to other women (or men).

And some women are going to see that shirt and wonder if sexual harassment is allowed at that workplace.

My last job I had, there was a guy fired because he made too many sexual "jokes" one of which was that because women have "pussies" they can never be broke because we can always make money on our backs. He followed that up with a "joke" about his 12 year old daughter contributing to the family financially by using a stripper pole.

I've heard lots of guys make really inappropriate comments at work that we women either laugh along with or be marked a prude or frigid or a bitch.

So, yeah, a tits and ass shirt, no matter who designed it, isn't really appropriate attire for his type of workplace. A strip club if he was a bouncer, definitely.

[Warren DeMontague]

87. and just because a pornographer and an atheist thinks this shirt is porny

doesn't make it so.

[d_b]

37. the only thing wrong with that shirt

is that it's somehow shittier than his tattoos.


lol @ this bullshit "It says, “Women are for sex.” It says, “Every woman working on this project, every woman working on a similar project, every woman working in STEM, every woman aspiring to work in STEM — this is what I think of you. Every girl dreaming of working in STEM someday — this is what I’ll think of you when you’re grown up. Tits and ass. That’s what you are to me.”

jesus christ, just nuke the god damn planet already and be done with us.

[customerserviceguy]

40. That's what I noticed second (and quickly) about the picture

He's got some major ink going on there.

Geeks are not usually socially conscious of the messages that they send with their personal appearance. This fellow is just an example of that.

[d_b]

41. no, he's clearly a diabolical minion of the patriarchy

sent here to teach girls that they're all tits and ass and worthless fuck toys and thats all.

or some silly shit.

[customerserviceguy]

45. Yeah, I guess I hadn't considered that

Thanks for pointing it out. Hey, he's no rocket scientist.

[d_b]

49. Lol

[customerserviceguy]

51. I thought you'd enjoy that! n/t

[Tsiyu]

47. You meet so many in this life

you expect it.

So you aren't accused of being naive and easily duped, you see. Heaven forbid you should be easily duped.

"It's your own fault you fell for that guy's innocent act!"

So then you're not naive and easily duped anymore, and suddenly that's wrong.

"Why are you so paranoid?"

So you're damned if you trust and damned if you don't. Damned if I don't means I reckon I'll just share what I think about that stupid shirt - no matter who made it - just like he chose to share the ugly rag with the whole world.

May as well assume the worst. Like you have here as well.

Cheers to gender wars and other useless but interesting shit we humans engage in

[elehhhhna]

50. kinda how it looks from here.

[awoke_in_2003]

39. pornagrapher...

This reminds me of the movie Duplex. One of the characters is a hit man, and his cover is a pornagrapher. I know, off topic, but I thought that that would be an excellent cover. someone asks you what you do, you say pornagrapher, conversation ends.

[bluesbassman]

56. Probably not as fast as when you tell them you're a bass player.

Of course sometimes they try to keep the conversation going by saying "oh, your the guy that loads all the equipment, right?". I just nod and say yup.

[awoke_in_2003]

70. bass player, pornagrapher

What's the difference?

[bluesbassman]

77. I think those other guys make a lot more dough.

But on the bright side, I sleep really well at night and only look over my shoulder when changing lanes.

[woolldog]

54. I really don't see the big deal with the shirt.

People these days are looking for things to be pissed off about. It's a shirt.

[Warren DeMontague]

80. I think she'd have more of a point if the shirt really was just pictures of naked women.

As it is, to the untrained eye it just looks like a garishly colored hawaiian shirt. You really have to look to see the female figures, and you REALLY need to zoom in to figure out if they're actually, in the midst of that giant technicolor train wreck, "scantily clad".

[joshcryer]

84. My take is 80s scifi.

It's poor taste for the event he was attending but that doesn't bother me a bit.

[Warren DeMontague]

85. He may have gotten carried away by the excitement over "mohawk guy" at JPL

like, hey, let's look non-traditional, because we're wacky non-traditionalists bucking stodgy tradition!

Didn't work out like that, for dude. Oops.

Still, with overreactions like this one cannot win, because even suggesting the overreaction might be an overreaction only invites additional overreaction.

Somewhere in a closet I've got a Hawaiian shirt covered with rum bottles. I think it belonged to my late Grandfather. If I wore it, would I be insulting alcoholics?

