Saudi Arabia Sentences Cleric to Crucifixion

[Babel_17]

Last edited Thu Oct 16, 2014, 11:54 AM - Edit history (1)

From TalkLeft

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2014/10/16/6157/3373/foreignaffairs/Saudi-Arabia-Sentences-Cleric-to-Crucifixion

By Jeralyn, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Thu Oct 16, 2014 at 05:01:57 AM EST
Tags: Saudi Death Penalty, death penalty (all tags)
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These kinds of headlines make me find 3 confirming reports before writing about them, in case there's a language difference as to the use of some words, like "crucifixion. In this case, it means what we think it means.

Nimr Baqer al-Nimr, a reformist cleric, has been sentenced to death by crucifixiton , the country's harshest punishment. He will be beaheaded and his body will be tied to two perpendicular pieces of wood. He'll be strung up and his severed head will be by him. This barbarity will take place in the public square severed head will be place by him. The event takes place in town square, with the public watching.

What was al-Nimr's sin? He preached against the Saudi King, arguing for civil rights. and an end to corruption and discrimination against minorities. [More...]

I used the search feature to see if this was posted. Wow, just putting "Saudi Arabia" into DU's search reveals disturbing results.

About TalkLeft: http://www.talkleft.com/special/mission

Edit: As was pointed out, this crucifixion only happens after the cleric is killed by a beheading.
P.S. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Saudi_Arabia

[madokie]

1. The BFEE's bestest of friends

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bush+and+saudi+king+photos

[Babel_17]

2. If anyone sees/hears about this on TV or the radio ...

If anyone sees/hears about this on TV or the radio, please, post it here. Or if there is other news that is thread worthy, please start one.

The government of Saudi Arabia is the world's partner. This outrage needs to be called out for what it is.

[Ichingcarpenter]

3. He a Shia Muslim ..... which is important

because of religious and political consequences this has for the Muslim world. Although a Shia Muslim he was born and raised in Saudi Arabia.

Iran is Shia.

[get the red out]

4. Horrific what is done to citizens by their own government

Saudi Arabia is simply a terrible place. I am as disgusted with our own government's alliance with these monsters as I am the monsters themselves.

[snooper2]

6. careful, somebody will probably be here soon saying we should respect their culture

[DrDan]

9. I would say that a country that has put 30 to death so far this year has little credibility in

criticizing another culture

[Arkansas Granny]

12. But, but, but . . . . that's different We use "civilized" methods of execution.

[DrDan]

13. oh yeah - I forgot - our finely-tuned electric chairs are admired around the world for their

effectiveness in state-sponsored killing

damned Saudis, how dare they upstage us

[tblue]

32. And our "humane" make-do drug cocktails

Beheading may be more humane. Gah! I can't stand the thought of any of this.

[QuestionAlways]

51. In a few cases it was less then "civilized"

It was torture that lasted for hours

[Arkansas Granny]

55. agreed

[Adrahil]

15. Well, what if it's not the "country" criticizing?

I oppose the death penalty. I feel perfectly justified in criticizing it wherever I see it.

[edhopper]

17. How about a country

that can put you to death simply for criticizing the culture.

Do you see a difference between there and here?

[DrDan]

19. I think it is wrong for any reason

[edhopper]

22. but you don't think

we should criticize them?

[DrDan]

30. I think it is hypocritical

they kill for the wrong reason, we do it for the right reasons?

imo state-sponsored killing is simply wrong

[edhopper]

35. true

and it should be condemned wherever it is.

I also find it hypocritical to condemn beheadings by one Islamic group while staying silent when another Islamic group does the same.

[whathehell]

42. Hypocritical?...Um, no..You've heard the phrase "cruel and unusual punishment"?

I'm not a big fan of the death penalty, but one can hardly compare our methods,

even when gone 'wrong', to the raw barbarism of beheadings and crucifixions.

