Putin is on the march; ISIL is at Turkey's borders. I am beginning to think Hillary...

[Hekate]

Hillary, often accused here of being "hawkish" and unforgiven by some for -- well, being a Clinton (despite everything the Big Dog has done for us all, both in and out of office) -- has a sturdy Democratic record in many domestic policy areas. She intentionally built up her foreign policy creds via the Senate committees she served on, and then by accepting the post of Secretary of State. That much is known.

Who else do we have in the running, including on the Fantasy Team -- especially on the Fantasy Team, that has those kinds of foreign policy creds?

It's all well and good to work for peace, to pray for it, to wish for it. Diplomacy is a subtle game, and a long one. God knows we need diplomats, and I hope our next president understands that as well as our current one does. Not every problem is a nail requiring a hammer -- unless it is.

But sometimes The World does not co-operate. The current situation is as bad as anything I've seen in my lifetime, and I was born during the Truman administration. Other countries must be persuaded to step up and do the job they also pledged to do; the US may be "the indispensable nation," but we can't be the only one.

So, in the face of an undeclared Democratic field for 2016, and in the face of entities outside our borders who really lust for war and can't be ignored, I've been thinking about the allegedly hawkish Hillary. My husband put it pretty well a couple of nights ago: When it comes to facing up to Putin, I think I'd want Hillary and Bill Clinton on our side.

Those who want to can pull out their flamethrowers. Otherwise, I'd be interested in a rational point of view.

Hekate

[hrmjustin]

1. I was disappointed in her 2003 vote but i think she will be more cautious in the future.

At least i hope so.

[Hekate]

2. Thanks. If we held the 2003 vote against every Dem, we wouldn't have many left in DC, would we?

I see her as a highly intelligent person and supremely rational, both traits I like when harnessed to Democratic principles. She wouldn't be perfect, but those who know me know that I will go for "good enough" any day.

[hrmjustin]

6. I always liked her and i think she would be a good president.

I hope people give her a chance.

[Hekate]

8. Most will. Some won't. nt

[JEB]

19. No we wouldn't.

[delrem]

3. I think Hillary's "Friends of Syria" movement,

coming immediately after her "R2P Libya" movement, brought unbounded peace and prosperity to the region as compared to before. My heart just gurgles in delight! I'm sure a President H. Clinton would bring much more of that kind of peace and goodwill to the world and I anticipate the day!

[Electric Monk]

4. If by "foreign policy creds" you mean "student and friend of Kissinger" well, fuck that shit.

Hillary Clinton Praises a Guy With Lots of Blood on His Hands - MotherJones

Hillary Clinton Calls Henry Kissinger a Friend, Praises His Commitment to Democracy - Slate

Hand in Hand With Kissinger: A Review of Hillary Clinton’s Review - TruthDig

[Hekate]

7. Thanks for the well-reasoned response. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

5. Which of Hillary's actions as SoS were most successful

in making the world more peaceful, in your opinion?

Over all, between her time in the Senate or her time as SoS, did her actions help or harm more people abroad?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

11. Good question, MG. I am eagerly awaiting a response! nt

[Hekate]

16. The question was: What does the Fantasy Team have to offer when the dogs of war have been loosed?

I'd like to know -- I really would.

Putin is obviously nostalgic for the old saber-rattling days. Tell me he's not, and I'll laugh in your face. ISIL is not a nation, but a dispersed gang of thugs who really want us there in person so they can kill us. And there's more.

Under the circs, I think the dogs of war have been unleashed and not by Obama.

Now what?

[eridani]

18. Putin is being pushed hard by some serious reactionaries in Russia

Let's turf him out and let them take over.

[Hekate]

22. "Let's" turf him out? I don't even know what you mean by that. Irony?

I'm too tired for irony tonight, so if that's it I'm missing the point.

Putin is an old USSR/KGB man. The US may have future proxy wars with the former Soviets, but I don't see direct action, ever. Sanctions, yes. Negotiations on some things, yes. But...

[eridani]

23. Yes, irony. Putin is no prize, but we could do worse

Ever since the collapse of the old Soviet Union, the US and NATO have proceeded to surround Russia with hostile military bases, after having promised not to expand NATO. It doesn't matter who is in charge--they'll be pushed by powerful factions in Russia not to put up with this.

[Hekate]

24. Gotcha. nt

[sendero]

40. Speaking of fantasy team..

.... from Bill who did so much for us, we got:

"free" no reciprocity trade with China
ending of "welfare as we know it"
NAFTA
signing the repleal of Glass-Stegall (impossible to overstate the damage from that one)
signing of the Commodity Fututes Modernization Act (set the stage for the current shadow banking system killing our economy)
the tripling of H1B visas


So what GOOD did we get from the "big dog"? Because I'll bet you anything it is no where near the bad. Yes we had a booming economy while Bill was president. He had little to do with it, it was driven by technology. Bill Clinton did more to set the stage for our currently fucked up economy that ANYONE. So enjoy your smug "fantasy".

[CK_John]

9. I worry about Russia bombers intruding in Canada and Alaska, all it would take is a hot head

jumping the gun.

Then WWIII. If you don't smell the scent of war, your lucky.