[joshcryer]

91. You make an interesting point.

I hadn't considered he was trying to stand out amongst the rest of the literal suits. In all of the various briefings I saw with him he tried to be "different."

What's bothersome to me is I think had the risque imagery been on the back of the shirt or even on the left side, we probably wouldn't be even discussing this. Bad choice of attire in any event and he handled the reaction appropriately.

[Warren DeMontague]

97. I like wearable art, but it's an ugly shirt IMHO.

Still I really had to look to see what the fuss was about. Maybe my eyes are going bad.

[Tsiyu]

118. There would have been no fuss really

had the HeMan Woman Hater's Club/Basement Brigade not made a bunch of ugly tweets to a woman who expressed her distaste for the shirt.

Few would have known or cared.

See? If you're a man, you should be allowed to wear what you want to wear.

As a woman, you should be able to speak what you want to speak.

So there was an exchange. And a bunch of males went apeshit BECAUSE A WOMAN DID NOT LIKE A MAN'S SHIRT.

So there is your fuss. Why do those men feel like they have to attack women who have opinions?

Why do they freak out and get all hysterical because a woman does not like a man's choice of clothing?

WHAT IS ALL THE MALE FUSS ABOUT OVER THIS SHIRT?

[seabeyond]

121. i knew nothing about this. watched the OPs stay on top of first page, and never entered.

then i ran into a couple of Ops with men hating on hof again. you know. insulting me. and a few others. that woud be you too, cause you spoke up, even though you are not hof.

hearing me once again, being insulted, i actually read this and another OP.

i really do not give a fuck about the shirt. i am glad at least one woman said something. fuck. many women and men should have said something before he put his body in front of the camera, ya think? then it would not be an issue.

instead of hearing the hysterical women upon reading this and another OP, i found that it is the men in a poutage cause a woman said something about the shirt the man wore. and once again, it became a use for men to insult feminists. and no more. or to tell us who the real feminists are. or to use to tell us what feminists are suppose to talk about.

or.... that as a man feminists, we need to shut up, sit down, and let him lead, .... our cause.

and that... is the epic, of yet another of these threads.

for months, there will be men that will say.... look at those silly women, addressing that shirt, SI, panties, spiderwomen, ..... the list is getting long.

when all along it was addressing mostly men, telling us what feminism is and should be. oh. and insulting us.

this is what DI is being used for. this is what i was talking about in hof. and another "epic" op is being created to specifically call out and insult, belittle and ridicule hof members in the furture. though, most of these voices have nothing to do with hof. they insult all voice on this progressive board, by stifling voice to the few.... and the nasty hof women. you know. the baddest of the bad. even badder than the troll rw racist, homophobic, misogynist.

that. is what this is about.

[Tsiyu]

124. Oh, yeah

But this is a great way to illustrate a concept that few refuse to see.

The frothing at the mouth online BULLY posturing done toward women who say anything, the baring of the teeth and threats made to women in all fields when they are in any way public figures - this is the problem, and no matter how some men want to minimize that or cover it up (and we can certainly never expect these same men to appear in a thread to defend women for god's sake, they'd shrivel and die) it's happening.

Nobody tweeted death threats to dude. Nobody posted that they wanted to rape him or that they knew where he lived and were coming to kill him and his little dog. Hordes of women did not conspire to evilly assault the guy.

We just think the choice of shirt was skeezy, thoughtless and narcissistic.

So a woman expresses this, and suddenly she is repeatedly told to kill herself?

Um. Can any guy explain by what male logic we go from "bad choice of shirt" to "go kill yourself?"

Are men really that touchy about fashion critique?

Who knew?

[seabeyond]

127. the flipside. a girl, young, inexperienced is raped on video. it is distriuted, seen, for male

entertainment.

she dare to declare rape, even while it sits on video, distributed for men to get off on....

she is told to die.... to her very real death.

and that.... is when these "little" threats, morph into a very real issue. surely, any man will say. that a girl, .... fuggin girl, raped, filmed, distributed for men to be entertained by, ..... was harassed to her death.

surely, men will say that is wrong.

how many steps from the littlest. this woman being told to kill herself

to many women on this board having rape fantasy threats, and DIE

to any woman who says something men do not like all over the net is threatened, out of her home

to our girl, that was raped, filmed, distributed on line for men to get off on, harassed to her death.

now. i spelled out what us "fake" feminists are yammering on about.

connected the fuggin' dots.