If anyone doubts this, I'd suggest they actually question death row inmates about their preferred method of executions -- Hell, give them a choice, if you'd like, but I'm
pretty sure they'd prefer our methods to the Saudis.

[DrDan]

45. yep - nothing barbaric about this

July 18, 1996. Indiana. Tommie J. Smith. Lethal Injection. Because of unusually small veins, it took one hour and nine minutes for Smith to be pronounced dead after the execution team began sticking needles into his body. For sixteen minutes, the execution team failed to find adequate veins, and then a physician was called.[37] Smith was given a local anesthetic and the physician twice attempted to insert the tube in Smith's neck. When that failed, an angio-catheter was inserted in Smith's foot. Only then were witnesses permitted to view the process. The lethal drugs were finally injected into Smith 49 minutes after the first attempts, and it took another 20 minutes before death was pronounced.

or this

July 18, 1996. Indiana. Tommie J. Smith. Lethal Injection. Because of unusually small veins, it took one hour and nine minutes for Smith to be pronounced dead after the execution team began sticking needles into his body. For sixteen minutes, the execution team failed to find adequate veins, and then a physician was called.[37] Smith was given a local anesthetic and the physician twice attempted to insert the tube in Smith's neck. When that failed, an angio-catheter was inserted in Smith's foot. Only then were witnesses permitted to view the process. The lethal drugs were finally injected into Smith 49 minutes after the first attempts, and it took another 20 minutes before death was pronounced.

or this

April 22, 1983. Alabama. John Evans. Electrocution. After the first jolt of electricity, sparks and flames erupted from the electrode attached to Evans's leg. The electrode burst from the strap holding it in place and caught on fire. Smoke and sparks also came out from under the hood in the vicinity of Evans's left temple. Two physicians entered the chamber and found a heartbeat. The electrode was reattached to his leg, and another jolt of electricity was applied. This resulted in more smoke and burning flesh. Again the doctors found a heartbeat. Ignoring the pleas of Evans's lawyer, a third jolt of electricity was applied. The execution took 14 minutes and left Evans's body charred and smoldering.

[whathehell]

49. Sure, it's just LIKE getting your head cut off in public..Ask death row inmates THEIR preference.

That should be the last word on the matter.

As for "barbaric", yes, it may be a matter of degree, but, no, sorry, none of that

compares to the ugly spectacle of public beheadings and crucifixions, Sorry.

[DrDan]

54. so the difference in state-sponsored killings comes down to whether they

are public or hidden from the public.

And death-row inmate preferences should be "the last word on the matter"?????

Got it.

[whathehell]

59. Um, no. There is that "cruel and unusual punishment" thing as well.

but now that you mention it, every country that eventually moved to

abolish executions, first decided AGAINST their public display,

so this would appear to be the first step in the process.

Have a nice day.

[DrDan]

64. got it - you have no concern with the torture involved with our execution methods

your concern lies with the public nature of the Saudi methods

at least you agree with the barbarism of our approaches

btw - do you know the details of how the Saudis perform this "ugly spectacle? You seem to have strong opinions.

[whathehell]

70. LOL..No, again, you haven't "got it". Torture -- physical and mental -- is my concern

and since I've already addressed the situation of our fuckups in administering lethal

injections, I'm not repeating myself because you so desperately need to "win"

this argument.

Hint: Improve your reading comprehension or acquire a better set of arguments.

[DrDan]

72. electric-chair torture? not an issue for you I guess

[whathehell]

80. You guess wrong, as usual, lol

Sorry, but your responses are growing lamer by the post and I've got things to do.

Have a nice evening.

[JonLP24]

83. Your post inspired me to look up that phrase

I always thought it wasn't well-defined as I had people tell me the death penalty was OK since it wasn't unusual but my first thought was wouldn't the first execution in 1976 (since the '72 suspension) be unusual? Again not well-defined as far as either is concerned but I found some helpful information, it turns out precedence which later decisions were based on was society's "evolving sense of decency".

