If Everyone Knew This Astonishing Fact About Unions, We'd All Be In One

[Playinghardball]

When times are tough, we could all use this kind of increase in wages . .


Found on the Facebook page of the Michigan Nurses Association

[teddy51]

1. I belonged to a Union for most of my working life, and it is a fact that Unions help

non Union staff with keeping up in wages and benefits.

[Brickbat]

2. K&R for the truth.

[Bruce Wayne]

3. Isn't that just because union members' jobs require more skills?

[Doremus]

4. Strength in numbers. Collective bargaining gives power to workers that they lack individually.

You can't discount that, try as some might.

[tk2kewl]

5. not at all

there are unions for low skill jobs as well

[Bruce Wayne]

8. Oh, of course. But in aggregate, aren't skilled workers more likely

to be able to form unions? Those with soft skills or untrained in particular industries are, on the average, going to earn lower wages, as well as being in a more vulnerable position to be fired if they try to unionize, no?

I'm not sure we're making different points, when you get to the reasons behind why some union jobs thrive and others get exported overseas to non-union-friendly places. But the graphic in the OP just kinda makes it look like "join a union-get a raise," which is a bit misleading.

[jeff47]

23. No, it actually works the opposite

The more "skilled" a person is, the better they're doing individually, which greatly reduces the drive to form a union.

The less skilled, the more pressure to form a union because the employees are more easily replaced, and thus more abused by management.

That's why Wal-Mart has to work very hard to disrupt unionizing, while IBM doesn't....for now.

[brush]

32. skilled workers not only ones that should unionize

Get out and get more exposure. Those so called "soft skilled" workers that you so subtly scoff at have been unionized for years in many cities . . . sanitation workers, hotel workers, etc., and they have been successful in fighting much of the exploitation of said workers that existed before they were unionized.

[Bruce Wayne]

94. Scoff?

Oy. Welcome to DU, where someone is always ready to tell you what you really meant by that

[quakerboy]

42. Nope

Skilled workers are more likely to opt out of unions, as they know their skills are necessary, and so does the company hiring them. They are more likely to not have a union, as they are probably able to get closer to a fair wage on their own.

Unions are for the less specialized worker. For the waiter, the grocery checker, etc. They are the ones who, without a union, get crap and less for wages and benefits.

Join a union, get a raise. That's about a fair way of putting it. Hell, all your buddies join a union, and you get a raise too. Its a pretty sweet deal.

[pasto76]

47. Unions are for anyone who needs to have clear and documented working conditions

"less specialized"? Way to denigrate everyone. You mean "non technical" or non computer oriented jobs? maybe something in business? baloney.

Having known PLENTY of middle management and "project managers" my trade as an Ironworker is much more specialized than those jobs.

[quakerboy]

55. I appologize

It was not my intent to denegrate anyone. I was thinking back to my father, who always paid his union dues but held the attitude that "professionals" should opt out of the union. Maybe I should have reflected on the fact that my dad has always been an oddity before shoving my foot in my mouth.

I certainly agree with your opinion of middle management in charge of workers. I strongly believe that management should have experience with the hands on work of the people they are supposedly overseeing.

My intent was to indicate that unions are not only or even primarily for purely highly skilled highly trained persons. They are for the protection of workers, and often times the least specialized workers are the most at risk of abuse. I would imagine its easier to push around a grocery store clerk who can be replaced by any highschool graduate than an ironworker who knows his trade and knows how long it takes to train a replacement. Though when the conditions are set up against workers, anyone can be taken advantage of.

[xtraxritical]

79. I have a BA in accounting and have always been exploited by employers.

First is the salary gimmick, no overtime is paid and long (weekend) hours are expected. Not to mention that for the last 50 years they've been pushing "get a business degree" and the market is flooded with graduates each year. Also the constantly rising tuition cost makes these graduates desperate to find anything to pay off staggering tuition loans. So as a worker nears retirement he is easily canned an replaced with younger, cheaper. The corporate overlords have a thousand ways to screw labor and unions are the only defense for laborers (wage slaves). VOTE A STRAIGHT DEMOCRATIC BALLOT!