[Tsiyu]

129. It's pretty sickening

and it won't hit home for some until it happens to someone they love.

When they see that viciousness that happens, far from just expressing opinion, these cretins have no qualms about offering graphic depictions of the violence they will do to the women they stalk. Over the most inconsequential shit.

This just proves it.

Here we have a bunch of guys coming here to say "this is no big deal"and it's like HELLO!!!!!!

If it's no big deal then why should someone who talks about no big deal go kill herself?

Why did a bunch of men go apeshit on the intertubes because a woman dislikes a man's choice of shirt?

Why are men so hysterical?

What is the fuss about, guys?

Are you sensitive about your clothes? Should the woman go kill herself because she didn't respect that?

I really do want to understand male angst.

[seabeyond]

130. and what is really ironic. these men are saying the shirt was inappropriate.

boggles, the mind.

well. until they go to a site, that is safe in their man card world, to say. .... they would simply wear the shirt to piss women off.

meh.

no shit.

lol

but we have to all pretend otherwise i guess, to get along.

heavy burdened sigh....

i say, mostly in a laugh cause woman. later. i am out of here. but it is always a pleasure to read your posts of reason, to the hysteria.

[nomorenomore08]

184. Excellent questions. I wonder about many of the same things myself, from my vantage point as a man.

[riderinthestorm]

131. This is all very true....nt

[seabeyond]

135. woman. and it is you and the others i run into on threads like these, that thrill me to staying on

du. so many exceptional people i love.

what a beautiful day it is here today. will hit 70. and midnight, we will go into a snowstorm, to wake up to a bunch of white.

how lovely is that.

always good to wave back at you.

i am going ot go off, and enjoy my day. i hope you do the same.

[Warren DeMontague]

157. No, there are two separate issues.

The response, the ugly tweets you mention, are one thing- and unacceptable, but the fact that they apparently happened doesn't validate the initial complaint.

Two, the entire issue has still been mostly about the shirt itself, and NOT about the response to the response to the shirt. That's what the OP is about, for instance.

[nomorenomore08]

183. It does have that "Heavy Metal" (the movie, not the music genre) sort of vibe to it.

Someone else compared the women pictured to a Meat Loaf album cover, which I found amusing.

[Warren DeMontague]

187. I can see clearly that there are faces of women on it.

But to spot exactly how scantily clad (or not) those women are, you really have to look closely.

Heavy Metal was a classic.

[Jesus Malverde]

186. The print

https://www.fabric.com/buy/0325948/nicoles-prints-fired-up-pinup-girls-blue

[joshcryer]

83. The shirt is poor taste, that's about it.

[leeroysphitz]

116. Here's a pic of the woman who made that shirt.

Maybe your pornographer friend could go tell her how inappropriate her artistic expression is.

As long as everyone keeps pandering to the grade school gripes of those who do not understand what is actually going on, they will continue taking offense at more and more things, knowing that people, who really don't have time for their nonsense, will just roll-over and apologize for fear of being labelled "misogynist".

I gotta say, if that was me, I wouldn't have offered some meaningless apology to an internet attention whore. I would have released a statement saying how absurd and unfair it was that coverage of real accomplishments could be hijacked by childish objections coming from people who neither understand nor care about the true point of wearing such a shirt to such an occasion.

Your pornographer friends eloquent arguments aside I think any person who's been on the intertubes for longer than five minutes recognized this as just another shameless twitterverse attention grab that wont be remembered in a week.

Still it's sad that some people will misuse the name of a just cause to cynically shit on other people's accomplishments. *sigh*

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/support-and-honour-for-the-accomplishments-of-matt

[seabeyond]

125. here is the bottom line. we have a culture working hard as creating all women as mens porn.

it has been going on a while now.

women and girls are damn tired of it. you can tell us we have to accept it. yet, today, we women and girls are gonna say.... no. you do not get to define me as your porn.

do not give me your fantasized rape porn fantasy, you would like see done to me. do not yell at me, what you want ot do to my body. do not stick your porn in my face, cause you want that on your body.

and expect me, and a lot of other women and girls, not telling you all to fuck off.

yes there will be some women that get off on it. and a lot more women and girls, men and boys that will say, stop it the fuck off. like pelosi having to deal with this shit, and hillary, cause they dare to get old, so that is what media focus's on, while all the old mans age, is not discussed.

it feeds into our very real... real life.

and we get to say, .... no.

right?