-------------------------------
What exactly is a "cruel and unusual punishment" within the meaning of the Eighth Amendment? Did the framers intend only to ban punishments-- such as "drawing and quartering" a prisoner, or having him boiled in oil or burned at the stake--that were recognized as cruel at the time of the amendment's adoption? Or did they expect that the list of prohibited punishments would change over time as society's "sense of decency" evolved? One clue to the expectations of the framers comes from the debates of the First Congress that proposed the Eighth Amendment. On the floor of the House, Representative Livermore complained about the vagueness of the amendment's language: "It is sometimes necessary to hang a man, villains often deserve a whipping, and perhaps having their ears cut off, but are we in the future to be prevented from inflicting those punishments because they are 'cruel'?" Despite Livermore's objections, the vague language, subject to new interpretation over time, was left unchanged and the amendment ratified. The Supreme Court in the 1958 case of Trop v Dulles, expressly endorsed the view that what are prohibited "cruel and unusual punishments" should change over time, being those punishments which offend society's "evolving sense of decency."

The cases on this page suggest the wide variety of questions raised by the Eighth Amendment.

In Frances v Resweber, the Court considers whether a state can put a condemned man on an electric chair a second time, after sending a non-lethal bolt of electricity through him in its first attempt. By a 5 to 4 vote, the Court in Frances permits the second execution, with the majority concluding that the "cruelty" of the punishment at issue should not be measured by what happened in the past or the mental anguish the prisoner might feel as he awaits his second date with the chair. The four dissenters, however, contended that the sequence of events was relevant, and that no one would doubt but that a punishment that consisted of two jolts of electricity weeks apart would be cruel.

<snip>

In Hudson v McMillian (1992) the Court considered whether the beating by prison guards of a handcuffed inmate at Louisiana's Angola prison violated the inmate's Eighth Amendment rights. Voting 7 to 2, the Court found a violation of the cruel and unusual punishment clause even though the inmate suffered no permanent injuries or injuries that required hospitalization. In so holding, the Court rejected the lower court's argument that only beatings that caused "significant injuries" (read as injuries that were permanent or required hospitalization) rose to the level of Eighth Amendment violations. In dissent, Justices Thomas and Scalia argued (controversily) that the Eighth Amendment was intended to reach beatings by guards at all--rather only judicially-imposed sentences.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/cruelunusual.html

Guess which two dissenters were for the beating by the prison guard? Scalia & Thomas. Gotta be the worst tag-team in SC history.

[whathehell]

85. That's nice..

You can put me on record as opposing beatings by prison guards too.


In the meantime, all in favor of public beheadings say "Aye"

[Sam1]

77. Here in the US it depends on what bar you are in!

[get the red out]

16. You were right

Beep! There is no issue now, my thinking has been officially realigned, the US MUST BE HATED THE US MUST BE HATED; assimilation complete. BEEP!

[whathehell]

31. Bingo!...The "crucifixion apologists" have taken the stage!

Trying to equate electric chairs and lethal injections gone wrong with Crucifixions!!!

I didn't think ANYONE could bend over backwards THIS far, but once again,

The PC Police have proven me wrong.

Let's bring back crucifixions, people!..Consider the spectacle and all.

[tblue]

38. The death is by beheading.

Putting a dead body on a cross is grotesque but this isn't the same as Jesus' crucifixion (nails in hands & feet, victim left to suffocate over several days).

I don't know what would be more painful, death by beheading or by 2 hours of a botched lethal injection. At least the beheading is quick. The Saudis do it in public for all to see. It's horrifying and serves a very dark purpose, but at least it's honest. We keep all the suffering hidden, using immobilizing drugs and, if things go wrong, drawing the curtains. Doesn't make it humane, not for the person being killed.

I don't believe one method is more civilized than the other. The US just should not put itself in the same category as Saudi Arabia on any subject.

It's all ghastly. Whole thing is making me nauseous.

