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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAmerican “Christians”, you are NOT being oppressed. Repeat, NOT BEING OPPRESSED.
http://bluntandcranky.wordpress.com/2014/09/29/american-christians-you-are-not-being-oppressed-repeat-not-being-oppressed/Here is the latest in a flurry of non-reality-based memes on the subject:
How wrong is it? Let us count the ways:
Number A: they are free to say grace over their meal. Nobody ever said they couldnt. But the meme falsely implies that they are bravely taking a stand against some mythical oppressor who seeks to stop their prayer. There is, of course, no such oppressor, but that fact matters not at all to the Fundagelicals.
Letter 2: see anybody there pelting these hard-working public servants with atheistic tracts? Nope. Most Americans dont much care who you pray to, when, how or why.
Thirdly: assuming that the promulgators of this meme consider themselves to be Christians, they should read Rebbe Yeshuah bar Josephs words in Matthew:6. You know, the words about not being phony and ostentatious in their prayer.
Odds are, the people depicted had nothing to do with the meme: just people saying grace before a meal. Good on them. Its their right to do so.
The problem is with the yahoo prostletyzers who are using this ordinary picture to try and enforce their wingnut agendas on the rest of us. This writer wishes theyd spend more time reading their Constitutions and less trying to subvert it.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)for praying in public. Someone might roll their eyes, or say Happy Holidays, or something like that. It's a hard world out there.
riqster
(13,986 posts)I'm such a bad, bad person.....
peace13
(11,076 posts)Reminds me of a story. When my husband was a little boy he was reading out loud and his mother asked him to read to himself. He asked her how to do that. Cracks me up. People can pray where ever, whenever. No one can stop them. Just do as momma says and keep it inside your head!
Really I don't care if people pray out load in public but when they wok for the public I do worry that they may let my house burn down or leave me to bleed out by the road if I don't agree with their god.
But forgive me for thinking out loud! : )
Purrfessor
(1,188 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)The first step to getting people to rally to your cause is to tell them they're under attack by some malevolent force.
Propaganda 101.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)if they were faced with the real deal like gas chamber style persecution they might understand how silly their persecution claims are to people who have a family history of that kind of persecution.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Especially those who claim that God wants them to oppress others.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I am a mutt so probably a distant cousin to nearly everyone.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Gascon French and Highland Scot here, with a bit of English, Norman, and maybe some Irish.
Same here, my ancestors came to the US on one of the Mayflower ships and the Lyons and well a whole lot of other ships. I did my family tree it seems like whenever there was a historical problem they were in the middle of it.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Mostly we just kept our heads down and worked since then. Not a very consequential lot on any of the branches of the family tree.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)That is what I was hoping for my family.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Having attention paid to one is not always a good thing, as well you know.
Hope things improve for your family.
Gemini Cat
(2,820 posts)DeadLetterOffice
(1,352 posts)... would be so defensive of public prayer if the prayers were, say... Wiccan? If I called on the four directions before I ate my meal, d'you s'pose they'd applaud me for my bravery and for not being afraid? Or if I were to pray in Hebrew? Or Arabic?
Somehow, I think this meme is only about not being afraid to pray like a Christian. The rest of us? We can just go fuck off.
Makes me nuts -- as if Christianity invented the concept of prayer. Oy.
ChazInAz
(2,570 posts)A basketball player in the last seconds of a game, sweating with tension on the free-throw line, whips out a prayer shawl, puts on a yarmulke and starts davenning like mad before taking the shot!
THAT would certainly make my day.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Things you never expect to see.
Uncle Joe
(58,366 posts)Thanks for the thread, rigster.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Xolodno
(6,395 posts)...losing converts to Mormons (Fundamentalists don't consider them Christian)
...losing converts to JW's (see above comment)
...losing converts to Islam.
...losing converts to Atheism/Agnostic
I'm convinced that them giving out tracts isn't about converting others....but creating a hostile situation with someone "militant" so they "feel" like they are being persecuted.