[Starry Messenger]

54. That's why IT jobs never get sent overseas, amirite? nt

[JayhawkSD]

67. No, IT jobs don't get sent overseas

The corporations import people on H5B visas to work at lower wages and put the domestically educated, higher wage American IT workers out of work. It's called "exporting in place."

[jeff47]

71. That's why it's changing in IT

Your typical IT geek is massively libertarian. Thus anti-union.

That's greatly changing both as IT becomes less "geeky" and as IT workers get more screwed by management.

[Starry Messenger]

96. I agree, I've seen it happen among my friends in Silicon Valley in 20 years.

There's been a definite shift in political attitude.

[mrmpa]

50. Try to remember the time when bartenders, waitresses/waiters...........

Department Store clerks, Insurance salespeople, and tailors to mention a few were all union jobs.

[xtraxritical]

81. The time when a mother could stay home and raise kids while pop worked! 1950's / 60's

[obamanut2012]

87. And still are, in other countries

[WhoIsNumberNone]

10. Safeway has- or at least had- a union

In the 90s I had a job at Tower Records and there was a Safeway in the same shopping center. Their shelf-stockers earned about $3.50 more per hour to start than we did. Their cashiers earned almost double what the average Tower employee got.

[Bruce Wayne]

13. We don't have Safeways in Gotham. In any sense of the word.

And I'm not sure someone who does stocking at a grocery store is exactly comparable to someone stocking at a retail music store. Undoubtedly the employees at a union shop will (or at least should) make more than someone doing the same job at a non-union shop.

But that still avoids my original point, that the average union worker is going to be in a more highly skilled job than the average non union worker. It's not proof of union power if a lathe-operator or a longshoreman makes more money that a delivery driver or a cable installer.

[LiberalFighter]

22. The more that a worker is skilled the more likely they consider

themselves above belonging to a union. Yet if it is called an association they are fine with it. Especially if the dues are more like annual membership fees.

[xtraxritical]

82. I have that UnionYes jpg but I don't know how to get into my posts.

How do you do it? Ok, I figured it. Thanks any way, I'm a conservative killer too.

[TBF]

58. No, it is the collective bargaining.

Which is why the wealthy have worked so hard to make states right-to-work. Collectively all the wages go down when the unions are busted. This is not rocket science.

[INdemo]

84. Most unions have a training program

With apprentice entry level wage some times much more than ground level wages of non union.
The training programs are usually 4 years with the wage rate increasing at each year level.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. No, you think processing your mail

Requires that many skills? Look at the chart though, self explanatory why they want to break it up. It's the union stupid.

[felix_numinous]

6. Unions prevent workplaces being run like dictatorships

--like everywhere else, without representation our quality of life goes downhill fast.

Solidarity

[Logical]

7. I do not like unions saying people working in non-union shops are stupid or scabs.....

like the Ohio Honda plant. They are happy being non-union but union members treat them like they are scabs and idiots.

I think it is possible companies can treat employees good without a union.

[Brickbat]

15. Those companies "treat employees good" to keep the union out.

If the unions were all gone, those "nice" conditions would be gone in a hot second.

[Logical]

19. So non-union workers are stupid. I get it. And that is why many hate unions.

[jeff47]

27. Uh....no, there's nothing in that post saying non-union workers are stupid.

Just that existence of unions elsewhere force employers to be slightly nicer, so that their workers don't unionize.

[Brickbat]

44. Which is...exactly not what I said.

They're stupid if they think they get the wages and benefits they do out of the goodness of the company's heart or on their own merit without any consideration of the market force of a collectively bargained contract for the same work, though.

[whathehell]

33. Exactly.. Back in the day, I was doing temp office work in the HR dept. of an Ivy League University

One of the files I had to "keep" as part of my duties,

was the "Union Avoidance File".

Being a tad naive back then, I asked the supervisor "Why do you want to avoid unions"?

She was probably surprised at my innocence, and said, "More money and power for the university".

This was at the University of Pennsyvania, where they were paying full time professors with Master's Degrees

an average salary of $17,000 a year....Even back then, that was a PITTANCE...I believe they have unionized

since then, but I'm not sure.

[caseymoz]

16. Without a doubt, yes, but . . .

Even the lousiest dictatorships treated some people very well. So, knowing that, would you like the US with or without a Constitution?