[whathehell]

46. Well, that's a big relief..Who could object to that?

"I don't believe one method is more civilized than the other" -- Really?

I do, and, apparently, so does every other country in the Western World,

You say you "don't know which would be more painful, death by beheading, or by 2 hours

of a botched lethal injection"?

Well, for one thing, the lethal injection IS an aberration. We ARE trying to avoid those*.

Beheadings, on the other hand, are just "business as usual" for the

Saudis, and yes, I think our method IS more civilized -- You've heard the phrase

"cruel and unusual punishment"?

Doubters should do a study of death row inmates and ask THEM which method they'd prefer...I'm betting they'd go with ours.

*One of the big reasons that CURRENT lethal injections are getting screwed up is the
fact of so many countries refusing to sell us the chemicals we used in the past.

[DrDan]

56. "and, apparently, so does every other country in the Western World" - you do

realize 51% of the U.N. members have abolished capital punishment.

In Europe, 98% of the countries have abolished it.

"civilized" state-sponsored killing - what a concept

[whathehell]

60. Yes I DO realize that, and you get the prize for utter and complete predictability,

as I knew someone would bring it up.

That being said, yes, I DO believe there are better and worse ways to die,

and you do too, I suspect, but that concession wouldn't help your narrative,

would it?...Gotcha.

[DrDan]

65. you seem to place a lot of faith in your view of death row inmates - may I ask for

a source for your claims

or just conjecture based on your personal biases/preferences

[whathehell]

68. Say whaaat?..I don't have a 'view' of death row inmates, beyond an

assumption regarding their views on the least cruel manner of death.

I'm just stating the obvious -- That the most RELEVANT and important

opinion regarding the LEAST humane manner of death would have to come

from those actually facing it.

[DrDan]

73. what is your assumption based on? anything relevant, or simply your own biases

[whathehell]

79. Common knowledge as to what constitutes "cruel & unusual punishment" in Western societies?

or maybe I'm just "biased" against the cutting off of heads..Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Drayden]

98. Then why are so many celebrating the lady with cancer

Who plans to end her life with a lethal injection, as a valid, comforting, positive choice? Why is it celebrated as a peaceful, positive option when a person decides to end their life due to illness with a lethal injection but considered a negative, barbaric death for lethal punishment? If you dispute the death penalty just state that, but you can't call lethal injection a peaceful means of dying for a terminally ill patient and a barbaric and cruel death for a death row inmate. Either it is a peaceful, calm death or it isn't.

[whathehell]

99. I think you've onfused me with someone else..

I never said that lethal injection was a "cruel barbaric" death.

[LanternWaste]

36. Before or after someone intentionally confuses "culture" with "government"?

Before or after someone intentionally confuses "culture" with "government", simultaneously advertising their own bias?

[hifiguy]

40. In a theocracy like Saudi Arabia

the culture and government are, practically speaking, one and the same.

And anyone who defends SA - and you do not in your post, let me be clear - is a moral and intellectual bankrupt. It is a cesspool of all that is worst in humanity.

[Nitram]

52. Snooper, I wonder why you so glibly disparage the concept...

...that just because another culture is different, it must somehow be inferior or "wrong." I'm sure you realize that those who encourage respect for other cultures are not talking about spectacles like this.

[JonLP24]

81. Who the hell would defend Saudi Arabia?

Specifically, the King and their government.

The entire culture shouldn't get the blame for an oppressive regime.

[merrily]

26. It may be more of an oilliance than an alliance.

If only this country had listened to Carter back in the 1970s. We would have been so much more oil independent now.

[tblue]

39. Bingo! And the Bushes loves them some oilmen.

Bosom buddies and partners in horrific crimes.

[merrily]

43. Sorry, all American Presidents love them. They have to. We're very oil dependent

and approval ratings go down when gas prices go up.

[get the red out]

47. I agree

Then deification of Ronald Reagan ended a lot of hopes for progress.

