"Recently converted to Islam"...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

Used to describe a fundamentalist nut who shoots up a Parliament.

See: Born again Christian.

[Oktober]

1. ?

[Electric Monk]

2. context

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014924949

and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5701798

[Oktober]

3. Yeah...

I get the context... I'm just not sure what OP is trying to say...

Maybe it's just early...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

4. Ever meet a "Born Again" type?

They often give Christianity a bad name because they know NOTHING about the religion.

[leftynyc]

6. Yes, they can be obnoxious

but that's a far cry from waging jihad against your country. I don't that comparison is fair.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

12. Ever hear the phrase, "At war with the secular world"?

[leftynyc]

15. Yes

What does that have to do with anything?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

19. How does that fit with "love thy neighbor"?

[leftynyc]

21. Why does every story

that concerns Islam get turned into a (false) comparison to Christianity? Are any of these "warriors" cutting off people's heads? Throwing acid at women (just happened in Iran), stoning women, waging whatever the Christian version of jihad is? All threads like this does is prove Bill Maher was absolutely right when he claimed the left has a problem facing up to the issues plaguing Islam right now.

[get the red out]

26. Thank you

You are absolutely correct!

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[leftynyc]

31. I decided about a month ago

I was sick and tired of that bullshit and would call it out every single time I saw it BTW - your tagline is awesome.

[get the red out]

43. Thanks!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. Go ahead and ascribe all of that to Muhammad Ali.

[leftynyc]

32. All of what?

The OP was about recently converted Muslims who are doing violence. You WANT to make it about something else for the very reasons Bill Maher talked about on his show. It's annoying and frankly, pretty pathetic that so called liberals can't discuss the topic without the false equivalence including Christian bashing.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. I did the OP and it was about recent converts to Islam know NOTHING about Islam...

Just as many "born agains" know NOTHING about Christianity.

They both THINK they do though.

Hell,...they'll tell you all about it. They'll also tell you about how it's everyone else out there that's ignorant.

[Oktober]

52. They don't understand it as you think you understand it...

I hate to break it to you but there is no "correct" answer...

That's what religion is... following your personal interpretation of whatever deity you happen to believe is in charge of your life.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

54. In some cases it's also the deity you feel is in charge of the entire world....

It's like when someone says, "Why are there harbors?" and when you say it's just they way the land is shaped and they claim it was CREATED that way by God. They'll ask, "Why are there sharks?" and they will claim God put ALL animals here just for us to use as we see fit.

These people live in a mythical realm where you shouldn't drink or smoke or cuss or have sex or sing or dance because there's a dominant father figure watching them at all times that will punish them if they have fun and everyone else is supposed to be as miserable as them and they will ENFORCE God's Law as His Instrument here on Earth.

[snooper2]

68. again, read your holy books (know your mythology as I like to say :) )

Matthew

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17
Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19
"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12
Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21
Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32
Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21



Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7
Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor. 2:10
If you try to compose a surah that is better than those in the Quran, and then fail, Allah will burn you forever if you in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24
Allah will shed human blood while angels praise him in heaven. (The angels question why Allah has to kill people; Allah says they'd understand if they knew everything like he does.) 2:30
They who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein." 2:39
There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48
Allah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50
"Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81
Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

[Spitfire of ATJ]

70. Major party pooper.

[Fawke Em]

34. Why is his religion even mentioned at all.

If he were a Christian, we'd just say he had mental issues.

[leftynyc]

35. Uh - no

When someone is fighting for jihad that actually means something. It means their version of that religion has become perverted beyond all reason. Like I said earlier (perhaps not on this thread), when someone does murder in the name of Jesus, everyone should bring that point out also. What happens here on DU (and many left blogs) is any story about Islam is immediately discounted by virtue of how it's ignored in favor of some non-relevant story about Christianity. Bill Maher was right.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

40. This guy claimed he was being chased by demons....

That's something you could hear from a Buddhist.

[Fawke Em]

51. Uh.. yeah.

Brainwashed.

I had more to say about you, but I'd be removed.

[Oktober]

55. Hate to break it to you...

It means their version of that religion has become perverted beyond all reason.

Different interpretations of "Benevolent Sky Dad who might scold me if I do wrong" vs "Angry sky dad who demands blood and sacrifice" are equally as legitimate and the idea that there is a "real" version that the nutjobs have gotten away from is laughable.

Both exist on a spectrum of Islam, Christianity.. whatever... Those all intersect as well...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

39. He did....

Religion.

[eridani]

49. The thing that is different aout Islam is that--

--Islamic societies have extremely weak secular society countervailing forces. Fundie Christians live in societies where there is a lot of pushback from a powerful secular culture. They'd be as nasty as Islamists if they could, but the rest of society won't let them.