I know, apples and oranges. I'm just agreeing, yes, it can happen that workers get treated well in a non-union shop. However, don't bet the house on it. By definition, you can't expect the best behavior from management all the time, or even most the time.

What happens when or if Honda changes management? Or management just has a change in heart for the worse? Honda is competing for workers in a market that was, by-and-large, unionized.

Management everywhere has a class interest in discrediting unions. The will put some effort into that. Just for that reason, there will always be model companies where workers are treated well, but for strange reason, the model never becomes general practice.

[Logical]

18. My BIL has worked at the Honda Plant for 20 years and LOVES his job....

and the company. And he is sick of union members calling him stupid and a scab.

Honda has provided bonuses many years and treats the employees very good.

And the workers there are sick on the UAW acting like they are too stupid to make their own decisions.

The Honda employees have fared pretty well i the downturn. That is not something to be embarrassed about.

[LiberalFighter]

26. That sounds like something a union buster would tell the employees.

It is counter productive to label a group that others are trying to organize when a certification vote is needed by the workers themselves.

[Logical]

30. So you think my BIL is making it up?

[LiberalFighter]

36. I think he was told that by someone with an axe to grind.

Either management, union buster, or an anti-union employee. I know how rumors are spread out on the factory floor.

[Bake]

64. Have you seen what the Rethugs have tried to do to unions in Wisconsin, Ohio, and Indiana?

And yet you come in here dissing organized labor?

I have one simple question for you: whose side are you on?

Oh ... one more: Why are you HERE?

Bake

[TBF]

69. Agree - I am so sick of the labor busting on this site. nt

[bayareaboy]

76. Absollutly and I don't think it will get any better ...

here or in the nation. Perhaps it is the less and less people being in barganing groups. Or just folks who can't chew gum and walk.

[TBF]

78. It will eventually get better but folks are making it hard by

working against their own interests.

Eventually conditions will be bad enough that many more will resist. I have no doubt about that.

[caseymoz]

92. What? How often does he encounter this? Really?

How many union auto plants are there in that town? Are you sure he's just not always imagining what UAW people must be saying about him?

If a union were ever busted at Honda, I could see there being resentment, but Honda never had a union, so "scab" is a term that should not even come to mind. Union workers are only 9 percent of the workforce, meaning they're used to being the minority, surrounded by non-union people.

I've worked both union and non-union. When I worked non-union, I never encountered what your BIL described. Now, maybe it happened to him sometime, and I can't imagine anybody not being tired of it after just once. Maybe it happened to a few acquaintances, one time each, that'll start rumors. I just can't picture this being common.

If there is another union plant in town, maybe he's not invited to the same parties as union people, and he probably feels that. Maybe these are combined with a few second-hand accounts that are a little exaggerated.

This sounds like the story of Vietnam vets being spit on, where there's no documented case of it ever happening. Yes, I question what your BIL says. You should, too. Perhaps his being sick about it is him being a hypochondriac about it?

[NNN0LHI]

93. Your BIL

Have you ever suggested to him to register at DU?

Would you say his political beliefs would fit in around here?

Does he post at any other political web sites that you are aware of?

Don

[whathehell]

34. Yes...As my spouse says, "It's the union or the THREAT of the union that keeps companies in line"

The union and/or the threat of the union are all that stands between us and a TOTAL loss

of a middle class. Without unions, we'd be getting the same wages that they pay workers

in third world countries...No right to bargain collectively?....Say hello to a dollar an hour wage.

[Mendocino]

83. Non-union in the USA

Maybe $10-12 an hour if you're lucky. More likely $9.

No or little benefits.

If you do get some bennies you will pay out the ass of your low wage, lowering that hourly rate to something like $5.

If you are a woman expect you will be paid even less, unless you agree to go out with the married boss for "a drink".

If you dare to complain, bye-bye.

[whathehell]

86. You are exactly right on target..

Even unionized waitress jobs are better,

I know because I worked both!

[SHRED]

25. if not being able to negotiate...

