To All the A**holes who are Insulting the Flying Ebola Nurse: Shut Your F***ing Faces.

[riqster]

http://bluntandcranky.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/to-all-the-aholes-who-are-insulting-the-flying-ebola-nurse-shut-your-fing-faces/

I haven't seen this type of tripe on DU as yet, but have heard it and seen it elsewhere. Source info at the link.

Seriously, shut the f***ing f*** up, you stupid f***ing f***ers. That woman put her life on the line, played by the rules, was lied to by her employer and our government, and you s***sacks are insulting HER??? Jesus f*** ing Christ on a gurney, what a**holes you are.

How about blaming Thomas Eric Duncan, who lied about having contact with Ebola on his travel documents? He put hundreds of people at risk, ferchrissakes. Had he not lied, none of this would have happened.

How about blaming the numbnuts and nimrods at Texas Health South, who first discharged Mr. Duncan, and then made their staff care for him without proper protective gear for TWO F***ING DAYS, thus exposing dozens more people to Ebola?

Better yet, Blame the f***ing CDC for lying about hospitals being ready, fumbling the ball repeatedly, and then allowing Ms. Vinson to fly, after she did the right thing and called them to be sure it was OK?

Come on. Amber Vinson is the ONLY person in this mess who is NOT to blame. But you s*** on her and give the guilty parties a pass. Shut it, until you get enough brain cells to be able to say something other than stupid f***ing s***.

[merrily]

1. I agree in spirit.

I've been in intensive care and I love nurses to bits.

In general, they are caring to an extreme and as conscientious as hell about keeping people as safe and healthy as they can. The demands on them are huge and they are usually greatly overworked--and I get my inpatient care at Massachusetts General, considered one of the best hospitals on the planet. I can only imagine how they get run ragged at less high profile hospitals.

[LawDeeDah]

37. Nurses work very hard and they often take the brunt of mistakes

made by their superiors. They deserve our respect and gratitude, all the time - not only when it's easy.

[merrily]

48. If I saw something to blame for, I probably would. I don't see it, though.

As a thread by fumesucker says kiss up, kick down. In this case, hospitals, doctors, and others are kicking down. I get their motivation. It's cya re: liabiity. I don't get the motivation at DU, though. Or even what satisfaction it brings any DUer to blame the nurses.

[LawDeeDah]

75. kiss up, kick down - doesn't that explain so much.

I have not heard that before but will remember it forever now.

It applies to so many things.

[merrily]

83. Yep. It sure does. Thank you, fumesucker!

[DhhD]

79. Ms. Vinson is a Registered Nurse with either a Bachelor of Science and an Associate Degree in

Nursing or a BS in Nursing. Having studied Biology, Microbiology classes and Health and Hygiene classes, she knew better than to travel, in my opinion. Its like malpractice, in my opinion. She knew she could be a walking Test Tube of Virus. What if she had been injured or killed in an auto accident on her way to and from the airports in Ohio or Texas? Her blood could have traveled to many even though she was not symptomatic.

[riqster]

87. Are you a holder of the same credentials?

[merrily]

89. She was sick and likely terrified, so she asked the supposed government experts

and did what they told her she could do.

I, for one, have been too ill to think straight, even without fear of ebola.

I am not going to fault her without knowing all the facts. For one thing, I doubt she majored in the ins and outs of ebola.

Even if I knew all the facts, I don't know what good can possibly comes from blaming her. The CDC has been responsible for one fuck up after another in this and I'm paying their salaries and expenses, not hers. For just one thing, they put Dr. Snyderman on "voluntary quarantine," knowing she'd been exposed. Being a member of the entitled class, she felt free to go to a restaurant anyway. I don't that she would have done that if she had been on quarantine, sans the "voluntary." They put Duncan's family on quarantine, knowing they'd been exposed. Why not her? Because she's on TV?

Meanwhile, I don't know all the facts about the nurse who traveled and neither do you. She knew enough to ask supposed experts and did what she was told she could do. It's on them, period.

[wcollar]

107. After she flew to Ohio.

There is no way a reasonable person who had been exposed to Ebola as she was would think it's fine
to hop an airplane and fly halfway across the country. She did, and THEN she called the CDC before flying back. Lets try for a modicum of personal responsibility here.

[merrily]

118. Your own post disproves "There is no way a reasonable person who had been exposed to ebola....

would think it's fine." For one thing, she may be a reasonable person and she thought so. For another thing, the supposed expert at the CDC, who presumably was not sick or personally terrified, told her she could fly.

I don't know why she did not call before her first flight, but did call before flying back, do you?

I don't see the point in going around in circles on this. Unless I know all the facts, I am not prepared to blame her. Dr. Snyderman, on the other hand, did not bother to check with CDC before she decided she wanted restaurant soup enough to break "voluntary" quarantine." So far, I've seen lots of blame on nurses, but not so much on Dr. Snyderman.

[merrily]

157. PS, trying for personal responsibility is something one does about his or her own behavior.

And I do that. When it comes to the behavior of others, though, it's not trying for personal responsibility but being judgmental and, in this case, without knowing all of the facts and circumstances. I try not to do that.

[uponit7771]

116. She was not sick, no signs of anything wrong with her ... 99.5 is a normal tempreature for a woman

... and she took the extra step of calling.

The focus should be on the officials and not the nurse

[merrily]

130. I agree about the blame, but 99.5 may not be normal for her.

My blood pressure and my temperature both tend to run low, which is fortunate for me. It's very unusual for me to hit 98.6. (And I've been hospitalized enough times, and for long enough, to know that. They took my temp and pressure around the clock, even if they had to wake me.)

By the time I hit 99.5, I am feeling bad--and that is not because I take my temp often or before I start feeling bad. I have rebooked flights at that temp, not because I feared contaminating others, or even thought that clearly, but because I could not function well myself.

Again, though, I agree that the focus should be on the CDC. I have no idea what motivates anyone to say otherwise.

[uponit7771]

133. According to webmd it's normal for temp to go up and down 1deg... 98.6 is average not static number

http://www.webmd.com/first-aid/body-temperature

What is normal body temperature?

Most people think of a "normal" body temperature as an oral temperature of 98.6 °F (37 °C). This is an average of normal body temperatures. Your temperature may actually be 1°F (0.6°C) or more above or below 98.6 °F (37 °C). Also, your normal body temperature changes by as much as 1°F (0.6°C) throughout the day, depending on how active you are and the time of day. Body temperature is very sensitive to hormone levels and may be higher or lower when a woman is ovulating or having her menstrual period.

[merrily]

146. Again, my own experience is very different. What counts for purposes of this thread is what

is normal for her and I don't think we know that. I don't think we know a lot of facts that we should know before we judge her and I don't know what motivates any DUer to judge her to begin with.

[KingCharlemagne]

140. Frieden's got to go, else the buck stops at President Obama's desk. Sorry, that's how it goes

in politics.

I give Frieden another 48 hours before he decides to spend "more time with his family."

[treestar]

163. She's not going to spread it to anyone

because you don't until you have symptoms. They were right, she could fly. The rest is BS.

[KingCharlemagne]

177. I largely agree with you. Here's the problem as I see it. Frieden's first response

was to throw Nurse Vinson under the bus by saying 'she shouldn't have flown." Then it emerged that one of Frieden's own staff gave her clearance to fly.

Left hand meet right hand.

Frieden's got to go.

[Ms. Toad]

232. By 99.5 I know I am sick.

And even if she didn't, she'd been monitoring her temperature a couple of times a day for a couple of weeks. She knows her body's temperature pattern. The fact that she called and asked about flying with a temp of 99.5 tells me she knew this was not normal for her - even if she doesn't have the internal sensory perceptions to reach that conclusion without a thermometer.

Yes, the officials bear the lion's share of the blame - but she is not blameless. She has had medical training - more than I have, and my training (multiple iterations of universal precaution training) tells me I should not be getting in a closed box in close proximity with 100+ people, sitting nearly on top of at least one - possibly 2 others. Passing hospitality items back and forth across the row - likely including some contaminated with my saliva.

She should have taken the common sense extra step of staying put in Texas - and even more so once she started to run a low grade fever.

[ZombieHorde]

98. She followed the advice of medical professionals.

That is what nurses do. I know a lot of nurses. They follow procedures.

[Dorian Gray]

114. Yep

The CDC should have told her not to travel. They should have come to her, administered tests, then taken her to where she needs to go. Right now, I blame them. They are the "authority" on the matter.... though their authority seems to be leading people down the wrong path.

[uponit7771]

135. EXACTLY! The CDC should be giving test RIGHT NOW to everyone who was in her situation

...when it comes to Duncan if they ERALLY want to make sure.

[Tweedy]

254. The test does not work right away

Testing right away would be great. It just does not work. Apparently, the navy is working on a test that will detect Ebola in its early stages. Right now, the test works only after the virus has grown in the body.

[wcollar]

101. Exactly

Yes, the higher ups at the hospital screwed up. So did the CDC. But she should have known better than to travel. NO EXCUSE.

[MontyPow]

123. Where are all the Ebola infected passengers on Duncan's flight?

Oh yeah, there aren't any. As for the traveling nurse, she was not exhibiting any symptoms that would have excluded her from traveling.

But now that we know she has travelled, wake me up when her fellow passengers start appearing in hospitals with Ebola.

[Crunchy Frog]

126. So what is the CDC's excuse.

I guess they're not expected to know as much as a RN.

Is it your suggestion that people with possible Ebola exposure shouldn't even be allowed to ride in cars?

Anyway, nice example of the "kiss up kick down" philosophy.

[uponit7771]

207. +1

[Octafish]

2. Thank you, riqster! Our socialist friends put it well...''Ebola in America''

Ebola in America

Andre Damon
WSWS.org, 16 October 2014

Every new development in the Ebola outbreak in the United States further exposes the incompetent, indifferent and irresponsible character of the official US response to what the World Health Organization has called “unquestionably the most severe acute public health emergency in modern times.”

On Wednesday, US officials announced that a second nurse at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital involved in treating deceased Ebola patient Thomas Eric Duncan had tested positive for the disease. She had been allowed to fly on a commercial aircraft twice, from Dallas to Cleveland and back, after having been exposed to the disease. She subsequently reported having a fever during her return flight.

On Tuesday, National Nurses United, the largest nurses’ union in the US, revealed that nurses at the hospital had been instructed by administrators to provide care for Duncan, a native of Liberia, with part of their faces and necks exposed. They were told to compensate for their inadequate protective equipment by wrapping medical tape around their exposed skin.

Despite nurses' protests, Duncan was left for hours in a common waiting area with other patients, potentially infecting them. His lab specimens traveled unprotected throughout the hospital's tube system, potentially contaminating the entire system. Nurses forced to treat Duncan with inadequate protective garments were then told to carry out their normal hospital duties, visiting and potentially infecting other patients.

SNIP...

Earlier this week, World Health Organization Director-General Dr. Margaret Chan explained the failure to develop an Ebola vaccine, saying, “a profit-driven industry does not invest in products for markets that cannot pay.”

CONTINUED...

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/10/16/pers-o16.html

[KingCharlemagne]

10. Bravo! I tend to look somewhat askance at the Trotskyist WSWS but on this their

criticisms are spot-on and quite a propos.

[Stonepounder]

46. But, but, but .... we gotta make a profit!

US Healthcare is going down the tubes because of its profit-driven approach to medicine. When I was a child, our family doctor (now known as your 'primary care physician') worked out of a two doctor office - he, Dr. Bob and his father, Dr. Link. When I was sick, they made house calls. Now we have to drive 10 miles to visit our PCP, who for anything more than a flu shot, a cold, or a case of hives is pretty much useless. For anything more, we have to self-refer to a specialist. For a visit to our PCP, our co-pay is $35 and for a specialist it is $50. (Note, this is on a 'good' Medicare Advantage program).