[leftynyc]

50. Why do you think that is?

What's different about Muslims that the secular portion of their societies have so little power? And actually, no, in the US the evangelicals have to not only deal with us secular people, they also have to accept the limitations placed on them by our constitution. It truly warmed my heart reading that story about the Iranians taking to the streets - men and women, all age groups - to protest against those acid throwing cretins. More of that would be wonderful.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

57. But there is. The Ba'ath Party is an example of a secular choice....

You will remember them as the ones the Bush Administration called "Nazis".

Saddam was a Ba'athist. He had a Christian on his Cabinet. They're the Arab Socialist Party and committed the ultimate crime of thinking it was the job of government to provide for the people things like food and shelter and medical care. Bremmer was applauded to find out the power grid in Iraq was unmetered. People were getting electricity FOR FREE.

Many Arab countries still provide the "daily bread" to their population.

Americans can't picture someone from that part of the world getting up with the alarm clock, having a coffee and getting in a car they bought to go to a job and then to come back home to a wife and kids and they have ZERO interest in participating in religion appart from calling themselves "Muslim" just like people here call themselves "Christian" when they don't even know where the nearest church is from their house.

[leftynyc]

60. Are you really trying

to pretend living under the Ba'athists in Iraq was rainbows and unicorns? Yes, they were secular (except when they weren't) but Iraq was a brutal dictatorship and sadaam and his sons were pathological and dangerous people. That doesn't mean I support the Iraq war - I didn't but that wasn't because I didn't think Iraq was a paradise. I just didn't think it was worth even one American life. Don't even try and pretend things were awesome under the secular sadaam.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

61. A lot of that was propaganda....

This is from a decade ago:

[leftynyc]

63. Are you seriously

trying to say sadaam wasn't a brutal dictator? That everything was rainbows and unicorns under his (and his cretin sons)? Is that really your claim?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

64. No, I'm saying he was OUR brutal dictator,...until he crossed us.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Born again Christians are instructed to be "in the world but not of it"

They aren't instructed to wage physical war against it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. Some people don't get the difference....

A lot just use their piety to trash others.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I had a lot of exposure to Southern Baptism as a youth

There is much that I still embrace and there is much that I reject.


What I got out of my exposure was to be nice to people, conduct your affairs in a exemplary manner, and look out for those less fortunate...

I ignored or must have ignored the condemnation. I embrace a gospel of love, not of condemnation.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

36. In the South the Right infiltrated the Church....

They blended love of Reagan and guns into hatred for blacks and Liberals and blacks and Catholics and blacks and Jews.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Ole Jimmy Carter was a born again Christian

He deserves a lot of praise or blame, depending on your perspective I guess, for bringing that appellation to prominence.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

25. Look how many Right Wing Christians trash him too....

They have this image of Jesus.

[snooper2]

67. No, they give Christianity a bad name because they actually follow their holy book

Just like Fundie ISIS assholes literally follow their holy book -

Read those holy books once in a while, some evil shit in there (yes in the new testament not just the old)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

69. Love the part about Joshua crossing the river Jordan and slaughtering EVERYONE....

He had a hell of a fundraising incentive too...

18 Joshua had his family come forward man by man, and Achan son of Carmi, the son of Zimri, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, was taken. 19 Then Joshua said to Achan, "My son, give glory to the LORD, the God of Israel, and give him the praise. Tell me what you have done; do not hide it from me." 20 Achan replied, "It is true! I have sinned against the LORD, the God of Israel. This is what I have done: 21 When I saw in the plunder a beautiful robe from Babylonia, two hundred shekels of silver and a wedge of gold weighing fifty shekels, I coveted them and took them. They are hidden in the ground inside my tent, with the silver underneath." 22 So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and there it was, hidden in his tent, with the silver underneath. 23 They took the things from the tent, brought them to Joshua and all the Israelites and spread them out before the LORD. 24 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. 25 Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today." Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them.

[Warpy]

5. Maybe that new converts to anything go wacky for a while

Think about new nonsmokers, new Mormons, people in the first 2 years of AA (which is why they tell you not to make any big decisions), some new Christian sect members. "Recently converted to Islam" is no different.

I will freely admit that as a new atheist when I was 10, I was pretty unpleasant to the Baptists I outquoted, even if it was in self defense. I got over it when I got over the anger.

[Yupster]

22. The old expression is

"He had the zeal of the converted."

[Spitfire of ATJ]

46. Also the courage of his ignorance.

[friendly_iconoclast]

47. Also: "The converts always sing the loudest"

[malaise]

7. He looks like any white militia goon

and I did have the same thought.
Remember it wasn't terrorism when those 20 plus children and their teachers were slaughtered - that was just someone with mental issues.

