The economy is fucked

[cali]

yes, the stock marker is up. No that doesn't reflect the health of the economy. The economy is systemically fucked in that wages for the middle class and the working poor are stagnant or falling. There are lots of other indicators, like this:

Incredibly, subprime loans are driving the US economy—again

http://qz.com/272891/the-dirty-secret-is-that-subprime-loans-are-driving-the-us-economy/

You can call it a recovery, but who is benefiting? Clue: It's not the 99%

[woo me with science]

1. Thank you.

[font size=3]We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.
[font size=2]
-George Orwell [/font size]

[cali]

4. great quote. I've never seen it before.

[riqster]

54. Wow. Prophetic.

[Xipe Totec]

2. Oldest profession and all... nt

[Hutzpa]

3. Can I have my pony now, Cali?

[rhett o rick]

5. Right!. I mean some of the country is benefiting from the "recovery". Pointing out that it's the 1%

is really getting petty.

[Beowulf42]

6. Hmmm.

Petty? It's fundamental to the process of making a change in people's opinion about the way things have been corrupted and arranged by the plutocracy. Unless we can convey to the majority of people that the tax system, the gerrymandering, the major news media have all been restructured at the behest of the rich, we will never change the way things are. Non of this happened by accident. Do we think that a majority of congressmen woke up one day and thought, giving huge tax breaks to the rich and skewing the voting system were great ideas? No. These changes have been bought and paid for by the moneyed class, the multimillionaires, the billionaires for their benefit alone. The plutocrats don't want some of the money, they don't want most of the money, THEY WANT ALL OF THE MONEY. Wake up people. The only weapon we have is the vote, and we seem to be reluctant to use it.

[Fawke Em]

10. I think Rhett was being sarcastic.

[rhett o rick]

33. I need to work on it. nm

[L0oniX]

42. Please don't. We like you the way you are.

[rhett o rick]

47. Now you're just mocking my clumsy attempts at sarcasm.

I think. I am so confused.

[Skittles]

62. you want I should kick your non-obvious ass, Rhett o Rick?

LEMME AT YOU

[rhett o rick]

64. I've had my ass kicked by better than you and that didn't do anyone any

good. But do as you may.

[Skittles]

67. SCHEDULING R O R FOR ASS KICKING!!!

YES INDEED!!!

[roseBudd]

19. So who wants to help me get 'er done? I am the Frank Luntz of the left

And i am looking for co-conspirators.

[rhett o rick]

32. My greatest apologies, I should have included a sarcasm note. As one that is

terrible at catching sarcasm, I should be more considerate.

[C Moon]

7. This morning I was thinking back on when we bought our twnhouse....6 months b4 the crash.

It really sucks.
The price has not, nor do I think it will ever, get close to what we paid.
And we were going to use it as a starter, then move into a bit larger place.
Yeah, right.

[Jack Rabbit]

8. Several years ago on this forum, while President Obama had just gotten his seat warm in the Oval Ofc

I greeted some cheerleading about the market passing some milestone with "So what?" Naturally, there were a few Obama fans that objected to my raining on the parade.

However, I had noted that while the Frat Boy was still in power, also on this forum, that a rising tide no longer lifted all boats, and I didn't think that had changed. I expected it would, but it hadn't at that time.

I regret to say that it hasn't yet. It's not nearly all Pesident Obama's fault, but he isn't blameless. Even if he were completely blameless, as long as income inequality is at the level it is at, there is no reason to celebrate Wall Street reaching a milestone.

[Hutzpa]

12. It's pointless

President Obama can creates more jobs in a month than any other President and he'll still get blamed for not doing enough. There will always be someone to point out the flaws in the system that was created well before he took office yet still believe that he is responsible.

As someone else pointed out the essence of being president while black, there is a conceited effort to discredit everything this President has done so far in office.

[JDPriestly]

15. Actually, it isn't a question of race. The press did the same thing to Jimmy Carter and to Bill

Clinton. The press is owned by right-wingers who don't have anything good to say about any Democratic president.

[L0oniX]

44. Job loss and low wages are directly related to share holders in many cases IMO.

[RufusTFirefly]

9. Don't be such a grumposaurus, cali!

A little ol' war should help to perk us up!

[Not Sure]

11. I love this post.

My mom and her late parents were always on target with humor like this. Thanks for the perspective on an otherwise bleak topic. I sure needed it.

[adirondacker]

37. Nice!

[ColesCountyDem]

13. Unemployment among the 'over 50 and over-qualified' has reached Depression-era levels.

Jay Rowle, the director of the Illinois Department of Employment Security made that statement just last month. He also said that if the previous accounting method were still in use, it would be even worse.