...a contact is acceptable to you and you want to have little recourse when a supervisor treats you bad our worse then by all means look for non union employment

[Logical]

29. There is no union employment in my field. And I have been at same company 25 years. And love it.

[Moosepoop]

31. Good for you and your BIL.

36 Reasons to Thank a Union (Even if You Don't Belong to One)

[socialist_n_TN]

37. That's great for y'all for now, but if unions are totally banned.........

-and make no mistake that IS the ultimate goal-you'll BOTH be working for half your wages within two years. If that long.

These companies do NOT (repeat: DO NOT) have your best interests at heart. Without unions to keep these companies honest, they WILL fuck you over in a heartbeat for profit. And since they own Congress, without unions, all those little perks like overtime pay, the 40 hour week, child labor laws, health and safety regulations, and a WHOLE plethora of other benefits paid for in BLOOD by our union ancestors would be gone too.

Think of it this way. Capitalism put it's BEST face forward when there was a Soviet Union because it was a nation that at least paid lip service to the working class and was in direct opposition to the capitalist system. When the USSR collapsed, what happened to capitalist societies like ours? We work longer, harder, and are more productive and yet our SHARE of the results of our labor HAS GONE DOWN 20% FROM THE 70s. That's the same principle about unions. Companies will do the working class right when there's a threat. Left to it's own devices, the capitalists will LITERALLY kill you for profit.

[Scruffy1]

73. You hit the nail on the head.

We are heading for the sewer in a hurry because of the power of propaganda by the capitalist media. Check out what the BMW plant pays in South Carolina where it is every hard to organize. They make luxury SUV's
that are mainly shipped back to Europe. We have become the low wage place to go. I have worked for forty six and have heard every bit of anti union claptrap there is. The AFL-CIO is not perfect, but the threat of unionization has been the only thing keeping the wages up in many shops, and it has nothing to do with skill level or company philosophy. Once the union threat is gone Honda or any company will pick your bones clean.
I speak from over forty years of experience working in union and non union shops.

[lunatica]

40. Thank unions for being treated well at your job.

Because though you don't belong to a union, your benefits, your workweek hours, your vacations, your sick leave and your holidays and your pay scale and your ability to sue your company to keep your job are all based on hard won union laws.

[Occulus]

49. Then you need to realize your position of longtime privilege

and stop talking about what unions do or do not do.

[meanit]

46. Union workers fight hard

for their wages and benefits. They have been locked out, fired, beaten and in some cases shot over the years by the corporations they were standing up to. Many union members know that non-union shops in the same business and area would be paying nothing and treating their employees like dirt if it were not for the unions.
It may not be right, but sometimes union members have a hard time swallowing the "company treats me good, I don't need no union" line when they feel they have paid the price for that "good company treatment", while in many instances some non-union people are cheering for the demise of the unions.

Can't completely blame union members for feeling that way, even though their anger may be misdirected at times.

[mac56]

53. I have always said: if companies don't want their employees to unionize -

Make unions unnecessary. Ensure that conditions are fair and consistent and reward quality work. Problem is, they don't.

And I don't know about the Ohio Honda plant, but a lot of foreign car manufacturers set up shop in the South because they were promised a union-free workforce. Plus about a zillion incentives of other types.

[TBF]

59. This is anti-union nonsense.

They are angry with the scabs because they work against collective bargaining and brings all workers' wages down. Blue collar workers know and appreciate that unions aren't perfect but they are all that we have (or "had" rather - with the intense union bashing we've had over the past 30 years).

Define "good".

[xchrom]

9. Du rec. Nt

[EC]

11. I only wish

the repub idiots (not the corp guys, the regular folk) already know this. Their reaction isn't to say "hey, why don't we get a union", it's " hey, they're breaking the company's back" They are jealous and instead of joining they'd rather tear it down.


They would also say, that's why so many company's have gone overseas...they are really brainwashed and braindead. One that I know was complaining about the unions breaking the backs of the auto industry and that we should compete with China and Mexico. I asked how does one compete with a dollar twenty an hour? Is that what he wanted the wages to go to?

[HiPointDem]

12. A lot of people would rather make workers "equal" by killing unions. Doing a good job of it, too.

[abelenkpe]

14. K & R nt

[Starry Messenger]

17. k&r

[SHRED]

20. thanks...k and r

[Leopolds Ghost]

21. I'm more interested in the graphic in the background. What does that signify?

Different policies towards unions? Different amounts of union participation? I note that the South is entirely blank. Could this be a deep-rooted cultural thing -- hostility towards urban labor dating back to the pre-left era, i.e. Civil War?