Forty years ago my wife worked in a Senior Clerk position for a large insurance company and made $12.00/hr. Today my daughter works as a Physician's Assistant, able to draw blood, take vitals, do a history, deal with insurance companies, authorize refills of most prescriptions, dress wounds, etc. She makes the munificent wage of $15.00/hr. Try raising three kids as a single mother on $15.00/hr. (And before any trolls want to snipe at her for being a single mom, she's a widow not a 'easy woman').

Professional salaries of doctors, nurses, aids, PA's etc are either going down or stagnating. Doctors now work for medical 'companies' and have goals for how many patients they see. Normal appointments are typically scheduled for 15 minutes of 'face time' with the doctor and usually its more like 5-10 minutes.

The family doctor of my childhood knew us, knew our family, and knew our medical histories. The PCP of today is lucky if he can glance at our medical records before he walks into see us.

And still Congress cuts funding for the CDC, hospitals cut staff, doctors work more hours for the same pay, patient care suffers, and insurance companies rake in billions. Oh, and some insurance CEO's mastermind schemes to rip off the government by billing Medicare and Medicaid for tests and procedures never done, and then get themselves elected Governor.

And we wonder why things like Ebola happen here.

[riqster]

61. Nice post! Oughta be an OP.

[merrily]

233. +1

We become less and less of a first world country by the year, or so it seems. We are still a long way from it, so I hope we reverse that direction.

[lunasun]

253. + 1

[Sheldon Cooper]

3. I'm not going to blame Amber Vinson solely, but I really have to question her judgement.

If you are an RN, and you know that you have cared for an ebola patient who subsequently died, and you develop a fever during the incubation period, why on earth would you even consider getting on an airplane and flying anywhere? WHY?? I'm a layperson and I wouldn't dream of doing that. She is an educated professional. I understand she went to Ohio to plan a wedding, which, while important, is hardly a matter of life and death and could have certainly waited another week or two until the incubation period ran out.

The CDC undoubtedly dropped the ball in a huge way here, but honestly, why would she even think about traveling? She could have called God Himself for permission and I still wouldn't understand WTF she was thinking.

[littlemissmartypants]

6. You would have to ask her.

I could joke and say it was the fever talking but this is a serious problem deserving of my comprehensive thoughtful consideration.

Only she has the answer you are looking for here.

~ Lmsp 🌻

[Sheldon Cooper]

17. Maybe it really is denial. I don't know.

[littlemissmartypants]

18. I can say that from my experience we

Rarely make good decisions based on one determining factor.

[Chico Man]

56. Cognitive dissonance

That's my guess.

[Sheldon Cooper]

66. Could well be. It makes as much sense as anything else.

[uppityperson]

76. She had the fever on the flight home, why did she fly there in the first place?

I will not blame her for getting sick, sounds like she is a good nurse doing the best she could in an bad situation.

But I do question her flying to Ohio during the 21 day time after treating an active dying ebola patient. Maybe she thought enough time had passed, that 21 days was excessive? Maybe a lot of things. But I question her judgement not in flying with a fever, but in flying at all during the 21 days.

Only she has the answer and I wish her fast and easy recovery, healing.

[uponit7771]

185. 99.5 is NOT a fever...

[KitSileya]

199. You keep posting that, but it doesn't make it any less true that she was worried

She was worried about her temperature, which means that it was above what it usually is for *her* and that is what matters. Not the textbook definition of fever. You have been saying over and over and over again on this thread that a woman's temperature varies during the month, which you are right about. However, what you then refuse to acknowledge is that because of this, the threshold of fever varies along with it. She was worried about her temperature prior to flight - ergo, she was in a position where she might be developing symptoms of ebola, and she was putting herself on a plane with hundreds of other people in an environment with canned air, and the increasing chance that she might become symptomatic and put all those people at risk.

In other words, despite what you say, she was risking the lives of others.

[uponit7771]

201. Its fact, there's nothing wrong with posting that she had no signs she was sick and followed rules..

...it's hard to place the onus on her

[uppityperson]

225. You picked out 1 word of my post to reply to. How about the rest of it?

[Catherine Vincent]

8. Not blaming her but I, too, questioned her judgement.

But it's in the past and I hate to be in her shoes, that's for sure.

[Sheldon Cooper]

14. Yes, I feel sorry for her and I hope she makes a full recovery.

People shouldn't have to pay for mistakes with their lives.

[sendero]

24. No one..

.... wants her to even be sick, but I don't give two shits who doesn't like it - a nurse who has been exposed to ebola and KNOWS IT and then develops a fever several days later, well let's just leave it at poor judgment on her part.

[uponit7771]

70. 99.5 is NOT a fever for a woman!!

[uponit7771]

9. 99.5 is NOT a fever...

http://www.webmd.com/first-aid/body-temperature

What is a fever?

In most adults, an oral temperature above 100.4 °F (38 °C) or a rectal or ear temperature above 101 °F (38.3 °C) is considered a fever. A child has a fever when his or her rectal temperature is 100.4 °F (38 °C) or higher.

My understanding is a persons body temp can rise 1deg depending on a number of factors like ambient temp and exercise etc...

[Sheldon Cooper]

13. But she was monitoring her temperature, and she was concerned enough about it to call the

CDC. So, she obviously wondered whether she should go. If I'm in her shoes, knowing that an elevated temp is the first sign of ebola infection, then I am going to be hyper-vigilant for even a tenth of a degree increase.

For a non-emergency flight, I'm still going to question her actions.

[uponit7771]

20. Then that means she goes to quarantine for jogging? ... cause that's what could

...cause a 1 deg rise in body temp.

I played football, we'd come off the field at 100 - 101 EASY...



I don't think these health care givers were ever told the consequence of their actions or given a choice in the matter.

She's was supposed to be getting married....

I'm sure if she knew that any sign of infection would mean the weddings off for a time being (or forever) there would have been some kind of pondering...

[Sheldon Cooper]

25. And I would assume that, AS A NURSE, she'd be able to tell if her temp increase

was due to a recent jog. After all, she didn't call the CDC because she just ran a few miles, did she? Not that I've heard, anyway.

I think you're really splitting hairs here. My opinion is this: she is a nurse. She is an educated professional. As such, she almost certainly knew (or should have known) that even a slight increase in temp, especially when you cannot attribute it to a recent physical activity, and especially when you just cared for a dying ebola patient, could be the beginning of a problem.

I really don't want to come off as victim-blaming here. I genuinely feel sorry for this woman and I hope she makes a full recovery and goes on to have her wedding. Which, by the way, is not imminent if you can believe local news sources here. I just can't for the life of me figure out her recent thought processes.

[uponit7771]

38. No, not at all... a 1deg temp rises could be from ovulation to pregnancy to mestrual period for a

... woman and that's NORMAL.

As such, she almost certainly knew (or should have known) that even a slight increase in temp, especially when you cannot attribute it to a recent physical activity, and especially when you just cared for a dying ebola patient, could be the beginning of a problem.

For a woman... no ... not at all....

What is normal body temperature?

Most people think of a "normal" body temperature as an oral temperature of 98.6 °F (37 °C). This is an average of normal body temperatures. Your temperature may actually be 1°F (0.6°C) or more above or below 98.6 °F (37 °C). Also, your normal body temperature changes by as much as 1°F (0.6°C) throughout the day, depending on how active you are and the time of day. Body temperature is very sensitive to hormone levels and may be higher or lower when a woman is ovulating or having her menstrual period.

[Sheldon Cooper]

41. Sigh.

You are deliberately missing my point, and I'm done arguing about it. Carry on.

[uponit7771]

45. What?! 99.5 isn't even a temerature, the whole premise of her having signs is dead wrong I don't car

...what the screaming heads on TV said

[LondonReign2]

55. "the whole premise of her having signs is dead wrong"

Right, that's why she called the CDC in the first place.

[uponit7771]

63. +1, the cdc cleared her because there was nothing wrong. 99.5 is normal for a woman NOT showign

...any other signs of being sick.

What SHOULD have happened is all teh health care givers been given blood test for traces of the virus...


Seems like that shold be happening now

[LondonReign2]

77. -1

[HockeyMom]

117. Taking your temperature every single day

is the ONLY way a woman will know what her "normal" temp is and what it is when she ovulates. I took mine every day in order see the most optimal time to get pregnant. Reverse "natural family planning", so to speak, 30 years ago.

My normal was between 98 and 99. When it went over 99, was when I was ovulating. I did not have a FEVER. I was not SICK.

Putting aside this nurse, I sure hope, if they ever start taking women of childbearing age's temp at airports (ugh), I hope learn a little bit about female biology first.

[riqster]

223. My youngest has huge temp swings, as does my wife.

Good post, thanks for being factual.

[riqster]

84. She was monitoring her temp because CDC told her to.

They also gave her upper limit data that was well above her reading. She would have been completely in compliance with protocol had she not even called CDC.

She WAS going over and above by calling them. She WAS being hyper-vigilant. She WAS taking more precautions than required.

Too bad she didn't consult with you, but there we are. Probably wasn't aware of your supreme knowledge of all things epidemiological.

[merrily]

138. 99.5 is not necessarily elevated.

Our temps fluctuate at various times of the day and someone on this thread said 99.5 is normal for a woman. (It's not normal for me, but I know that my temps and blood pressure tend to run low usually.)

[KitSileya]

147. Doesn't matter if it is normal for women.

Se knew it wasn't normal for *her*, which makes all the difference.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/10/15/ebola-patient-traveled-day-before-diagnosis/
“This nurse, Nurse Vinson, did in fact call the CDC several times before taking that flight and said she has a temperature, a fever of 99.5, and the person at the CDC looked at a chart and because her temperature wasn’t 100.4 or higher she didn’t officially fall into the category of high risk,” said Dr. LaPook on the CBS Evening News.

As a nurse, who knew a colleague had become sick by then, she knew she was at much, much higher risk than before. Pham was sick by the time she took the second plane ride. She was unconscionably negligent.

[merrily]

152. Not necessarily.

She knew it wasn't normal for *her*, which makes all the difference.

Not necessarily. Maybe she does not usually take her own temperature throughout the day across a span of days. Most people don't, unless they have a reason so to do. Maybe she never had a reason so to do until she got exposed to ebola. She thought she had a fever. She may have been correct about that or not. It may have been very normal for her.

The government experts on communicable disease told her she could fly. Why should she have disbelieved them? And what benefit is there in shifting blame to her, or in judging her as "unconscionable."

[uponit7771]

186. How do you know the temp was in connection with the CDC call? My understanding is she just called...

... cdc to make sure she can fly...

There's so much misinformation on this issue

[KitSileya]

193. Did you read the quote in the post to which you replied?

here, let me quote it again with the relevant part bolded:

“This nurse, Nurse Vinson, did in fact call the CDC several times before taking that flight and said she has a temperature, a fever of 99.5, and the person at the CDC looked at a chart and because her temperature wasn’t 100.4 or higher she didn’t officially fall into the category of high risk,” said Dr. LaPook on the CBS Evening News.

In other words, she called the CDC in connection with her temperature, which she knew wasn't normal for her, and we know it wasn't normal for her, because she was worried enough about it to call the CDC.

I would expect a nurse to know that body temperature vary from person to person and according to time of month for women....Wouldn't taking a patient's temperature be a regular duty of nurses? How could they not know this, and pass their exams? This is pretty basic stuff.