[TwilightGardener]

10. Good God. "We came, we saw, he died"--how's Libya working out? Yeah, that was

Hillary (along with Power and Rice)--what a stupid clusterfuck. Obama should have overridden her and listened to Biden. If that's her foreign policy instincts....no fucking thanks.

[sheshe2]

12. It's early for me to commit to 2016.

However I admire Hillary. She pushed for diplomacy as national security. She went a long way to repaired America's image in the world. The one that Bushco did their best to obliterate.

Several more weeks to 2014! Then I will discuss 2016 at length with you.

Thanks for the thread, Hekate. So good to see you back again.

[GeorgeGist]

13. I dislike her immensely.

[AtomicKitten]

17. ditto

[cwydro]

14. I'm just laughing at posts previously on DU

saying she would start wars.

Wow, look we are now...And Hillary is not president.

[Maven]

15. And Obama would have voted against the AUMF, remember?

If only he'd been in Congress at the time. Except now he's relying on it to start a new war!

[Cha]

25. Yeah, "look where we are now".. cleaning up bush's shite like we knew the next President would

have to do.. when the bush-cheney bunch opened that big ol can of worms in the ME back on March 20, 2003.

Look who else Supports attacking ISIS with Airstrikes.. Jimmy Carter, Bernie Sanders, and Elizabeth Warren all well respected leaders, have access and know a hellava lot more about this than those on the internet who can't grasp this isn't being run by the bush-cheney neocon crowd.

"I think we need to attack ISIS. I'm really concerned about them."

"Is the bombing of ISIS justified? I say yes. And I hope President Obama has every possible success in getting allies to join with us, some with ground troops effected inside Syria."

FrodosPet http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5566788

Bernie stands with the President on this "Enormously complicated issue".. as he calls it. He disagrees with staying out of ISIS like some around are clamoring on about.

As he stated it's an "International effort" and guess what.. "they have to put money in it too."

Hartman and he talked about one republiCon saying.. they'll "blast him if it doesn't work and ask why he didn't do it sooner if it does." Sounds like a familiar whine.

Senators Warren and Sanders are on board with the President..

FrodosPet http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5527989

Sen. Elizabeth Warren says she supports President Obama's decision to authorize airstrikes in Iraq

BOSTON — Warning against a new U.S. war in Iraq, U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Warren on Friday stood by President Barack Obama’s decision to authorize targeted airstrikes to help defend Americans in Erbil, Iraq, and provide aid to a religious minority taking refuge in the Sinjar mountains.

“It’s a complicated situation right now in Iraq and the president has taken very targeted actions to provide humanitarian relief that the Iraqi government requested, and to protect American citizens,” Warren told reporters. “But like the president I believe that any solution in Iraq is going to be a negotiated solution, not a military solution. We do not want to be pulled into another war in Iraq.”


Senator Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., said she supports president Barack Obama's decision to authorize new airstrikes in Iraq but cautioned against U.S. involvement in a new war in the Middle East.

http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/sen_elizabeth_warren_warns_abo.html

Yeah, and "Hillary is not president".. thank goodness.

[Tarheel_Dem]

29. Inconvenient truths.

[Cha]

30. Some don't want to acknowledge the reality.. it's too expedient and habitual to blame Obama and the

hell with the facts.

Notice how Bernie says "they have to put money in it too." in the Vid. If you don't have time to see that.. I've put it into quotes in the post. That kinda blows their.. "Bernie and Elizabeth aren't funding Obama's War" headline and meme. Bernie obviously wants other countries to put in Money for the Airstrikes against ISIS, too.. Oooops.

Tarheell

[Hekate]

37. Great post. Best of thread.

Mahalo nui, Cha.

[Cha]

38. Thank you, Hekate~ Just trying to get some facts of life and reality in there to counteract

the propaganda.. " ..starting a war". ..yeah right.

[Maven]

43. SANDERS AND WARREN VOTED AGAINST FUNDING FOR SYRIA

Please stop posting this drivel in every thread in an effort to misrepresent their position.

They have been consistent in their support for INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION to address this issue, not a unilateral bombing campaign, land war or arming Syrian Rebels.

[Cha]

46. Carter: "I think we need to attack isis" Bernie: "While I support President Obama’s decision to use

"In a statement, Sen. Sanders said, “The United States is not the only country on Earth with an air force. While I support President Obama’s decision to use airstrikes to protect the lives of thousands of innocent people of the Yazidi minority, the U.S. should not have to act alone militarily in this crisis. ISIS is a danger to the entire region and to the world. The international community must work with the U.S.”

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/08/13/sounding-presidential-candidate-bernie-sanders-u-s-act-iraq.html



Leyla @MiamiLib
Follow
The French Did For President Obama What They Refused To Do For Bush http://nydn.us/1tz28Oy
#p2 #tcot #uniteblue #teaparty #gop #lnyhbt
8:43 AM - 23 Sep 2014
Au revoir, ISIS fighters: French jets kill dozens of jihadists,...
The French did for President Obama on Friday what they refused to do for his predecessor — they joined the fight in Iraq.
New York Daily News @NYDailyNews

72 Retweets 20 favorites

http://theobamadiary.com/2014/09/23/a-tweet-or-two-125/

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. Does her "foreign policy" creds include her vote and support for Bush's war?