[spanone]

24. k&r...

[Travis_0004]

28. Stats 101: Causation does not equal correlation

As many others have pointed out, Union members are often higher trained than a lot of non union employees. I would expect a professional electrician to make more than a cashier. They have skills and training that makes them more valuable.

There are good unions, and there are bad unions. There are good non union shops, and bad non union shops.

And FYI, my first job was union, and it was minimum wage, so there are certainly some union shops that don't pay well. (So technically after union fees, I didn't even make minimum wage)

[Major Hogwash]

35. Working with a union is much safer, also.

Because they actually spend money to keep the equipment in working order because they know injured workers are more expensive than maintaining the equipment.

I wished I was in one now.

[Fla_Democrat]

38. One, one, on one-one

solidarity, brothers.

[lunatica]

39. And that's why they hate us.

Because we are better off because of unions. I'm a proud union member.

[Edweird]

41. Plus I get free insurance and NEAP/NEBF (retirement) contributions. It's awesome.

Rat ( non-union) pay looks almost comparable until you factor in the the fact that they have to pay for their insurance and retirement.

[rustydog]

43. If not for the FEAR of unions, non union wage earners would make a whole lot less

You name it, unions can be credited with it: 5 day work week, overtime, holiday pay, sick pay, etc.

[mmonk]

45. We need a people's union for everyone as well in right to work for less states.

If millions of people just decided to do so, what a difference that would make.

[pasto76]

48. ive been working on Ft Carson for over 2 years now, unions here set the prevailing wages

guys L-O-V-E-L-O-V-E-L-O-V-E coming onto post to work, since they are basically making DOUBLE what they usually get. My total package is about $34; $24 on the check, the rest goes into annuity, retirement, health insurance all that stuff. So when a non union contractor doesnt pay benefits, they have to pay that prevailing wage on the check. Means non union ironworkers on post are making typically $15 more on the check. That's a hell of a raise.

[Zalatix]

51. Americans want to pull down union workers wages and RAISE CEO wages.

That's how America rolls, and why we have so many damned Republicans.

[TBF]

60. Right and we see how that is working out for folks -

biggest gap ever between rich and poor.

[lovuian]

52. Go Unions

You rock

[SunSeeker]

56. Live better. Work Union.

[Blecht]

57. But the evidence right here in some of the responses shows it's an uphill battle

Too many people are busy being offended about being called stupid when they do things that are against their self-interest -- they're cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

"Hey! That union guy called me stupid for being against unions when I object to paying $600 a year in union dues. I don't care that he makes $58000 compared to my $45000! No way I'm giving those dirty union people $600 of my hard-earned pay!"

And they wonder why people call them stupid.

[TBF]

61. It didn't use to be -

Back in the 1920s, 30s the unions got very strong (with the help of the socialist/communist organizing - which of course was purged for generations with the McCarthyism of the 1950s). We have a lot of rebuilding to do.

[Javaman]

62. I'm always amused by people, working people, who rail against Unions.

it's as if they don't wish for a better life.

I will never get that.

Member of the local 600.

[elias7]

63. The OP is wrong. That's exactly why people hate unions

The complaint is that unions cost businesses too much money and have consequently contributed to economic woes.

The second problem is that the graph is meaningless as it doesn't tell you if it is a apple-apple comparison or an apple-orange comparison...

[newspeak]

68. huh? Many corporations are seeing record breaking profits

what are you talking about? My hubby's company, which he represented management for his area-his employees had voted not to join the union, while the california offices were union. Very repug, right to work state. Well, the employees actually thought that they'd be rewarded by the company going non-union. Instead, the company screwed the non-union employees. They voted for union after that.

I just want to know if you have actually read any history on labor struggles in this country. How miners safety to the owners was not even a consideration. How miners had to deal with the company store, giving the owners even more power over the workers while further increasing their profits on the backs of labor. How goons working for companies such as pinkertons gladly shot women, children, workers when it got so bad that the workers rebelled.