[uponit7771]

198. 99.5 is NOT a fever for a woman!! In connection to means she called BECAUSE of the temp not called a

...said what her temp was.

There's nothing in the article or from what I've read that said she called because her temp was 1 deg above normal!!

What HCG would do that?!!?!?

Hell, I'm at 99.2... should I be on the phone with the CDC!?!??!?!?

...and have

NO WAY TO TELL

if I've come in contact with an ebola carrier seeing the incubation time is so long....


Again...


She followed the rules and even went a step further, I don't put the onus on her

[Sweet Freedom]

22. Doesn't matter

She was a caregiver to someone with a deadly contagious virus and she was still within the incubation period. Her decision was truly unwise.

[uponit7771]

39. Again, I'd be willing to bet good money that NONE.. NONE of those cargivers signed up for a "...live

... your life completely away from society... " assignment when they were assigned Duncan.

They weren't given the choice and I'd bet more good money they weren't given the consequences of the assignment either.

looking at the facts I'm leaning towards they were told very very little and weren't told any of the procedures afterwards in making sure no one else caught the virus

[KitSileya]

58. Those caregivers didn't have to sign up for it - public health demands it from them.

Typhoid Mary didn't think the quarantine laid down on her was fair, but those put into danger because of her was pretty relieved when she was forced to live on that island.

A nurse should know better. Doesn't matter if the rise of temperature is caused by ovulation, or stress or whatever - if you are a nurse, and have been at risk of contamination, and what's more, a colleague of yours, who cared for the same patient at about the same time, managed to get infected, you don't fly if your temperature rises. You don't leave your place of residence, you wait to see if your fever rises further, and as you wait, you alert your employer, and the CDC that you may be a second victim. A health care worker should know this, and should have done it. If it turns out that she infected someone else because of this, she should be stripped of her nursing license. As it is, if she survives, and no one else gets infected, she should have to face a board of inquiry, alongside her employer, and the person at the CDC that gave her the go ahead to fly.

[uponit7771]

69. "..Those caregivers didn't have to sign up for it -..." lol... that's great to say after the fact!!!

...lol

Really!? come now people....

Do you TRULY believe ALL... ALL of the caregivers who worked with Duncan signed up for a "... stop your life as you know it ... " assignment?!

Come on

[KitSileya]

95. Anyone who comes into contact with an ebola victim is forced to do it.

No signing up - if you had come into contact with Mr. Duncan's bodily fluids in the ER where he waited, you would have had to stop your life as you know it for 21 days. That is how we stop these things from becoming the Black Death. That you keep saying that nurses "don't sign up for living their lives completely away from society" is idiotic and puerile. The moment there was a reasonable suspicion that Mr. Duncan had ebola, everyone he came into contact with had to limit their contact with others. The moment it became clear that containment had been breached for the nurses, every health care worker who cared for him, and those they had contact with, had to give up their usual lives for 21 days.

Don't you know anything about how to contain a virulent, deadly disease? Apparently not, so do pay attention when those who do, speak.

[uponit7771]

99. WHO is says its 42 days now... and " everyone he came into contact with had to limit their contact .

... with others."

is extremely opaque... because it does IN NOW WAY relay the extremity of "limiting contact".

Don't you know anything about how to contain a virulent, deadly disease? Apparently not, so do pay attention when those who do, speak.

Really hard to give those who "do speak" any credibility when they've been so wrong about the basics of this issue...

99.5 is not always a "temperature" for a healthy woman...

There was no reason she SHOULD have called the CDC and NO ONE outlined the what "limit contact" meant if even prove that the officials said that at all.

Remember, there were those in the media claiming that the disease isn't contagious....

[KMOD]

110. WHO says it's 42 days to

declare an Ebola epidemic over. The incubation period has not changed.

[uponit7771]

113. Thx, so basically these people got to sit out life for a month and half until the REAL "all clear"..

...is given.

I'm sure no one told them that...

Now what are other HC professionals supposed to do?

[KMOD]

124. No, the incubation period is still 21 days

So people have to wait 21 days until they know they are clear. The 42 days is for a country, city, town, etc. to be declared Ebola free. 42 days to consider the outbreak over.

[KitSileya]

119. Oh, for crying out loud.

She knew her temperature wasn't normal *for her* because she was worried about it. The exact temperature doesn't matter, as it was *abnormal* for *her* to have a temperature of 99.5F.

And if a nurse who worked on an ebola patient doesn't know that ebola is contagious, I say strip them of their right to practice nursing immediately - they are a hazard to any patients.

I assume that even in the U.S., nursing schools teach their students how to avoid spreading infectious diseases. If not - the moment I had gotten a patient with ebola in the hospital I worked as cleaning staff, you can be damned sure I would have read up on it most assiduously and gone with the worst case scenario. As it was, we had to override nurses who felt it was too stigmatizing to tell us which rooms at the maternity ward contained mother with infectious diseases, and whose rooms we could only clean using containment procedures. Putting big yellow triangles on the doors was "outing" them to all the other mothers with newborn infants on the ward, and they certainly didn't have time to tell us which rooms they were in. It wasn't until I blew up and told them for f&/%'s sake put stickers of harmless butterflies and flowers beside the door so that only we would know what it meant, that they realized that they were putting all the newborns in the ward at risk for God knows what all different diseases.

[uponit7771]

127. Where did you read she was worried about her temp? She called teh CDC to see if she could travel

... and there's nothing I read that said it was related to temp...

Which technically... was perefectly ok at 99.5 for a woman

http://www.webmd.com/first-aid/body-temperature....

Also, ebola is NOT contagious even during non incubation...

That doesn't mean it isn't catchable but it's not airborne... that's how they define contagious... from what I understand

Again, I'm sure she wasn't perfect but I think the focus should be on the people who didn't communicate to her the FULL consequences of the Duncan assignment.

[KitSileya]

143. I might get contagious and infectious mixed up (English is my second language)

However, she was worried about her temp.

“This nurse, Nurse Vinson, did in fact call the CDC several times before taking that flight and said she has a temperature, a fever of 99.5, and the person at the CDC looked at a chart and because her temperature wasn’t 100.4 or higher she didn’t officially fall into the category of high risk,” said Dr. LaPook on the CBS Evening News.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/10/15/ebola-patient-traveled-day-before-diagnosis/

And I say that even if she didn't reach the official threshold, travelling when you know containment had been breached as it had with Pham, (which she certainly knew by her second plane ride) and with a temperature above normal for *her* is negligent, perhaps even criminally negligent for a nurse.

That doesn't mean that I don't think the hospital she worked for shouldn't be nailed to the wall - much, much more than her, even, and the state government as well, as they should have made sure that the hospital followed *proper*containment procedures - but she shouldn't be absolved of all guilt either. Getting a nursing licence does put you in a different position than someone without experience in health care when it comes to medical situations. Such as doctors who do not give aid can be prosecuted where civilians would not be.

[merrily]

166. The news stories say that she wore protective gear.

[KitSileya]

190. That she knew wasn't good enough.

At least she knew it by the time she was flying home, with a temperature that wasn't normal for her. She knew it because someone she worked with, who cared for the patient at the same time as herself, had become sick. So she darn well knew that the protective gear they had been given wasn't adequate, or their routines weren't adequate, to contain the disease. There's absolutely no reason for her to think that she was so much better at the decontamination process than Pham that there was no chance that she had inadvertently breached containment during the process of removing her gear, even had her gear been adequate, which it was not. Not that I expect her to fully realize the latter, that her gear was inadequate - or perhaps she knew that complaining about it could cost her her job. I fully sympathize with that. What I cannot accept is that she decided to fly when she was in a self-monitoring phase...and she was worried about her temperature.

[merrily]

200. None of that is fact, only your supposition.

You don't even know that 99.5 was not normal for her. She may not even know what is normal for her. She had been reporting her temps to epidemiologists all along, just as she had been told to do.

There's absolutely no reason for her to think that she was so much better at the decontamination process than Pham that there was no chance that she had inadvertently breached containment during the process of removing her gear, even had her gear been adequate, which it was not.

Huh? How do you know that there was no reason for her to think the other nurse was as careful as she was? You don't know that and you don't know how careful the other nurse was, and you don't know what Vinson had reason to think, either. At the very best case for your position, she knew what she herself had done and knew that she had complied with what the experts told her; and did not know, one way or the other, what the other nurse had done.



What I don't know is why you seem to be clutching at straws to blame her. At every stage, she did what she had been told to do. The focus should be on them, not her.

[riqster]

191. Follow the links in my OP.

For the first few days, the care team had substandard, improvised gear because of hospital and CDC errors.

[Sheldon Cooper]

73. But but but!!

Maybe she just ran ten miles, or is ovulating, or something else! It could be anything! And maybe a monkey will fly out of my ass, we just don't know...no one can predict this sort of thing!

[uponit7771]

78. Hey, if you just want someone to blame she's an easy target but given the facts of the matter there

... was nothing wrong with her and the CDC cleared her and there was no one at the hospital that said don't live your life ofr the next month...

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt....

[KitSileya]

104. Yes - it isn't the temperature itself, but the rise of it that is the concern.

We all have different internal temperatures, but we all will have rising temperatures if we contract ebola. So, if she called the CDC because she had a rising temperature, then she knew what her normal temperature was, and what she measured wasn't normal. If she was too terrified, or too feverish (even if posters claim it wasn't a fever, while others say she was too sick to think straight) then her mother should have told her no flying for you, young lady. Anyone in her vicinity should have told her you do not fly when you are on a 21 days self-monitoring because you might have been infected with a deadly, infectious disease. It is idiotic to claim anything else, and it is idiotic to claim that nurses don't sign away their lives just because they became nurses - sorry, that is exactly what they did when they got their licences. In addition, anyone who came in contact with the infected patient can have the right to live their lives as usual taken away from them for 21 days without any recourse to law. It is called public health.

[uponit7771]

214. I agree on the RISING temp, there's no proof that she called the CDC in connection with her temp

... just the flight.

The articles I read said "she stated" her temp on the phone with the CDC....

Even if I read different that it was in connection I still beleive she followed the rules and took an extra step to call the CDC multiple times

[LostInAnomie]

168. +1

[KingCharlemagne]

148. There's a tiny little part of me that wishes every R.N., LPN and Nurse's Aide would

stage a mass general strike in this country, maybe just a 24-hour walkout (exempting emergency room nurses).

That would not be as easy to fix as the 1981 PATCO strike.

I am really pissed off about this "Kiss up, kick down" shit (to quote Fumesucker) going on.

[riqster]

197. Damn skippy. Serve the bashers right, it would.

[Sweet Freedom]

178. She signed up to be a nurse

and with that comes responsibility. Medical professionals are constantly exposed to infections and part of their job is to make sure they understand not only how infections are spread but how to prevent further contamination. I worked in a hospital setting for decades and I was required to learn about and be tested on my knowledge of infection transmission even though I didn't work directly with patients. That's because when you work in a hospital, you have no idea what you might be exposed to on the elevator, in the halls or coming through the front door. The incubation period is well-documented in JCAHO and CDC guidelines, which she would have had access to. And even if she didn't, it's not like she was ignorant to the fact that she treated a patient with Ebola. She knew she was exposed to the virus and she could have easily prevented putting anyone else at risk by staying off of a plane.

[uponit7771]

181. Yes, ... I agree.. take responsibility after being FULLY informed.. .FULLY... I'm STILL thinking

... some here side with the HC Officials on the fully informed part.