But I'm happy that Wall Street is doing so well.

[JDPriestly]

14. Fed policy serves the very rich, not the rest of us.

Wages are not keeping up. Jobs are not easy to get.

Of course the economy is not doing well. Of course working people are borrowing more than they can afford. That's because they are not well enough paid to maintain a decent living standard.

[Cayenne]

36. Job quality is also going down

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

16. I have always wondered...

... when they were going to start taking notice of those auto and motorcycle dealerships that say, "bad credit? we can help", and let you buy what you want as long as you finance it in house and are willing to pay any type of interest they offer. I first noticed this in the motorcycle industry (Hello, Harley Davidson), when a friend of mine, without much thought, bought a NEW Harley Davidson 883 Sportster on an 8 year loan. His family ended up having to bail him out of the crazy terms and interest, selling his house and buying one worth 1/4 as much, just to pay off his Harley Davidson loan and credit card bills. His Harley purchase wasn't his only problem, but it just goes to show how they prey on the weak. And that was 7 years ago. His loan was 5 years old at the time. When he took out the loan in 2002 was the first time I noticed that they were selling to anyone that would walk in the door, make a choice and sign on a dotted line.

Since then, the used car lots, and now I guess the new car lots, have taken this tactic. I didn't realize it was getting this bad. All we see is that Harley Davidson is a remade success story (remember the U.S. of A. bailing them out with tariffs and quotas on Japanese cycles?) and U.S. of A. automakers keep selling more cars. Which is great. But at what price.

A former significant other, whose credit was in the outhouse, overpaid by about 40% on a Ford Escort from a used car lot that promised, "bad credit? we can help", deal and help her re-establish her credit rating. So I know that it isn't just interest that screws them out of their money, either.

Sigh... sure am glad my Bonneville has been paid for since day one of my ownership, it runs like a clock and I would drive it anywhere in the continent, just need a new pair of radial tires up front.

[SheilaT]

22. You make a good case for

why certain consumer finance basics need to be taught in school, starting in grade school.

I taught my sons to read the fine print, and all of anything they ever bought. I was with him when he bought his first car, and he actually read the entire contract before he signed. And he was paying cash! I was very proud of him, and also appreciated that the salesperson did not try to hurry him through the reading.

[GP6971]

31. I recently purchased a new car

and walked into the dealership with my check authorization from USAA. They tried everything in the book to get me to have them finance it and they were pissed when I wouldn't budge. I ended up purchasing from another dealer......same initial pressure, but not as obnoxious.....it was the end of the month thankfully.

[MineralMan]

41. Your Triumph Bonneville

has two tires on the front? I mean, you were just talking about Harleys. Mine only had one tire on the front. The back, too. It ran really well, but it did have a persistent oil leak from the time I bought it until I sold it a few years later.

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

63. Good call...

... I had morphed into discussing cars, so I thought the implication was there, but I do see how it left some intrigue. Yes, a Pontiac Bonneville. The new Triumph Bonneville motorcycles are looking great! Tempting for me, but see above posts, ha.

[PeteSelman]

17. Well, for what it's worth, construction is booming again.

A lot of us are finally back to work and doing ok again. It'll be hard to make up for the lost two years but things are back to normal for many of us.

I'm hardly a 1%er but the stocks doing well helps my retirement and pension money grow. I'm not going to complain too much about that.

The nine straight terms of Reagan policies have destroyed the country's industrial base and that's never coming back. It's probably never going to be better than this "new normal" for several reasons, not the least of which are both the refusal to pay more taxes and starting wars we don't have to fight.

You're right, we're fucked.

[LondonReign2]

51. You nailed it

The stock market going up does help the approximately 60% of American families that have exposure either directly or through DC or DB plans.

And, "nine straight terms of Reagan policies" is dead accurate. Obama himself described his economic policies as "mainstream 1980's Republican". That a Democratic President says this in public and his diehard fans cheer him absolutely boggles the mind.

[rtracey]

18. ok

and now, lets think about what this country would look like if Romney or McCain was president.....CNN had Paul Ryan on Burnett show, imagine him as vice president...Ayn Ran as Sec of state....hhahahaha, but the scariest thing I heard was a CNN poll, that 51 % of women would vote democrat, but 49% would vote repub....49%.....WHAT THE F women, do you not give a shit about anything involving you? really 49%......if this is true, then quit complaining about anything involving you or your rights, birth control, equal pay, etc, because you are not interested.....

[strawberries]

55. back in the day

I remember paying for my own BC when I was in college. The pill was $9.99 not sure of other kinds of BC. Abortion had just become legal and the cost was $250.00. If you were on state assistance I know they paid for abortions.