[hlthe2b]

138. Way to TOTALLY miss the point

[Tsiyu]

144. What's the point?

Is the shirt maker now an internet heroine, a victim?

Is the dude who wore it a victim?

Did anyone tell either of them to go kill themselves?

Nope.

The point of the original thread about this topic was the overreaction by the HeMan Woman Hater's/Basement Brigade who told a woman to go kill herself because she didn't like a shirt.

But fuck that.

Let's play violins for anyone but a woman who was stalked and told all sorts of ugly, degrading things because she didn't like a guy's shirt.

WE WILL DISCUSS ANYTHING BUT THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

( Cue temper tantrum wherein bunch of dudes drop to floor and have complete meltdowns until we stop discussing the woman who was stalked and instead agree the Man of the Hoammade Shirt is a poor, downtrodden victim of eebull wymminhoods! )

[tammywammy]

149. The point is the shirt was inappropriate in a workplace.

I wouldn't give a shit if his half-blind just came out of a coma grandmother made the shirt and then died after putting I the last stitch. It was inappropriate FOR WORK.

I like pinup girls. I have pinup art work at home. You know where I don't have pinup art work - at fucking work!

[leeroysphitz]

151. Are you kidding me?

An internet attention seeker got bad internet attention? Who could have seen that coming? And further more who gives a shit. Quit trying to derail the conversation with nonsense. Oh noes! Some 14 year olds on 4chan found her address...

[Tsiyu]

153. I have absolutely no idea what you are saying

but I am sorry this poor man was so severely victimized. Have a


and a rainbow flag



We will hold a vigil for him, as he is The Subject of All Victimhood by the ebbull wymminhoods

[Ravenna44]

190. Lol!

Okay, loved that!

Read a recent article about a gamer girl who was stalked and threatened with death for something like, she criticized the sexism in a certain game. In an interview, she detailed how the terroristic threats had made her life a nightmare - and said gaming had always been her passion and the threats not only terrorized her but broke her heart. The "MALES PUNISH FEMALES WHO DARE CRITICIZE THEM" dynamic had driven her from a world she loved; one she had thought loved her back..

The slavering-mob behavior of male geeks determined to (figuratively, we hope) gang-bang a lone dissenting woman into submission, is really pathetic - and yet, for the targeted women, quite scary. I think at heart these threats are the response of men who were once rejected high-school nerds and are really insecure and, as adults, are still desperate to prove themselves "cool" and "strong" ... by threatening women anonymously!

Really, the weakness and consequent violence of these pitiful manboys is quite sad. But while I am sorry for them, I am getting my concealed-carry license.

[Tsiyu]

192. keep yourself safe for sure

Google maps won't even show up to film our roads up here lol.

It's pretty dark and gothic, but any of those freaks decide to take a little ride up here will probably leave without having caused any mischief and with severe poopy pants.

I'm too old and crotchety to give a flying.

But it really pisses me off that there are those idiots who feel free to threaten. I tried to talk on a Mens Rights group forum about it - very respectfully, which is so hard for me in the company of idiots, but they banned me anyways for having boobies AND an opinion, so there you go when it comes to any friendly outreach.

I've enjoyed your posts here. I'm not on DU too much anymore but when I read about this on another site I had to come here and see what was being said. I'm a masochist, I guess.

[Ravenna44]

196. I love old and crotchety women!

It's pretty great to be too old to care if a man thinks we are behaving properly! Remember to aim for the torso. It's easiest to hit, and whether you miss high or low you'll do some damage!

On the other hand I am still raising kids so I still have hope I can teach my daughters and son to make the world better for women ... and everyone else.

It's been great to hear from you and so many kindred spirits here .

[Tsiyu]

200. I have no doubt you are raising awesome kids

I just watched the movie "That Evening Sun" and I think at my age, letting them think you're half out of it is the best defense.

But funny, because there are so many young people who invite me places and seem to love my advice and company, so everyone must need at least one old crotchety nag around! I try to hermitize, but the yoots won't let me.

Cheers

[MerryBlooms]

123. I'm not really bothered by the shirt in general, but

it's not appropriate work attire.

As for 'honoring' the woman who made/designed it, I rather think it was free product placement.

[polly7]

162. Go, Ana!

I'm sad seeing his tearful apology .... wearing a cartoon shirt that so overshadowed such a great accomplishment with rage, and even hate, just shows how little we value science and technology anymore, which is a horrible shame.