We were told over and over and over again that the disease was NOT contagious and not highly transmittable

[Sweet Freedom]

19. Exactly. Even without a fever her actions were irresponsible.

Wedding planning was certainly not worth the risk that--evidenced by her calls to the CDC--she worried she was taking. Her decision seriously lacked a common-sense response.

[SoapBox]

21. I agree with your post.

When exactly, times and dates, did she contact the CDC?

Who exactly did she speak with each time?

What exactly did she tell them? She had direct contact with Duncan? She had direct contact with the other nurse that was sick?

Why didn't she call her own hospital administration and tell them she had a low grade fever? The warning horns and red lights should have been going off immediately.

Why didn't she call 911 and tell them she had direct contact with Duncan?

Why was she monitoring her temperature?

In this particular case, this person nurse or not, bears a huge amount of responsibility for exposing hundreds of people.

[CTyankee]

40. I can understand the emotional pull on her to attend the wedding but sh*t happens and

upsetting as it is to miss a family event, it's not worth a health risk to others. I think hers was a poor decision and I wish someone close to her had talked her out of it...

[Sheldon Cooper]

43. She wasn't attending a wedding. She was planning her wedding, which is to take place

later this year.

[CTyankee]

139. oops, I thought she had gone TO a wedding...

but I guess the same emotional tug at her was in play...it's a big deal to put off a wedding but everybody can understand extenuating circumstances.

I hope she's ok and can eventually have that wedding...

[uponit7771]

54. There was nothing wrong with her, 99.5 is a normal temperature for a woman ... why would she take

... herself out of HER OWN wedding planning or anything of the sort?


O wait, some talkin heads told us she had a fever... she didn't 99.5 is not a fever for a woman...

There were no signs of anything being wrong with her

[snappyturtle]

121. Well, I've been a woman for 67 years and my 'normal' temp isn't the

'normal' one of about 98.6. My 'normal' is significantly lower by a degree or degree and a half. My point is that we know nothing of Vinson's personal temp profile history. I think it's sickening that the CDC can issue such landmarks for temperature like it's the perfect template for everyone. We know little here.

I will give Vinson this: she wasn't the first one to screw up and she's young...I think young people sometimes believe they're invincible. AND, I think if she had asked the common person on the street familiar with the ebola story they would have advised her not to travel. It's simply common sense. Hopefully, she will enjoy full health soon.

[uponit7771]

187. Yes, that's what webmd said... 98.6 is the AVG temp... human body temp is not a static number

...and 1deg above or below isn't out of the range of normal.

[Sweet Freedom]

153. Because it's the right thing to do!

Fever or not, she was an unprotected caregiver to an Ebola patient and was still within the incubation period. Just because she didn't have a fever when she boarded the plane did not guarantee that she would remain that way throughout her flight, her visit, or her flight home. Her wedding plans were not more important than the health of the people she exposed herself to. There was still the possibility of infection, which turns out, she has. It was an irresponsible selfish risk.

[peace13]

158. It's funny out here.

I've pretty much given up making sense of it. What I learned today on DU is that everybody travels with a bug, a fever or the flu these days even if they are headed to grannies for the holiday. If a person has any type of immune system issue then it is their responsibility to wear a mask and gloves while flying. If a person wants to fly with a fever after being exposed to Ebola it's fine as long as they don't vomit or crap on anyone. If a member of the medical staff does not understand what a quarantine is it is not his or her fault....the boss got it wrong.

We have no personal accountability here. None. That is the real epidemic in our country!

[Sweet Freedom]

271. No, I know. I can't believe it.

We constantly berate Republicans for their "I got mine, screw you" mentality and here it is prevalent on DU.

[riqster]

42. Why did she travel? Because she was told it was OK to do so.

A tendentious question, with a simple answer.

[Sheldon Cooper]

44. No, not "why did she travel?"

The question is, GIVEN HER SPECIFIC SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES, why did she even think about traveling?

[riqster]

53. The same answer. Your tendentious questions are not impressive.

I have friends in public health, and not a one of them blames Ms. Vinson.

They are the experts, and I'll take their expertise over excessively leading questions any day of the week.

[Sheldon Cooper]

64. Tendentious. I congratulate you on learning a new word.

:slow clap:

[riqster]

71. No answer, huh?

[Sheldon Cooper]

74. What was the question?

[riqster]

93. I am so glad I wrote my OP.

[Sheldon Cooper]

241. You are certainly proud of your vocabulary, I'll give you that much.

Endless F-bombs, and 'tendentious' too! Not too many people could pull that off!

[riqster]

243. I'm pleased that you were unable to refute my argument.

Thus the deflections.

[Sheldon Cooper]

244. Deflections? Sure, that's the ticket!

Now, your next response is "I know you are, but what am I?" because that's the extent of your arguments to me. Don't forget to drop some f bombs and type out the word 'tendentious', too. I know you're especially attached to that one.

[riqster]

249. Further proof. Have a splendid evening.

[merrily]

170. She is not an epidemiologist. At every step, she did what experts told her to do.

She wore protective gear. She was monitoring her temps and reporting them to epidemiologists all along. As soon as she saw anything over 98.6, she called the CDC. At every stage, she was told she was not high risk. How about putting the blame on the experts who were fine with what she was doing?

[riqster]

195. Just so.

[merrily]

205. PLEASE pm me if you get the zeal to grind this sick, obedient woman to dust,

especially while letting the hospital and epidemiologists and CDC off the hook. And Dr .Snyderman.

I promise no one will ever know whether you pm'd me or not, let alone what you said. I just can't believe what I am reading!

[riqster]

216. I haven't a clue as to the origin of the hatred towards her.

I even checked with some friends and coworkers who handle public health, epidemiology, outbreaks, etc. before writing the post. According to them, the nurse did everything right, and in fact went above and beyond what was expected of her.

Why alleged liberals and progressives would behave in such a reactionary and regressive manner is a mystery to me.

[merrily]

218. Only thing I can think of is that it shifts blame from the CDC to this poor soul.

[riqster]

221. Fumesucker wrote a post on the phenomenon. Maybe the reasoning matches.

Certainly more psychological insight than I possess.

[merrily]

229. The "Kiss up, punch down" post, or were you thinking of another fumesucker gem?

[riqster]

234. That one.

[merrily]

236. When it comes to a registered nurse who did everything she was supposed to do,

some posters may be actually punching up. Just a hunch.

[riqster]

237. Point. They're full of shit regardless.

[merrily]

238. Or full of agenda.

I can't always tell. Either way, respect and best wishes to nurse Vinson.

[Skittles]

256. who is letting them off the hook?

THEY ALL DROPPED THE BALL

[merrily]

263. As you can see from my posts on this thread, that is not my opinion of Vinson.

I don't think the facts that we have so far show at all that she dropped the ball.

And that's before we've even heard her side, only the side of people seeking to cover up their own mistakes, including by lying about the nurses and putting out conflicting info.

If I learn additional facts come out that are contrary to my opinion, I will, of course, change my opinion in accordance with the fact. Until then, the facts simply don't support this condemnation fest.

[treestar]

209. The really strange thing to me, is who would feel like flying?

She must have felt OK. Any fever would cause at least enough discomfort for a person not to feel like dealing with airports, security, sitting in the ovular tube for three hours, etc.

[riqster]

222. True. Her temp was below the margin, and she had no other symptoms.

[Skittles]

255. aw there's no such thing as shared blame, Sheldon!

if the original victim and this gal's employers dropped the ball that apparently means she is relieved of displaying any common sense!!!

[SoCalDem]

270. It's obvious to me that the hospital was not as firm with the ones who were exposed

They should have had them all read and sign a document that stated :

isolation means you remove yourself from everyone... no contact with ANYONE..people bring you food, but do not share the meal at the same table with you

temp rise of anything over 98.6 needs immediate reporting

NO LEAVING your designated isolation location..no quick trips to the store, library, mall, no cab rides, bus rides, plane trips, cruises..etc

you will be reimbursed by this hospital for any non-refundable travel plans that you may have made for the time period of isolation

Isolation is a pretty easy word to understand for most adults, but apparently some (including Dr Nancy) think "they" can bend the rules.

Juries are sequestered all the time, but they also post guards to see to it that these folks have no outside contact, and stay put.

Maybe isolation should be mandatory, and guarded. since some people carve put special dispensations if they are not monitored.

[uponit7771]

4. Not only that but what message is being sent to future caregivers? When ebola comes your way run?

... I mean now the people who might be treating ebola patients for 21 days can't

- travel
- go in public places
- live in an apartment
- have to have their names on lists
- restricted movements

[ProfessorPlum]

32. yeah, that's called public health

it sucks, but sometimes you have to quarantine yourself for the greater good.

Are you suggesting people should just go about their normal routine if they are exposed to ebola? Weird.

[uponit7771]

34. No, just that health care givers should be given the choice of lifestyle... I'm sure

... few of them signed up for a "...live away from society for a year or two while working with ebola patients assignment..."

That's REALLY taking their willingness for granted imho

I could be wrong, but if someone didn't tell me my life would LITERALLY be on hold for a month or two BEFORE working with a kind of sick patient I would be pissed

[riqster]

47. I think it's a bit different: this is because her employer was incompetent and negligent.

She was exposed to ebola because her boss fucked up, as did the CDC.

And quarantine restrictions are not best done ad-hoc. Public health professionals are supposed to know the business and make sure providers are informed and equipped.

[peace13]

169. Take the thought one step further.

Any professional that has been exposed would certainly research what the protocol for quarantine is. Go ahead and give this woman a get out of jail free card but if she had vomited on anyone in that plane I think you would feel differently. The potential was there. She was lucky.

At the end of the day we are all humans, susceptible to deadly diseases. Even if we are inconvenienced we need to follow the protocol to keep everyone as safe as possible. If we don't know the protocol we need to educate ourselves or...find another job.

[riqster]

183. She DID know the protocol. That is what you're missing.

Everyone who is criticizing her is missing that point.

She WAS educated on how to behave during the incubation period.

She DID follow all the regulations and protocols during that period. In fact, she went beyond them.

Anyone bashing her is either ignorant of those realities, or purposely ignoring them.

[peace13]

165. I think you covered most of the bases.

Please advise how you would control a disease that has killed millions around the globe without some kind of restrictions.

The nurse in question should have been on short term disability for the 21 days. It would have cost her nothing to do the right thing. If a person with AIDS spits in someones face they are charged with a crime, even though the spit may not transmit the disease to that individual. I fail to see how this is any different. If the nurse in question had happened to vomit mid flight I think people would be singing a different song here. It was not worth the risk.


As far as the caregivers go, if you are talking about medical professionals then there is protocol already set up to handle such emergencies. The problem appears to be the implementation of it.

Hospitals train for all kinds of catastrophes. It's in the job description!

[uponit7771]

172. First I would get HC Givers the choice if they want to be involved in the restrictions, give them

... a big freakin pay raise subsidised by the feds (I mean big... naw... whole year salary big)...

I agree 100% of the short term disability of the HCGs in this case, give it to em... even if they feel just tired that morning... and constant testing


BIG RAISE, testing and giving them a choice and short term disability seems MINIMAL and right now is NOT in place right now

[world wide wally]

5. I would ask if anyone out there has passed along a virus unintentionally

[Sweet Freedom]

30. I don't think the question is, have you ever unintentionally passed along a virus?

I think the question is were you a caregiver in direct unprotected contact with someone who died from a deadly contagious disease who, even though you knew better, decided to board a plane during the incubation period instead of waiting a couple weeks, so you could plan a wedding?

In the interest of everyone, her wedding plans could have waited or been made remotely.

[riqster]

51. "Even though you knew better"?