[merrily]

48. There was deification of Reagan and demonization of Carter, but the bottom line was money.

And we've had a lot of Presidents since Reagan, all of whom could have reversed him, the same way he reversed Carter had they chosen so to do.

[merrily]

53. PS. The most lasting effect of Reagan, IMO, is that his victory

provided the rationale for the DLC/Third Way types, for the institution of Super Delegates (tried, but failed to carry enough votes after McGovern's loss) and, in general, more and more movement by Democrats to, one way or the other, take Presidential primaries out of the hands of voters. (The Republicans followed the lead of the Democrats as to Super Delegates.)

As strong a leader as FDR was, some of his policies were voted out while he was still President. Reagan has not been President in 22 years, Dimson not in almost 5.

[n2doc]

5. Here's a link to another source

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/10/15/saudi_court_sentences_highprofile_shiite_cleric_to_death.html

[Babel_17]

20. Thanks

I neglected to embed that link. It should be clicked on as the story of the cleric is a moving one.

Al-Nimr’s family urged Saudi authorities to reconsider the sentence, given the cleric’s teachings to never use force against the government. “They use violent bullets, we will use the roar of the word,” al-Nimr said in a sermon in 2011.

In another sermon that year, al-Nimr stated: “It is not permitted to use weapons and spread corruption in society.”

[brooklynite]

7. Misleading

The OP is msleading; he is -not- being sentenced to "death by crucifixion", he's is being sentenced to death by beaheading, and his dead body is then being crucified.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Oh, well in that case it's just fine then!

The headline does not say 'death by crucifixion' and people who are aware of Saudi practices know exactly what crucifixion is there. This is not the first one. The display of dismembered corpses is a particular and separate act of brutality from the method of killing, this is the case in international law.

[Babel_17]

24. I don't disagree

In the news article headline, "crucifixion" is in quotation marks. But I didn't use them as they weren't in what I quoted. I'm not sure, but it seems possible that the sentence of crucifixion, in Saudi Arabia, does mean that the dead body is what gets put up. So, it's not death by crucifixion as we here might expect.

You're right to point it out. I'll leave the title as it is because it's a quote, and because it promotes learning about the Saudi practice. I think I should add a P.S. to the original post, though.

Edit: Ok, I see now you quoted the article itself. Sorry for not getting that. Huh, it looks like the quote from TalkLeft was from an earlier version of the article.

It reads at the moment:

"the judge upheld the country’s harshest sentence — “crucifixion” — where the decapitated body is publicly displayed. His brothers were reportedly detained after the sentencing."

A developing story, in more ways than one.

[whathehell]

34. Oh, that's MUCH nicer -- He's being beheaded & having his dead BODY crucified!

I don't really need a sarcasm thingy, do I?

[bklyncowgirl]

41. Crucifixion is a slow and tortuous way to die

Beheading is ugly but with a skilled executioner and a sharp sword fast. I am against the death penalty but there are degrees of barbarity.

[whathehell]

50. Beheading IS ugly, and, like I've suggested in other posts, if you gave death row prisoners

a choice, I'm pretty sure they'd veto the "beheading", swift as it may be.

[geek tragedy]

62. desecrating a corpse and putting it on public display is worse than what ISIS does nt

[LukeFL]

94. Thank you was going to post just that

There are people here with some nerve!!

[geek tragedy]

61. why, that's totally not barbaric, thank you for that vital clarificiation. nt

[edhopper]

10. You can expect a strong and immediate

silence from our Government.

Saudi oil and strategic place is too important to let something like a brutal medieval dictatorship get in the way.

[Johonny]

11. We have more people in prison than anyone else in the world

Is it better that we allow the shooting unarmed black men for appearing menacing than the dark-comical over the top Saudi execution method? We claim to be better at human rights and then we can't even lethally inject our own condemned to death prisoners with out *ing it up. The world is still a barbaric place and the US is only are better in "appearance" at times. Perhaps silence is all we shuld say until we clean up the stink in our own house.