Or, were they to build up her Badasss creds?

[whatchamacallit]

21. This has got to be a joke

right?

[Cha]

26. Aloha, Hekate.. good to see you around these parts.. although,

I am not thinking "Hillary-2016" at all.

Things can change, of course.. anyway I'll see how I feel in 2016. Right now it's all about 2014 Midterms and getting President Obama some more Dems who can hopefully help him and our country to move forward.

[Hekate]

32. Agreed on that, Cha. Mahalo.

My ballot's not filled in for 2016 yet, either.

I should know better than to look for a reasoned discussion in GD by this time anyway.... Too much reflexive hatred aimed at Dems.

[Cha]

34. This is what you were feeling and you went with it.. I respect

that because I respect you.

[underthematrix]

27. LOL!!

[Tarheel_Dem]

28. I think the country will have swung back to a serious foreign policy agenda by the time 2016....

gets underway. The world's on fire, and as much as we say we don't want to be involved, Americans don't like being seen as uncertain when it comes to foreign policy. A few months ago, the country was anti-interventionist, and all it took was some sadistic assholes killing a couple of our own to bring out the hawk in the American public. Go figure.

[mazzarro]

31. Who retained Victoria Nuland at the State Department?

Was Nuland not a GWBush holdover? Does Hilliary's "foreign policy" creds include the decision to keep Nuland and other holdovers at the State and other departs where they will continue their support for Bush's policies?

[msanthrope]

45. She's career foreign service. You might want to learn what that means before you

opine on "holdovers."

[cali]

33. I am far more concerned about the crumbling middle class, the shredding of the social

safety net, education, infrastructure and ever encroaching corporate influence and control over the political system than I am about Putin or ISIS.

Hillary is your fantasy. she's more like my nightmare.

[djean111]

35. Yes. And we give away these things in increments, while the sabers rattle.

My nightmare too.

[Hekate]

36. And yet...

You are not the only one who misses my point. My question, explicitly stated, is regarding the warmongers manifesting themselves beyond our borders and has nothing to do with Hillary being my "fantasy."

My issue is that whether I want it to be so or not, it is so. What I want more than anything in the world is for my government to behave rationally, compassionately, and Constitutionally on the things I care most about, which are exactly what you named.

What I see happening in real life is that not only are the GOP and other RW elements continuing to make good on their oath to oppose everything Obama stands for regardless of who it hurts, but that forces beyond our borders are actively doing everything in their power to suck us into the vortex of violence that Obama has done what he can to extract us from. In the Mideast this is the legacy of Bush-Cheney, lest we forget, and like Frankenstein's monster now has a life of its own. Putin's aggression is another matter that must be dealt with. China is casting greedy and challenging eyes at a variety of Pacific islands, in case you are not aware of that.

I don't see how this is the fault of Obama, but he will have to do something about all of it -- and so will whoever we elect in 2016. Diplomacy may very likely not be enough. It will divert attention and funds from domestic issues.

Here at DU the two most popular non-candidates for 2016 are Warren and Sanders. They won't win a national election, which is why I call them the Fantasy Team. However here they are so popular that others need not apply, or so it seems. Hillary only gets mentioned so she can be bashed, but oddly enough the favorite knock on her is that she is a hawk. I think we're heading for more war (pushed from outside, never mind Mad McCain) than we can even imagine, and I seriously wonder who we've got on the Democratic side who can step up to that challenge. The so-called hawk?

It's been on my mind. Probably I should have waited another month and a half before posting the OP, but I doubt the response would have differed much. There is a level of Clinton-hatred here at DU that rivals that of the RW poison that has been leveled at both Hillary and Bill for over 20 years. It's kind of pathetic -- I used to be able to come here for actual discussions, but never mind.

[cali]

39. No, I don't think I did miss your point.

President Obama has in many ways, followed a corporate template. Hillary, I believe would do so even more, and the corporate template is thoroughly entwined with all manner of things that run contrary to the issues you think important.

I don't expect government to act compassionately or rationally as long as corporate influence and control are so prevalent.

I don't think Bernie can win a national election and Warren isn't running. I hope Bernie runs- as a democrat- to broaden the discussion on issues. I hope someone other than hillary runs who is viable. We'll see.

I think Hillary is on the wrong side of too many issues to earn my vote. I also think that she keeps doing stuff that leads to the antipathy so many here have for her. Not to mention her history- and I'm not just referring to her vote on the IWR.

I also think that though she may well get the nomination, it won't be a stroll.

[Erose999]

44. Agree 1000%. Iraq is no longer our circus and ISIS are not our monkies. I'm much more concerned

about income inequality, privacy and civil liberties, education policy, climate change, and protecting the safety net.

Hillary is my dead last choice out of the 2016 Democratic contenders.

[Scuba]

41. Pro war, pro Wall Street, pro TPP, pro Keystone XL. I'll take the "fantasy team", thanks.

[GeorgeGist]

42. Does your husband think Hillary and Bill ...

Will join Putin if She is not elected?