Just freaking stupid.

And she's right ..... any woman so offended at an ugly cartoon shirt that would let it stop her from working in the STEM program does not deserve to even work there. We're not delicate flowers that need to be protected from what offends us, don't destroy those who admittedly make mistakes and blame them for stopping a dream. That's just a lame excuse. I remember when paramedics in different places would make comments about not being thrilled to work with women, we ignored it and lifted and carried exactly what they did with no problems. It didn't take long to have most of them very happy to have us there. I get so tired of the outrage over stupid things and excuses.

[Warren DeMontague]

168. It's fucking ridiculous.

Outside of the rarefied air of a few folks' tumblrs, most people on planet Earth seem to agree.

[alp227]

182. What you call "delicate flowers" I call people who USE THEIR BRAINS instead of blindly accepting

everything that goes on around them. What happened to having a moral conscience and speaking out for what's right & wrong? It's so frustrating how people refuse to call a spade a spade and frame issues around the speakers ad hom (like "OH YOUR SO OFFENDED&quot instead of around the issues themselves (what kind of message the shirt symbolizes).

[polly7]

189. Well, many women who USE THEIR BRAINS

(see, I can use all caps too, for whatever they're supposed to prove) don't blindly accept the idea that images of cartoons are worthy of anything more than a 'what an ugly fucking shirt!' or something similar, when a truly memorable milestone in technology has been reached. Ban all Betty Boop memorabilia, all cartoons showing men and women in exaggerated, and yes, stupid looking costume, demand the removal of sexy tattoos (no don't, I've got a nice one). If I'd listened to all the stereotypical warnings I'd gotten about not being able to do the 'heavy work' with EMS, I wouldn't have considered it, even though it was the most satisfying thing I've ever done. I believe many women look for things to make themselves victims, and I honestly don't care if anyone agrees with that or likes it, or not. My young nieces are very, very strong girls who know exactly what they want in life and how they're going to get there - so much more driven and educated on life than I was at that age. One who I had brunch with today saw the shirt on facebook and laughed then more or less described it as I just did. As did her brother. That was it ..... better things to talk about - like their plans for university and rent. They couldn't have cared less. Of course there's violence against women, horrible mistreatment and inequality all over the world that we DO need to be outraged over and actually do something about. But this??? It's bullshit.

[alp227]

191. One can be sex-positive without being unnecessarily raunchy.

I personally am sex positive but would never shove sexually explicit imagery in other people's faces unlike this stupid ass scientist.

[polly7]

193. I doubt he thought much about shoving anything in anyone's face, and that it was just probably

a moment of stupidity when he put it on that morning. We've all done things that have offended someone at one time or another.

[alp227]

194. "We've all done things that have offended someone at one time or another."

So? Right is right, and wrong is wrong. Rationalization is meaningless.

[polly7]

199. So???

Really?! What's been done to others is so much more meaningless than the horrible offense this poor guy did? Yes, right is right and wrong is wrong - you have no idea how much hurt something that you might even laugh about could cause someone ......... but, the shirt! I understand why younger women often laugh at crap like this.

[Violet_Crumble]

224. You must have seen another shirt. That one was ugly, not sexually explicit n/t

[Ravenna44]

210. Interesting

I think it's great that this commenter speaks up strongly and has her own opinions and is successful in her field.

However, she uses a snide, dishonest rhetorical trick when she says, "If you let a shirt drive you out of STEM, you don't deserve to work in STEM."

If it were just ONE SHIRT ONE TIME then obviously no one would give a damn. Some of us give a damn because it fits a pattern we are all too familiar with. And tHe thing is... This lady knows this. She isnt stupid. She has probably dealt with sexism and harrassment herself throughout her career (I hope I am wrong but the odds are decent) or has known other women in broadcasting who have been on the receiving end of unjust treatment. So she is deliberately disingenuous when she mocks other women for "letting a single ugly shirt scare them off". She understands that the issue is serious but she goes for the cheap male laugh to ingratiate herself with the boys.

I think almost all women are at least a little bit Uncle Toms - we all want to fit in; we are mostly afraid of being targeted as feminazis or ugly bitches or whatever. So we laugh along with the bad jokes, we huffily deny we are feminists, we keep silent when offended, etc.