[edhopper]

14. Agreed

until we look at why people are executed in Saudi Arabia.

Beheading for blasphemy, you don't think that deserves condemnation?

I think we can and should fight the way our system works while also talking about other nations.

[hifiguy]

25. Hey, the Saudis are open minded about executions.

You can be executed for apostasy or practicing witchcraft, too. And your last sentence makes the only point that needs to be made, sir.

[whathehell]

37. Right -- and you seriously imagine that's analogous to beheadings and crucifixions?

If that's not just your PC knee jerking, and you actually believe there's a real analogy here, I'd invite you to question our imprisoned population, even those on death row, and ask them whose "system" they'd prefer.

I'm betting they'd take ours -- by a WIDE margin.

[G_j]

67. both systems are barbaric

it's just a matter of degrees.

[nationalize the fed]

18. .

Beheading and Crucifixion is ok when your friends do it.

Drone bombing is nothing like it either. It's antiseptic and clean- no boots on ground. No bloody swords or crosses.

[merrily]

28. Not defending any of it, but

beheading gets only the intended target, so there's that.

[Rex]

21. So we bark at China when a cop hits a protester, how about when Saudi Arabia beheads

and crucifies a religious figure? The American government gonna make a big deal about that?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

27. Well, he wasn't a Christian, after all...

So that makes it all hunky dory apparently.

[merrily]

29. Not quite white, either. Or Euro. Poor guy is 0 for 3

[Rex]

33. Sadly, both of you are spot on.

0 for 3 indeed.

[LukeFL]

95. So he was a Muslim criticizing his own?

[geek tragedy]

63. not while SA can control the global price of oil, no. nt

[hifiguy]

23. Saudi Arabia.

The anus mundi. North Korea looks around the world and says "At least we're not the worst. There is always Saudi Arabia."

[geardaddy]

44. Crucifixion's a doddle.

But seriously, that is barbaric.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. The enemy of my enemy is my friend..or enemy...kinda my pal...but let's just give them money.

[KamaAina]

58. So Jesus came back as a Saudi dissident?

[Hotler]

66. Fox news and the Repugs should be going crazy over this....

and calling for us to bomb the militants over this. Oh wait, they are Saudi's, we kiss their ass. Never mind.

[Babel_17]

69. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Arabia

Methods and scope

Saudi Arabia has a criminal justice system based on a hardline and literal form of Sharia law reflecting a particular state-sanctioned interpretation of Islam.

The death penalty can be imposed for a wide range of offences[4] including murder, rape, false prophecy, blasphemy, armed robbery, repeated drug use, apostasy,[5] adultery,[6] witchcraft and sorcery[7] and can be carried out by beheading with a sword,[8] or more rarely by firing squad, and sometimes by stoning.

The 345 reported executions between 2007 and 2010 were all carried out by public beheading.[9] The last reported execution for sorcery took place in August 2014.[10][11] There were no reports of stoning between 2007 and 2010,[9] but between 1981 and 1992 there were four cases of execution by stoning reported.[12]

Crucifixion of the beheaded body is sometimes ordered.[7] For example, in 2009, the Saudi Gazette reported that "An Abha court has sentenced the leader of an armed gang to death and three-day crucifixion (public displaying of the beheaded body) and six other gang members to beheading for their role in jewelry store robberies in Asir."[13] (This practice resembles gibbeting, in which the entire body is displayed).