Likewise, manufacturing bogus stuff as if someone one was telling them were not allowed to pray....or creating bogus stories about some elite left wing "professor" knocking down God (when if such a situation occurred....he would have a nasty lawsuit on his hands).
And the wholesale vicious hate rhetoric they spew against Mormons, JW's, Islam and Athiests...is obvious an attempt to create an atmosphere of fear.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)except for the atheists. Hard for me to weep about religious folks who all attack me if they happen to spew against one another. I'd rather that the focus on each other and leave the rest of us alone.
Mormons, JW's, Muslims, all of these groups speak against, organize to oppose and often violently react to LGBT people and our rights. Hell, Pope Francis says fighting LGBT rights is 'God's war which we must all fight' and many on DU openly admire him. One assumes they also fight his war with him if one is not an idiot.
riqster
(13,986 posts)truebrit71
(20,805 posts):-D
padfun
(1,786 posts)n/t
riqster
(13,986 posts)If you'll pardon the expression.
Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)Matthew 6:5-8
5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Don't get me wrong. I don't buy any of it. It's still a fun verse to quote in reponse to such pictures.
On edit:
Now that I read closer, that was essentially your point 3
riqster
(13,986 posts)My denomination used Red Letter bibles, and those were most helpful in maintaining a focus on the words of Jesus.
Those that remained after the Paulines put the Gospels through a theological cuisinart, anyway. Amazing how different the New Testament reads when you deemphasize Paul.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)I went to both Sunday School and church yesterday, and no one made fun of me, blocked my way into or out of church, censored anything that was discussed, sung or preached from the pulpit, etc. . Yesterday was like every Sunday for the last (almost) 60 years.
I'm not feeling the oppression, frankly.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Nor, I imagine, are you.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)Response to riqster (Original post)
Post removed
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)marble falls
(57,112 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Dang.....so disappointed. Just surprising it was hidden.
marble falls
(57,112 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)SleeplessinSoCal
(9,123 posts)... about the first amendment. He yelled at the congregation that the founding fathers were God fearing and put in writing under the first amendment "freedom of religion" and that God must be in schools and government buildings. And he tossed Hitler in too. How Hitler's powers grew "gradually and intrusively". He did all this while demanding the Huntington Beach congregation respond with "yes" because the priest is always right.
It was horrific knowing likely hundreds there believed him. I'm paid to be there or I'd have stormed out. Nobody left that I noticed.
riqster
(13,986 posts)What a messianic ass he sounds.
LibertyLover
(4,788 posts)but what would someone from Dominica know about the first amendment of the US Constitution? It was French until 1763 and then British and then in 1978 it became an independent country. It's frightening that nobody in the congregation thought to question this priest's knowledge.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,123 posts)There are often two priests leading the mass. I'm female afforded little respect by the nice priests there. And they are Franciscans and not hard liners. Pope Frances cannot possibly approve this audacity coupled with misinformation. Frances has spoken out about atheists in a positive way. The Dominican reactionary ought to be called to Rome and read the riot act. Or defrocked!!
Phlem
(6,323 posts)aren't they the ones who do the oppressing via the Republican party?
riqster
(13,986 posts)onecaliberal
(32,864 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)oppressing someone about one thing or another.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Fundagelicals want to hang women who have miscarriages, kill LGBT citizens, let Hispanic kids die in the desert, and lots of other things that are diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus.
But when people think "Christian", that is the image that comes to mind.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)the labels they are the same.
riqster
(13,986 posts)RKP5637
(67,111 posts)something like that. They work hard to make themselves appear benevolent and do-gooders, but underlying that veil is some pretty ugly stuff. I'm always surprised so many fall for it all, especially those that gleefully open their wallets to them. ... it has become a facade for some horrifically evil individuals and of all things, tax free.
riqster
(13,986 posts)I always thought it a good allegory for such people as you describe.
RKP5637
(67,111 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)what the quotation marks implied.
riqster
(13,986 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)Christians there have a helluva time.