[maced666]

8. White goon?

You mean you didn't think Islam or terrorism?! That's okay! We wait for slow people around here to catch up. Come along!

[malaise]

9. We wait for slow people around here to catch up. Come along!

And then you showed up.

[Nye Bevan]

27. 6-1 to leave this, and justifiably so. (nt)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. Lanza wasn't ideologically motivated.

And no one, despite your crass race baiting, has any problem calling terrorism what it is when it was McVeigh, Nichols, Kaczynski, Rudolph, etc.

[linuxman]

13. I'm a little slow

could you please break down for me what Adam Lanza's ideological motivations were?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

48. Lack of empathy is very Right Wing.

[malaise]

58. This guy had both mental and criminal issues so why is this one terorism?

Because he's a recent convert? It's all gun terror. Terrorism is a stupid amorphous concept - but it is very convenient for those with agendas.
Lanza was seeking some sort of revenge against the school. So he had mental issues. I'd like to imagine that many folks in the Middle East also have mental issues after what we did to their countries. Our own military have problems during and after these illegal wars.

Many of the attacks against Westerners in the Middle East are from people who have watched their countries bombed to the dark ages and their citizens slaughtered by Westerners in illegal wars.

If the resistance against the Germans in WW2 was valid then do we not expect resistance now or is whatever we defend always right. People do not lie down and die when they are attacked - they invariably fight back. Every action has a reaction. We started this mess. What did you expect -garlands of flowers.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

18. "He looks like any white militia goon"

Like Rick Scott?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. As you say, it wasn't terrorism.

Saying something in an implicitly mocking tone doesn't mean it isn't true.

[cali]

56. and he wasn't. sorry, malaise. He was an Islamic convert. there is no frickin' doubt about that.

and this guy evidently was mentally ill.

I don't get your denial of reality- something I see you do constantly. Why? Because it doesn't fit with your perspective, your world view? That's just a scary way of thinking, in my book- and something I see right wingers do a lot of. don't join them in that.

[Baclava]

11. Don't revoke their passports - ship them to Syria to join ISIS and we'll destroy them over there

two problems solved - because these wannabe jihadists wouldn't last a minute

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I was "born again" at fourteen years old.

I was never filled with a desire to go out and do harm.


Your analogy to put it nicely is inapt.

[Nye Bevan]

24. President Obama has described himself as a born again Christian.

GG:
Did you actually go up for an altar call?

OBAMA:
Yes. Absolutely.
It was a daytime service, during a daytime service. And it was a powerful moment. Because, ti was powerful for me because it not only confirmed my faith, it not only gave shape to my faith, but I think, also, allowed me to connect the work I had been pursuing with my faith.

GG:
How long ago?

OBAMA:
16, 17 years ago
1987 or 88

GG:
So you got yourself born again?

OBAMA:
Yeah, although I don’t, I retain from my childhood and my experiences growing up a suspicion of dogma. And I’m not somebody who is always comfortable with language that implies I’ve got a monopoly on the truth, or that my faith is automatically transferable to others.

I’m a big believer in tolerance. I think that religion at it’s best comes with a big dose of doubt. I’m suspicious of too much certainty in the pursuit of understanding just because I think people are limited in their understanding.

I think that, particularly as somebody who’s now in the public realm and is a student of what brings people together and what drives them apart, there’s an enormous amount of damage done around the world in the name of religion and certainty.

http://cathleenfalsani.com/obama-on-faith-the-exclusive-interview/

[hrmjustin]

30. Born again Christian and recently converted to Islam should not be considered code words

but for some they are and that is sad.

It is sad when people do evil in the name of God and our religions.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

44. ESPECIALLY when the person is using that religion to justify their particular brand of crazy....

If those types actually TALKED to a priest, minister, shaman, imam or rabbi they would be told they have it all wrong.

[hrmjustin]

45. It is all very sad!

[Ykcutnek]

33. I'm sure it had nothing to do with his actions.

[KamaAina]

37. Um, no.

Nearly all born-again Christians were raised in some form of Christianity, then were "slain in the spirit".

[Spitfire of ATJ]

41. And some call themselves that who think watching a TV preacher is the same as going to church.

[KamaAina]

42. It isn't?

[malaise]

53. But remember

only one is a terrorist

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. Figures you'd get it...

[Marrah_G]

62. Usually people are very "enthusiastic" when first converting to a religion

They tend to calm down over time.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

65. Assuming they have contact with reality.

[Marrah_G]

66. And even moreso when they don't have contact with reality