In 2003, Muhammad Saad al-Beshi, whom the BBC described as "Saudi Arabia's leading executioner", gave a rare interview to Arab News.[5] He described his first execution in 1998: "The criminal was tied and blindfolded. With one stroke of the sword I severed his head. It rolled metres away...People are amazed how fast [the sword] can separate the head from the body."[5] He also said that before an execution he visits the victim's family to seek forgiveness for the criminal, which can lead to the criminal's life being spared.[5] Once an execution goes ahead, his only conversation with the prisoner is to tell him or her to recite the Muslim declaration of belief, the Shahada.[5] "When they get to the execution square, their strength drains away. Then I read the execution order, and at a signal I cut the prisoner's head off," he said.[5]

As of 2003, executions were not announced in advance and could take place any day of the week. As a consequence of this and their status as the "only form of public entertainment" in Saudi Arabia "apart from football matches", they often generate large, quickly gathering crowds. Also as of 2003, photography and video of the executions was forbidden.[3]

[Babel_17]

71. What is different about Saudi Arabia?

North Korea and other nations, and groups, are as bad and arguably much worse.

In my opinion there is a difference in what happens in Saudi Arabia. Those other nations and groups don't receive de facto validation by the United States. Usually the opposite, afaik.

In Europe, they regularly condemn, or at least chide, the USA for our levels of incarceration and our use of the death penalty.

Israel gets protested and even gets boycotted for what is seen as their cruel treatment of Palestinians. Palestinian terrorists, and all murderers in the Middle East, get regularly called out by people of conscience.

The big exposes on Saudi Arabia, where are they? Yes, they aren't idiots and they have the money, influence, and talent, to massage, and just outright control or manipulate, public opinion and perceptions of their government.

But the bottom line is that their oil props up our way of life. Several times our Presidents have gone to the Saudis and gotten them to undermine OPEC, and the Saudi's immediate interests, to "turn the spigot on, full blast". Sometimes it wasn't about OPEC, maybe it was about a war, or threat of war. Or maybe it was about elections. (I'm speculating there)

So, our government, and our media with its ties to government and money, can't be counted on to do much. It's not like Saudi Arabia is Cuba and can be embargoed because .... (uh, hmmm ...)

But imo shaming has always had some power, and over a long time it can do some good.

[Babel_17]

75. Huh, I just now saw this

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e2fd08c6-554c-11e4-b750-00144feab7de.html#axzz3GM3Pu7UV

It's a deep game.

[Babel_17]

74. So, what’s it like to be beheaded there?

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/10/24/when-it-comes-beheadings-isis-has-nothing-over-saudi-arabia-277385.html

If you are a prisoner in Riyadh, the capital, you might be taken to the ocher-colored Deera Square, which has acquired a macabre sobriquet: Chop Chop Square. Before you arrive, police and security forces will have prepared the area. It may have been cordoned off to keep curious spectators at a distance, but they will congregate nonetheless.

You will be led to the center of the square, on the bare earth. According to one of Saudi Arabia’s state executioners, Mohammed Saad al-Beshi, who was interviewed in the Saudi newspaper Arab News in June 2003, your energy is likely to fade at this point, from sheer exhaustion and fear. You will not fight for your life, nor protest against your restraints.

At the square, you will be forced to your knees. Plastic bags are spread out over the surrounding area to catch the blood that will spill when your head is sliced off, with a single blow of the sword if you are lucky. When al-Beshi cuts off a hand, he says he cuts at a joint. “If it is a leg, the authorities specify where it is to be taken off, so I follow that.”

[samsingh]

76. there you go - the religon of peace once again

[Babel_17]

78. I see it as the laws of tyrants

They shape the system out of whatever is handy. Though shame on the clergy in Saudi Arabia for playing along.

[truebrit71]

82. But we daren't criticize them cos that's islamaphobic...

... or something

[whathehell]

86. That's right, because for some, the greatest sin of all is being "culturally intolerant".

[LukeFL]

96. Screw them it's not a religion of peace

It's a bulkshit and I will call it just like I see it

They want to eliminate Israel to take control then of Christian and entire world. Muslims are Not Tolerant to other religious practices and believes they want everyone being forced to believe with their views.

They want complete control. Even here in the US THEY WANT TO CHANGE OUR laws.
Even in Britain.

Tired of being tolerant to people who do not respect other views.