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)put this one out on his blog... "Terminal Lance". Terminal Lance is a guy in the Marine Corps who remains a Lance Corporal for a looooong time. Until he gets out!
Of course he caused a "Christian persecution" shitstorm, but he doesn't care...
"Naturally it caused quite the disturbance in the force for faux Christians who might have assumed that all Marines are warriors of God. This image isnt anti-Christian. People are telling me Im Christian-bashing, by posting this image, and theyre fucking wrong. If you think Im bashing anyone by posting this popular image (which Ive seen numerous times prior to my posting), youre an idiot.
If a shitty, tacky pencil sketch of a soldier with a sloppily placed Jesus sticking halfway out of the ground causes you to question humanity, you need to get out more. Its a crime that any Kinkade wannabe hack can draw some sappy image with Christ in it and illicit genuine emotion from people, thats power that shouldnt exist."
I can't recommend Terminal Lance any higher. It's crude, sexist, irreverent ... all the things you guy who were in the Corps will recognize.
riqster
(13,986 posts)yortsed snacilbuper
(7,939 posts)protect me from your followers!
riqster
(13,986 posts)Gothmog
(145,335 posts)The meme is annoying. Christians are the majority religion in the US and christians see nothing wrong commenting on and discriminating against minority religions. There is no discrimination by the minority religions of the majority religion. The christians are upset that they are not being allowed to oppress and impose their views on the minority religions
riqster
(13,986 posts)Minorities can become majorities, and minorities again. It's happened with my denomination.
Any group that finds itself in the majority would do well to remember that arc.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)It is amusing to read about how the big religions 'oppress' the smaller ones when in reality, the religions in the US are basically unified against LGBT people and choice. Their political activism is not targeting other religions. It targets LGBT people and women's rights.
Gothmog
(145,335 posts)Not all religious movements are aligned against the LGBT community or women rights
Gemini Cat
(2,820 posts)No one is persecuting or oppressing the Christians here.
riqster
(13,986 posts)That being the conversion of the USA to theocracy, along the lines of Iran: just with a single virulent strain of Christianity in control.
Silent3
(15,235 posts)It could be even worse. Someone might ROLL THEIR EYES!
OPPRESSION, I tell you! OPPRESSION!!!
riqster
(13,986 posts)Winston? Paging Mr. Winston Smith, you are needed at MiniTrue...
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)In many regards, we have an ultra sensitive culture.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Yavin4
(35,443 posts)That's how they see it.
riqster
(13,986 posts)strawberries
(498 posts)if not, then how would you know? I have seen pictures all lot's religious people praying, but that doesn't mean they are not being oppressed.
Retrograde
(10,137 posts)at least two, since one might be a fluke. And, no, not being able to impose one's beliefs on other people or having to put up with the existence of people with different points of view do not count as oppression.
strawberries
(498 posts)cause we have read what is happening to christians in the ME.
I didn't make my point. My point was, until you walk in the shoes of those you are commenting on, you have no right to comment on what or how they feel.
riqster
(13,986 posts)perception is reality
riqster
(13,986 posts)Reality trumped his perception.
I am quite sure Karl Rove and I are not the only folks who have ever said perception is reality, but thanks for finding away to put us together.
Now if I had his bank account life would be good
peace and have a glass of wine
riqster
(13,986 posts)My point is this, in all seriousness: it is possible to feel oppressed when one is not being oppressed. If there is actual oppression taking place, it should be provable.
I am thinking dry Rose' of Pinot Noir. Yum!
strawberries
(498 posts)hey we could be friends and share a glass
granted it is beer, but pretend
riqster
(13,986 posts)Had a bad experience with such.
strawberries
(498 posts)riqster
(13,986 posts)I work at it, though.
In any case, your question isn't really applicable, or designed to elicit a valid answer. Rather like climate change: the fact that I am not actively impacted by it doesn't prove it exists or does not exist.