Unfortunately or fortunately, I make more money than most men I know. I don't remember anyone in IT getting discriminated, but then again I was raising a family and could have missed a lot.

Please don't attack me for doing well. I know I am not in the majority and I do help others the best I can. I do NOT complain about paying taxes because I know it goes to help others in need. I needed assistance at one point in my life when I got pregnant and chose to keep my pregnancy. I have never forgotten the pain of those days. At that time food stamps were actual stamps you picked up at Bradley's the first Tuesday of every month.
I remember the disgusting looks people would give me when I would buy food or take my baby to the DR.

One time the cashier taunted me for having food stamps. I left crying. I told my father and together we went to the super market and he bought the most expensive steaks. He then pulled out my food stamps to pay for the steaks. I remember him looking at the cashier asking her if she had a problem and he started yelling at her.

Just an old story from the past

[KG]

20. what;s going on now is the new normal.

[customerserviceguy]

29. Agreed.

The post-WWII boom was fueled by cheap oil, that's just not an option anymore.

[obxhead]

56. I disagree.

Cheap oil was a factor, but a fair wage was a far larger factor.

We had a huge manufacturing base that was paid well above minimum wage, but even at minimum wage life was still good.

A minimum wage worker could buy a car new, get a home mortgage, and raise children. Today that's not possible working 80 hours a week at minimum.

[customerserviceguy]

71. Then I would submit to you

that in a globalized economy, where goods are manufactured in every corner of the world, that the manufacturing jobs of the postwar period are gone forever. I do note that there is a definite correlation between the amount of oil produced in the US with the period of maximum security of the middle class, but I acknowledge that several things have come about to cause the collapse of that middle class.

[Yupster]

73. Don't forget that our economic rivals were blasted

We didn't have to compete with Germany, Japan, Russia, even England because they were all flat on their back.

Lots of rebuilding needed and us being the only functioning economic powerhouse that could manufacture it gave us a pretty nice run for a few decades. Then Germany and Japan started churning again.

[sendero]

35. Exactly..

.... there is no "recovery" unless you consider this anemic piece of crap to be one. This is it, this is what you get, it's not going to get better probably ever but certainly in most of our lifetimes.

But hey, the unemployment stats, that consider a 7.25 per hour McJob to have the same value as a 50K per year real job say everything is just fine.

[blkmusclmachine]

21. The economy for the 1% is doing just splendid, thank you very much.

And they think they're the only ones who matter...

[On the Road]

23. Hmmm, You or Paul Krugman?

I think maybe Paul Krugman.

[stevenleser]

30. Exactly, Krugman, the folks at Forbes, etc. The economy is recovering very well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2014/09/05/obama-outperforms-reagan-on-jobs-growth-and-investing/

Obama Outperforms Reagan On Jobs, Growth And Investing

The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) today issued America’s latest jobs report covering August. And it’s a disappointment. The economy created an additional 142,000 jobs last month. After six consecutive months over 200,000, most pundits expected the string to continue, including ADP which just yesterday said 204,000 jobs were created in August. One month variation does not change a trend

Even though the plus-200,000 monthly string was broken (unless revised upward at a future date,) unemployment did continue to decline and is now reported at only 6.1%. Jobless claims were just over 300,000; lowest since 2007. Despite the lower than expected August jobs number, America will create about 2.5 million new jobs in 2014. And that is great news.

Back in May, 2013 (15 months ago) the Dow was out of its recession doldrums and hitting new highs. I asked readers if Obama could, economically, be the best modern President? Through discussion of that question, the number one issue raised by readers was whether the stock market was a good economic barometer for judging “best.” Many complained that the measure they were watching was jobs – and that too many people were still looking for work.
.
.
.
more at above link
------------------------------------------------------

Folks should not confuse the reasonable desire to see better wages with knowledge of the economy.

[laundry_queen]

34. That's ridiculous

better wages are part and parcel of an economic recovery. Without it, the recovery is weak and unstable. Many 1%ers on tv here in Canada have talked about this. The lack of increase in wages is BAD for the economy and threatens THIS recovery. To pretend wages are separate from the economy is a lack of knowledge about the economy.

[stevenleser]

38. Its not ridiculous. Nobel laureates agree with it and disagree with you.

Unless you think you know more than they do about economics?

Its all laid out well here--> http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2014/09/05/obama-outperforms-reagan-on-jobs-growth-and-investing/

[laundry_queen]

39. I read it, thanks. Twice. But thanks for the link. Again.

It says nothing about wages and the economy. It says a lot about jobs, not a fuck of a lot about wages. Show me where the Nobel laureates say, "poor wage growth has no long term effect on the recent recovery."