Or, how about the sweatshops, working people, including children, in unsafe conditions for real slave wages. And conning workers, like the old miserly bat who promised women they could own their own sewing machine by paying for it out of their meager pay, then when it was almost paid for, she'd fire the woman.

But, oh, those poor corporations are suffering. Really? Those corporations have received more benefits from our government, than the average struggling american. Many corporations have increased their profits over twenty percent, while not increasing workers' pay. And the pay hasn't kept up to those profits for years. So, please don't tell me about the poor corporations. Most are doing just fine.

[elias7]

72. You make a great argument for unions

And yes, I know all about the history of labor in this country, and I have been pro-union ever since I was a kid watching my father (high school teacher) picketing every few years outside of the Cleveland Heights High School for workers rights.

I think you mistook my opinion as to why many people are anti-union now for my opinion on unions in general. When I hear people badmouth unions, I always engage them in conversation, and raise points not unlike those you have raised. Their responses generally revolve around the idea that companies and corporations are in financial difficulties because of the "unreasonable" demands of unions, making them less competitive than non-union corps.

Anti-union talk is Koch Brother/Fox News/GOP talking points that is thorough misinformation and as you rightly point out, completely ignores the history of labor and the necessity of union formation in this country...which is why the workers in your husband's company voted against the union in the first place: they thought if it benefitted the company, then they would be rewarded as well.

Welcome to corporate Amerika

[newspeak]

74. sorry for the misinterpretation

yeah, corporate media has helped catapult the anti-labor BS, mainly because, well they're corporations with other vested business interests. I wish people would realize that the media actually has aided in the division in this country.

I just love how media comes out with articles about civil workers making too much, or auto workers making too much. They hardly go after the CEOs who make more here than in any other industrialized nation. And, when one complains about how much a laborer is making; I always tell them "good for them, I wish more americans could make that instead of being screwed." It's like the media wants others who are working for shitty wages to envy those who make good wages; instead of working for all to have decent wages.

[elias7]

75. I agree exactly

You say: "It's like the media wants others who are working for shitty wages to envy those who make good wages; instead of working for all to have decent wages." Although I don't think its the media that wants this necessarily, someone wants it framed this way, and to hear so many exploited workers resenting those who are non-exploited just boggles the mind.

GOP-speak turns everything on its head

[TBF]

80. That's complete BS -

CEO's "cost businesses too much money" - it is not the working folks who are barely pulling minimum wage these days. How can you possibly be a democrat with that attitude?

[schlagehundenancee]

65. In todays news American Airlines is gettting rid of non-union employees and cutting non-union

workers retirement just to name a few things they are doing to the non-union work force.

So hows that right to work workingout for all you non-union workers?

[Myrina]

66. And the wingers will jump on it ...

... like I've seen in my local op ed's a thousand times ... "if it weren't for those greedy corrupt unions, companies wouldn't have to outsource and Made In The USA stuff would be less expensive and more reliable".

Their ability to deny the obvious and totally mangle logic never fails.

[MatthewStLouis]

70. But what about my right to work for less?! My right to work more jobs for less?!

Besides, corporations are benevolent beings who only have my best interests at heart.

[libodem]

91. You could move to Idaho

And work, 3 jobs, the way Dubbya envisioned, the America, he designed with his new Great Depression, he left as his legacy. The legacy Mittster, wants to continue.

If we don't unionize America again, we'll all have to join Glenn Beck's New Black Panthers, for a power base. Kidding. I might join, any way. Goes for the phone book.

[Kingofalldems]

77. As has been said before, if repubs get their way

and outlaw unions, everyone's wages will drop like a stone.

[Old Guy and his pipe]

88. Unions are find except.......

Unions are fine and good except when the membership gets apathetic allowing the unions governing body to become a labor mafia.

Than unions are bad.....very bad.

[Old Guy and his pipe]

89. Unions are fine except.......

Unions are fine and good except when the membership gets apathetic allowing the unions governing body to become a labor mafia.

Than unions are bad.....very bad.

[libodem]

90. Well, now I see why the GOP is so opposed

It lifts up the people. Who hates 'the people', the common man, and only loves the corporation, the GOP.

[malaise]

95. Solidarity Forever