All due respect, but this woman acted responsibly and obeyed every instruction and restriction given to her. She knew better than you or I.

Monday-morning medical practitioners, sheesh.

[uponit7771]

52. Not only that, there was technically no signs of anything wrong with her. 99.5 is not a fever

... for a woman that is in NORMAL health.

[riqster]

57. Truth. How many of those whipping snark at her know Thing One about medicine?

"Not many" or "none", I am thinking.

[uponit7771]

60. +1, but but... some talking head claims that 99.5 is a fever for a woman and DUr's take it like it's

... gospel...

If it's from our MSM then I question it.

Vison had NO SIGNS of anything technically being wrong with her... she was taking the extra step of even calling the CDC now that I know better.

[riqster]

65. She acted responsibly and professionally. Good luck to her.

We need dedicated people like her when shit goes south for us. Bless her.

[uponit7771]

72. amen

[Ms. Toad]

257. You might want to rethink that certainty.

(CNN) -- A nurse with Ebola may have shown symptoms of the virus as many as four days before authorities once indicated, meaning that she might have been contagious while flying on not just one, but two commercial flights, officials said Thursday.
. . .

"What the CDC has discovered, through interviews, is that she may not have been feeling well earlier than we initially thought on (Monday)," said the director, Dr. Marguerite Erme.

"... It was nothing you could point your finger at and say, 'Ah, this is a particular disease," Erme added. Nonetheless, the new information "kind of signified that maybe she had the illness longer than what she had when (hospitalized)."

Vinson said she felt fatigue, muscle ache and malaise while she was in Cleveland and on the flight home, a federal official with direct knowledge of the case told CNN's Elizabeth Cohen. Vinson did not have diarrhea or vomiting while in Cleveland or on the flight home.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/16/health/us-ebola/index.html

[Crunchy Frog]

228. It is a fever for me.

Pretty much anything over 99, and I will feel feverish and sick, and will generally have other symptoms of some sort of infection.

I've been a woman all my life, and it's always been this way, even when I was ovulating, menstruating, or pregnant.

If I had recently had direct contact with an Ebola patient, and I spiked a temp of 99.5, I would be shitting bricks, and would likely demand to be hospitalized and isolated until Ebola could be definitively ruled out or confirmed.

I am not in any way placing blame on this nurse. I just don't think you can make an absolute statement that 99.5 is *never* a fever.

[Sweet Freedom]

142. With all due respect, no she didn't. This is a matter of basic common sense.

If you were in her shoes, would someone honestly have to tell you not to get on a plane? Of course not! Anyone with any decency or common sense would reduce their exposure to anyone until after the incubation period. That's not a lot to ask of someone. And that she did know better makes her actions even more irresponsible. She's a grown educated woman who was well aware of the risks and she should have acted accordingly. And you can sheesh me all you want, but obviously, it was a bad decision because turns out, she has Ebola and she's needlessly risked other people's health over wedding plans!

[riqster]

167. Crap. Unless you are a nurse, medical practitioner or epidemiologist, you have no business throwing

stones. She followed the rules.

[Sweet Freedom]

182. See #178.

And by the same token, unless you are a nurse, medical practitioner or epidemiologist, you have no business making excuses for her irresponsible actions.

[riqster]

219. Ah, but before writing my OP, I DID consult with experts.

So I feel pretty good about my stance. It was checked by public health workers who are specialists in epidemiology.

In other words, I verified the facts before posting.

[Sweet Freedom]

240. Ok then, we can agree to disagree.

If you're exposed to Ebola you can get on a plane and risk infecting everyone on it because you consulted an expert and if I am exposed to Ebola, I'll stay home because I have enough common sense not to risk anyone else's health just so I can plan a wedding.

[riqster]

242. I would say that I consulted medical professionals instead of projecting my assumptions

Because "common sense" does not trump objective reality and facts. It's just a rhetorical device to try and bluster one's way past someone using an evidence-based approach.

Not falling for such a sub-101-level tactic.

[Sweet Freedom]

261. Just saw the news that all people exposed to Duncan

and Vinson—including everyone on the plane—are grounded and had to sign legal documents saying that they will not travel. So now you, me and the experts can be on the same page

[riqster]

266. Link?

[Sweet Freedom]

269. .

Here:
http://news.yahoo.com/texas-health-workers-receiving-orders-stay-home-230914836.html

Another healthcare worker is being brought back from a cruise ship:
http://news.yahoo.com/texas-health-worker-isolated-cruise-ship-over-possible-062926649.html

And I just heard on the radio that it appears Vinson was symptomatic four days before her last flight, so everybody on the first flight is having to report to the CDC to be monitored. (I don't have a link for that yet.)

[riqster]

272. So, the guidance changed after her flight.

Which STILL means it's not her fault. She followed the orders she was given by the supposed experts.

I'll see if you can get a link on the new timeline of her symptoms before responding to that. If true, it could change things.

[Sweet Freedom]

274. I'm not going to look for the link

because you can find it just as easily as I. Obviously, we're never going to be on the same side of this argument and whether she was symptomatic or not may change your opinion but it will not change mine. To me, hers was always an irresponsible decision and a thoughtless disregard for the health of her fellow man and as a nurse, she knew better. Part of her job is to help contain this virus, but instead her actions have needlessly placed hundreds of people under undue stress and maybe even a risk of infection and have resulted in a loss of CDC and TXHD man hours and money. For me, that is mind-boggling. I would never put myself ahead of the good of other people. It's a value I'm passionate about and it's one of the reasons I'm a Democrat.

That being said, I accept that I will not be able to sway your position and I wish you a happy and healthy day.

[riqster]

275. And a good day to you and yours.

[uponit7771]

173. Given the facts? OF COURSE!! If I want to look at facts, common sense starts with common knowledge

... there's seems to be NO... NONE common knowledge on how to get sick from ebola in this dept from the start.

She had NO SIGNS of being sick, was never tested for the virus, was given no clear direction on quarintine and given an all clear by health officials..

Givign those FACTS I think shutting herself in her house would be overkill

[Sweet Freedom]

268. Apparently, she was symptomatic.

I heard on the radio this morning that she was symptomatic four days before her last flight, so now everyone who was on the first flight has to report to the CDC and be monitored.

I wasn't suggesting she shut herself in her house, I was simply stating that it's obvious she shouldn't have gotten on a plane with 100+ people in an enclosed environment. Lack of directive is all the more reason for her to have been more cautious.

[KingCharlemagne]

7. It's here on DU and it's fucking disgusting. Thanks for posting this rebuttal, not that

it will change any minds nor lead anyone to see the light. Still, you put it out there and are to be commended for that.

[Aristus]

11. There's a lot of disrespect for healthcare workers on DU.

Disgusting...

I once had someone tell me that she just ignored her provider's advice on treating her diabetes because she 'knew better' than her doctor.

She must have injured her brain when she fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down.

Healthcare workers are like lawyers. Everyone hates disparages them until they need them...

[KingCharlemagne]

12. Going after nurses proved Schwarze-Nazi's final undoing out here in

California (while he was still in office and before the news of his illegitimate child by an affair with . . . a domestic worker . . . had surfaced).

What will they think of next? Blaming the janitorial staff (most of whom earn barely above the minumum wage)?

[Aristus]

16. And that's the lowest thing of all: bashing nurses.

As NCO's are the professional backbone of the military, so nurses are the professional backbone of the health care vocation.

[sendero]

27. No one..

... is "bashing nurses". I am questioning the professional judgment of this particular nurse who knew she had been exposed, developed a fever in the proper timeframe and decided that she should travel about.

POOR JUDGMENT.

[uponit7771]

49. Yes, people ARE bashing nurses and this ones judgment when FACTUALLY there were NO SIGNS of anything

...being wrong with her.

99.5 techinically is NOT a temperature and for a woman the 1 deg rise could be from a number of NORMAL things

No one is point at the officials at the hospitals who NEVER EVER communicated to them that their lives for a month would be turned upside down even if they didn't contract the virus but...


for jus taking the asignment...

[Pisces]

15. People don't use their own common sense. We bow down to authority because we are convinced

someone knows more than us. She should have used her brain and quarantined herself. Who cares what someone on the
phone said to her. She knows she was exposed, she knows another nurse in her hospital has Ebola and she gets on a plane
with a fever???

It just shows you how all things are corrupt. If someone who you think has more authority than you tells you to do something you
know to be morally and ethically unsound. You can not proceed and then blame the other person. You still have a brain and
right to refuse. Think of the financial disaster where thousands of people did the wrong thing because their boss told them too???

Use your own brain and quit asking for permission to do the right thing.

[Sweet Freedom]

31. +1 /nt

[uponit7771]

50. Quarantined herself while THERE WAS NO SIGNS OF ANYTHING WRONG?! You're kidding...

... 99.5 is NOT a wrong temperature for a woman

http://www.webmd.com/first-aid/body-temperature

What is normal body temperature?

Most people think of a "normal" body temperature as an oral temperature of 98.6 °F (37 °C). This is an average of normal body temperatures. Your temperature may actually be 1°F (0.6°C) or more above or below 98.6 °F (37 °C). Also, your normal body temperature changes by as much as 1°F (0.6°C) throughout the day, depending on how active you are and the time of day. Body temperature is very sensitive to hormone levels and may be higher or lower when a woman is ovulating or having her menstrual period.

[Pisces]

162. That is a normal temp for someone who has not come in contact with Ebola!! If you were directly

exposed any slight change would be an alarm bell!! Especially when another nurse in your hospital tested positive.

Again I say you would have to use your own common sense. Like the first nurse who quarantined herself. She did not allow anyone
to come into contact with her once she had an elevated temperature.

There are 2 examples. The first nurse who handled herself accordingly with no model but her own common sense, and the second nurse who even though she had nurse Pham as a model did not use common sense. She asked permission to fly instead of using her brain and waiting to see if her temp continued to rise. Further more all of the nurses who attended the patient after nurse Pham tested positive should have been quarantined!!

The incompetence of the CDC, the hospital, the doctors, and yes the nurses!! is mind boggling!!!!!

[uponit7771]

202. She was not directly exposed, there's no proof of that... where are people getting this from!?

... the M$M?!?!

[Pisces]

245. THis is a life lesson. You have to trust your own common sense, she was obviously uncertain and

that is why she called the CDC. She got permission from a peon and ran with it???? She is a nurse who took care of an Ebola
patient. There is no more information needed. She took her temp, it was elevated, she felt unsure and calls. At that point she
should have gone with her gut and waited before she boarded a flight. She should have taken the actions of the first nurse and
quarantined herself.

Now they are putting all of the nurses and doctors on a no fly quarantine. I think we need to evaluate how this happened. Maybe it
sounds like blame, but questions need to be asked. We can not continue to have these mistakes. It is sheer incompetence at all
levels. I'm sorry if she is getting a lot of pushback for her decisions, but I don't think I would have boarded that plane and I wouldn't have had to call anyone to make that decision.

[uponit7771]

246. That's not proof hat she was directly exposed to duncan

[TM99]

247. Seriously?

No proof?

She works at the hospital. She is one of the nurses that worked with Duncan. Her fellow nurse is now sick with Ebola. She now has Ebola.

How can you even argue with a straight face such lunacy? How in the fuck to you think she got Ebola?!

[Pisces]

248. Here's the link to the story. She was directly exposed to Duncan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/10/15/ebola-stricken-nurse-flew-on-a-passenger-plane-a-day-before-being-diagnosed/


Family members told Reuters and the Dallas Morning News that Vinson is a nurse at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital. She was part of a team that had cared for Thomas Eric Duncan, a Liberian man who flew to Texas and was diagnosed with Ebola last month, during his hospitalization in Dallas. Duncan died last week. Nina Pham, a nurse who also cared for Duncan, was diagnosed with Ebola on Sunday and was in good condition Wednesday, the hospital said.