[truedelphi]

66. Milton Friedman won a Nobel Peace PRize, and he had the same disdain

For the real economy that Krugman demonstrates.

I will put my money on Stieglitz, any day of the week.

[greytdemocrat]

59. A better question is what type of job is created.

Creating a bunch of low wage, part-timers may look good
on paper but it isn't going to send the country into
"Happy Days are Here Again" mode.

[Number23]

68. Do you know if that article is an OP? Now that's one I'd be happy to kick and rec

[progree]

69. There is at least one OP on that article

Google this:
site:democraticunderground.com Obama Outperforms Reagan On Jobs, Growth And Investing

Here's one of them:
"Obama Outperforms Reagan On Jobs, Growth And Investing" (Applegrove)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025532510

Another:
"Forbes Magazine: Obama best economic president of modern times!" (Kpete)
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10025502588

just to pick the first two hits Google came up with

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, in reaction to some of what I see in this thread, Adam Hartung is a contributor at Forbes. There is a disclaimer at the top of the article: "Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own."

Like a lot of magazines and newspapers, they publish a variety of opinions, just to look "balanced" (Even Fox does that with its token liberal or two). I don't think this "Rah rah rah Obama is better than Reagan" reflects what Steve Forbes thinks.

[Number23]

72. Thanks very much!

[Andy823]

24. I agree

Things are not as good as they should be, and as far as I am concerned the only way to change that is to get rid of the republicans from local levels all the way up to national levels. Now I know there are dens that should go also, but the majority of problems with obstructing everything that can actually help the economy is coming from republicans. We can not afford to see more of them get elected since things will only get worse, not better.

So the question is, what do we do?

[progree]

70. We should spend the remainder of the month before the election trashing the economy

in every way, shape, and form we can. Perhaps we should organize an economy trash-a-con the week before the election. An economy that most swing voters see as belonging to the Democrats for the past nearly 6 years -- as we've had a Democratic president and a Democratic Senate all that time, plus the House for the 1st 2 years.

Our economy trash-a-con will help motivate swing voters and fence-sitters to get out and vote. [font color=gray](which way they will vote, though, might be problematical, but isn't turnout everything?) [/font]. Perhaps we should team up with our good friends at Free Republic who are doing the same thing -- trashing the "Obummer" economy.

[font size=1, color=gray]{bitter, angry, sarcasm thingy}[/font]

In response to your question:

We can not afford to see more of them {Republicans} get elected since things will only get worse, not better.

So the question is, what do we do?

[WillyT]

25. K & R !!!

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

26. true true true

But what can we do? All we can do is vote and try to convince others to vote against all republican candidates. I've been loosening my wallet leading up to the midterms and urge all to do what you can. I personally send money directly to the campaigns of the candidates instead of PACs or the DCCC, DSCC, DNC, etc. This may be our last chance, our last gasp. If the vultures take control of the senate, the presidency would surely be next. Then we will truly be in a very spicy pickle.

[kansasobama]

27. Economy is fine but...

Our beloved left keeps losing focus during mid-terms and does not vote. Nothing can change much unless the Congress is Democratic and I mean progressive Democratic. What do you expect? Economic policy is slanted towards the top. If th economy is down, give tax cuts. If the economy is up, give tax cuts. Just throw a little bit of tax cut to middle class and they grab that.

In the process, percentage of total wealth is going more and more for the top 5%.

Look at my own stupid state of Kansas. In 2014, our liberal friends will put us in jeopardy and tie Obama's hands more and then complain. Vote, Vote, Vote!

[L0oniX]

45. When in doubt ...blame the left.

[wolfie001]

46. Texas Dem voting rate is beyond pathetic. No good reason it isn't a Blue state like Cali. nt

[LondonReign2]

53. A partial reason is that a lot of those Texas dem voters

are Hispanics, and the GOP has done a pretty good job at frightening them and suppressing the vote.

[LondonReign2]

52. It wasn't "the left" or "liberals", it was centrists and independents

Sigh. I am so tied of new sock puppets popping up to spew the same liberal-bashing lie:

Did liberals really stay home and cause the 2010 rout?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/06/1003805/-Did-liberals-really-stay-home-and-cause-the-2010-rout
“So I went back to the exit polls and the picture I see shows nothing like that. If you are a proponent of this claim, I challenge you for empirical proof that some set of activist liberals "took their ball and went home" or whatever metaphor you prefer to make Obama's leftward critics appear childish and immature. Inside, the evidence I found that shows this just ain't so.”

http://blogforarizona.net/do-progressives-even-sit-out-elections-the-numbers-say-no/
“As you can see, Democrats did slightly better with liberals in 2010 than in 2006. Had there really been a collective we’re-sitting-out-the-election-to-spite-Obama pout going on, then there should have been a sharp drop in the liberal participation percentage. Yet notice the 9% in moderate voter participation and the concomitant 10% increase in conservative turnout. Republicans were pumped for that election but their turnout tends to be higher in midterms anyway. Millions of moderate voters either flipped to conservative or stayed home in 2010.”