Perhaps you'd like to provide other proof that Christians are oppressed in modern America?
JoDog
(1,353 posts)Last week, I had to use some of my vacation time and get the permission of my supervisor so I could attend services for Rosh haShanah, perhaps the second holiest day of the Jewish calendar. On Friday, I will take a half day of vacation time to prepare for the fast of Yom Kippur, which is THE holiest day of the Jewish calendar.
When was the last time you had to request time off to ensure you could attend Christmas, Easter, or Good Friday services? I'm guessing you never have needed to, since those are all recognized as FEDERAL holidays. That means the Christian faith is the faith of the establishment.
Employers are REQUIRED to give those days off to employees or pay them AT LEAST time and a half for every second they must work on those holidays. Even the many service industry workers get those days off.
When you need to ask your boss to take time off to go to a Christmas service or Mass, then you can complain about unfairness. Until then, kiss my Yiddish tochus.
strawberries
(498 posts)I work in IT and when you are oncall Christmas Easter all that you mentioned doesn't matter. You are OnCall
riqster
(13,986 posts)Because on call status actually gives you additional bennies if you work in America and it is a federal Christian holiday.
I always felt that those holidays were violations of the Establishment Clause, for all that they benefit me personally.
strawberries
(498 posts)I have over 30 years in the business. On Call I have never considered it giving me addition bennies. I have worked many of Holidays when my children were small and I regret working those days.
You have the right to feel that those holidays were violations of the Establishment Clause. I have the right to feel the way I do
That doesn't make either one of us wrong
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)I'm guessing you get those days off, automatically, do you not? I am further guessing that you do NOT get Jewish holidays off automatically, true?
strawberries
(498 posts)Then you are correct. For IT people, police, Hospital workers I would say no.
I know what we try to do is compliment each other. For example a non christian person would work Christmas for me and I would work theirr holiday for them.
riqster
(13,986 posts)Retrograde
(10,137 posts)Good Friday is not a Federal holiday. It is a holiday in some states, though, but by no means in all of them. Easter is always on a Sunday, which is already covered by holiday laws. Christmas is a valid point, though (what about New Year's Day? It's a holy day for Catholics - the Feast of the Circumcision - but I don't think Protestant denominations observe it.)
I'd like to see us go the other way and observe more religious holidays in the US with time off for everyone - there's a long dry spell between January 1 and Memorial Day and I'm sure there's something somewhere that will give us a break. Lunar New Year, any one?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)If you aren't me, than you really have no idea.
Bryant
gollygee
(22,336 posts)in this case, a picture of oppression would be a picture of them NOT being allowed to pray.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I gave you a Rec out of sympathy. I agree with you, but telling some members of DU this is going to get you an ass whooping by a bunch of them.
riqster
(13,986 posts)But thanks for the 'roid wipes. Could be useful if things get out of hand.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)show everyone how holy they are by making a public spectacle out of praying. He said to pray privately, and to say prayers like the Lord's Prayer, cuz God already knows what you need before you ask.
Peronally, I could care less about anyone praying in public as long as their attention seeking babble doesn't annoy everyone else in the vicinity.
riqster
(13,986 posts)And they were blaring the evening news via their feckin' smartphones.
Prayer would have been less disruptive, I expect.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"they should read Rebbe Yeshuah bar Josephs words in Matthew:6"
You then believe in Biblical Literalism and the passage may not be validly interpreted to have any other meaning?
riqster
(13,986 posts)Along with alternate gospels, apocrypha and so on as well:
Whenever the words are attributed to God or to Jesus, they tend to be more concise, cogent and direct. Compare such quotes with Paul's letters or other speakers. Quite a difference.
So I do think we can look at degrees or subtle shades of meaning, absolutely. But I don't think we can assume an opposite meaning to the material presented. Not a lot of wiggle room in the text to play with.
That's my take. Yours?
yortsed snacilbuper
(7,939 posts)In a casino, you really mean it!
riqster
(13,986 posts)I like yours better!