[Nye Bevan]

92. At the very least, point out Christian atrocities such as the Crusades,

or Catholics and Protestants burning each other at the stake, to give a sense of balance.

[LukeFL]

97. And when was this?

[Nye Bevan]

100. Yes, the point is that in terms of barbaric violence,

Islam right now is where Christianity was hundreds of years ago. Those who bring up the Crusades and the Salem Witch Trials only underline this point.

[hrmjustin]

84. Barbaric! just plain sick, inhuman, and evil!

[True Blue Door]

87. And yet somehow the Saudi monarchy is LESS Islamist than its people would prefer.

There needs to be some subtle social engineering of the Middle East, to somehow cultivate a general understanding of religious toleration and minority rights - because that's the only way that democracies can take hold in that kind of cultural soil without immediately committing suicide by popular theocracy.

I think we in the West have failed to adequately rationalize and articulate what these concepts are, because on some level we've relied on common assumptions that don't apply universally.

This is a deeper subject than it sounds on its surface: How do you communicate stable, tolerant, humane democracy to a people whose natural environment is none of those things? You can express the ideas intellectually, but democracy needs more than that - it has to be understood viscerally and emotionally. So how much do we unwittingly rely on subtexts that don't translate from temperate to desert ecosystems?

When intellectual arguments fight with what people feel, feelings win. So find a way to change the feelings.

[Babel_17]

90. A sense of being part of a larger Culture

I don't see the internet, TV and movies, or books, or music, as having done much to change the conservative current that runs so deep and strong.

[True Blue Door]

91. There's a vicious cycle of censorship and bigotry in the region.

It would be difficult to introduce novel moral concepts through entertainment media, because the censors - both religious and political - tend to be extremely petty and paranoid in rooting out ideas that challenge them.

[TheKentuckian]

88. When do the humanitarian bombings and embargoes start?

[Babel_17]

89. After the CNN expose

So, no time soon, it looks like. The price for silence got set at the pump.

[LukeFL]

93. What year was this? Because

According to my liberal family (I am a liberal too) Muslim is a very peaceful religion.

[Babel_17]

101. Saudis continue to voice support for Sheikh al-Nimr

http://www.abna.ir/english/service/middle-east-west-asia/archive/2014/10/21/645807/story.html

Saudis continue to voice support for Sheikh al-Nimr
October 21, 2014 _ 12:48 PM

People in Saudi Arabia have continued their demonstrations against the death sentence issued for a prominent Shia cleric.

People in Saudi Arabia have continued their demonstrations against the death sentence issued for a prominent Shia cleric.

According to reports on Monday, residents of the village of Awamiyah in the Qatif region of the kingdom’s Eastern Province took to the streets to condemn the death sentence issued for the Saudi cleric, Sheikh Nimr Baqir al-Nimr.

The Awamiyah protest, which came nearly one week after a court sentenced him to capital punishment, began on Sunday and is reportedly expected to last for three days.

[Babel_17]

102. Amnesty International

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/saudi-arabia-appalling-death-sentence-against-shi-cleric-must-be-quashed-20

Press releases
15 October 2014
Saudi Arabia: Appalling death sentence against Shi’a cleric must be quashed

A death sentence passed today against a dissident Shi’a Muslim cleric in Saudi Arabia for “disobeying the ruler”, “inciting sectarian strife” and “encouraging, leading and participating in demonstrations” after a deeply flawed trial is appalling and must be immediately quashed, said Amnesty International.

“The death sentence against Sheikh Nimr Baqir al-Nimr is part of a campaign by the authorities in Saudi Arabia to crush all dissent, including those defending the rights of the Kingdom’s Shi’a Muslim community,” said Said Boumedouha, Deputy Director of Amnesty International’s Middle East and North Africa Programme.

Sheikh al-Nimr’s brother, Mohammad al-Nimr, was reportedly arrested after the sentence was passed at the Specialised Criminal Court in Riyadh.