I don't know how you missed this fact. She should have taken extreme precaution. She is the nurse, she knew she was around
Duncan and she knew another nurse was diagnosed with Ebola. Her temp went up, she got worried and called CDC. This is the
lesson. She should have done what nurse Pham did and quarantined herself until she was sure. It is that simple. We have to
rely on our common sense. I hold her to the same standards I would hold my children to. Just because a teacher, a boss or
someone in authority tells you to do something you are not sure of, go with your gut. She should have questioned the instructions
and waited to make sure her temp did not go higher.

I'm sorry but she has the lion's share of the blame in this scenario. Everyone has to ask themselves what could they have done better.

[Ms. Toad]

258. I'd say inserting a catheter,

and being while he is vomiting and having diarrhea is pretty direct exposure.

Vinson, a nurse, had cared for Thomas Eric Duncan, a patient with Ebola, in Dallas—she had put a catheter in him and been in close contact when he was vomiting and in the throes of diarrhea.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/amber-vinson-ebola

Frieden said that the nurse had had “extensive contact” with Duncan, including while he was vomiting and had diarrhea. Duncan contracted the virus in Liberia and flew to Dallas in September. He died earlier this month.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/dallas-ebola-nurse-amber-vinson-should-not-have-traveled-cdc-n226551

[OnyxCollie]

23. It's not often that I agree with you.

This is one of those times.

Mark it on your calendar.

[riqster]

96. Duly noted.

Calls for a

Hope all is well with you and yours.

[totodeinhere]

26. I absolutely do not blame Amber Vinson for geting on that plane. She got

permission from the CDC to fly. But I don't blame Thomas Duncan either. There is nothing to indicate that he knew he had contracted Ebola when he flew to this country. He asymptomatic at that time. Yes he had helped a pregnant woman who had Ebola, which was an act of kindness, but he couldn't have known that she had Ebola. Duncan's family has speculated that he may have thought that the women's infirmity was caused by her pregnancy, not Ebola. So don't blame Duncan either. Blame the incompetent system but don't blame either of these two people.

[marions ghost]

88. Really.

There is no point in blaming these unfortunate victims of the disease who were trying to help others.

[KingCharlemagne]

151. Did you know that in 2009 the head of the Texas Presbyterian hospital chain made

close to $6 million in salary and other compensation? I'll bet few here knew that.

What was it Harry S. Truman said about where the buck stops? (And he didn't mean a $1 bill, either.)

[Trajan]

28. Oh criminy ...

While I appreciate your spirit and your sympathy, your insulting manner kinda wipes all that out ...

It's as if you needed a worthy cause so you can unload a stream of profanity, with the profanity as your actual goal ...

Your really didn't need all those 'extra words' ... the message could have been conveyed without the excess garbage ...

[riqster]

112. A stylistic choice. I understand that it is offensive to some.

[pnwmom]

29. What I don't understand is why she went to Ohio in the first place.

Wasn't she supposed to be in a 21 day observation period under some sort of quarantine? Weren't all the people who cared for Duncan? And what are they all doing now?

[totodeinhere]

33. No they are not quarantined. They are doing self monitoring and that's it.

She specifically asked officials at the CDC if she could make that trip and was given permission to do so. If there is fault here it is with the authorities. Maybe they should be enforcing a quarantine but at this point they are not.

[SoapBox]

36. She asked the CDC BEFORE leaving Dallas, if she could fly?

My understanding from stories was that she contacted the CDC AFTER she arrived in CLE and was at her mother's...can you give a link clarify that she contacted them before travel?

[uppityperson]

81. If you have a source showing she talked with them prior to the trip, I'd like to see it as what I've

read is she contacted them prior to returning from the trip.

[totodeinhere]

131. You are correct. She asked the CDC to for permission to fly back to Dallas and

it was granted.

[merrily]

161. And they okayed the flight because she was not in a high risk group.

There is less than no indication they would not have told her the same thing had she called before the first flight. That pretty much renders the question of whether she called before the first flight moot, doesn't it?

I'd be interested in her explanation of why she called before the second flight and not the first, if indeed that was the case.

[uponit7771]

35. also, 21 day self observation != stay away from society. Im sure that's not what these people signed

... up for going into the tasks of taking care of Mr Duncan

[calimary]

174. Doesn't matter. That may be what is NECESSARY.

I'm certain that's not what people signed up for. But that comes with the territory they DID sign up for. Unfortunate at most. Inconvenient at least. But NECESSARY.

[uponit7771]

180. No,... we disagree on the facts there... No one signed up for Agent Orange... but they did sign up

... for the military thinking they higher ups would look out for them.

In this case no one signed up for 21 0 42 days of separation away from NORMAL society.... including their loved ones

I would put good money on that most of the HCGs NEVER thought they would have to stay away from their loved ones, normal life and even normal eating and living for almost a month...

Hell... at least pay em for that

[calimary]

203. AHA! You hit on something REALLY important here! URGENTLY important.

It's the new "F-word." FUNDING.

FUNDING!!!!! FUNDING, DAMMIT!!!!!!!!

I don't think we're gonna get that far, really. Congress may be embarrassed into relaxing funding restrictions maybe just this once. But that whole attitude has to be revisited and re-thought. We CANNOT cheap out on this. We CANNOT nickel-and-dime this. We CANNOT go with the minimum precautions. Anybody wanna bet their lives on the minimum precautions?

You make a painfully good point, too, about how no one signed up for Agent Orange. Totally! You'll get no disagreement from me on that one. And I'm not one of those who dismiss people who went over to Iraq and fought and came back mangled for life - "DUH... they volunteered..." Well, yeah, they volunteered, but trusting that they'd be protected and covered and would be well-cared-for if something happened. And as we can see, when they come home, they're nickeled and dimed. We hear again and again how we somehow can't afford it.

And THAT is the crux of the matter. I firmly believe that we CAN afford it. If we can afford all the money and the lavish spending pumped into war-making, if we can find the money for that in WHATEVER circumstances there are, then by God we can find the money for THIS. FUNDING. YES that means higher taxes. But we can find the money THERE, TOO. I'd take that one straight to the koch brothers and adelson and the rest of 'em. And Bill Gates and Steven Spielberg and Warren Buffet and George Soros and every last one of the Wall Streeters and banisters and tell them THEIR freedom isn't free either. THEY HAVE TO COUGH IT UP, TOO. If the koch brothers, alone, are each worth some 40+ BILLION dollars, how 'bout they each cough up one of those billions? So they'd each be worth 39+ BILLION dollars instead. Gee, what pain, what pain. Seems to me they could absorb that without even feeling it.

Seems to me all the shortcomings we've seen in the system can only be fixed by FUNDING. Not enough hospital supervision? Well, we're gonna HAVE TO hire and train more people. More sets of eyeballs on every nurse and doctor who puts on and takes off any of that protective gear. MORE case workers. MORE specialists and redundant systems in place to make double- and triple-sure. MORE equipment. MORE protective gear, and better protective gear. And MORE safe disposal arrangements. And all of that costs money. Every last bit of that costs money. And I'm sorry. But we need to spend that money. So we need to raise that money. That's funding we need! Because our lives depend on it.

Everything we have in place now is still basically insufficient to anticipate demand. And we heard in that hearing just now - people lie. People don't tell the truth. People won't always tell you where they traveled from. SO YOU NEED EXTRA PRECAUTIONS IN PLACE, which means EXTRA PEOPLE on hand to backstop and double-check and even triple-check. Which means you have to hire and train those extra people which means you have to spend more money. It's gonna cost more money. Sorry, but that's the - pardon the pun - bottom line.

We cannot meet this crisis or get a handle on it by doing the minimums and then hoping that takes care of it. We have to jump on it with full force! The nurse on TV now, points out - "they gave us an optional seminar to go to..." "OPTIONAL"? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME???? SHEESH!!!!!!!!

[uponit7771]

206. +1, I place the onus on the hospital...not even the CDC...that place should NOT be paying someone...

... millions and turning sick people away...

These places are morally bankrupt...

My cousin used to do the finance for these places, they are morally bankrupt

[calimary]

250. We got whiffs of that during the coverage today. When it was pointed out that

we don't have squat for vaccines because Big Pharma isn't motivated to do anything about it. No profit in it. So they aren't interested.

We MUST take the money factor out of health care. MUST. That is an absolute essential MUST. Right up there on top of the priority list along with taking money out of political campaigns. Our health care should NOT be a for-profit operation.

[damnedifIknow]

59. Ebola patient had CDC OK to fly from Cleveland to Dallas

DALLAS, Texas -- The second Dallas nurse diagnosed with Ebola shouldn't have traveled on a commercial flight due to her exposure to the virus prior to her diagnosis, said Tom Frieden, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

But the CDC has now confirmed that it gave Amber Vinson permission to make a trip from Cleveland to Dallas."

http://www.wwltv.com/story/news/health/2014/10/16/ebola-patient-had-cdc-ok-to-fly-from-cleveland-to-dallas/17356545/

[uponit7771]

62. +1, there was nothing wrong with Amber ... 99.5 is normal temp for healthy WOMAN.. for a guy maybe

... not...

http://www.webmd.com/first-aid/body-temperature

What is normal body temperature?

Most people think of a "normal" body temperature as an oral temperature of 98.6 °F (37 °C). This is an average of normal body temperatures. Your temperature may actually be 1°F (0.6°C) or more above or below 98.6 °F (37 °C). Also, your normal body temperature changes by as much as 1°F (0.6°C) throughout the day, depending on how active you are and the time of day. Body temperature is very sensitive to hormone levels and may be higher or lower when a woman is ovulating or having her menstrual period.

[LostInAnomie]

67. Ehh... her actions were still pretty fucking stupid.

Know you were exposed to ebola? Stay the fuck off of planes.

It's not that hard. Sure the CDC fucked up, but that doesn't make up for the fact that Vinson knew she had been exposed and got on a fucking plane.

[uponit7771]

91. She had been exposed but no signs of anything being wrong with her including the NORMAL temp of 99.5

... for a woman.


I don't blame her, the onus is not on her seeing she checked and double checked looking at the fact there was nothing wrong with her

[LostInAnomie]

100. Apparently, 99.5 isn't normal for her or she wouldn't have called the CDC.

[uponit7771]

108. Not the case, she could've been taken the extra step... I would've and if cleared would've

... still gone too seeing I was told that there was little chances of getting it or spreading it because ebola wasn't a contagious disease.


There's little I've read that makes me lean away from the health officials really screwing up here... from there the onus belongs on them

[LostInAnomie]

122. Not me. If I know I've been exposed to Ebola I stay away from people.

Seems like common sense to me. This is especially true if I know my temperature is on the upswing.

[uponit7771]

141. There was NO WAY she could've known that she was exposed to the diseases vs exposed

... to someone who had it.

My cousin had aides, that doesn't mean I have it for hanging around him giving him hugs etc...

I'm still in agreement with the OP, the focus should be on the HC Officials

[LostInAnomie]

149. What!? She is a nurse that has been exposed to the bodily fluids of a known ebloa patient.

She was told by the CDC to self monitor because she had been exposed. She has no excuse for taking the risk.

AIDS is completely different that Ebola. From symptoms, to transmission, to outcomes, the comparison is apples and oranges.

[uponit7771]

184. I'm disputing useing the world "exposure" here because it's obvlious, it could mean anything and...

.... be too widely applied to a tone of the other diseases relative to Ambers "exposure".