“As you can see, all the Democratic groups dropped, but the liberal Democrats dropped least of all”

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/progressive-movement/news/2012/11/08/44348/the-return-of-the-obama-coalition/
Ideology. Liberals were 25 percent of voters in 2012, up from 22 percent in 2008. Since 1992 the percent of liberals among presidential voters has varied in a narrow band between 20 percent and 22 percent, so the figure for this year is quite unusual. Conservatives, at 35 percent, were up one point from the 2008 level, but down a massive 7 points since 2010.
Ideology. Obama received less support in 2012 from all ideology groups, though the drop-offs were not particularly sharp in any group. He received 86 percent support from liberals (89 percent in 2008), 56 percent from moderates (60 percent in 2008), and 17 percent from conservatives (20 percent in 2008).

[still_one]

28. The economy isn't great, but it is a lot better than it was. I can tell you people are getting

hired in Silicon Valley, where in 2007-2008 there were massive layoffs. Traffic is heavy, where at the time of the economic collapse it was much less. No question for many people things are in a dire situation, but for certain sectors, and the economy as a whole the situation has improved compared to 2007-2008.

[CrispyQ]

40. Credit has made up for decent wages.

But when most of the nation has as much credit as they can afford, then what? They issue more credit. It's crazy and not sustainable.

[cascadiance]

57. And once we've all hit our credit limits, they'll bring back debtor's prisons...

... and the prison industrial complex will love all of those extra government welfare dollars for themselves along with our slave labor!

[Yupster]

74. And what happens when interest rates rise?

How do you pay interest on $ 17 trillion?

[Orsino]

43. The Dow only measures how fast Wall Street is stealing from us.

Wall Street isn't an industry, and so cannot spur our economy.

[mother earth]

48. Ah, democracy at work. Let's all vote blue, surely that is the answer? nt

[Hutzpa]

49. And what is the alternative? nt

[mother earth]

50. Remember one thing, it's not the vote, it's who counts the vote. I don't know the alternative,

but this surely is no longer democracy. In these times, the answers are not simple, but it's going to take more than the same solutions that never seem to work.

We did vote blue, we have dem in the white house, yet the problems are growing and the economy as well as the people are still fucked. Sure, Romney would've taken us to hell quicker, but we are still going the same route.

The politicians are not going to vote against their own self-interest, they are not going to vote against the revolving doors. The first thing we must face is that our "democracy" is broken.

[WinkyDink]

58. Pensions are in the stock market, so there is that.

[davidthegnome]

60. Agreed.

I work in this economy - and while I realize that not everyone is in my position, I can tell you that the work is hard and long, and the pay is not enough to survive by one's self. My parents, my friends, my whole family... everyone is working in this time of "economic recovery", but they are not recovering. I have noticed the stock market rising, which is good news for some people - for now, until it crashes again, until the same assholes that crashed the economy in the first place do it all over again, which is almost inevitable. Then we will once again be told why we have to bail them out, why they can't be held accountable, why they are too big and too important to fail.

As hard as I work... I'm not going to go for it this time. I'm keeping my assets, my money, in cash - and when I get even a whiff of a fucking crash, I'm taking it all out of the bank and hiding it under my damn mattress.

These rich assholes who have screwed - and are continuing to screw our economy... they do not deserve our money. Do not deserve it, do not need it. Let them suffer the same fate that we do when we screw up. Perhaps then they'll realize the point of progressive taxation, of a reliable social safety need, of decent housing, education, food and clothing for everyone. When those currently rich and in power become poor, perhaps we'll experience a great age of enlightenment.

All the politicians, CEOs, investment brokers, what have you... when they feel the bite of a struggling economy just as we do, I can almost swear that it will get better. Because we won't have those fuckers holding up progress anymore.

[B Calm]

61. Stock market on a whole has been down for over a month. .

[truedelphi]

65. Summer of 2014 - record number of auto repossessions and the Autumn won't be better.

The real economy is suffering, except in Colorado, where the tourist boom is propelling the state forward, and record amounts of tax revenue will come into the state coffers due to the legalizing of the cannabis plant.