This woman has risen high - and to do that, she has had to make herself palatable to the boys around her. Denying sexism exists, and mocking women who speak of it, is a good way to avoid male anger and retribution. She is proving herself a well-behaved, non-threatening, supportive, somewhat submissive woman who is "on the boys' side". In fact she is useful to them - a woman publicly mocking feminists is a wonderful thing! So she fits in and does the tap-dance. This way she is allowed to stay and the boys will not sabotage her or get her fired.

I understand where she is coming from. I wish her well and hope she has a stellar career. But if one day she gets fired despite all her efforts to be one of the boys - and then comes out with a tell-all account of chronic workplace harrassment and how she had to pretend she liked it to keep her job - well, i won't be utterly surprised.

[Warren DeMontague]

225. Or maybe, just maybe, Ana Kasparian isn't an "Uncle Tom" as you put it, and maybe she's NOT saying

something she doesn't truly believe, as you are clearly implying, just so that the patriarchy will accept her.

Maybe- hear me out for a minute, I know, craaaaazy theory- maybe she genuinely doesn't think the shirt is a big deal, doesn't think it's offensive, doesn't think it's the societal harm objectifying equivalent to klan propaganda or whatever.. maybe she genuinely thinks ANY outrage over this shirt is NOT "serious", but instead is totally obnoxiously ridiculous. After all, that's what she SAID.

Could it be? Is it possible, just maybe, that she REALLY thinks the stuff she's saying? Is it inconceivable that maybe, just maybe, she's expressing her own views?

Because here you're either calling this woman a liar, or someone too oblivious to hold the 'correct' (i.e. yours) position on this. I don't know, that seems a little insulting to Ms. Kasparian.

[Ravenna44]

227. You did not read my post I think

Plenty of women don't find the shirt offensive. By this point even I don't find it offensive - since by the guy's reaction it seems clear he meant no harm.

If you will READ what I wrote instead of frothing over in an emotional knee-jerk way: I referred specifically to her ""If you let a SHIRT keep you out of STEM" silliness.

People commonly use rhetorical tricks to win arguments. It's undeniable that the lady set up a straw man to get a cheap laugh. Why she was willing to go for the cheap laugh on this subject is what I find interesting.

You are a troll I take it? Or maybe just not a thoughtful reader.

[Warren DeMontague]

228. I'm a troll?

Nice.



Well, whatever I am, I've been here 10 years.. You've been here what, 5 minutes?

I've been here long enough to know that it's against the rules to call people trolls. Even in the form of a question.

Beyond that, the gist of your prior post is that whatever Ms. Kasparian was doing in her commentary, she was doing it "to curry favor" or some such shit. She was being an Uncle Tom, again your words. Couldn't possibly be because she made up her own mind and was expressing her own opinion.

That's pretty damn insulting to Ms. Kasparian.

[lumberjack_jeff]

213. Exactly right. n/t

[joglee]

172. honest question

And I do not mean this one way or another, just strictly looking for opinions.

This article comes from a supposed porn star, someone who has sex and puts body on display, so that other guys and women can get off to their body and the actions.

Yet they finds his pinup girl shirt offensive....why?

I mean yeah the shirt was a bad move, but what makes it worse than having millions of random strangers getting off to your body in your video?

[Warren DeMontague]

179. the opinion of "a pornographer" only becomes relevant to some when making a point they agree with

Under all other circumstances "porn" is monolithic and the folks who produce it to be universally condemned.

[LittleBlue]

180. Was too busy to notice "shirtstorm". Let me get this straight

He landed a moving piece of metal on a comet traveling 135k per hour. And the talk was about his shirt.

[djean111]

226. Yup. In a nutshell. That shirt completely negated the whole thing. For some. n/t

[NaturalHigh]

235. One of the most significant scientific accomplishments of all time...

and some people are worried about a corny shirt that looks like it could have been worn by Hawkeye Pierce.

[Warren DeMontague]

236. Remember when we all laughed at John Ashcroft for covering up the boobs on the statue?

Last edited Wed Nov 19, 2014, 02:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Ha, what a ridiculous puritanical goofball!

Ha, Ha.

Ha.




I don't know what the hell happened between then and now, but the authoritarian wing of progressive thought is out of control, and making a joke out of actual drives for equality and justice.

People ought to remember that the party that is seen as full of self-righteous, uptight humorless scolds, generally loses elections.