She did self monitor, there were no signs of risk... not even a fever....

She even called the CDC....


Amber followed the rules and took extra precaution seeing there were NO SIGNS of something being wrong with her other than a NORMAL 1 deg rise in temp...


What should've happned is a test by the CDC for the virus

[LostInAnomie]

194. Exposure has a specific medical definition.

exposure

Type: Term

Pronunciation: eks-pō?zhūr

Definitions:
1. A condition of displaying, revealing, exhibiting, or making accessible.
2. In dentistry, loss of hard tooth structure covering the dental pulp due to caries, dental instrumentation, or trauma.
3. Proximity or contact with a source of a disease agent in such a manner that effective transmission of the agent or harmful effects of the agent may occur.
4. The amount of a factor to which a group or individual was exposed; in contrast to the dosage, the amount that enters or interacts with the organism.

http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=31075

I'm guessing whatever other diseases she had been exposed to in the course of her career aren't killing people by the thousands in other countries with a +70% fatality rate.

If there were no signs of risk to concern her, she wouldn't have called the CDC.

Her trip was selfish, reckless endangerment of the lives of others.

[uponit7771]

204. I don't see ANYWHERE saying she exposed as highlighted... no where.

If there were no signs of risk to concern her, she wouldn't have called the CDC.

My understanding there was NO CALL IN RELATING TO HER TEMP... she stated her temp while on the call not called because of her temp...

There's no one who's printed that...

Calling the CDC to make sure she can fly on the plane is what I read... I could have it wrong




She followed the rules...... the focus should not be on her

[snappyturtle]

145. +1000

Hopefully no one who came in contact with Vinson will develope ebola but if one does........

[riqster]

264. Only if she puked, shat, or bled on them.

Everybody else is OK.

[The CCC]

68. All the A**holes who are Insulting the Flying Ebola Nurse: Shut Your F***ing Faces

While there is more than enough blame to go around. This woman deliberately got on a plane knowing she was sick after having been exposed to a person she knew had a highly contagious disease.

[uponit7771]

82. This is false, she was not sick and 99.5 is a normal temp for a healthy woman. Talking heads calling

...it a fever is what made me look it up and as usual...

They're wrong


http://www.webmd.com/first-aid/body-temperature

What is normal body temperature?

Most people think of a "normal" body temperature as an oral temperature of 98.6 °F (37 °C). This is an average of normal body temperatures. Your temperature may actually be 1°F (0.6°C) or more above or below 98.6 °F (37 °C). Also, your normal body temperature changes by as much as 1°F (0.6°C) throughout the day, depending on how active you are and the time of day. Body temperature is very sensitive to hormone levels and may be higher or lower when a woman is ovulating or having her menstrual period.

[etherealtruth]

80. I particularly love nurse and health care workers

They, however, are not beyond reproach ...... most realize and take their personal responsibility very seriously.

The nursing staff was thrown into an untenable situation in Dallas while trying to care for a patient with ebola (i completely blame the hospital administration ... any first year nursing student, medical student, PT student understands infection control and clearly understood they were understaffed, under-trained and not provided adequate equipment) ..... however ..... this does not give license to surrendering knowledge and judgment.

[uponit7771]

85. There were no signs anything was wrong with her, 99.5 is NOT a "temperature" for a healthy woman...

... and I'd put good money on it that NONE... NOT ONE Of these HC Authorities told these HC Givers that they'd have to forfiet their lives as they know it for a month because they took the assignment of caring for Duncan

[etherealtruth]

144. I agree that no one was told anything

this hospital did not even have a coherent infection control/ isolation procedure in place ... however .... knowing that she was FORCED to work in conditions that (she had to be aware) did not follow basic isolation for infectious disease protocols (one learns this in nursing school... I would not expect anyone to be proficient without practice and fault the hospital, again) .... after experiencing this ... a 99.5 temp should have given this nurse great pause.


I clearly remember the early days of the AIDS epidemic (granted HIV is less transmissible ..... but let me tell you, there was a lot of confusion), I worked with a great many AIDS patients .... in the mid-1980s there were a lot of knowns, a few unknowns and a lot of hysteria ... had I suspected exposure I knew I had responsibilities.

It is grossly unfair to the direct care staff that took care of Mr. Duncan; however, it was a situation that was thrust upon her and one she should have been aware of

[valerief]

86. The only ones to blame are the world leaders with the knowledge and resources

to have kept this horrible disease in check.

They are the ONLY ones to blame. No one else.

[KingCharlemagne]

134. They couldn't be bothered with it so long as it was perceived to be a (mostly)

West African problem. So the blame is doubly theirs, imo, both for their negligence and for their racism.

[janlyn]

90. I am sure she was told,

as were people via the media, that Ebola is really, really hard to catch! I can think of several people on DU calling people paranoid that were worried healthcare workers who worked with Duncan,might get sick!
Because Ebola is really, really hard to catch!

[uponit7771]

92. Yes, that's why I posted an OP yesterday... basically people said we'd have to be swimming in

...the stuff to catch it..

That' what I heard on the news too

[LostInAnomie]

102. +1

[Iggo]

94. Punishment fetishists think blaming is solving.

[riqster]

106. And that blaming the wrong people is OK, too.

[TerrapinFlyer]

97. "She put her life on the line".. so I get that means she can put everyone else's life too!

great logic...

I expect a professional in the medical field to be more careful.

I blame Amber Vinson for not being careful and putting everyone on her plane at risk.

And I will not be hushed by someone yelling on an internet forum.

[KitSileya]

128. +1 I agree.

And welcome to DU!

[Feral Child]

103. Eloquent!

I agree with you completely, but I did enjoy coasting down-thread, drifting lazily past the eddies of emotionality displayed.

Many in this thread seem to feel very personally offended by the woman. Might be a vitamin D deficiency in some posters. Like, if they won't push away from the computer and go out in the sunshine now and then, they better start taking supplements.

There's a lot of hysteria on the subject of Ebola. It isn't Spanish Flu and this isn't 1917. Of course, I sympathize with the victims of this disease but the "test" it's given to the CDC and our system of response has been most enlightening.

Perhaps this will serve a lesson to our Aristocrats-w/o-Titles that we need to balance our concerns and that non-stop military spending isn't the answer to all problems. Instead, unfortunately, it seems to be a ginning up of the fear-factor that will be translated to more loss of civil liberties in order to make us "feel" safe; a placebo that engenders more symptoms, to use a medical metaphor for bad governance.

[riqster]

109. S'truth. The systematic starvation of our health infrastructure is criminal.

[Feral Child]

129. Going to bite them in the ass, too.

We're very lucky it's Ebola testing the system, rather than something more virulent. The only solution Nature has for human interference is an epidemic/pandemic and we're overdue...

[liberalhistorian]

105. Sorry, but no.

And the vitriolic, hateful way of communicating will not get anyone to listen, frankly. Yes, the CDC was wrong to tell her it was okay to fly and they need to get their heads out of their asses. But she was also wrong to fly and damn well should have known better. But what SHE wanted to do was more important than endangering hundreds of others throughout the country.

[uponit7771]

111. Why? There was NOTHING wrong with her, No signs of sickness, told the disease isn't contagious

... no signs that she contracted any of the disease and we have NO Proof that the HC Officials told the care givers that they'd basically have to give up their lives as they know it the second they were assigned Duncan.



No one is perfect and there are probably some things she cuold've done different but there's reason, IMHO, to lean on the side that the onus was on her

[liberalhistorian]

115. It is well-known that the incubation

period is 21 days or even longer. She was directly caring for the Dallas patient. She had a fever when she got on the plane, which should have been a major clue to her. Given the known incubation period, she should have known better than to have gotten on a damned plane and flown halfway across the country and back. PERIOD. There is NO EXCUSE for this at all.

[uponit7771]

120. She did NOT have a fever, that's what talking heads are saying and not a medical fact.. There were

... none of the preamble signs that she was sick with anything.

99.5 is a normal temperature for a woman

What is normal body temperature?

Most people think of a "normal" body temperature as an oral temperature of 98.6 °F (37 °C). This is an average of normal body temperatures. Your temperature may actually be 1°F (0.6°C) or more above or below 98.6 °F (37 °C). Also, your normal body temperature changes by as much as 1°F (0.6°C) throughout the day, depending on how active you are and the time of day. Body temperature is very sensitive to hormone levels and may be higher or lower when a woman is ovulating or having her menstrual period.

[TM99]

150. Actually yes there was something wrong.

In the course of her work, she was exposed. She was infected. While it was not visible yet with a fever or other signs and symptoms, yes, she was indeed sick. The virus was in her system, and she was 'coming down' with Ebola.

No one is perfect. And there have been a lot of screw ups in several different arenas, but I am sorry but you are dead wrong on this.

As an adult in a medical profession, she has the responsibility to make informed decisions that directly pertain to her work. She was narcissistic and self-entitled. She took a risk that may have endangered her family and strangers. She had a choice. She could have waited two more weeks to make sure that she was in the clear. She didn't. That is on her and her alone.

You can swear at me all you want. You can say I am blaming a victim all you want. You can say this is an attack on healthcare works. It is all bullshit. She is an adult. She is an educated medical professional. She made a very poor choice. If she knew she had been exposed and potentially infected with any pathogen and then broke precautions at her hospital by potentially putting, say, a cancer patient at risk for exposure, she would be out of a job. It would be negligence and malfeasance. This is no different. She knew the risks were there, and apparently, she just didn't give a fuck. What she wanted was more important than the risk it might cause others.

So yes, I will hold her culpable for her actions and if anyone she has exposed becomes ill then yes, she is then directly responsible and fully to blame. Hopefully if she doesn't die from the disease itself, she will then be held accountable as an adult for her selfish and irresponsible actions.

Furthermore, what the fuck is this bullshit you keep spewing about 'giving up their lives'? Professionals in many professions especially healthcare give up much on a daily basis as part of their careers. When I was on call for a suicide watch at a treatment center I was employed at, it didn't matter if it was my birthday or my & my wife's anniversary, if that call came in, I was expected to get back to the center asap. In your bizarre world of tortured logic, fuck that poor girl who was on watch, my birthday or anniversary was way more important than her life.

[liberalhistorian]

171. Thank you, you pretty much

encapsulated my thinking and said it better than I did. And I'm really annoyed with the "giving up their lives" bit. As you say, there are many professions where that is the case. My mother was a teacher at a juvenile reformatory for boys for over thirty years and often had to deal with very dangerous situations that were endangering to her. She always did her best to never, ever endanger anyone else even if it would have been to her advantage.

And I'm really resentful of the cursing and ranting at anyone who disagrees in the slightest-NOT good at all.

[uponit7771]

176. Please show proof that she KNEW she was infected? Exposed could mean ANYTHING it's too oblivious...

... I'm "exposed" to aids from my cousin that does NOT mean I've got the virus.

Great, we know NOW that were was something wrong there was NO WAY she knew something was wrong with her she didn't self diagnose for the virus just symptoms and when she came up with some she called the CDC and they cleared her.

She followed the rules, and people are blaming her...

I don't think that's right

regards

[TM99]

188. Thank you for making the point.

She didn't know. All she did know was the reality - she worked with an Ebola patient who died, she worked under poorly managed conditions, she knew her co-worker was infected, she knew that she had a higher probability of getting Ebola, and she still made a choice to leave Dallas and fly to Cleveland.

The CDC did NOT, and I repeat again, they did NOT clear her for flying from Dallas to Cleveland. They fucked up in clearing her for the return visit, and they are responsible for that poorly made decision.

So, how were you 'exposed' to AIDS? Did y'all share needles? Did you get a blood transfusion? If you mean you are just around your cousin who has AIDS, your ignorance is showing terribly. Because, if you had actually been exposed to AIDS by your cousin, then you would have had a blood test, and then you would presumably not share needles or have unprotected sex with anyone for at least a few weeks until you were retested and confirmed not exposed.

According to your logic here in this thread, you would be one hell of an asshole if you were truly exposed to AIDS and then made conscious decisions and choices that might be putting at risk a lover, friend or co-worker in getting AIDS.

As a fucking nurse, she knows the basics of Ebola transmission and its severity and differences from HIV/AIDS as well, and she chose to ignore them for her own selfish actions. She didn't follow the rules of her profession and that is not right.

[uponit7771]

192. How was she "exposed" to ebola using the same examples?! SHE WASN'T!!! Exposed is WAY to oblivious..

...and assumptuous... we have no idea if she wore the proper materials ....


NO IDEA

As a fucking nurse, she knows the basics of Ebola transmission

Link and quote to her knowing the basics of VHF transmission

I'll patiently wait for your answer to this query



P.S. You're making the same assumptions everyone else is making is that the HCGs at that care facility were FULLY informed by officials..

FULLY....

[KitSileya]

208. Are you assuming she *doesn't* know how diseases her patients have are transmitted?

If she doesn't know how the different diseases her patients have are transmitted, or if she didn't immediately read up on it as much as possible when she got a patient with a disease with 70% fatality rate, she deserves to have her nurse's license stripped from her.

[uponit7771]

213. Not EVERY SINGLE ONE of them!! We're not talking about diseases" we're talking about VHFs

... one particular disease.

There's no proof that she was given or know how VHFs like ebola were spread...

come on, we were being told that it wasn't contagient... I don't see her knowning something that different from what the public was being told

[KitSileya]

217. No not each and every one of them. But the ones her patients had?

You damn well know she should know how they are transmitted. She would be an awful nurse if she didn't. As would any doctor who treated him. And the CDC. The hospital and the CDC is definitely, no doubts about it, to blame for Pham and Vinson being infected. They handled the matter inadequately - the CDC with not ensuring that their guidelines were the most stringent possible wrt to protective gear, and the hospital for not providing their employees with adequate protective gear, even if they had to fly it in from somewhere, and quarantining both patient and the health care givers who had cared for him with inadequate gear.

It's a matter of reading on the internet - checking websites and seeing news broadcasts from other countries - to see it. Heck, the BBC World Service explained it in less than one minute - my newspaper had a picture of a mural of how ebola infects for those who cannot read. Bodily fluids - any contact with bodily fluids exposes you to the virus. That means any skin contact with bodily fluids. That means inhalation or ingestion of bodily fluids - including projectile bodily fluids, such as vomit and diarrhea. That means touching protective gear with bodily fluids on them - even bodily fluids not visible to the naked eye - exposes you to risk. That means that if there was any chance that any part of her was exposed to bodily fluids, she was at risk. Her gear wasn't adequate. The nurses knew it. they taped their throats because the gear didn't cover them properly. Pham got sick, and Vinson knew it by the second plane ride. And so she is to blame for risking others after she was put at risk herself by her employer.

[TM99]

215. You are being utterly ridiculous.

She worked with an Ebola patient under improper cautionary procedures and was very aware of her co-worker succumbing to the virus prior to her trip to Cleveland.

She does not need to be an epidemiologist, however, as a nurse, one must assume that she received sufficient training in infectious diseases and infectious disease controls to understand the reasonable risks and the potential pitfalls of her selfish actions.

You are attempting to put the responsibility on anyone expect the actual person herself. The other nurse, Pham, was in the exact same situation. Fully informed or not, she acted responsibly - choosing a wait and see approach with minimal to no contact and once aware of a possible illness, zero contact.

Stop defending narcissistic behavior from an educated and reasonably well-informed adult who if capable of holding a job in the medical profession is also capable of responding to and acting upon reasonable risks associated with her profession.

[Skittles]

259. THANK YOU

people are acting like this woman is a child who had to be told what to do - she is an educated professional and I am sick of hearing that not agreeing with her actions mean we think her employer and the CDC can do no wrong

[snagglepuss]

239. +1

[LostInAnomie]

125. +1

[Helen Borg]

132. She is an American hero, when you think about it.

She works every single day to save lives. Pretty much like the other "heroes", policepeople, firepeople, and so on. I object to this use of the word hero, but if we call them heroes, she is a hero too.

[marions ghost]

154. Yes

and OK, maybe she has made a mistake. But who would want to trade places with her? Amber Vinson is one of the brave and selfless health workers among us who are so often taken for granted. She saw Mr. Duncan die of this. It is only normal and human NOT to think you might have contracted the same awful thing, if you have no symptoms. Don't we all do this when we think we've been close to an ill person?

What good does it do to blame the VICTIMS of this terrible disease? This is really heartless.
Mistakes were made, perhaps on the CDC's part also. And responsibility must be taken.

As is common to say to soldiers who served on the front lines--"thank you for your service to humanity, Amber."

[randome]

156. How would you know? Maybe she's a piss-poor nurse, for all ANYONE knows.

She works every single day? What makes you think that?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[merrily]

159. Whether or not she is a piss poor nurse or works every day, she did not refuse to care for

a very sick person or call in sick to avoid doing that.

[Helen Borg]

212. Hard to get Ebola by being an absenteeist. Just saying...

[arthritisR_US]

136. I'm sorry but I would posit that people stop victim blaming period. Ignorance

of this disease has been the greatest contributor of the spread of this disease.

[randome]

160. You can hear the excitement in their posts about who to blame.

The CDC and the nurse and Dallas have enough to worry about without DU filling up the ether with opportunistic diatribes.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[arthritisR_US]

175. That's my take too. Demonize the worlds pathetic response to West Africa's plight if they must. nt

[In_The_Wind]

137. DU Rec!

[treestar]

155. Yes

in fact, shit happens. I never understand why people have to rush to find somebody to blame. The world would apparently run perfectly if it weren't for the mistakes of other people. I never make mistakes, seems to be the attitude. Or, shit doesn't just happen. The fruit bats are to blame. Nature is to blame.

[fadedrose]

164. Erin O'Brien

on her program (CNN) was very harsh on Amber. Frontsomethng, or maybe not, I forget.

She doesn't seem to like Obama either.

I've been watching her for a few months to get away from Tweety for a while, but I think I've about had enough of her....Tweety isn't as mean, rude and interrupts people a lot, but not as mean.

8:00 is probably a good time to finish dishes and take a shower....

[MoonRiver]

179. I like to watch Jane Valez-Mitchel during that hour.

I love her segments on animal rights, and she is pretty good at nailing the legal issues. I also don't like Erin or Tweety much.

[fadedrose]

189. I had to put her name in Search

because I never heard of her, and likely never would have, because everytime I put on Channel 31, Headline News, Nancy Grace is on, who I can't stand, so I avoid HLN.

Will give her a try tonight.

I remember the old HLN.....what have they done to it? Who said Nancy Grace was so popular and loved?

It used to be that anytime I stopped a project or had limited TV time, I put on HLN to find out everything that hat happened, and if worthwhile, would find the story in greater detail somewhere else.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[MoonRiver]

196. You're welcome.

I don't like Nancy Grace either. But Jane has a gentler and more thoughtful manner. Plus she doesn't put any of her guests on the hot seat, trying to tear them apart. She gets passionate, but in a reasonable way. Every night she brings out her little dog Rico and talks about a variety of animal rights issues.

[MoonRiver]

235. I just found out that her show is being cancelled due to budget cuts! Arrrrrrgh!

I think there will soon be an online petition to bring her back. Will make an OP when I appears.

[Nye Bevan]

210. So are the words "asshole" and "fucking" acceptable or not?

If they are not, why use them?
If they are, what's with the asterisks?
Are there any DUers who would be mortally offended by "fucking asshole" but think that "f***ing a**hole" is just peachy?

[riqster]

226. The OP is a repost of a blog, which is hosted elsewhere.

The asterisks help ensure posts aren't mistakenly blocked as porn in some search engines.

At least, that's the god-damned motherfucking shit-assed advice some asshole gave me.

[FarPoint]

211. Ambers gut instincts told her not to fly.

Here clinical knowledge was prompting her to remain essentially isolated. Calling the CDC several times reminds me of one of kids going to another parent looking for the answer that they want verses knowing say, they are not permitted to do an activity per the other parent.

Amber wanted what she wanted...rationalized her choice and ignored her clinical and gut instincts. That was selfish and extremely dangerous.

[riqster]

227. Perhaps. Mind-reading is tricky, though.

One could just as easily assume she is a detail freak who likes to over-comply with policies and procedures.

[FarPoint]

231. I thought about that too...

Ultimately, she knew to stay put.

[woo me with science]

220. I can't disagree with this.

Actually, it's very satisfying.

[riqster]

224. Thanks. Now and again, the hulk comes out, as it were.

[randome]

230. "The flying ebola nurse." I see a new ABC series in the works.

Last edited Thu Oct 16, 2014, 05:45 PM - Edit history (1)

And her protege.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[customerserviceguy]

251. I agree, except for one thing

I would add Nina Pham to the list of people in this mess who is NOT to blame.

[greatlaurel]

252. Good post, this brave young woman put her life on the line and was let down by her employers.

In addition, the GOP has steadily cut funding to the CDC and NIH for more than a decade. The right wing creeps have been instrumental in preventing an Ebola vaccine from being available already. Thank you, Grover Norquist and the other GOP quislings.

I know of 3 universities here in Ohio where funding for biomedical research grants have been slashed and vital research has been stopped. Elections have consequences and by voting for the GOP or not voting at all, people are dying from diseases that could be treated if only the funding to create and complete the needed research.

One small quibble about Mr. Duncan. Even with the Ebola outbreak in full swing in Liberia, people are still coming down with the same old diseases like malaria. The poor young woman he helped may have been easily assumed to have malaria. Malaria has not stopped its ravages in these countries just because Ebola has added to the misery in West Africa. I did read (but cannot find the link, will add later if I find it) that her Ebola diagnosis did not occur until after her tragic death.

All the victims of this dread disease deserve our deepest sympathy.

Well said, sir, well said. Thank you.

[Heidi]

262. Well, _that_ was persuasive.

I agree in principle that health care workers in general get less respect than they should, but your incendiary approach is not what convinced me.

[WinkyDink]

265. AV sought permission to fly because she was reluctant to do so on her own say-so, because SHE KNEW

she was not well.

ANYWAY, HER UNCLE IS REFUTING HER CLAIM OF THAT CALL.

There have been too many prevaricators in this saga, and I include the CDC in that list.

[erpowers]

267. She Deserves Some Blame

I may be wrong here, but to me saying she does not share blame for what she did would be like me robbing someone's house, getting caught, and then saying I am not to blame for robbing that person's house because I had been robbed days before. For multiple reasons the cops, the mayor, and real estate agent are the only people who should be blamed. Just like I would be to blame for the house I robbed Amber Vinson is to blame for what she did after coming into contact with Thomas Eric Duncan.

It is sad what happened to Ms. Vinson. However, she is solely responsible for what she did after she came into contact with Mr. Duncan. She is to blame for getting on a plane, flying across country, and going to a bridal shop and trying on multiple dresses. She could have avoided contact with people for 20 days. She knew that she had come into contact with Ebola.

[MoonRiver]

273. I won't give her a pass.

She knew the risks, and then selfishly decided to do what SHE wanted to do, regardless.